Is U.S. the No. 1 Rogue Nation?

[Weapon X]

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&q=wh...rch&sa=N&tab=wn (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&q=white%20phosphorus&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wn)

[POIESIS]

hard to verify that report.
and, yes.

[CACashRefund]

we can do whatever the hell we want

we're wild nigga!
we buck shots
and fuck sluts

[RumPuncher]

I see you google news link.... and raise you a google news link (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=black+sites&btnG=Search+News)

the adbusters 'history of america' volume gives a good timeline.
Can you believe that the US has been doing it all along?
Dont belive me? Look at the United Fruit Company.


read all about it (http://www.unitedfruit.org/chronology.html)
a hundred years ago, fruit was todays oil.

note how many times the US sent troops to south american companies
to 'intervene' with the local governments and people. Really... it's everywhere.

[imported_Tesseract]

An incendiary device, white phosphorus is also used to light up combat areas. The use of incendiary weapons against civilians has been banned by the Geneva Convention since 1980.

The United States did not sign the relevant protocol to the convention, a U.N. official in New York said.

[Dawood]

Just the good ole boys doing their jobs, spreading freedom.

US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah

By Peter Popham
Published: 08 November 2005

Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city.

On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988." The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons."

In December the US government formally denied the reports, describing them as "widespread myths". "Some news accounts have claimed that US forces have used 'outlawed' phosphorus shells in Fallujah," the USinfo website said. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. "They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."

But now new information has surfaced, including hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon. In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete.

"Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."

Photographs on the website of RaiTG24, the broadcaster's 24-hours news channel, www.rainews24.it, show exactly what the former soldier means. Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells (see provided link below).

A biologist in Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq, interviewed for the film, says: "A rain of fire fell on the city, the people struck by this multi-coloured substance started to burn, we found people dead with strange wounds, the bodies burned but the clothes intact."

The documentary, entitled Fallujah: the Hidden Massacre, also provides what it claims is clinching evidence that incendiary bombs known as Mark 77, a new, improved form of napalm, was used in the attack on Fallujah, in breach of the UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons of 1980, which only allows its use against military targets.

Meanwhile, five US soldiers from the elite 75th Ranger Regiment have been charged with kicking and punching detainees in Iraq.

The news came as a suicide car bomber killed four American soldiers at a checkpoint south of Baghdad yesterday.

© 2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.

------------------------------------------

***See the photographs from Italian TV mentioned in the article here***:

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiest...?gallery=1&id=2

(click on 'succissiva' to go to the next picture in the slideshow)

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/foto/1/3.jpg

looks to me like they were lighting up more than the combat areas.

[POIESIS]

some comments from another forum by a guy who's in the military, or so he claims:

If the WP charge is true, you’d have seen Fallujah so obscured with smoke that nothing would have been visable…and troops would have been at greater risk as they would have been running up on those guys at small arms range which eliminates any advantage the grunts had with their supporting arms.
I see clear streets on every bit of footage I’ve seen except for dust kicked up by HE, which is brown, not bright white as WP is.
In fact, when I was there, I was curious as to why the infantry DIDN’T have WP grenades to screen their movements across streets and such. A. They didn’t have any in inventory. B. Wouldn’t have used it if they had because a smokescreen neutralises every small arms advantage they had. You can’t scope a guy off a rooftop through a cloud of smoke.
(We found people with bizarre wounds-their bodies burned but their clothes intact, relates Mohamad Tareq al-Deraji, a biologist and Fallujah resident.)
Sorry, there has NEVER been an incindiary weapon used on the tactical level in all fo history that could concievably do that. You burn, all of you burns…period.
Also, if you’re using “Chemical� weapons, it would behoove you to equip your own people with gas masks….another piece of kit conspicuously absent in photos or footage. In fact, it’s usually the first thing that gets left behind or thrown in a ditch when soldiers move out.
Absence of gas masks leads me to conclude that the US didn’t even bother to use CS riot control agents (tear gas). Why? Cause it’s more of a pain in the ass than it’s worth.


any militarly dudes(villain) have anything to add...does this hold water?

