Guantanamo hunger strikers [Archive] - THE WRITERS FORUM

robJ

10-21-2005, 08:12 PM

i saw a quick headline on a msnbc clicker, and that was the end of that. Till i came across this link.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/gtmo_h...ube_torture.htm (http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/gtmo_hunger_strike_feeding_tube_torture.htm)

Guantanamo hunger strikers say feeding tubes employed as torture

AP | October 20 2005

Prisoners on hunger strike at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reported troops force-fed them with dirty feeding tubes that have been violently inserted and withdrawn as punishment, said declassified notes released Wednesday by defence lawyers.

The repeated removal and insertion of the tubes has caused striking prisoners to vomit blood and experience intense pain they have equated with torture, the lawyers reported to a U.S. federal judge after visiting their clients at the base in eastern Cuba.

Prisoners said they were taunted by troops who said the treatment was intended to persuade them to end the hunger strike that began Aug. 9, the lawyers wrote in affidavits filed as part of a lawsuit in federal court in Washington seeking greater access to prisoners at the high-security jail for terror suspects.

Lt.-Col. Jeremy Martin, a military spokesman for the Guantanamo detention centre, said all detainees in the hunger strike are closely monitored by medical personnel and mistreatment is not tolerated, though he did not know the specific procedures for handling the feeding tubes.

"Detainees...are treated humanely," Martin said.

"Claims to the contrary are wholly inaccurate and blatantly misrepresent the excellent work being done here by honourable military and civilian professionals."

Guantanamo officials have said this latest hunger strike began with 76 detainees protesting against their confinement. Defence lawyers have cited other reasons as well, including complaints about food and water, alleged abuse by guards and interrogators and their desire to either face trial or be released.

Yousef al Shehri, 21, of Saudi Arabia, told his lawyers guards removed a nasal feeding tube from one prisoner and reinserted it into another without cleaning it first.

"These large tubes...were viewed by the detainees as objects of torture," lawyer Julia Tarver, whose firm represents 10 Saudi detainees, said in an affidavit.

"They were forcibly shoved up the detainees' noses and down into their stomachs."

At Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. military holds about 500 detainees suspected of terrorist activities. Martin said 25 detainees are on hunger strike, including 22 who are being force-fed.

The number participating in the strike reached a high of 131 in mid-September when detainees refused meals to commemorate the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States, Martin said.

Most detainees participating in the hunger strike are not confined to hospital beds and are permitted to exercise, take showers, send and receive mail, visit the detainee library and practise their religion, he said.

Defence lawyers who have visited the prison in recent weeks said their clients have lost substantial weight, appeared listless and depressed - and have insisted they will maintain the protest until conditions improve or they are released. A judge has not yet ruled on their request for increased access to the detainees and their medical records.

Notes of meetings between lawyers and their clients at the detention centr eare classified until they have been reviewed by the military and cleared for release.

Joshua Colangelo-Ryan, a lawyer for six men from Bahrain, said one of his clients, Isa al Murbati, has lost about 50 pounds as a result of the hunger strike.

"There's nothing in my mind that he intends to stop the hunger strike," said Colangelo-Ryan, who returned from Guantanamo on Monday.

Tarver, who returned from the base Oct. 2, said two of her clients were being force-fed and unable to walk.

"It's quite a drastic situation," she said.

.................................................. ...
I'm sure theres more on a google search

KING BLING

10-22-2005, 09:35 AM

The best part is this...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...07/ixworld.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/07/wus207.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/07/ixworld.html)

The Bush administration pledged yesterday to veto legislation banning the torture of prisoners by US troops after an overwhelming and almost unprecedented revolt by loyalist congressmen.

The mutiny was the latest setback for an administration facing an increasingly independent and bloody-minded legislature. But it also marked a key moment in Congress's campaign to curtail the huge powers it has granted the White House since 2001 in its war against terrorism.

The late-night Senate vote saw the measure forbidding torture passed by 90 to nine, with most Republicans backing the measure. Most senators said the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal and similar allegations at the Guantanamo Bay prison rendered the result a foregone conclusion.

The administration's extraordinary isolation was underlined when the Senate Republican majority leader, Bill Frist, supported the amendment.

The man behind the legislation, Republican Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner in Vietnam, said the move was backed by American soldiers. His amendment would prohibit the "cruel, inhumane or degrading" treatment of prisoners in the custody of America's defence department.

The vote was one of the largest and best supported congressional revolts during President George W Bush's five years in office and shocked the White House.

"We have put out a Statement of Administration Policy saying that his advisers would recommend that he vetoes it if it contains such language," White House spokesman Scott McClellan warned yesterday.

The administration said Congress was attempting to tie its hands in the war against terrorism.

The veto would be Mr Bush's first use of his most extreme legislative option. But senators pointed out that a presidential veto can be overturned by a two-thirds majority in both houses.

For now the amendment's fate depends on negotiations between the Senate and the lower chamber, the House of Representatives, which is more loyal to the administration.

But senators said they were confident that most of the language would survive and that the issue could pose an extremely awkward dilemma for the president.

The amendment was attached to the $440 billion (£247 billion) defence spending bill and if Mr Bush vetoes the amendment, he would have to veto the entire bill.

That would leave America's armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan short of cash as early as the middle of next month.

KaBar2

10-30-2005, 08:07 AM

Well, I guess the Guantanamo prisoners better fucking EAT, like they have been instructed to do. Feeding tubes through the nose and down the esophagus are not the worst alternative, believe me. A long time ago, they fed people through tubes inserted RECTALLY up through the colon into the small intestine if the patient has suffered extreme damage to the face/esophagus/epiglottis and could not swallow.

Nowadays they usually go with a percutaneous endoscopic gastrostomy (PEG) tube, which is inserted surgically, through the mouth and down the esophagus and into the stomach, and pulled through a small surgical wound with the use of an endoscope. The patient then has a permenant feeding tube protruding through the side of the abdominal wall which need not be removed. Of course, in the case of the Guantanamo prisoners, once it was put in, they would have to be kept in four-point restraints to keep them from trying to remove it all the time. That would really suck. I can't see them going to all that trouble unless it was a high-ranking official or someone who had information they REALLY wanted badly.

If I was being held in Guantanamo, I'd do as I was told. Shit can always get worse, always.

These guys are probably being placed in four-point restraints to keep them from fucking with the nasogastric tube, then fed liquid nutrition. The tube is probably then removed and after an hour or two (once the enteral nutrition is digested) then the prisoner is released from restraints. This is, more or less, how severely nutritionally deficient anorexic and bulimic patients are fed if they cannot eat normally enough to keep from dying. It's very unpleasant for the patients, but what the fuck. EAT, and nobody will have to force-feed you.

If the patient is really weak, they might resort to parenteral nutrition (IV drip) to get them strong enough to put in a PEG tube.

Of course, the easiest thing would just be for them to tell the S-2 what they want to know, then Abdul could go home, and back to herding goats or whatever he was doing in Iraq before he was taken prisoner.

The problem with the Gitmo prisoners is that they lack imagination. They just have no idea how much more fucked up things can get.

U.S. Marine Corps brig guards are too humane to allow prisoners to starve themselves to death. They are very patient, and will be glad to force-feed Iraqi prisoners for YEARS to keep them alive so that they can one day return safely to their homes and families. Semper Fi, Abdul. And bon appetite.

robJ

10-30-2005, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by KaBar2@Oct 30 2005, 04:07 AM
Well, I guess the Guantanamo prisoners better fucking EAT, like they have been instructed to do. Feeding tubes through the nose and down the esophagus are not the worst alternative, believe me. A long time ago, they fed people through tubes inserted RECTALLY up through the colon into the small intestine if the patient has suffered extreme damage to the face/esophagus/epiglottis and could not swallow.

Quoted post

If they want to starve to death, let them.

SF1

10-30-2005, 05:10 PM

Kabar you're an evil fuck.

John Birch

10-30-2005, 05:35 PM

I think kabar is one of those right-wing wierdos who talks tough about war and militarism, but never been or ever knew anyone who was in the service. the closest he ever got to combat was when he walked by the army recruiting center next to the local quiznos, which he drove 2 blocks to in his SUV...

villain

10-30-2005, 06:02 PM

What many people don't realize is that as many as 90% of those prisoners are there purely by circumstance when the streets were swept after an incident.

dumy

10-30-2005, 08:06 PM

^^yeah Villian it's a horrible situation, one without much structure or accountability and situations and misteps like this just prove that yes, unless someone does something now, things will get much worse before they get better..

Biggus Dickus

10-30-2005, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by John Birch@Oct 30 2005, 12:35 PM
I think kabar is one of those right-wing wierdos who talks tough about war and militarism, but never been or ever knew anyone who was in the service. the closest he ever got to combat was when he walked by the army recruiting center next to the local quiznos, which he drove 2 blocks to in his SUV...
Quoted post

Kabar is a former anarchist liberal trainhopper / hobo turned hitler youth republican late in life. I'm pretty sure he hasn't been in the military.

SF1

10-30-2005, 10:59 PM

Kabar is a fraud. He's just some rightwing douchebag that comes on here with his phony story of how he was this "anarchist/Hippie/hobo/protester" who got straightened out by the Marines. And tries to convert kids into beleiving his fascist dickhead propoganda.
I can't beleive there are people on here naive enough to fall for it.
fuck Kabar.

courtorder

10-31-2005, 12:15 AM

chea////

KaBar2

10-31-2005, 08:15 AM

LOL. SF1 you are just too much fun on the internet, no shit. "An evil fuck." LOL LOL LOL. Guy you just have no idea how horrible people can be to one another, really. And whenever I try to explain it to you, you go off on a tangent about how I'm a fraud, etc. The part you don't like is that I'm NOT a fraud, and you don't like the truth, apparently.

I am not going to recite my bona fides any more on here. Nobody else has to, so fuck it, I won't either. I've posted it all before, if anybody cares to know, go fucking look it up.

They are not going to let any important intelligence assets in Gitmo kill themselves. THEY KNOW INFORMATION THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT INTENDS TO GET OUT OF THEM. And they will either tell the S-2 what they want to know, or life will really begin to suck. Horrible medical ways to feed people so that they cannot starve themselves are just the start.

Obviously, if the detainee is in four-point restraints with a PEG tube through his abdominal wall, he can't get up to piss or take a dump. So that means he's got to have a rubber Foley catheter up his penis into his bladder, with the balloon inflated with sterile water, attached to a urine collection bag. I've inserted many of them, in ten years as a nurse, in surgical patients, people that are paralyzed, women about to give birth and so on. Properly done, it's uncomfortable, but not unbearable. The thought of it is pretty awful though, and I'll bet the Gitmo prisoners would not care for it one bit.

The bowel elimination thing is usually handled with a type of adult diaper called "Chuks" or a bedpan, depending on the situation, but if somebody has elimination problems sometimes they wind up with a colonostomy--their large intestine is attached directly to the outside and their shit collects in a plastic bag glued over the stoma (hole) with a sponge-rubber ring. Now, you talk about life being fucked up? Living with a colonostomy has to be just about as bad as it gets, outside of being paralyzed or a burn patient.

I tell you the truth, before I would submit to any of this shit, I would TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO KNOW.

Wouldn't you? I sure as fuck would.

And John Birch--you're wrong, I served a tour in the Marines in an infantry battalion, so nyaah, nyaah, nyaah. Then I served a year in a National Guard tank battalion (tanks are fun to drive and the guns are fun to shoot, but in actual war, they suck because they are so vulnerable.) And then I served about six or seven years in the Texas militia, where we actually trained harder than I did in the Marines, and did stuff that was a shitload more interesting. The regular armed forces is boring as hell, although I did enjoy armorer's school and working in a battalion armory for three years.