[POIESIS]

here's the english version of the report: Fallujah-The Hidden Massacre (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm)

[POIESIS]

A Debate: Did the U.S. Military Attack Iraqi Civilians With White Phosphorous Bombs in Violation of the Geneva Conventions? (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/08/1516232)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We speak with a former U.S. soldier who witnessed orders being given to drop white phosphorous bombs over Fallujah; a Pentagon spokesperson in Baghdad who admits such bombs were used but denied they were used as a chemical weapon; and the news director of RAI TV, the Italian TV network that produced “Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre.� [includes rush transcript]


* Maurizio Torrealta, News Editor for the Italian television RAI and co-producer of the film "Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre."
* Jeff Englehart, former army Specialist in Iraq. He maintains a weblog called Fight to Survive
* Lieutenant Colonel Steve Boylan, spokesperson for the U.S. military in Iraq.

[KaBar2]

When I was in the Marine Corps, we trained with willy pete rounds, and they were commonly used to "mark targets." The infantry fire control liason radios to the artillery support unit (usually several miles behind him) and calls in eight-digit artillery coordinates. This will allow the arty to drop a round within ten meters of the coordinates. The artillery radio-telephone operator (RTO) repeats the coordinates to double check. The infantry liason confirms, and requests "One round willy pete to mark target." The arty liason confirms, then says "One round willy pete, round out. Watch for smoke," when the round is fired. Boom. The WP hits near the target. The infantry liason radios back and adjusts fire, adding or subtracting distance, or right or left ("Long rifle, this is Hotel Three Six, adjust fire. Add one hundred, right fifty, over." The arty RTO confirms, then says "One round willy pete, round out. Watch for smoke." Boom. A cloud of white willy pete on target. The infantry liason then says "Long Rifle, target. Ten rounds Hotel Echo, FIRE FOR EFFECT." Boom boom boom boom boom ba-boomity boom bom. The target disappears under the hail of 155mm HE rounds. If the target is serviced, the infantry liason says "Long rifle, cease fire, I say again, cease fire." But if not, he says "Long rifle, RE-PEAT, I say again, RE-PEAT." "Roger, Hotel Three Six. Round out." Boom Boom Boom Boom Boomity ba-boom boom boom. Again, the target gets ten 155mm HE rounds. Twenty rounds of HE ought to definately do the trick. "Long Rifle, you got it. Cease fire."

Those two WP rounds make a big cloud of white smoke, and it also splatters chunks of burning white phosphorous everywhere, in a big radius about fifty or one hundred meters in every direction. One does not use WP for illumination. The WP burns the everloving shit out of anything it touches, and it doesn't spare anything. Anything that will burn, burns--including houses, trees, crops, vehicles, livestock and people. If the shit gets on you, it is burning white phosphorous. It burns until it goes out. Water won't put it out, nothing else will either. Standard battlefield first aid for casualties hit by WP is to try to dig the burning WP out of the casualty with a bayonet before it burns all the way through him.

Illumination is achieved with ILLUM rounds, which are not WP, but magnesium flares suspended by a parachute. There are 81mm mortar ILLUM rounds, 4.2 inch mortar ILLUM rounds, 105mm ILLUM rounds and 155mm ILLUM rounds. None of them contain WP.

Getting burned by WP would really suck (in fact, getting burned by anything would really suck.) We watched them shoot WP in training at 29 Palms, CA.

I have a hard time imagining anybody using WP grenades to create a smokescreen, but perhaps if you had a lot of WP grenades and no smoke grenades, a WP would work, if you really, really needed smoke. Most likely, if the Marines used a lot of WP at Fallujah, they were highly pissed at the guys defending and wanted to teach them a lesson for shooting at Marines. "Either surrender peaceably, RIGHT FUCKING NOW, or get your ass smoked, motherfucker."

Civilians would be highly advised to get the hell out of any battle area where Marines are about to attack the enemies of the United States, because what is about to happen is that everybody and every thing beyond the forward edge of the battle area is about to die horribly. The Marine Corps has the combat power to erradicate every living thing in front of it, and nobody should be stupid enough to believe that they will not use it. It is what Marines do: kill the everloving shit out of everything they see on a battlefield, using fire and close combat. White phosphorous is JUST THE START.

You guys have absolutely no idea the amount of force that a single Marine battalion can bring to bear. It is awesome in it's horror.