People keep saying things to me on here like "Oooh, you're so old, why are you even on a grafitti web site anyway?" It's because I enjoy baiting all the whiners so much. That, and corresponding with the guys on here who enjoy learning new shit. And for those of you who don't, "Oh well." I guess you'll find some other thread and some other poster that you like better, eventually. In the meantime, 12 oz. is plenty entertaining. Maybe one in twenty-five or thirty 12 oz.ers cares to know what I care to teach. I stick around for them. I try not to flame anybody or resort to ad hominem attacks, I try not to use bad language too often, and I state my opinions, just like everybody else on here. What the heck is so wrong with that? I don't agree with lots of shit on here, but I only bitch about it about every fifteen minutes or so.

POIESIS

10-31-2005, 05:55 PM

yea, shit...all they need to do is cooperate. it doesn't matter that the authority is completely illegitimate. just bend over and deal with it, then, like every fairy tale, you'll get that happy ending we told you you'd get. basically.

KaBar2

10-31-2005, 06:40 PM

Poeisis, you clearly don't understand the situation, guy. Thay WILL TALK. The only question is, when? So they can spend years in a dog cage getting force fed with a tube, or they can tell the CIA what it wants to know. You guys seem very upset by the fact that they are being harshly treated and relentlessly interrogated. Believe me when I tell you---this is the "humane" version of interrogation. All they would have to do is turn the regular line company Marines loose on the prisoners and things would get far, far worse, without any prompting whatsoever from the CIA and military intelligence handlers.

The only reason they are being treated this well is that the authorities higher up in the chain of command insist that they be handled according to the regulations.

I was subjected to much worse treatment in Escape and Evasion school than these terrorist pricks are receiving. These guys are receiving no electric shock, no beatings, no deprivation of food or water, no sleep deprivation, no being doused in water 24-7, no "water treatment." No genuine torture of any kind. I'm willing to bet cash money that the brig guards are being as professional and restrained as they can manage under the circumstances.

Under genuine torture, EVERYBODY TALKS. Everybody. The very fact that these guys are still holding out proves that they are not being tortured.

I also believe that the facility at Camp X-ray is a "Potemkin village." It's the detention facility that the press is told about and everybody focuses on. Somewhere else in the world (probably Egypt) there are other (or probably several, in different countries), genuine interrogation facilities where the real bad boys are sent, that is run by the CIA or some other intelligence organization. The CIA has a reputation far in excess of any they've earned. The ones I have met were just kind of so-so impressive. I met two guys in 1976 whom I thought were either FBI or CIA, in armorer's school. They had the demeanor of officers, they did not associate with the enlisted troops, and of whom my armorer student buddy the SEAL once said "They're spooks, gotta be." They had the civilian rank of GS-12, which is the same as a Marine Corps captain. They were kind of snotty (like I said, "officers") but not exactly gifted in the weapons repair arena. Their civilian haircuts stood out like a sore thumb in a school full of soldiers, Marines and Navy SEALS.

There were also two CIA guys involved in surveilling the IWW Fast Food Workers organizing drive in State College, PA in about 1972 or so. They sent a female former Sorbonne student into the organizing group to infiltrate, but she ratted them out to her boyfriend the Wobbly, and the IWW turned the tables on the CIA, and we started watching them watch us. The whole organizing attempt had an air of amateurish futility until the CIA showed up. Word that they were there spread quickly and energized the Wobblies. It was like "Wow! If the CIA thinks this is important enough to infiltrate, we must be on the right track!" The IWW still got defeated in the elections, but they fought the good fight. Everybody was amazed to have their Big Brother fantasies made flesh and blood, and everybody wanted to go help "watch the watchers." The Sorbonne infiltrator, BTW, was a gorgeous chick who wound up having a breakdown and going to a psychicatric hospital.

What was this about? I forget.

POIESIS

10-31-2005, 08:19 PM

well, 'guy', your arguments always hinge on the loosey-goosey notion that everyone in iraq that lifts a finger of opposition, or in detention, MUST be a terrorist, or that the US military, regardless of the tonnage of facts supporting the opposite, is legal and righteous to do whatever the talking heads say is okay. that's killer.
i don't really see the grand vision there is in torturing, detaining and generally depriving people of basic rights when absolutely squat has been proven/disproven about their status. jose padilla, a US citizen, has now been detained, without any charges for 3 and a half years now. so, your argument would be, just untie the hands and let the torture run free, then we'll see some charges?

Gunm

10-31-2005, 11:34 PM

KaBar, you are so on point. A lot of these younger guys rely on their internet spook web rings and UC Berkeley liberal rags for all their information (See SF1)

Your calm, collected insight is a welcome break from the constant litany of "Fuck Bush" "Down with the U.S. Government" and other baseless arguements born of "Young Urban Activist Weekly"

....do the crime, do the time

POIESIS

11-01-2005, 02:26 AM

'do the crime do the time'? gitmo detainees are suspects. it's not a 'baseless' claim..until there are charges laid and they are put before a US court of law, they are not guilty of a damn thing, no matter how much you guys wish they were. torturing them really keeps the US on the moral high ground it works so hard to maintain. i guess the pentagon needs to buck up and send down a few hundred copies of kubark so shit can start getting sorted.
btw, nice lapdance.

SF1

11-01-2005, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by KaBar2@Oct 31 2005, 07:40 PM
Poeisis, you clearly don't understand the situation, guy. Thay WILL TALK. The only question is, when? So they can spend years in a dog cage getting force fed with a tube, or they can tell the CIA what it wants to know. Quoted post

Just out of curiosity fuck wad.--->

You claim to be a Vietnam vet, what is your position on the NVA/VietCongs treatment of our soldiers that were POW?

KaBar2

11-01-2005, 08:17 AM

SF1, would you be so kind as to show me the post where I claimed to be a Vietnam vet? I have never claimed any such thing.

I was a Vietnam War PROTESTOR, and I hated the war in Vietnam. During the Vietnam War I spent years of my life travelling from demonstration to demonstration. I got tear gassed a few times, and roughed up by the cops a couple of times and had a couple of punch-ups with the Klan. It didn't seem like we were getting anything accomplished at the time (the government was not responding) but after the U.S. role in Vietnam drew to a close, I became increasingly uncomfortable with my stance on Vietnam.

I probably have an FBI file as thick as a phone book. Maybe more than one.

I had serious doubts that the Marines would take me, but they were so hard up for recruits in 1976, they were taking everybody--sick, lame and lazy; blind, crippled and crazy. I did notice that when I got to Boot Camp at San Diego that the government had thoughtfully provided me with a "best friend" in my platoon who was curiously interested in anarchist politics. I truly liked the guy. His "name" was Peter Ainsworth, and he was almost certainly an agent of either the Defense Intelligence Agency or the Naval Intelligence Service. He knew a tremendous amount about the Marine Corps, and told me his father was a Drill Instructor, which I believed for about a tenth of a microsecond. At graduation, his family did not attend. This would be ABSOLUTELY UNHEARD OF within the U.S. Marine Corps. Had his father actually been a Marine, he would have attended his son's Boot Camp graduation even if he had to crawl there naked through ten miles of razor wire.

My buddy Ainsworth was a plant. But I still liked the guy, and he was a damned good Marine. Can you imagine going to Boot Camp TWICE just to keep tabs on some anarchist wack job? No fuckin' way, Jose'. Not me. National Security or not, I still wouldn't do it. Well, I might do it, but I would bitch to high heaven, LOL.

I enlisted in October of 1976 and served in the Marine Reserves from Feb 1977 until July of 1978. I then "augumented" from the Marine Reserves to active duty for a three-year enlistment, from July 1978 until July 1981, well after the Vietnam War was long over. I was on Okinawa with the Third Marine Division when Ronald Reagan took office, at the end of the 444 days of captivity for the Marine Security detail and male Embassy staff in Tehran, Iran. It looked as though we were about to be launched into Iran ( my battalion was the Primary Air Contingency Battalion for the western Pacific at that time) but due to Lt. Col. Oliver North's clever little arrangement with the Iranians, it proved to be unnecessary. Never before had the Marine Corps slogan, "The Few, The Proud, the Dead on the Beach..." seemed so appropriate. We all heaved a big sigh of relief and went out to Kin Ville to get drunk and flirt with Filipina hookers.

The saying goes "They also serve who only stand and wait." Well, given the choice between getting shot to pieces at the Tehran Airport or "standing and waiting" in an Okinawa whorehouse, I choose Sunny Japan. Although some of my fellow Marines expressed displeasure at the order to stand down, I was not at all unhappy.

I learned a lot in the Marines. I am proud to have served. I am not in the slightest bit disappointed that I was not sent anywhere to kill people, but if I had been sent, this former conscientious objector, former member of the War Resister's League, former anarchist war protestor would have gone and done his duty. The world is filled with people that would kill Americans without so much as a thought. We live the life we live mainly because somewhere out there tonight, there are U.S. soldiers guarding us. Probably guarding us as they peruse the latest issue of Penthouse or Hustler, but I bet the kid's rifle is clean.

If you can't understand that, then you can't. So be it. But I understand, even if you choose not to.

I still have mixed emotions about the Vietnam War, but very few about my service in the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps is a hard way to make a living. It's lonely, and stressful, and doesn't pay well. But it's one of those life experiences that despite how fucked up it was, I'm still glad I did it.

I have a neighbor who was wounded during the battle of Khe Sanh, outside the wire on a ground patrol. He was a nineteen-year-old Marine lance corporal in a rifle platoon. He got hit in the stomach by a 7.62x39mm bullet from an AK47. Many of his platoon were either killed or captured with him. The Vietnamese hog-tied him to a long bamboo pole and carried him into captivity. Vietnamese doctors operated on him in an open-air hospital. He was nursed back to health by his fellow POWs. He was tortured for information, but only for a few months, because of his low rank. Remarkably, he does not hate Vietnamese, but he does hate Communists. He is one of the friendliest, kindest guys I know. He spent six years in filthy, stinking, North Vietnamese prisons before he was repatriated. His high-school sweetheart waited SEVEN YEARS for him to come home, many of those years without any word, without even a letter, not knowing if he was dead or alive, only knowing that he was listed as WIA. They married after he got home and are still married today. He is a liberal Republican and a Roman Catholic.

Once when we were talking about it, I told him that I was a anti-war protestor during Vietnam, and asked him if that was a problem. He said, "No, not at all. We both did what we thought was right. It didn't work out all that well for either of us."

SF1

11-01-2005, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by SF1+Nov 1 2005, 05:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF1 - Nov 1 2005, 05:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

You claim to be a (former Marine) what is your position on the NVA/VietCongs treatment of our soldiers that were POW?
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

!@#$%

11-01-2005, 07:44 PM

sure they will talk

but will any of what they say be true or even relevant to what we are trying to deal with?

NO

we are simply creating more terrorists
WHILE LOWERING OURSELVES TO THEIR LEVEL

for every innocent family that was destroyed by the u.s.' blunt sweep through afghanistan, we have a new terrorist

!@#$%

11-01-2005, 07:46 PM

i seriously marvel at your naivete and ignorance

you really think any of those dudes are still holding worthwhile info?
dude, if your idiotic opinions didn't make me laugh by so perfectly embodying what is wrong with this country, i'd be crying

you and everything you support will bring your sick ideals home to roost
the only question is when..right?

Dawood

11-02-2005, 02:11 AM

It's really amazing, "the war on terrorism" As they call it. Most americans recognise it is wrong on one level or another.
Even the ones who support and defend the war and its motives eventually will admit it is just another economic power move that they think is necessary to stay on top. Lets just all admit that the American government goes to war to secure it's economic and strategic positioning in the world and thats pretty much the long and short of it. I mean, Yeah there's a fine tuned media machine designed to divert your attention away from all that...... oh, and plenty of cool gadgets, grown up toys and a starbucks in every shopping center so the majority of the people will just sing themselves to sleep , humming their favorite tune in their new ipod sipping on a caramel frappaccino behind the wheel of their spinny rim custom thingamajigganutt hollerin out the window at shorty wop , like hootie hoo! , dude. So go ahead , finance away, complain about the war , complain about the terrorists, complain ,complain, and still do nothing about it.

-Youre still a slave to economics, at sonic speeds of a comet watch em suck up all the dollars while you vacuum up the vomit. - an anonymous poet named dawood

POIESIS

11-02-2005, 03:34 AM

i'm all for straight talk.

KaBar2

11-02-2005, 07:01 AM

Me too. Here's what I think. Saddam Hussein was a useful pawn when the U.S. was supporting him in his eight-year war against Iran. When we no longer needed him, he was considerably less useful.

He may have been suckered into attacking Kuwait, which used to be an Iraqi province. Our ambassador apparently was told to give him the impression that if he attacked Kuwait, it was a-okay with us. We invaded Kuwait, liberated the place, and allowed the Saudis to drive through the city first like conquering heroes when they actually did very little fighting. Then we chased the Iraqis back into Iraq and bombed the ever-loving crap out of them, knocking out their radar and eliminating 95% of their air force and air defense capabilities. Then we rolled up their static defenses, teacupping scores (if not hundreds) of third-rate Russian T-72 tanks. Mainly for bullshit geopolitical nonsense reasons, Bush ordered Schwartzkopf to halt the invasion before we got to Baghdad. This was a serious error, but we did it to please our new Muslim pals, who were pissed to see the U.S. military crush the shit out of the Arab world's most powerful, most loudmouthed dictator's forces in less than 100 hours. Bush should have listened to Schwartzkopf and FLATTENED Baghdad. Then, with Saddam hanging on by a thread, we pack up all our shit and go home. Poof. Gone. Just like that.

Ten years later, we get to do the whole thing over again. Again, Iraq lasts about as long as an ice cream cone on a summer day. Only this time, we unseat the government and let the people go nuts for a couple of weeks.

There is some crazy shit going on in Iraq. For instance, why is it that the U.S. forces don't blow up every stash of military ordnance that they come across? Why is it that the Iraqi government has such a difficult time dealing with routine matters like getting the power running reliably, or providing clean water to Iraqi cities and towns? I think it has to do with the level of corruption and the unbelieveable degree of "Look out for Number 1" that goes on there.

I think we need about three times as many troops there as we have at present. The neo-cons really screwed up on this particular point. It's like politicians cannot seem to remember the lesson from the last war: LET THE COMMANDERS ON THE GROUND CALL THE SHOTS. The White House doesn't know dick about suppressing a guerrilla war in Iraq. They should leave it to the officers in charge.

Why is it that the forces that support a constitutional republic seem to have such a difficult time taking the war to the enemy? We should be using an overwhelming amount of force wherever we go, so that resisting is completely futile. We should be POURING money, jobs-creating investments, locally purchased food staples by the ton, medical care, schools, highway reconstruction, etc., etc., into all the quiet, peaceful provinces of Iraq. Why aren't we? I don't know.

POIESIS

11-02-2005, 08:03 AM

well, once again i disagree. we just have fundamentally different views on this shit, although i agree completely with your last sentence.
i personally think more troops in iraq would be a total dud move. the real
problem in iraq is the US occupation. that's the core of the problem for iraqi's and the region, AND americans. you can't
keep a military occupation going in iraq, it's never going to get better, either at
current levels(incidentally, i believe levels are the highest yet), or with an increase of troops. the reason is the type of culture in iraq, and the history of
western meddling in their country. westerners seem to think that maybe iraqi's don't know their own history acutely or somethin'...
we are not talking about some soft assed, couch potato westerners being occupied, we're
talking iraq, the place that went through a hellish war with iran, then got smoked
by the US, then got it's neck broken by sanctions, then got re-invaded and shit kicked as a laughably meek foe, illegally and based on deceit, whilst the occupying forces engaged in torture, called in airstrikes on villages of innocent
people 'by accident', used napalm, and has essentially turned iraq into a collapsed, failed state spiralling out of control at ever increasing momentum. whew, that was a long sentence.
more troops, death and destruction is going to bring the war right back to america. unfortunately the other option will leave iraq impoding into a full blown
death fest which may become a tornado across the region. what a great situation. i don't really have any idea what the hell is supposed to fix this monumentally fucked war...perhaps the occupying forces should pull back a bit and force the iraqi's to step up and take care of their shit while they have the chance.
some other iron-fisted goon will step up and become the new brutal dictator of iraq, but since democracy for iraq was a completely fraudulent war aim to begin with, it will be perfect, as long as western oil giants control the spigot.

KaBar2

11-02-2005, 09:11 AM

I do agree with the last bit about the spigot. The Oil companies are definately running it. Tonight on my way home from work, I stopped to buy gas at $2.59 a gallon, and a little over a half-tank cost me about $39.

They are shitting in the punch bowl, though. The time will come when people will just say "Fuck cars. From here on out, I ride a bicycle or the bus." I'm just about there right now.

POIESIS

11-02-2005, 06:18 PM

yep, bikes rule. i try to bike everywhere, and fortunately my city is
very bikable, which is nice.
the scary thing is i'm not so sure there is going to be a backlash.
around here the gas prices are equally atrocious, but it doesn't seem
to have made much of an impact on all the hummers and SUV's i see
everywhere. i can't fathom how you can own an SUV
and throw so much money into your tank every week. it's retarded.

!@#$%

11-02-2005, 06:29 PM

seriously though folks

didn't Pol Pot do the deed of teaching the universe that people will say anything (true or untrue) if they are tortured enough?

are we unable to learn from the mistakes of others?

after they closed the baltimore tunnels because of some fals info given by a detainee in europe a couple weeks ago, are idiots still clinging to the idea that prisoners are hodiing onto treasure troves of potential plots?
damn, now that's some alliteration for dat ass.

i can't wait until the oil runs out
i'm gonna have a party

Dawood

11-03-2005, 02:55 AM

Did you hear about the guy who is going on trial for selling a nuclear weapon that never existed. He was a middle man in a nuclear weapon smuggle being led on by a CIA agent that was telling him he could buy a nuclear missle (that of course didn't exist) Then , they eventually arrested him for conspiring to sell terrorists a nuclear missle (again, that never existed) Because he was dealing with the CIA , who had no missle. (did I mention there was no missle?)
Oh , well, torture em, maybe he knows some REAL missle men! Yes! Good idea, sarge.

serum

11-05-2005, 10:00 AM

1. you must answer according to my questions. dont turn them away.

2. dont try and hide the facts by making pretexts this and that, you are strictly prohibited to contest me.

3. dont be a fool for you are a chap who dare to thwart the revolution.

4. you must immediately answer my questions without wasting time to reflect.

5. dont tell me either about your immoralities or the essence of the revolution.

6.while getting lashes or electrification you must not cry at all.

7. do nothing sit still and wait for my orders keep quiet. when i ask you to do something you must do it right away without protesting.

8. dont make pretexts about kampucheakrom in order to hide your jaw of a traitor.

9. if you dont follow all the above rules you shall get many many lashes of electric wire.

10. if you dont obey any point of my regulations you shall get either ten lashes or five shocks of electric charge.

taken from the guantanamo prison wall, ehem i mean toul sleng phenom penn cambodia

its a very simple issue. thoughs with direct ties to terrorists, give them a trial and if found guilty, throw away the key, but give reduced sentences to thoughs who give up the goods. innocent people (who i have the feeling make up the majority of the prisoners) let them go and best give them a nice care package because if they didnt hate america before they certainly will now. how can you give information if you dont have any?!

recently the iraqi govt has passed a bill allowing old sadaam loyalists back into the army because it lacks mid level soldiers. how do we know that the people they have in cuba arent the same or lesser rank than those now back in the military? fuck im ashamed to be an american. we are the next generation of nazis. all hail bush.

KaBar2

11-05-2005, 06:58 PM

Glad to see you are catching on.

"Mobil Exxon, uber alles..."

guerillaeye

11-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by POIESIS@Nov 2 2005, 02:18 PM
yep, bikes rule. i try to bike everywhere, and fortunately my city is
very bikable, which is nice.
the scary thing is i'm not so sure there is going to be a backlash.
around here the gas prices are equally atrocious, but it doesn't seem
to have made much of an impact on all the hummers and SUV's i see
everywhere. i can't fathom how you can own an SUV
and throw so much money into your tank every week. it's retarded.
Quoted post

i miss tri-met.http://www.trimet.org/images/homepagepics/headerpic-max.jpg I used to ride the bus everywhere... now im in an area that doesnt even run past 6:30. fucking pathetic.

gasfacevictm

12-07-2005, 05:06 AM

fuck the war.
fuck guantanamo.
fuck the torture.
fuck the white noise and stripping.
fuck the blindfolds.
fuck the force feeding.
fuck the lack of due process.
fuck the news.
fuck the indeterminate holding of anyone.
fuck right and left wingers.
fuck this country.

believe it or not the crusades are happening right now under the guise of democracy.
killing is killing no matter what. and doing it in the name of country is no better than doing it in the name of god or allah or whoever the fuck is manipulating everyone participating in this war.
when they find osama they should string up bush for the same crimes.

less people have died in this war than did in RWANDA and nobody even cared about that shit.

KaBar2

12-11-2005, 04:08 PM

Gasfacevictim, you sound really, really furious at the U.S. government. If I proposed to you that you should join a ficticious resistance group to attack government facilities, but at the risk of winding up in Guantanamo getting interrogated, would you do it? Somehow I doubt it. The people getting captured, transported to Guantanamo (or other, more clandestine, CIA detention facilities) are extremely bad people. I read in the newspaper today that the government estimates that there are less than 10,000 terrorists in Iraq, but they are royally fucking things up for the TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION IRAQIS that want a normal, prosperous, democratically-elected government in a normal, peaceful country.

Senator Lieberman (Democrat) says we are winning. I hardly ever agree with Democrats, and Lieberman is usually majorly on my shit list, but in this case, I agree with his assertion that we are winning.

Of course, the reason the Senator supports the war in Iraq is because the war in Iraq is in Israel's best interests, but "whatever."

BURLAP

12-11-2005, 05:05 PM

how is this in 'israel's best interests'? can you elaborate?

SF1

12-11-2005, 05:59 PM

Western style "Democracy" is not a "normal" government or way of life in the middle east you fucking blowjob!

I hardly think the muslims in Iraq are glad we are there blowing up their country killing and maiming thousands of their freinds and familly members, destroying their infastructure in order to establish our version of what a government and infastructure should be. Get your head out of your ass and for once realize that these people live in a completely different world than us and have a COMPLETELY different mindset and culture than us, COMPLETELY different social values than us and it doesn't mean that they are wrong, just COMPLETELY different. You can't just go there and bomb them into submition, set up a puppet government, throw up abunch of Starbucks and McDonalds and expect them to just assimilate. That's like if the tables were turned and THEY were the super power and they came and bombed the shit out of us, invaded killing and maiming thousands of us, set up some Muslim government and had the BALLS to tell the world how happy we are to be liberated from our sinfull decadence and how anxious we are to worship Allah while our freinds, familly, and other countrymen are dead, maimed or in concentration camps being tortured for information that they may or may not even have! I know you, Kabar, would deffinately fit into the later because I don't see you just throwing in the towel and trading in your entire way of life to submit to Alah and some alien way of life. So how can you expect for them to do the same? Or even believe "Rummy" when he tells us how "gratefull" the Iraqi people are that we bombed them into obedience and how they can't wait to go to work at McDonalds???

Use your fucking head Kabar and realize that the entire world does not revolve around Americas greed and arrogance, and isn't just dieing to be like us.