Napalm may only be used against military targets. Terrorist insurgents are a military target. Ergo, they are fair game, for napalm, or willy pete, or what-the-fuck-ever.

[imported_Tesseract]

Damn, was i away from this forum a long time or kabar is really inspired lately?

[!@#$%]

"You guys have absolutely no idea the amount of force that a single Marine battalion can bring to bear. It is awesome in it's horror."

oh, really?
no shit sherlock.
why the FUCK do you think some of us were so against this war in the first place?

fucking destruction of a sovereign nation, AND FOR WHAT?
before we looked like a cool country with a shit military/govt apparatus
now we all just look like shit
we're the new empire, is what the fuck we are.

[POIESIS]

hmmm...the soldier in the report refers to WP as 'whiskey pete' NOT 'willy pete'.
so far as i can tell, it is in fact called 'willy pete' NOT 'whiskey pete'..is that not
a pretty big slip up or do they have different names for this shit?

[POIESIS]

hugo grotius is probably rolling in his grave..

[imported_dowmagik]

I got to hear some pretty wicked second hand Fallujah stories from a buddy who just got out of the marine corp, many of his friends were there. He said when they stormed the city, they were told to kill everything in their path no matter what, even if its a 6 year old walking down the street, to hit it with all you got. I am so fucking glad I never joined the service.

[KaBar2]

"Whiskey" is the military phonetic for the letter "W". The "willy pete" moniker is an old one (military forces have used white phosphorus rounds for a long time, since around WWI) from back when the phonetic alphabet was different. Today it is Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Fox and so on. Back then it was Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Foxtrot and so on. "Willie" was "W," and "Pete" was "P," I think. Today it is "Whiskey" and "Poppa." Nevertheless, I never heard a Marine call white phosphorus anything but "willy pete."

Even training is extremely hazardous. While I was in the Marines there were three or four deaths in our regiment that occured during training, from vehicle crashes, rollovers, accidental weapons discharges, etc. When I was in the National Guard, a guy from another battalion was crushed between two tanks while guiding one in the dark using night vision devices. I was injured myself, helping open up the huge, heavy, tank engine-bay doors on the top of the tank behind the turret. We had to replace an engine. The engines and transmissions are designed to be quickly replaceable. I think there are only eight large bolts holding one of those huge air-cooled, supercharged V-12 diesel engines in place, plus three electrical connections, like plugs. Changing one only takes a couple of hours. The engines are stockpiled on or near the battlefield inside of huge clamshell-like aluminum cases. Watching the mechanics change an engine or transmission in a tank is like watching a pit crew at a NASCAR race. They haul ass.
My tank crew was back in "action" before lunch, but I, fortunately, was medevac'ed to the Battalion Aid Station, and then on to "the rear area," to a Brigade field hospital. (Of course, there were perfectly good civilian hospitals about fifteen minutes away, but since we were training for war, I wound up on a cot in a tent in the desert, hobbling 100 yards to take a piss, instead of in a nice, clean Yakima hospital bed.)

[SF1]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Nov 9 2005, 08:59 AM
Civilians would be highly advised to get the hell out of any battle area where Marines are about to attack the enemies of the United States, because what is about to happen is that everybody and every thing beyond the forward edge of the battle area is about to die horribly.Â*** The Marine Corps has the combat power to erradicate every living thing in front of it, and nobody should be stupid enough to believe that they will not use it.Â*** It is what Marines do:Â*** kill the everloving shit out of everything they see on a battlefield, using fire and close combat.Â*** White phosphorous is JUST THE START.

You guys have absolutely no idea the amount of force that a single Marine battalion can bring to bear.Â*** It is awesome in it's horror.

Napalm may only be used against military targets.Â*** Terrorist insurgents are a military target.Â*** Ergo, they are fair game, for napalm, or willy pete, or what-the-fuck-ever.
Quoted post


The fact that you condone this like it's ok to just storm a town and kill every single thing in sight, man woman and child, old and young, threat or not... shows what an evil fucking douchebag you are.
They call terrorists "cowards" for doing exactly this, and they don't have the support of body armor, tanks, state of the art equipment, an entire batalian right behind them. They also don't have the luxury of sending lazer guided bombs from miles away... therefore they usually have to sacrafice themselves in order to kill others.
If the Terrorists are "cowards" than what does that make you and your beloved Marine Corps?