SF1

12-11-2005, 06:05 PM

And here's a pre-emptive "go fuck yourself" to any spelling bee champ that feels the need to point out any misspelled words or typos.

gasfacevictm

12-14-2005, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by KaBar2@Dec 11 2005, 12:08 PM
Gasfacevictim, you sound really, really furious at the U.S. government. If I proposed to you that you should join a ficticious resistance group to attack government facilities, but at the risk of winding up in Guantanamo getting interrogated, would you do it? Somehow I doubt it. The people getting captured, transported to Guantanamo (or other, more clandestine, CIA detention facilities) are extremely bad people. I read in the newspaper today that the government estimates that there are less than 10,000 terrorists in Iraq, but they are royally fucking things up for the TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION IRAQIS that want a normal, prosperous, democratically-elected government in a normal, peaceful country.

Senator Lieberman (Democrat) says we are winning. I hardly ever agree with Democrats, and Lieberman is usually majorly on my shit list, but in this case, I agree with his assertion that we are winning.

Of course, the reason the Senator supports the war in Iraq is because the war in Iraq is in Israel's best interests, but "whatever."
Quoted post

1st of all don't act like you know what i would or would not do cuz. because you don't know me or my heart.

2nd-normal government? what does that mean? american form of governing been around for about 200 years. it's young.

3rd-i compared it to the crusades because thats what it is. let's march across the desert with our crosses and bibles (in this case it's flags and corporations) and convert the world because god or country told us that manifest destiny was our divine right. FUCK OUTTA HERE.

4th-rome fell and so will this country if it keeps watering down the earth with it's conformity. bush is no better than any of them fuckers over there. it's starting to remind me of how incredible new york was back in the day and now it's all clean and generic unless you roll into grimey ass parts of brooklyn. starbucks on every corner though. yeah, soon there will be no reason to travel at all. we can go to disney world and see the earth in a day.

5th-terrorists? i haven't seen shit happen here since 9/11 and although that was an awful event, it happened. wasn't the guy responsible supposed to be caught by now? nah, instead we'll distract you with celebrity news while we start a war with someone who had nothing at all to do with the towers falling down. OIL! OIL! OIL! gotta have more.

Gunm

12-14-2005, 10:59 PM

DOWN THE HATCH!

ha ha ha

KaBar2

12-15-2005, 06:39 AM

Burlap---

The largest and most credible threat to Israel before 1991 was Iran, then Iraq. Iran has come to terms with the Israelis, despite all their "nuke the Jews" rhetoric. The reason they are ramping up all the squawk is to lead Muslims to believe they not only hate Israel, but would never in a zillion years collaborate with them. Too late. They already have, some time ago. They established a crude working relationship with Israel when LT COL Ollie North brokered a deal with the Iranians in 1980 for Stinger anti-aircraft missles that we had originally sold to Israel. The Israelis got new stuff, fresh from the Stinger factory. The Iranians paid North cash on the barrelhead for the U.S.-nee-Israeli Stingers. North promptly took the cash to Egypt and bought AK47's, RPG's, tons of ammunition, grenades, mines, etc., which he then flew back to Honduras where he armed the Nicaraguan contras. The Iranians used the Stingers against Iraqi aircraft in the Iran-Iraq War.

After that, the number one threat against Israel was Iraq, despite the billions that Iraq squandered on the war with Iran. Israel bombed Saddam Hussein's nuclear power plant in an attack that was clearly an act of war. Essentially the message was "Saddam, if you even think about building an atomic weapon, we are going to blow your shit to smithereens."

Israeli embassy personnel danced on rooftops from joy watching the Twin Towers collapse on 9/11. Why? Because it meant that the U.S. was about to come crashing into the Middle East like a pissed off Kodiac bear, ripping a new asshole for everybody even remotely connected to the 9/11 attacks. We were already pissed at Saddam, and besides, the sorry little loudmouth was sitting on an ocean of petroleum. Conventional wisdom projected a "hit list." Iraq, Syria, Libya, then maybe Iran. We KO'ed Iraq in less than 100 hours. Ghaddafi shit his pants and immediately started trying to become pals with "the Great Satan." Syria, after raping Lebanon for twenty years, abruptly pulled out because of a few street demonstrations, and started talking about how it's trying to seal their border with Iraq and assist the War on Terrorism. Is the U.S. committed to the freedom of the Lebanese? Not so's you'd notice. But Lebanon is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Israel. Now the Iranians are really getting scared. So they start rattling their sabres, all the while trying to make under-the-table diplomatic contact with Israel, because they don't want the whole world to see that they are scared shitless.

The War on Iraq is really a "War to Defend Israeli Interests." Jewish Americans make up substantially less than 1% of the U.S. population, but they hold very significant numbers of positions in the U.S. government (especially in defense), U.S. banking, U.S. media and U.S. financial industry. American Jews do not dominate the elite class, but they significantly influence it, to the point of constituting the "swing vote." Israel has spent billions of dollars influencing the U.S. "powers that be" to be in Israel's corner when it really counts. American Jews are over 80% liberals, and they bankroll thousands of liberal causes with their donations. They insist on multiculturalism and ultra-liberal policies in every country but one: Israel. Palestinian-Israelis cannot own land, they cannot vote, and they cannot be officers above a certain rank in the Israeli Defense Forces. Certain neighborhoods (the poorest ones) are reserved for Palestinians. They cannot rent or buy property in Jewish areas. Israelis carry passports with their religion and ethnicity on them. The State of Israel does every possible thing it can think of to encourage the Palestinians to leave Israel and prevent them from returning. They want an Israel with absolutely nobody in it but JEWS. NOBODY ELSE. Not Christians, not Muslims, not Druse, nobody but Jews.

Here in the U.S., telling people "Merry Christmas" is becoming politically incorrect, and in Israel, Palestinians cannot even eat in a Jewish restaurant.

I do not object to the invasion of Iraq, and the deposing of Saddam Hussein. I do not object to the concept of invading Iraq to insure a supply of petroleum. I do not object to the inculcation of a democratic form of government into Iraqi culture. But I DO object to American soldiers dying so that Israel can set up and maintain a racist apartheid state. Next on our list should be invading Israel to secure democracy for non-Jews there. Of course, I'm being facetious, but bottom line, Israel is our ally only as long as it suits their interests. The very second it doesn't, we get another "U.S.S. Liberty" or another spy like Pollard (who just happens to be Jewish--just a coincidence) in the middle of the U.S. Navy strategic defense planning section.

Israel will stab us in the back whenever it suits them to do so. We don't owe them a fucking thing. They brag in the Knesset (Israeli parlaiment) how they "own" the U.S. government.

isor357

12-15-2005, 05:57 PM

israel has been more than willing in the past to do the dirty work. I dont see why we dont just let them run middle eastern affairs. Let them roll into where ever they want. Displace whom ever they please. If anything we should have a quiet agreement to support anything they do. Its all shit that our government probably wants anyways. We gave them the technology and the weapons. Might as well let them use it.

imported_Tesseract

12-15-2005, 11:20 PM

You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east. Hell, even now that the US is the only superpower and with these kind neighbours on your side you still cant control iraq. Another big truth is that Israel would be eaten up in miliseconds if the US didnt back them up so much. You all know the deal with Israel's Nuclear project to begin with.
I dont know if its important to start listing who's rubing who's back and who you would prefer to be left out since its just not happening. Its a cycle that could only work this way. The real issue here is to either akwnoledge the whole thing as something you approve or not. It comes as one package.

WhereEaglesDare

12-22-2005, 08:31 PM

^^^

if we wanted to, we could wipe that troublesome part of the world right off the map.

we should

gasfacevictm

12-22-2005, 09:09 PM

ha, if WE wanted to?
laughable.
you and i mean about as much to our government as they do.
plus, what the fuck would be the sense in that?

Stereotype V.001

12-22-2005, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 15 2005, 08:20 PM
You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east.
Quoted post

Thats pretty fucking funny. Turkey does little to nothing, and Israel is completely dependent on us. Once Ahmadinejad gets his nuclear program in order and hands it off to one of his crony "terrorist" organizations to strike one of our major cities the gloves will come off and we will revert to the WWII way of doing things. Germany had an insurgency of Hitler's "werewolves" after the war too, that targeted anyone who cooperated with the occupiers and often killed soldiers. We didn't allow the press to report on it, and killed (the Brits beheaded) anyone who was remotely involved. In three years, there was no insurgency. Don't fool yourself into thinking we won't do that again, or that dropping several megatons on a few countries is out of the question because of political correctness.

And its not the US army, its "military." The army is one of several branches.

Stereotype V.001

12-22-2005, 09:42 PM

Not to mention Afghanistan has been doing good, but maybe that isn't the middle east.

SF1

12-23-2005, 01:47 AM

So Stereotype, since your so gun-ho about what our country's doing to the Middle East, why aren't you there? Why don't you join the military and go to Iraq? Don't be a pussy. Put your ass where your mouth is.

CACashRefund

12-23-2005, 02:21 AM

its gung-ho

And in reference to Kabars post up there

there was this article dated sepetmeber 19 2001, that reports how israeli intelligence is pointing the finger toward iraq as behind the 9/11 attacks

LINK (http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.shtml)
Id like to think that Janes is a pretty reputable source.

KaBar2

12-23-2005, 06:45 AM

[quote=CACashRefund,Dec 23 2005, 03:21 AM]
its gung-ho

The term "gung-ho" is a Korean term that means "pulling together," or so I was told in the Marine Corps. After the Korean War, when the U.S. military was reorganizing, the Marine Corps began to change it's training doctrine and adopted a new idea that psychology could be applied to new recruits to create Marines that would never surrender, and who would "go guerrilla" if over-run, and continue to fight regardless of the odds.

During the Korean War, under extremely harsh winter weather conditions, dressed in summer uniforms, many Army soldiers and Marines surrendered because they ran out of food, had no winter clothing, and their weapons froze in the cold. After the war was over, the POW's returned and many had been "brainwashed" by the Communist North Koreans. Several thousand died in the POW camps from malnutrition, exposure and harsh treatment, including torture. The South Korean POWs who were captured fared a great deal better, and the main two reasons were racism (the white Marines were singled out for more brutal treatment) and the South Koreans' cultural attitude of mutual solidarity. Therefore, the philosophy of "gung-ho" was introduced into the Marine Corps about the same time that the U.S. Code of Conduct was introduced (1955.)

In Boot Camp, we were required to memorize it, and frequently were called upon to shout out articles of the Code of Conduct at the top of our voices.

Code of Conduct

Article I
"I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense." (This one has been altered to a more politically correct form: the version I learned was "I am an American fighting MAN. . .")

Article II
"I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist."

Article III
"If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others in escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy."

Article IV
"If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way."

Article V
"When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, serial number and date of birth. I will evade answering questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statement disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause."

Article VI
"I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles that made my country free. I will trust in God and the United States of America."

This creed may seem rather quaint to most of the people on this board, but the men and women serving in the armed forces take it dead seriously. The training was altered as well, to foster a greater degree of unit pride and solidarity, which already existed to a great degree in the Marine Corps anyway.

I don't know much about Turkey, but in a NATO training exercise in 1976, the Marine Reserves knocked their dicks in the dirt. Maybe the Turks we were up against were their third-line troops or something, I don't know. I was in Headquarters & Service Co., 1/23. The Turks jumped on Charlie Co., 1/23 on a hilltop one night. Charlie Co. was dug in, and the Turks "attacked" uphill. Because they did not have enough blank firing adaptors for their M14 rifles (AMERICAN rifles that we gave them, by the way) some of the Turks were shooting live rounds. (You can tell live rounds easily, they are much louder than blanks, plus, some of the rounds were tracers, and Charlie could see the tracers arcing uphill over their heads.) The Marine Reservists were very freaked out over the fact that the Turks were shooting live bullets, and one of the Marines was hit in the chest. When that happened, the shout went up "FIX BAYONETS!" and when the Turks arrived at the military crest of the hill, the Marines came swarming out of their fighting holes with their M16s with bayonets fixed, and entrenching tools (folding shovels), and met the attacking Turks head-on, hand-to-hand. Most of the Turks threw down their shit and ran, because the Marines were out for blood. Scores of Turkish M14 rifles were captured. About twenty M16A1's were completely destroyed in the fight: barrels bent, buttstocks and handguards shattered, "carrying handles" bent down to touch the top of the receiver. A bunch of Turks had to be hospitalized, as well as fifteen or twenty Marines. It was a big shit storm, but they hushed it up in the press, and to smooth ruffled Turkish feathers, the U.S. government made one of those "we deeply regret this unfortunate incident" apologies. After that, they kept the two forces strictly apart.

Don't under-rate the U.S. armed forces. All these piss-ant police actions require the U.S. forces to fight with one hand tied behind their back. If you want an idea of what's really what, check out the battle in Fallujah. They killed four U.S. mercenaries and defiled their corpses, and we came back and kicked the shit out of the entire city, with a kill ratio of about 100-to-1. I bet they don't do that shit again. We should have flattened the entire fucking place.

SF1

12-23-2005, 07:04 AM

Stereotype V.001

12-23-2005, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by SF1@Dec 22 2005, 10:47 PM
So Stereotype, since your so gun-ho about what our country's doing to the Middle East, why aren't you there? Why don't you join the military and go to Iraq? Don't be a pussy. Put your ass where your mouth is.
Quoted post

I am mad gun hoe kid! I tried to join the Marines but at MEPS the ghost of Chesty Puller cock slapped me and called me a pussy.

But a question for you, if you hate the current American government, oppose the war in Iraq, think you live in an oppressive police state ect ect, why are you not taking up arms against the government? Why not assist the noble freedom fighters in Iraq? And why do you choose to even live in a country you despise so much?

Me thinks the lad will not answereth directly this riddle of riddles!

SF1

12-23-2005, 05:01 PM

Because I was BORN here you fucking idiot. This is my country and I aint going anywhere. I don't hate my country I just hate the fucking morons that are running the government and morons like you that give Americans a bad name.

Why the fuck would I go to Iraq and fight for them? I'm not one of them.

imported_Tesseract

12-23-2005, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Dec 22 2005, 05:40 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Dec 22 2005, 05:40 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Tesseract@Dec 15 2005, 08:20 PM
You guys are really funny. Truth is that without Turkey and Israel The US army would not stand a single chance in occupying any country in the middle east.
Quoted post

Thats pretty fucking funny. Turkey does little to nothing, and Israel is completely dependent on us. Once Ahmadinejad gets his nuclear program in order and hands it off to one of his crony "terrorist" organizations to strike one of our major cities the gloves will come off and we will revert to the WWII way of doing things. Germany had an insurgency of Hitler's "werewolves" after the war too, that targeted anyone who cooperated with the occupiers and often killed soldiers. We didn't allow the press to report on it, and killed (the Brits beheaded) anyone who was remotely involved. In three years, there was no insurgency. Don't fool yourself into thinking we won't do that again, or that dropping several megatons on a few countries is out of the question because of political correctness.

And its not the US army, its "military." The army is one of several branches.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

If you're trying to convince me that you know what Turkey is doing for the states, you cant. Just because of my geographical position ans exposure to media way different than the american ones i'll trust my knowledge instead and just tell you that Turkey is extremely helpfull to the US agenda. If you had any clue on how much money the US feeds to Turkey MONTHLY you'd realise that aswell.
As far as israel depending on you, it takes two to tango.

Its interesting you bring ww2 in this, Has it ever occured to you that Bush's america could be the next big thing the rest of the world will rebel against?

Stereotype V.001

12-23-2005, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 23 2005, 02:04 PM

If you're trying to convince me that you know what Turkey is doing for the states, you cant. Just because of my geographical position ans exposure to media way different than the american ones i'll trust my knowledge instead and just tell you that Turkey is extremely helpfull to the US agenda. If you had any clue on how much money the US feeds to Turkey MONTHLY you'd realise that aswell.
As far as israel depending on you, it takes two to tango.

Its interesting you bring ww2 in this, Has it ever occured to you that Bush's america could be the next big thing the rest of the world will rebel against?
Quoted post

I do not rely on the mainstream American media for all of my news, and as far as the GWOT or whatever they are calling it Turkey does little (like most countries). You do not understand the current American armed forces' capabilities if you think we need assistance in any way. We successfully toppled and occupied Afghanistan, with less personell than there are police in Manhattan. Because of the bias most international media has, it would lead one to believe the current state of our military is equitable to the post-Vietnam days. Not the case.

I'm not arguing whats morally justified or if we should even be there, I'm just saying what you see in Iraq and elsewhere is the PC way of doing things and it may very well change.

Do you watch Al Jazeera alot?

imported_Tesseract

12-23-2005, 05:49 PM

Haha, al jazeera. Not at all, i'm european but i'm also in a country that has always been extremely tense with Turkey so i know alot about them and their military. Noone argues that the US army is powerfull but if you think that its so powerfull that it doesnt need assistance, you're just being silly, NATO was created exactly for that reason. In any way you have to realise that the current status only applies for a decade and half. While USSR was still in effect all these manouvres would be a huge pain in the ass for the US. Thats a fact that its inavoidable to change, its just history.

Furthermore. You're talking about PC because you live in the states. I know and you know that no war can be fought in a PC way and this one is exactly the same. History has its way of uncovering everything and again all the major attrocities will be revealed when nobody involved gives a fuck but it will still stigmatize america more. What is PC in the states could be outrageous someplace else so you're just talking on one countries internal way of sugarcoating the pill, nothing more than that.

shape1369

12-23-2005, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 23 2005, 12:49 PM
Haha, al jazeera. Not at all, i'm european but i'm also in a country that has always been extremely tense with Turkey so i know alot about them and their military. Noone argues that the US army is powerfull but if you think that its so powerfull that it doesnt need assistance, you're just being silly, NATO was created exactly for that reason. In any way you have to realise that the current status only applies for a decade and half. While USSR was still in effect all these manouvres would be a huge pain in the ass for the US. Thats a fact that its inavoidable to change, its just history.
Quoted post

Tesser is exactly right. Turkey has been a large force in the middlde east since before WWII. It has always been the interface between Western Governments and Middle Eastern ones. Back when the Ottoman Empire still ran things, it was considered one of the more tolerant cultures in the middle east. Long has it been the prototype for what we would call a modern or progressive islamic state. While recent events would say that they are shying more towards the fundamentalist side of things, that is because those in charge right now are a little bit more radical than previous leaders. When Turkey refused america the right to use its bases right before our attack on Iraq, it was one of the first times that Turkey has ever done anything like that.

There was a great article in a recent periodical from University of Chicago that talked about looking at Turkey's history as a means to effectively understand the correct methods for Western Countries to communicate and cooperate with middle eastern countries. Ill try and find it.

And yeah, Tesser would know about turkey. Are you in Greece, or Italy? Either way, not great friends with Turkey...

BURLAP

12-23-2005, 06:19 PM

the turk govt is slime, and the US keep it pally like that.
as for toasting afghanistan, big deal. when does the US not
pick on weak states, and furthermore, why would they?

imported_Tesseract

12-23-2005, 06:23 PM

Greece, F16 FIR violations which lead to virtual airfights from both sides over the aegean sea count to 100 monthly and about 2-4 dead pilots yearly. I guess we're on a small 'cold war' since forever. Turkey's current prime minister is focused on turkey entering the EU so he's trying to calm things down. It makes no difference though because the first thing one has to know about Turkey is that its run by the military generals and not the official goverment. The second thing one should know about turkey is that they might aswell be the best diplomats in the entire world.

shape1369

12-23-2005, 06:44 PM

Yeah. My grandfather is turkish and flew in the turkish airforce. When he was in his late twenties he came here through some sort of military exchange program and began teaching people how to fly here. He ended up at Flight Safety until he retired couple years ago. He has an apartment on one of the nicest beaches in Turkey, which I would love to use. It's unfortunate how fundamentalist they are becoming though. I would love to go there and see some of the beautiful places, but I am much less inclined to go knowing that things would be pretty charged over there. But thats off topic, back to the discussion at hand...

Stereotype V.001

12-24-2005, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 23 2005, 02:49 PM
Haha, al jazeera. Not at all, i'm european but i'm also in a country that has always been extremely tense with Turkey so i know alot about them and their military. Noone argues that the US army is powerfull but if you think that its so powerfull that it doesnt need assistance, you're just being silly, NATO was created exactly for that reason. In any way you have to realise that the current status only applies for a decade and half. While USSR was still in effect all these manouvres would be a huge pain in the ass for the US. Thats a fact that its inavoidable to change, its just history.

Furthermore. You're talking about PC because you live in the states. I know and you know that no war can be fought in a PC way and this one is exactly the same. History has its way of uncovering everything and again all the major attrocities will be revealed when nobody involved gives a fuck but it will still stigmatize america more. What is PC in the states could be outrageous someplace else so you're just talking on one countries internal way of sugarcoating the pill, nothing more than that.
Quoted post

How many foreign troops are in Iraq right now? Maybe 3 percent? Keep in mind we are at about 1/5th of the troop level that we had in Gulf War part 1. Also, look at any peace keeping mission or any operation with the UN or NATO. We are always the main force, if not the only force. So I think its pretty safe to say that recently, the only purpose 'assistance' has had is political.

And yes, fighting a war and political correctness don't exactly go hand in hand but we still try to use it. Fallujah is a good example - instead of dropping a few daisy cutters on the city we sent GIs to their deaths in order to lessen civilian casualties, even though the majority evacuated. Other examples would be allowing insurgents to launch attacks from Mosques without being able to respond. Or a massive IED buried in the road that obviously took several hours to set up, yet the people who live right in front of it "didn't see anything." A shotgun in someone's mouth would change that, but wouldn't be permitted. People watch Al Jazeera over there, they know what we can and can't do and generally aren't too scared of us. Everyone saw the American reaction of the Abu Ghraib fiasco and realize its not likely to happen again (for low level guys atleast). Air conditioning, showers, electricity, plumbing, regular meals, not getting blown up while buying groceries... sounds pretty fucking good to someone living in the third world squalor of a war zone.

Stereotype V.001

12-24-2005, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by shape1369@Dec 23 2005, 03:10 PM

Back when the Ottoman Empire still ran things, it was considered one of the more tolerant cultures in the middle east. Long has it been the prototype for what we would call a modern or progressive islamic state.

Quoted post

Terrible example....when the Turkish ran the Ottoman empire (the 'young turks') it turned into one of, if not THE most oppressive and sadistic regimes ever. Unless you were Turkish, in which case it was pretty sweet.

"as for toasting afghanistan, big deal. when does the US not
pick on weak states, and furthermore, why would they? "
Yea, totally. They had some bogus excuse like "blah blah blah, they facilitated, funded, and harbored an organization that just killed a couple thousand Americans, blah blah..." Imperialistic fascist pigs.

BURLAP

12-24-2005, 03:39 AM

and he misses the point again!

Stereotype V.001

12-27-2005, 06:09 PM

What exactly was your point? Not to start more needless bullshit, but I would appreciate it if you could illustrate exactly what your point was and how I missed it. The post would lead one to believe you regarded the invasion of Afghanistan as the big bad United States "picking on a weaker state." I was under the impression Afghanistan(Taliban) allowed AQ to set up shop there, funded, and in other ways facilitated their abilities to attack our country resulting in large amounts of civilian casualties. Because of this, I think it would be considered more "self defense/retaliation" than "picking on weaker states."