[ASER1NE]

Wait ....
China is on some major shit right now , youll see.

[Dawood]

Quoted post


The fact that you condone this like it's ok to just storm a town and kill every single thing in sight, man woman and child, old and young, threat or not... shows what an evil fucking douchebag you are.
They call terrorists "cowards" for doing exactly this, and they don't have the support of body armor, tanks, state of the art equipment, an entire batalian right behind them. They also don't have the luxury of sending lazer guided bombs from miles away... therefore they usually have to sacrafice themselves in order to kill others.
If the Terrorists are "cowards" than what does that make you and your beloved Marine Corps?
Quoted post
[/quote]


pum-pum lick a shot rudebwoy!

[Dick Quickwood]

sickening

[KaBar2]

Somehow I missed SF1's little tantrum, so sorry I'm late, but here's my answer.

Terrorists are not terrorists because they kill people. They are not even terrorists because they deliberately kill civilians, although that's certainly bad enough. Terrorists are terrorists because their exercise of deadly force and violence is completely unauthorized and uncontrolled by a civilian government. Essentially, they do not wage war according to the established and accepted rules of war as set down by the Geneva Convention. They do not wear distinctive uniforms, identifying them as soldiers. They do not wear dog tags. They do not wear rank insignia, and they do not carry their weapons openly, so that they can readily be identified as armed soldiers of a legitimate government.

We have rules of war so that wholesale slaughter of an enemy force is not necessary to achieve victory. Military officers are professionals, just as doctors and lawyers and engineers are professionals. Military officers are obligated to carry out their orders with a minimum of loss of life, of their own troops, and enemy troops, as well as civilians in the battle area. Enemy soldiers who wish to surrender are supposed to be allowed to do so. They are to lay down all weapons, and raise their hands in the universal gesture of military surrender. Surrendering soldiers are to be treated with as much dignity and respect as is possible under the circumstances extant. Iraqi EPW's were not abused and humiliated. They were rounded up, fed, given water, and held until the end of hostilities, then (to save having to feed them and care for them) they were released and told "The war is over. You are officially demobilized. Go home." Wounded Iraqis were cared for by American, British and coalition medics, doctors and nurses.
Iraqi weapons were confiscated and stockpiled to arm a new Iraqi government. As many Iraqi officers as could be identified were arrested and investigated for being members of the Baath Party, participation in war crimes and so forth.

The Iraqi terrorists satisfy NONE of the rules of the Geneva Convention. They qualify as terrorists, bandits and guerrillas. Their exercise of deadly force against American soldiers and their allies, and very much so against the Iraqi civilians, is COMPLETELY UNAUTHORIZED. The Iraqi Army SURRENDERED, and the survivors of the war were treated humanely. There are many who believe that demobilizing the entire Iraqi Army was a bad idea. They think the Iraqi Army should have been put on Uncle Sam's payroll, and utilized to guard government buildings, police the streets, enforce the law, etc. Perhaps they are correct. Many terrorists are former soldiers who were persuaded to carry out attacks against U.S. forces for money. If they had a paycheck from Uncle Sam, no doubt they'd be less vulnerable to the arguments of terrorist ringleaders.

The U.S. armed forces, and ESPECIALLY the United States Marine Corps prides itself on selfless devotion to duty above all things. The Marine Corps will stand down and allow themselves to be taken captive if the ranking officer or NCO orders it to be so. (This is what occurred at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, where the U.S. Ambassador ordered the Marine Gy. Sgt. in charge of the Marine Security Force in the embassy to stand down, lay down their weapons, and surrender to the hundreds of Iranian student radicals who surrounded the embassy. Rescue was impossible, the Marines were overwhelmingly outnumbered, and the ambassador chose surrender over an Alamo-like last stand. The MSF, of course, wanted to mount a spirited defense, but were obliged to follow orders. They spent 444 days blindfolded, shackled, tied with ropes and forbidden to contact the outside world, before being summarially released after Lt. Col. North worked a deal with the Iranians.