!@#$%

12-27-2005, 06:32 PM

have we not been picking on afghanistan from the beginning of our forgein policy adventures though?

they became extremely important strategically when it was time to fight communism, then we left them high and dry
maybe i wouldn't call it picking on them
but it is manipulation of a nation in the worst way..
we used them for our own military and political ends...and gave them nothing in return but a reason to hate and the training to act upon it.

i also am not so sure of the turkish ottoman empire being one of THE MOST oppressive and sadistic, sure, they ran things their way or the highway, but there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of an empire favoring one ethnic group and basically fucking another
the turks also set up an army by incorporating other ethnicities as slaves. but once they were in the army as adult males, things weren't so terrible. kinda like they bought their freedom by entering the army (albeit forcibly)..this was part of the reason for the demise of the empire, no?
or so i thought
i'm in the middle of reading a middle east history book so maybe i'm a little off, but they didn't exaclty build a crazy rep like nazis or even khans

Stereotype V.001

12-27-2005, 06:48 PM

We have certainly fucked over Afghanistan in the past. We (the CIA) gave some tribesmen stingers and .50 sniper rifles, and after the last russian T-72 left we ended all assistance with the Mujahideen and let their country go to shit. People in Washington wanted payback for Vietnam, and after they got it they didn't see a point in continued assistance. We even had a somewhat friendly relationship with the Taliban recently before 9-11, in keeping with Clinton and Bush Sr.'s policy of ignoring all problems. So we definitely manipulated the country, and we also had every right to respond to their support of Al Queda(something that should have happened long before 9-11.)

The Ottoman empire was extremely barbaric to everyone in the middle east, except their fellow Turks. The army your thinking of is the "Janissaries." If anything they kept the empire in business by enforcing it's rule, until the empire's demise from WWI.

imported_Tesseract

12-28-2005, 02:32 PM

Yeah, the ottoman empire sucked major balls actually. Reading todays international amnesty torture data sheets on turkey gives you a hint on how these guys like to operate.

Midnight express anyone?

!@#$%

12-28-2005, 05:55 PM

yeah, the janissaries.

it's funny guys, because i conintued reading my book last night
and found out i was right at least in part.
'the ottoman empire in the 15th and 16th centuries was notable for it's tolerance
...compared with other regimes of the time!

in some places in turkey, christians and jewish refugees found a home and were able to go on and establish a culture their, one that actually lasted (the same cannot be said of muslims in spain, for example)

john luther preached about turkish tolerance and suggested europe could learn from the model.

i've looked into it on the net as well, and i can see that their are plenty of cases that agree with your negative assesment of the ottoman empire.

that all being said, when history is concerned, it can really depend on who you ask.
and as far as barbaric.
give me a break. lots of things are barbaric. including the u.s.
i have been listening to people gripe about lousy governments my entire life.
for every shitty example you can think of, someone somewhere knows of one that is worse.
we only have to look to modern day africa for that i would think.

hindsight is 20/20
considering that clinton got us into bosnia and aslo did bomb afghanistan during his presidency, i am not so sure that is 'ignoring all problems'

see, this is why i don;t come in here anymore

i know no one cares what i'm saying or will even be affected in the slightest by what i just typed..
probably it was a waste of a few minutes.

imported_El Mamerro

12-28-2005, 07:16 PM

Why do you always say that, symbols? I don't think that's the case at all. It might be next to impossible to change people's minds entirely about a subject, but discussion is always good food for thought nonetheless.

!@#$%

12-28-2005, 07:39 PM

i honestly don't feel like i even contribute to a discussion
i don't remember a single instance on this board in 5 going on 6 years (not saying it hasn't happened, i just don't remember)
where someone has been influenced by something i said. (on a political level)

i took some time putting together a coherent post for the gunzgunzguns thread, and i am not sure that anyone but hoboknife even read it.
those dudes will probably check out that shit i said about the ottoman empire under the turks and think 'that bitch has no idea what she's talking about'

see, i'm a self-deprecating pessimist with low self esteem
haha.

imported_El Mamerro

12-28-2005, 07:46 PM

Well, if it's of any comfort, you've definitely influenced me. (http://img.allpoetry.com/images/custom/Onfire4Jesus/BestFriendsAlways.jpg)

!@#$%

12-28-2005, 07:58 PM

aww
e-huggin in the hunger strike thread.

that's money. i just need to relax.

Stereotype V.001

12-28-2005, 08:54 PM

The Ottoman empire was considered one of the more tolerant cultures before the young turks, who were predominantly young military officers, staged a coup and took power. But I suppose it is a mixed bag as far as being the most barbaric regime. Probably alot of their injustices have been forgotten, since whoever wins the war(they usually did) gets to tell their version of history in the age before 24 hour cable news. The definition of "barbaric" is subjective too...some people would consider dumping water on terror suspects, making them listen to Christina Aguilera for 48 hours straight, and get lap dances from female interrogators in bikinis to be barabaric. Some people would also consider tying your various limbs to horses and sending them in opposite directions because you offended your Turkish leaders to also be barbaric. You say tomatoe, I say tomatoh.

Clinton AND Bush Sr. did NOTHING to stop Al Queda because of political bullshit. I see you defend Clinton because he is the god of all democrats, but he had his head up his ass when it came to protecting our country as much as anyone else..even if you liked everything else he did. After the Sudanese embassy bombing, he lobbed a few cruise missiles into an empty veterinary medical plant and called it a day. They both ignored CIA briefings, including the "declaration of jihad upon the United States". Clinton wouldn't give the green light for hitting Bin Laden once we had his location confirmed because he didn't want to ruffle feathers with his oil rich friends the UAE. The USS Cole bombing might as well have never happened. Clinton had to be black mailed into just talking to the Saudis about the 1996 barracks bombings. There are countless examples of inaction, and Clinton publicly blowing up some useless shit on CNN is not going to change my mind.

!@#$%

12-28-2005, 09:00 PM

the god of all democrats
yep, that's exactly how i feel.

i am so fucking done with this pompous ass group of 12ozers
you all are so right

Stereotype V.001

12-28-2005, 09:26 PM

Well, the interwebz probably isn't the best place to 'influence people politically.' I'm sorry I disagree? Wasn't trying to be pretentious with the "god of all democrats" line, I was pointing out you did not try to defend his republican counterpart Bush I when the same argument could be said for him. My point was, Clinton is widely admired because of his domestic policy and that tends to cause people to think that he is incapable of doing any wrong. Perfect in a divine sense. That smooth southern drawl, utopian view of universal health care, and outstretched thumb projects the image of godliness.

!@#$%

12-29-2005, 02:06 PM

*deletably off topic*

yeah, i was overreacting.
i can blame it on hormones or something.

i don't really admire clinton ..he is just the best of the worst in modern history i guess. in my humble opinion. and i did directly benefit form some of his policies. i can't say that for some other administrations.

but, i am a registered independent.
i am not so keen on democrats right now, i think both they and republicans are travesties of what their parties once stood for.

all that being said, i didn't defend bush cuz i really don't know that much about his foreign policy forays, aside form gulf1, which i think he flubbed drmatically.

and i won't blame human stubborness on the interweb.
i'll just get over it.

BURLAP

12-31-2005, 10:45 PM

stereotype..i was referring to the US "toppled and occupied Afghanistan, with less personell than there are police in Manhattan". the context of your statement in conjunction with mine should be fairly easy to understand. but just in case, afghanistan was hardly a challenge, at least in conventional terms. as for the action itself, yea, i think it was fucked up. alot of innocent people died on top of the US casualties on 9/11. that doesn't mean i have a better solution, but let's look at it for what it was, including all the other nasty stuff like how little afghan kids were blown up etcetera.
as for my weak states comment, there's nothing particularly hard to grasp about it either, but i appreciate your attempts to pigeonhole me for something i didn't say.

Stereotype V.001

01-01-2006, 05:07 PM

Ahhh, I see now. My post in question took your post "as for toasting afghanistan, big deal. when does the US not pick on weak states, and furthermore, why would they? " literally, but when you said "and he misses the point again" I assumed there was some sort of cryptic double hidden message I didn't pick up on. But I see you did mean the post literally, and responded that I had missed the point because you couldn't respond to my claim that the Afghanistan war was about retaliation more than "picking on weak states." And I didn't put words in your mouth, your exact quote was "when does the US not pick on weak states" in reference to Afghanistan. I'm glad we can be so civil about this.

I think dropping a few guys (the ground force was a few hundred at the most) in a foreign hostile country to ride donkeys around the mountains, organize a small resistance force, and defeat a much larger force of fanatics wishing to martyr themselves is a "challenge." Not in conventional terms, because Afghanistan was fought in an unconventional way. Maybe reading up on the topic would be a good idea before forming opinions. And yes, war usually has its share of civilian casualties. I just had a crazy thought!! Maybe you should look up the amount of civilians killed by the Taliban, and the number killed by the US. Man that would be far out.

^missing the point again!

BURLAP

01-01-2006, 11:04 PM

i gonna give you an 'f' on that first paragraph g.i. joe. better luck next time, but good for you for typing that up all by yourself.
i'm so chutzed you need to say things like 'and i didn't put words in your mouth' when i never
said you said that...par for the course and back to that whole reading comprehension thing again eh?
also, i'm sorry, but i can't hold your hand every single time i drop a sentence, what with all my 'cryptic double hidden messages' and big, complicated words.
the reference to 'weak states' is, if you took the time to read and comprehend, pluralized.
i know, it's a big word.
as for how many people the taliban killed, your exercise fits perfectly with exactly what i said about looking at the invasion for what it was, warts and all. i just had a crazy thought too! please enlighten us all with your insider factoids and statistics. i'd like to see those figures, appended with sources please and thanks. also, could you please grace us all in great knowledgable depth, how this logic means anything in lieu of the fact the US still bombed the fuck out of the place and killed many civilians? thanks missing the point v.001!

imported_El Mamerro

01-02-2006, 12:24 AM

I'm gonna be honest and admit that I'm a little bit lost here, and I'm not sure what the point that is being missed is either.

Stereotype V.001

01-02-2006, 12:36 AM

Well, seems I've struck a nerve here. No need to get so angry big guy, it's only the internet. And as fun as personal attacks are, do you mind trying to stay on topic for the sake of everyone else on this forum? If you really need to grade my posts, make clever parodies of my user name, and explain big words with the help of angry emoticons in order to get your point across, you can always PM me. Day or night, I'm there for you babe.

In your previous post, you said "but I appreciate your attempts to pigeonhole me for something i didn't say." 'Putting words in your mouth' is a phrase that means the same thing. So no, I did not mean that to be an exact quote, or I would have used "quotations." They signify exact quotes, and unless used its best to assume you are not being exactly quoted.

I understand your post was meant literally and not as a cryptic double message. When you wrote that I "missed the point" instead of responding to any of my post's substance that directly proved you wrong, much like you are doing now, I jokingly noted your post must have had secret meanings. Although I do appreciate you holding my hand.

As far as "insider factoids and statistics" are concerned, I am not privy to any such information. I was referring to statistics that are publicly available, such as the large number of civilian casualties and human rights abuses as a result of the Taliban regime from roughly 94 to 01, compared to the small, almost non existent number as a result of the American led invasion and American/UN occupation. I invite you to look it up on google. Also, the use of explosives and "bombing the fuck out of the country" was minimal because of the nature of the invasion (although it was used to a certain extent on remote mountainous and rural areas, usually not a large civilian population there). This ties back to my earlier suggestion to actually find out the facts of the subject you're talking about before forming your opinions and letting everyone else know them.

I apologize for misunderstanding your phrase "when does the US not pick on weak states." I actually noticed the pluralization of "weak states", but since the post was on the topic of Afghanistan I had no way to know that you were (conveniently) talking about the Philippines, or El Salvador perhaps. I will try harder to read your mind and ignore the bulk of your post and common sense in the future.