While I was an active duty Marine, I followed orders explicitly, confident that the Marine Corps was correctly receiving it's orders through the chain of command from the President and the JCOS. Soldiers do not wage a private war. They carry out the orders they are given from the elected representatives of the American people. "My precious Marine Corps" is an armed force representing the American people, doing their bidding, waging war in their name and in their defense. They are the best at what they do in the entire world.

[SF1]

So according to you , Kabar, freedom fighters are "terrorists"?
The French underground during W.W.2 were terrorists?
The Cubans that got slaughtered at the Bay of Pigs were Terrorists?


You're an idiot. Learn the difference between Guerrilla's and other people fighting in defense against an INVADING foreign occupying ARMY---> and "terrorists". :dunce:

[SF1]

"Iraqi EPW's were not abused and humiliated."

Did he seriously just say this??? :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Dec 3 2005, 05:23 AM
Surrendering soldiers are to be treated with as much dignity and respect as is possible under the circumstances extant. Iraqi EPW's were not abused and humiliated.

"My precious Marine Corps" is an armed force representing the American people, doing their bidding, waging war in their name and in their defense. They are the best at what they do in the entire world.
Quoted post


http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_newyorker-e.jpg
YEAH BABY!!!

[CACashRefund]

those weekend warriors werent marines.

[imported_Tesseract]

Oh shit, really? because those guys where iraqi EPW's for sure...

[CACashRefund]

haha good point,

but its not the norm for pow to be treated like that, not only that but look at where those "soldiers" are right now.

[tsuifuku]

Originally posted by SF1@Dec 3 2005, 12:53 PM
The Cubans that got slaughtered at the Bay of Pigs were Terrorists?
Quoted post


if you are refering to the cubans who were mercenaries funded by the US government to invade cuba, then yes, they were terrorists.

[Gunm]

Originally posted by SF1+Nov 9 2005, 11:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF1 - Nov 9 2005, 11:57 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-KaBar2@Nov 9 2005, 08:59 AM

Quoted post


The fact that you condone this like it's ok to just storm a town and kill every single thing in sight, man woman and child, old and young, threat or not... shows what an evil fucking douchebag you are.
They call terrorists "cowards" for doing exactly this, and they don't have the support of body armor, tanks, state of the art equipment, an entire batalian right behind them. They also don't have the luxury of sending lazer guided bombs from miles away... therefore they usually have to sacrafice themselves in order to kill others.
If the Terrorists are "cowards" than what does that make you and your beloved Marine Corps?
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

Yeah...the terrorists are such great freedom fighters....

Sure, let's just decapitate non-combatents on television.

SF1, you remind me a lot of that evil little bastard from Chuck palanhuiks Lullaby.....using a cause to excuse and subsequently forward your own little psychoptic agenda.

[imported_Tesseract]

You guys are just retarted, how difficult is it to understand that A) The USarmy has no reason to be iraq B)That this war started by ignoring every other international authority and C) that people who deserve their country, outgunned have to use every possible way to do so. What do you expect them to do, pull their pants down and bend over?

[CACashRefund]

The us army has every reason to be in iraq, we want its fucking oil. Do you not understand what war and politics is?War is basically a continuatoon of political policy by other means, our political policy is to protect our interests and oil is one of those interests.

And its one thing to resist occupiers, its another matter altogether to kidnap innocent non combatants and behead them, bomb markets and shit.



*In the spirit of crossfire id like to point out you spelled retarded wrong.

"retart"

[POIESIS]

^likewise you must not understand just war theory and international law
and treaties related to war. the US invaded, thereby negating any sort
of authority to morals and what you can reasonably deem 'right' war
conduct and 'wrong' war conduct. also convenient to solely blame the
'terrorists' and not the impetus. you've heard the term 'flytrap' right?

[POIESIS]

also, 'in the spirit' of crossfire, you spelled continuation wrong.

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by POIESIS@Dec 3 2005, 03:48 PM
^likewise you must not understand just war theory and international law
and treaties related to war. the US invaded, thereby negating any sort
of authority to morals and what you can reasonably deem 'right' war
conduct and 'wrong' war conduct. also convenient to solely blame the
'terrorists' and not the impetus. you've heard the term 'flytrap' right?
Quoted post



What he said, also adding another one 'in the spirit' of crossfire, English is my second language. How many do you speak?

[SF1]

Originally posted by LENS+Dec 3 2005, 06:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LENS - Dec 3 2005, 06:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by SF1@Nov 9 2005, 11:57 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-KaBar2@Nov 9 2005, 08:59 AM

Quoted post


The fact that you condone this like it's ok to just storm a town and kill every single thing in sight, man woman and child, old and young, threat or not... shows what an evil fucking douchebag you are.
They call terrorists "cowards" for doing exactly this, and they don't have the support of body armor, tanks, state of the art equipment, an entire batalian right behind them. They also don't have the luxury of sending lazer guided bombs from miles away... therefore they usually have to sacrafice themselves in order to kill others.
If the Terrorists are "cowards" than what does that make you and your beloved Marine Corps?
Quoted post


Yeah...the terrorists are such great freedom fighters....

Sure, let's just decapitate non-combatents on television.

SF1, you remind me a lot of that evil little bastard from Chuck palanhuiks Lullaby.....using a cause to excuse and subsequently forward your own little psychoptic agenda.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]


Terrorists highjack plains, terrorists go to other countries and sneak into crowds and blow up innocent people minding their own buisiness for the sake of making a political point.
These niggas running around with AK47's fighting the U.S. military in Iraq are Guerrillas fighting to defend their people from a foreign invasion, not terrorists. Get your head out your ass.

[SF1]

Originally posted by tsuifuku+Dec 3 2005, 06:53 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tsuifuku - Dec 3 2005, 06:53 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-SF1@Dec 3 2005, 12:53 PM
The Cubans that got slaughtered at the Bay of Pigs were Terrorists?
Quoted post


if you are refering to the cubans who were mercenaries funded by the US government to invade cuba, then yes, they were terrorists.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

You're right. That was a bad example.

[Stereotype V.001]

Tesseract (among others) seem to be relatively sympathetic to the 'freedom fighters' out there. "They are outgunned so they have to do what they have to do" definitely justifies killing hundreds of innocent civilians via the poor man's smart bomb, and pretending the insurgency is being waged by all Iraqis and not the muj.... solid reasoning.

There was a group of likeminded individuals driving around Iraq a week or so ago. They didn't spout off their opinions from the comfort of their homes though. No, these people went out and did something about it. Now, the poor disenfranchised Iraqis(no foreigners!), who were just doing every possible thing they could, are going to cut their heads off on Al Jazeera.

This means one thing- there is a job opening for you! You obviously have very strong opinions, and you now have the once of a lifetime opportunity to put your neck where your mouth is. Let me know how that goes for you.

[SF1]

Originally posted by CACashRefund@Dec 3 2005, 07:23 PM
The us army has every reason to be in iraq, we want its fucking oil. Do you not understand what war and politics is?War is basically a continuatoon of political policy by other means, our political policy is to protect our interests and oil is one of those interests.

And its one thing to resist occupiers, its another matter altogether to kidnap innocent non combatants and behead them, bomb markets and shit.



*In the spirit of crossfire id like to point out you spelled retarded wrong.

"retart"
Quoted post


Any of them niggas that got decapitated got it because they went to Iraq while we were at war with Iraq. How the fuck you gonna go into a warzone in another country that your country is at war with and expect to be safe? Come on now. It's fucked up, but then it's also fucked up the amount of innocent civilians WE'RE murduring over there so how the fuck they suppose to feel sympathy for our people?
And I can't beleive that you actually condone taking out other countries just to loot their oil? :haha: The government makes up lies for excuses to go to war because even they know it's evil what they're doing. Oil is not in our "self interest" There's other options but the government is run by oil companies so they would rather sacrifice thousands of people (along with the health of the planet) looting other countries, than to go through the trouble of switching to something else.

*Also keeping in the tradition of Crossfire... what the fuck is a continuatoon??? :dunce:

[BURLAP]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 3 2005, 03:34 PM
Tesseract (among others) seem to be relatively sympathetic to the 'freedom fighters' out there. "They are outgunned so they have to do what they have to do" definitely justifies killing hundreds of innocent civilians via the poor man's smart bomb, and pretending the insurgency is being waged by all Iraqis and not the muj.... solid reasoning.

There was a group of likeminded individuals driving around Iraq a week or so ago. They didn't spout off their opinions from the comfort of their homes though. No, these people went out and did something about it. Now, the poor disenfranchised Iraqis(no foreigners!), who were just doing every possible thing they could, are going to cut their heads off on Al Jazeera.