Have a fantastic day.

Stereotype V.001

01-02-2006, 12:38 AM

Mainly because I don't want to get banned, that is my last post on the topic. Burlap can continue to stroke his ego and explain big words by his lonesome.

This has gotten ridiculously off topic, so feel free to delete anything.

Dawood

01-02-2006, 01:49 AM

Man, I'm glad I stay out of threads like this...too much politricks for me. I can't stand politics and politicians.

imported_Tesseract

01-02-2006, 01:55 AM

Thats an excuse now?

Only way to get banned is to start the SF1 kinda dialogue

-You're kabar
-You're a herb
blahm blahm blahm

as you were gents

BURLAP

01-02-2006, 02:35 AM

oh i'm not mad. i'm just fucking around emulating a wang. so you don't
need to write big replies and stuff about how you say i'm saying things or
how i'm saying you say things or whatever it is you say i'm saying you say
that i've said. and you're correct, i probably do have a big ego, maybe as
big as yours. if 80% of my posts were coming to crossfire to clown sf1, i'd
certainly be the ego king of crossfire. i will have a fantastic day, thank you.

BURLAP

01-02-2006, 02:37 AM

also...

I'M SO MAD!

KaBar2

01-02-2006, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by BURLAP@Jan 2 2006, 03:37 AM
also...

I'M SO MAD!
Quoted post

Well, I'm not mad. I'm getting wrecked on Carlo Rossi red, and stumbling through 12 oz. like a drunken wretch. We spend far too much time and effort arguing this kind of bullshit, and the reason we do is that the youngsters on board have tons of commendable idealism and far too little experience, and the oldsters on board have far too much regretable cynicism and far too much painful experience.

Bad shit happens to good people. Sometimes evil fucking assholes escape unscathed. I have given up trying to make sense of all the shit. I intend to survive as long as I can, and be as good a person as possible, and protect my family from all the shitheels of the world if I can. If that means I have to kill the shit out of some stupid motherfuckers, so be it. Let them take heed, mind their own business, and stand clear of me and mine. Otherwise, let them expect a dirt nap. That is all.

Future Droid

01-02-2006, 09:39 AM

i just jumped in here to page 3, dont know whats going on but how you worded that, kabar, even though i dont agree with your politics a lot, was really good.

"commendable idealism and far too little experience"

"regretable cynicism and far too much painful experience"

Dawood

01-02-2006, 02:00 PM

Yeah, man kabars on point with that one. I didn't keep up with this thread either, but, I'll second that, If some freaknik basehead comes through my window with my 4 kids sleeping in their rooms he's going to wish he went next door. I don't go running around the neighborhood with my guns, but I do go to the shooting range often to tighten up my shot. My fully loaded clip is laying next to my head where I sleep and my 9 mil. is not far away from that. (gotta keep em seperate because of the kids) But , I still have to ready, there's too many whacked out fools in this world who have simply lost their minds enough to think they can take what doesn't belong to them, or worse, hurt innocent people, I'd be eager to pop a clip into a joker who would have the audacity to think he can break into my house. In my opinion, anybody who thinks otherwise is most likely a self centered single bikeboy messenger type who will smarten up once he is responsible for other people.

Stereotype V.001

01-02-2006, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Tesseract@Jan 1 2006, 10:55 PM
Thats an excuse now?

Only way to get banned is to start the SF1 kinda dialogue

-You're kabar
-You're a herb
blahm blahm blahm

as you were gents
Quoted post

Interesting, I assumed I was on the verge of getting banned because of the thread on the top of the page.

Burlap- So being a pretentious douchebag whos posts are confusing even
to him, views are regurgitated from left wing internet "news" sources, posts
are typed by some poor soul with tourettes who keeps hitting the enter key(like this),
and
needs to resort to childish personal attacks whenever someone disagrees
was all a clever veneer? How convenient! You had me fooled professor.

imported_El Mamerro

01-02-2006, 09:50 PM

^Don't start.

BURLAP

01-02-2006, 11:47 PM

well i knew that wouldn't be your last post.
it's apparent i've really got under your skin using the same shitty argument tactics you
use on everybody else. irritating isn't it? ironic you called me the pretentious douche...
it's okay, i'm done fucking with you and playing your 'i know you are but what am i' games.
you can now go back to making yourself feel special clowning your 12oz love interest, sf1.
and keep calling me professor and i'll keep grading your posts.

tesseract is aware of all this, so that will be my final word, although i'm sure you
will respond with more of the same. i advise you use the ignore button, as i will, for the
betterment of crossfire discussion henceforth.

your friend,

Professor Burlap

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/Tesseract/SOMAD.jpg

imported_Tesseract

01-03-2006, 01:09 AM

Stereotype, you (as well everybody else) will get warned for shit talking. Alot of crossfire peeps already have. Dont make me feel like a moron here by stating the obvious. You can argue without the insults and the stupid talk that goes nowhere and as long as you do that, you're welcome. Like i said before, all that bullshit wont be tolerated anymore.

Stereotype V.001

01-03-2006, 01:17 AM

When I stated "this is my last post, mainly because I don't want to get banned" and you said "thats not an excuse" I figured it was all good. I just really enjoy getting the reactions I get out of people like burlap, SF ect through an impersonal outlet like the internet. I would have enjoyed staying on the Afghanistan topic, but obviously the good professor couldn't respond /didn't want to and it soon melted into this awesome ego-stroking circle jerk.

Oh well, the original hunger strike topic died out a while back anyway.

imported_Tesseract

01-03-2006, 03:29 AM

seriously, this is getting really stupid, really fast.

!@#$%

01-03-2006, 02:35 PM

i agree.

i'm not sure what anyone in here is even talking about anymore except mostly themselves and how their selves relate to other people's selves.
hahahaa.

yeah.,

Published on Friday, December 30, 2005

US Reports Surge in Guantanamo Hunger Strike
by Will Dunham

WASHINGTON - The number of Guantanamo Bay prisoners taking part in a hunger strike that began nearly five months ago has surged to 84 since Christmas Day, the U.S. military said on Thursday.

Forty-six detainees at the prison for foreign terrorism suspects at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, joined the protest on the Christian holiday on Sunday, said Army Lt. Col. Jeremy Martin, a military spokesman.

The prisoner population, which the Pentagon says numbers about 500, is believed to be uniformly Muslim. Only nine have been charged with any crime.

"There's been a significant increase in the number that have been added to the hunger strike," Martin said by telephone from Guantanamo.

Lawyers for some of the detainees call the strike a protest of jail conditions and prisoners' lack of legal rights. The military has denied allegations of torturing detainees.

Medical personnel were force-feeding 32 of the hunger strikers with plastic tubes inserted into the stomach through the nose, the military said. Asked the purpose of the force-feeding, Martin said, "Because our policy is to preserve life."

Military officials define a hunger striker as a detainee who has refused nine straight meals, and often refer to the strike as a "voluntary fast" and force-feeding as "enteral feeding."

The detainees began the strike in early August after the military reneged on promises to bring the prison into compliance with the Geneva Conventions, their lawyers said. Detainees are willing to starve to death to demand humane treatment and a fair hearing on whether they must stay, the lawyers said.

Most of the detainees were captured in Afghanistan and have been held for nearly four years.

"You are talking about a prison population of hundreds who have decided that with no conceivable change in their future that they just don't care to live anymore, or they are going to make a statement in dying," Musa said.

Joshua Colangelo-Bryan, a lawyer for three detainees including Bahraini striker Isa Almurbati, said, "Isa told me that he will end the hunger strike when he is sent home. His philosophy is that he should be sent home or allowed to die because the idea of spending the rest of his life at Guantanamo without any due process is simply unbearable."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1230-02.htm

!@#$%

01-03-2006, 02:36 PM

i mean come on
we are just holding them in stasis
that is some seriously fucked shit
so fucked, it's completely against our goddamn constitution.

and i'm helping pay for it with my tax dollars.

disgusting!!!

Stereotype V.001

01-03-2006, 10:58 PM

People think the fact that basically none of these guys have been charged with a crime means they are innocent. They are at one of the most expensive holding facilities, with an extremely small capacity, under the most public scrutiny, that costs the most per inmate. IMO that means the guys in there are confirmed senior Al Queda and Taliban people (I know for sure the so called "20th hi-jacker" is there because I have the TIME article about his interrogation, one of the 9-11 planners is there as well). There is probably a greater tendency to send prisoners who may not have done anything to a cheaper prison where they stack em in like sardines and release a random thousand guys now and then, like Abu Ghraib.

I personally don't have a problem with force feeding them. They are using propaganda with what they've got, plain and simple. If they were serious about killing themselves, they could easily make a noose with clothing or use a number of other easier and quicker ways.

Frate Raper

01-04-2006, 12:02 AM

If I posted everything I just wrote I'd get banned.

SF1

01-04-2006, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Frate Raper+Jan 4 2006, 01:02 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frate Raper - Jan 4 2006, 01:02 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>If I posted everything I just wrote I'd get banned.
Quoted post
[/b]

Then I'll say it!!!

<!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Jan 3 2006, 11:58 PM
People think the fact that basically none of these guys have been charged with a crime means they are innocent. They are at one of the most expensive holding facilities, with an extremely small capacity, under the most public scrutiny, that costs the most per inmate. IMO that means the guys in there are confirmed senior Al Queda and Taliban people (I know for sure the so called "20th hi-jacker" is there because I have the TIME article about his interrogation, one of the 9-11 planners is there as well). There is probably a greater tendency to send prisoners who may not have done anything to a cheaper prison where they stack em in like sardines and release a random thousand guys now and then, like Abu Ghraib.

I personally don't have a problem with force feeding them. They are using propaganda with what they've got, plain and simple. If they were serious about killing themselves, they could easily make a noose with clothing or use a number of other easier and quicker ways.
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This is the biggest load of hoarse shit that I have witnessed come from you yet! "Oh well, if they got picked up in Afghanistan and they are muslim and got sent to Guantanamo then they must be guilty"??? Fuckit!! why the fuck was there ever a legal system in the first place then??? If everybody that gets locked up is automatically guilty then what's the purpose for lawyers and Judges and Jurys then??? If they're automatically guilty then what's the point of spending tax dollars to keep them breathing??? Why not just kill them on the spot??? Why aren't graffiti writers just thrown in the dungeon without a trial then? Obviously anybody that gets arrested is automatically guilty... right??? The cops are never wrong just like the US army in Afghanastan is never wrong right... aint that what you're saying??? And if they are guilty then why the fuck can't they actually get charged with whatever the fuck it is that they are guilty of???What the fuck!?!?

gasfacevictm

01-04-2006, 03:48 AM

what i've come to believe about this country and all other "democracies" is that when they start out they are great. there is hope and potential. but after a while they just degenerate, or turn into the exact opposite of what they were founded to be against. rights are stripped away little by little until you end up living in a nation like the one we are in today. it's all false conciousness. loophole city.

imported_Tesseract

01-04-2006, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by SF1@Jan 3 2006, 11:40 PM

How is it that this guy can get away with posting complete horseshit like this and if I call him an idiot I get threatened with being banned??? Fuckit! if you're gonna ban me then ban him too!!! :huh2:
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Its because opinions arent a reason to get banned, shitalking to eachother and taking an entire thread out of context on the other hand is. We all wish members in here where more intelligent, but if stupidity is on the subject it can get ignored. Seriously, this is the last time this gets clarified, in the past week or so i've gone through talks about this with pretty much all of you, answering directly to each one. If by now you're not getting the point, i simply not care.