This means one thing- there is a job opening for you! You obviously have very strong opinions, and you now have the once of a lifetime opportunity to put your neck where your mouth is. Let me know how that goes for you.
Quoted post


conversely you seem to think having the mightiest military in the world justifies killing thousands of innocents under false war aims. maybe you would agree it's been turned into a terrorist flytrap....maybe you think that's a good idea and maybe you think iraqi's should be thankful for that.
operative word, 'relatively'. as in the relativity of the situation dictates that the US invaded illegally with 'shock and awe'. from that i'm not sure what YOU would expect to happen, but as most analysts noted before the invasion it was a predictable outcome. call it sympathy if it fits your agenda i guess.

[BURLAP]

the daily show's rob corddry-"de-weakening iraq" (http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/rob_corddry/index.jhtml)

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by BURLAP@Dec 3 2005, 08:21 PM

conversely you seem to think having the mightiest military in the world justifies killing thousands of innocents under false war aims. maybe you would agree it's been turned into a terrorist flytrap....maybe you think that's a good idea and maybe you think iraqi's should be thankful for that.
operative word, 'relatively'. as in the relativity of the situation dictates that the US invaded illegally with 'shock and awe'. from that i'm not sure what YOU would expect to happen, but as most analysts noted before the invasion it was a predictable outcome. call it sympathy if it fits your agenda i guess.
Quoted post


Wow, all of those big words totally validate your point. But please allow me to make a rebuttal, professor.

I never stated that the invasion of Iraq was at all legal. It was obviously fucking idiotic, not to mention we had multiple opportunities to have Saddam overthrown by various military officers, the kurds, in coups. But we didn't and now we are there, with no simple way out.

My main point was how disgusting it is when people try to justify what the insurgency does by saying 'the invasion is illegal' and pretending there isn't a large amount of attacks being carried out by foreign fighters. Nothing justifies killing hundreds of civilians in suicide bomb attacks, or cutting peace activist's heads off on TV. Don't call them "freedom fighters" or even imply that. They are fighting to instate another Iran/Afghanistan where you get executed because you have the audacity to think for yourself and 9 year old girls become wives to old men. That is not freedom in the loosest interpretation of the word.

Speaking of "predictable", I can't say i'm suprised someone had to put words in my mouth to make an argument. And feel free to actually look up the numbers of how many people were ACCIDENTALLY killed in US bomb strikes, and how many were DELIBERATELY killed by the wonderful Iraqi freedom opposition forces of awesomenity.

...I wonder how long it will be before I see kids with Zarqawi t-shirts like the "Che Guerra" shirts on college campuses.

[BURLAP]

i'm very unsure where somebody put words in YOUR mouth, unless you don't understand the phrase 'seem to think'.
anyhow, if you'd like to discuss things as an adult you can start by dropping the sarcastic comments about how i used 'big words' and bullshit like 'professor'.
otherwise you can be a dick and keep sparring with your friend sf1.

[SF1]

There's no talking sense with stereotype. He's fucking retarded.

[imported_Tesseract]

Ok stereotype, i wont call them anything. I will describe them and you can make up a term for them. They are people who oppose against the illegal invasion in their country. Do your best.

Also, about your putting your neck where your mouth is comment, i aint american and i aint an iraqi, this is not my mess to clean up although i have a very strong opinion about it as you said. I supose you are american though so it makes much more sense for you to go fight this beautifull war.

[Dawood]

[quote=BURLAP,Dec 3 2005, 08:21 PM]
...I wonder how long it will be before I see kids with Zarqawi t-shirts like the "Che Guerra" shirts on college campuses.
Quoted post



Go to new york and check out all the cats rocking turbans and those palestinian scarves (ghutras) in their gear....non muslims..

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by BURLAP@Dec 3 2005, 11:04 PM
i'm very unsure where somebody put words in YOUR mouth, unless you don't understand the phrase 'seem to think'.
anyhow, if you'd like to discuss things as an adult you can start by dropping the sarcastic comments about how i used 'big words' and bullshit like 'professor'.
otherwise you can be a dick and keep sparring with your friend sf1.
Quoted post


--For two consecutive posts, you have managed to avoid responding to any of the points I made. I guess under the regurgitated cable news talking points, and words you pulled out of your highschool vocab book, you have no argument. But can you go for a third post... or did pointing out the use of your large, complicated words really injure that bloated ego too much? Suck it up big guy!