Stereotype V.001

01-04-2006, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by SF1@Jan 4 2006, 12:40 AM
This is the biggest load of hoarse shit that I have witnessed come from you yet! "Oh well, if they got picked up in Afghanistan and they are muslim and got sent to Guantanamo then they must be guilty"??? Fuckit!! why the fuck was there ever a legal system in the first place then??? If everybody that gets locked up is automatically guilty then what's the purpose for lawyers and Judges and Jurys then??? If they're automatically guilty then what's the point of spending tax dollars to keep them breathing??? Why not just kill them on the spot??? Why aren't graffiti writers just thrown in the dungeon without a trial then? Obviously anybody that gets arrested is automatically guilty... right??? The cops are never wrong just like the US army in Afghanastan is never wrong right... aint that what you're saying??? And if they are guilty then why the fuck can't they actually get charged with whatever the fuck it is that they are guilty of???What the fuck!?!?

"Oh well, if they got picked up in Afghanistan and they are muslim and got sent to Guantanamo then they must be guilty"
That's not even close to what I said. I didn't say that there are no people who are only guilty of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. My point is at the most expensive holding facility, with the smallest capacity for prisoners, where they get that quality one on one treatment, the people are more likely going to be CONFIRMED senior Al Queda and Taliban guys. 600-500 inmates is a drop in the bucket. That's not a political statement, its common sense. Just because its better for your agenda to proclaim they were innocent farmers who were just minding the opium fields until the big bad US snatched them up does not make it so.

Interesting you brought the legal system in to this. Foreign combatants, who won't wear a uniform, and committed an act of war do not fit into the legal system. So your graffiti comparison holds no water, but anyone breaking the law realizes if you get caught there are penalties. Don't like having to shit infront of your friends, getting dunked in ice water, and listening to Christina Aguelerra non stop? Shouldn't have paid for your buddies to drive a few planes into my country. The only thing I see wrong with this is the feeding tubes aren't being inserted rectally.

"We spend far too much time and effort arguing this kind of bullshit, and the reason we do is that the youngsters on board have tons of commendable idealism"
Right on the fucking money. Ideals sound great on paper and are completely impractical in the real world. Takes some time for people to realize this, other people have it made and get to live in fantasy land forever.

!@#$%

01-04-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Jan 3 2006, 07:58 PM
People think the fact that basically none of these guys have been charged with a crime means they are innocent.

nope.
i think that they should be held to our laws.
plain and simple

the day we start locking up foreign nationals with no due process and no trial
is the day is starts happening to americans
and maybe even inside america.

wake up.
it's not about being naive
it's about where our government is taking our country: to a place without democracy

Detainees Deserve Court Trials
By P. Sabin Willett
Monday, November 14, 2005; Page A21

As the Senate prepared to vote Thursday to abolish the writ of habeas corpus, Sens. Lindsey Graham and Jon Kyl were railing about lawyers like me. Filing lawsuits on behalf of the terrorists at Guantanamo Bay. Terrorists! Kyl must have said the word 30 times.

As I listened, I wished the senators could meet my client Adel.

Adel is innocent. I don't mean he claims to be. I mean the military says so. It held a secret tribunal and ruled that he is not al Qaeda, not Taliban, not a terrorist. The whole thing was a mistake: The Pentagon paid $5,000 to a bounty hunter, and it got taken.

The military people reached this conclusion, and they wrote it down on a memo, and then they classified the memo and Adel went from the hearing room back to his prison cell. He is a prisoner today, eight months later. And these facts would still be a secret but for one thing: habeas corpus.

Only habeas corpus got Adel a chance to tell a federal judge what had happened. Only habeas corpus revealed that it wasn't just Adel who was innocent -- it was Abu Bakker and Ahmet and Ayoub and Zakerjain and Sadiq -- all Guantanamo "terrorists" whom the military has found innocent.

Habeas corpus is older than even our Constitution. It is the right to compel the executive to justify itself when it imprisons people. But the Senate voted to abolish it for Adel, in favor of the same "combatant status review tribunal" that has already exonerated him. That secret tribunal didn't have much impact on his life, but Graham says it is good enough.

Adel lives in a small fenced compound 8,000 miles from his home and family. The Defense Department says it is trying to arrange for a country to take him -- some country other than his native communist China, where Muslims like Adel are routinely tortured. It has been saying this for more than two years. But the rest of the world is not rushing to aid the Bush administration, and meanwhile Adel is about to pass his fourth anniversary in a U.S. prison.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5111301061.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/13/AR2005111301061.html)

stop living in denial
no, it's not a river in africa.

Dawood

01-06-2006, 03:58 AM

â€œAlthough they claim they are the advocates of reform and freedom, they are in fact the forces of destruction and devastation,â€?
â€œThey promise them a comfortable life built on torn bodies...They want us to believe that destruction is reform, killing is life, disorder is order and injustice is justice,â€?

â€œThe Muslim nation finds no refuge from the injustice of the tyrant and international terrorism,â€?

Stereotype V.001

01-06-2006, 04:34 PM

I don't doubt there are a few people in Guantanamo that were low level or simply Taliban supporters, with morons like Jack Idema running private prisons ect its feasible. But that example really isn't doing it for me. Of course its a "secret" military tribunal, that only they know about and everyone else has to take their word for it. How Adel would know he was determined innocent if they shipped him off to his prison cell directly afterwards is also a bit strange. And the article really loses its objectivity since its written by the man's lawyer......IE the guy paid to convince people his client is innocent.

Dawood- are those quotes directed towards the US for holding people in Guantanamo, or the people in there for cutting teacher's heads off and that type of peace loving stuff? Because they are applicable to either, depending on your political leanings.

!@#$%

01-06-2006, 05:37 PM

stereotype are you living in a movie or something?
i love it when people refute evidence by saying "i just don't believe it"
well, congratulations on your ignorance.

Tribunal orders that Guantanamo detainee be freed
US admits man not an enemy combatant

By Charlie Savage, Globe Staff | September 9, 2004

WASHINGTON -- The US military admitted for the first time yesterday that one of the prisoners whom the Bush administration has held without charges for more than two years at Guantanamo Bay was never an Al Qaeda or Taliban fighter and should be immediately released from the interrogation camp in Cuba.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...ainee_be_freed/ (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/09/tribunal_orders_that_guantanamo_detainee_be_freed/)

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 a.m.

Pentagon review clears 38 of "enemy combatant" status

By The Associated Press and The Washington Post
Navy Secretary Gordon England says 38 to go free.

WASHINGTON â€” Thirty-eight detainees held at GuantÃ¡namo Bay, Cuba, have been declared not to be "enemy combatants" and are therefore eligible for release, the Pentagon said yesterday.

That was an increase of five from the last time the Pentagon released results of its reviews, which were concluded in January but took additional time to obtain final approval.

Most of the people held at GuantÃ¡namo are Afghans, Pakistanis and others captured after the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001. They were labeled enemy combatants, which the Bush administration decided did not afford them status as prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions.

Navy Secretary Gordon England, who is overseeing this and another related review of the detainee cases, told a Pentagon news conference that five of the 38 have been sent to their home countries. The 33 others are still at GuantÃ¡namo Bay awaiting transportation.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...4_detain30.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002224324_detain30.html)

Posted 3/10/2004 5:40 PM Updated 3/10/2004 7:34 PM
Britain frees all five former Guantanamo detainees

LONDON (AP) â€” All four men who were arrested on their return to Britain from U.S. military detention at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were released Wednesday without charge, police said.

A fifth man had not been arrested when the group arrived at Northolt Royal Air Force Base Tuesday, and he was freed within hours.

A Metropolitan Police statement announced Wednesday night that one of the arrested four had been released. Less than two hours later, a second statement said the remaining three were freed without charge as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03...-released_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03-10-detainee-released_x.htm)

An Innocent Man in the Hell of GuantÃ¡namo
By Sara Daniel
Le Nouvel Observateur

Week of Thursday 24 November 2005 Edition

He's forgotten nothing of the pain, the humiliation, the solitude. American investigators took a year to clear him. And another year to free him. Beyond the revolting injustice to which he was victim, former journalist Bader Zaman denounces the arbitrariness of American detention centers.

...
According to the "Washington Post," there are a hundred ghost prisoners. The organization Human Rights Watch - which called them the "desaparecidos" (the disappeared), in reference to the victims of Latin American dictatorships - mentions 40 people detained in secret in its October 2004 report. For several months, voices have been raised within the CIA itself to contest the legality, and above all, the effectiveness of such prisons.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112505A.shtml

Stereotype V.001

01-06-2006, 06:26 PM

"stereotype are you living in a movie or something?
i love it when people refute evidence by saying "i just don't believe it"
well, congratulations on your ignorance."

You might want to re-read my post. I said I didn't buy that specific example because (yes, I backed up my reasoning) the military tribunal was top secret so that nobody else knows. That is very convenient. Also, the man who wrote the article is Mr. Adel's lawyer (if the semtex laden vest don't fit, you must acquit!). He is paid to convince people that Mr. Adel is not a terrorist. This makes the article you posted obviously partisan, not to mention it isn't backed up by a single fact that isn't "top secret". That is not to say Adel is automatically a terrorist mastermind, its just an extremely poor piece of evidence to prove the contrary.

His name was not mentioned in any of those articles you posted, so I don't see how that is proving he is innocent ....again I'm not arguing that EVERY single person in Guantanamo is Al Queda or Taliban. In my previous post, I wrote it is certainly feasible there are low level people or uninvolved people there. But pretending they are all innocent goat herders/opium farmers who were snatched up by the US makes me wonder who exactly is "living in a movie."

!@#$%

05-19-2006, 04:45 PM

ahh time for a response?
who the fuck said they were all innocent
don't put your words in my mouth
you're living in a movie, like the bad brains.
seeing the world in black and white is all well and good until you find yourself in a grey area

Gitmo inmates attack guards stopping a suicide

Friday, May 19, 2006 Posted: 1533 GMT (2333 HKT)

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) -- Prisoners wielding fans, light fixtures and other improvised weapons clashed with guards trying to stop a detainee from committing suicide at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the military said Friday.

....

Also Thursday, the U.S. military transferred 15 Saudi detainees to the custody of their country, leaving about 460 detainees at Guantanamo.....

so they aren't all guilty? i can't believe it, can you stereotype? how can this be? they are being released after four years and were they ever charged? NO

U.N. wants it closed

The U.N. Committee Against Torture called Friday on the United States to close the detention center at Guantanamo Bay and end questionable interrogation techniques and close any secret prisons.

The United States has defended the use of the Guantanamo facility to hold "enemy combatants" without charges for as long as the "war on terror" may last, saying the detainees are suspected of links to al Qaeda or the Taliban

But detention without charges runs counter to established human-rights law, and the "war on terror" does not constitute an armed conflict under international law, this report and past U.N. reports have concluded.

eat shit and die american scum

!@#$%

05-19-2006, 04:46 PM

i wonder how many terrorists we have created by ripping innocent people out of their countries and detaining them without charge or access to..anything!

BIF.BEELOWS

05-19-2006, 05:49 PM

we aren't talking about what sort of torture is worse or perhaps...better?
depending on how u look at it...
but it's the fact that we are a nation which VALUES, AND BELIEFE IN FREEDOM AND LIBERTY that tortures people make no sense.....and it's against some act that was passed...im not to sure of the name....but im sure one of you know and can be so kind as to post it....

see if we let them starve and die...then how will we know which ones die of starvation and which ones are betten to death?

dude....things are about to get fucked up if you ask me....
we're not gonna have much loot and if something happens...we're fucked....i called it.

people don't understand that by fear these american extremists are keepin us hostage dude... next thing you know their going to be kicking down doors....

look what happen with hitler....slowly but surely the tides of change do rise....

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY BUT IF IT'S AGAINST THE LAW THEN IT'S AGAINST THE LAW (WHEN DEALING WITH HUMANS)
those are people too man....like you and me...i don't get why people dont understand...
the reason why we are never going to move toward peace...is cuz it dosn't pay well...