Tesseract, that is a pretty shitty excuse. I believe only one of the peace activists was/is American. And since they are only people who opposed an illegal war, it is pretty clear you feel for their cause. So, forget being a peace activist, why not fight back against the American oppressors? A Belgian woman tried to take out a convoy of Americans a week or two ago. She missed, and only managed to spray anyone in the immediate area with a warm shower of what used to be (what I can only assume) was one fine piece of ass. But fuck damnit, she had some heart.

You don't have to make any more excuses. Although you love jumping on the bandwagon, and pretending the insurgents never really do anything so terrible and they are in the moral right- you would never put your delicate ass in harms way. You have said that much already..its unfortunate though. You could have told the noble freedom fighters how great they are first hand. I'm sure they would have loved you.

[Stereotype V.001]

"Go to new york and check out all the cats rocking turbans and those palestinian scarves (ghutras) in their gear....non muslims.. "

I'm going to start wearing a yamaka...those things are stylish.

[SF1]

The point is that it doesn't matter how dirty they fight because they are in the right defending their country from an invading military. They can fight as dirty as they have to... we're sure as fuck fighting dirty with our military supremecy with lazer guided bombs and shit and massacreing innocent civilians. How the fuck you gonna bitch about them figting dirty when it's the only means they have of defending themselves?

[BURLAP]

ah, so dick status it is.

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 4 2005, 12:06 PM
Tesseract, that is a pretty shitty excuse. I believe only one of the peace activists was/is American. And since they are only people who opposed an illegal war, it is pretty clear you feel for their cause. So, forget being a peace activist, why not fight back against the American oppressors? A Belgian woman tried to take out a convoy of Americans a week or two ago. She missed, and only managed to spray anyone in the immediate area with a warm shower of what used to be (what I can only assume) was one fine piece of ass. But fuck damnit, she had some heart.

You don't have to make any more excuses. Although you love jumping on the bandwagon, and pretending the insurgents never really do anything so terrible and they are in the moral right- you would never put your delicate ass in harms way. You have said that much already..its unfortunate though. You could have told the noble freedom fighters how great they are first hand. I'm sure they would have loved you.
Quoted post


:rolleyes:

[KaBar2]

The Iraqi "insurgents" are NOT repreesenting the legitimate government of Iraq. They are representing the NEVER ELECTED, FASCIST GOVERNMENT OF SADDAM HUSSEIN. The people of Iraq, given the opportunity to vote, did so. There is a legitimately elected Iraqi government in Baghdad, which fields a National Police force and the Iraqi Defense Force, as well as a national health service, schools, etc.

Those prisoners being abused in the photograph were NOT IRAQI SOLDIERS. They were captured terrorist suspects, some Iraqis, some foreign nationals. The Iraqi soldiers captured during the war were well-treated, once they surrendered and were in the custody of U.S. troops. THEY WERE TREATED ACCORDING TO THE GENEVA CONVENTION. They were dressed in official Iraqi Army uniforms, and surrendered honorably to an overwhelmingly stronger and more aggressive American and Allied force. They were held in large open-air compounds surrounded by barbed wire, but given food, water and medical care. They were not robbed. They were not murdered. They were not deprived of their nation's uniform or their military I.D. or their dog tags. Once it was clear that the country had surrendered, the invading Allied forces RELEASED THE EPW'S and they walked home, some walked quite a long way, hundreds of miles, wearing their uniforms and Iraqi Army boots.

The people presently carrying out terrorist actions against the present, legitimate government of Iraq, the Iraqi people, and the American forces in Iraq are NOT FREEDOM FIGHTERS. They occupy the exact same category as did the Nazi "werewolves" who carried out terrorist acts against occupying Allied forces in Germany AFTER GERMANY SURRENDERED.

The concept of "honorable surrender" doesn't seem to have penetrated this board at all. The American troops are not slaughtering innocents by firing squads, as the Nazis did in WWII. No Iraqi women have been herded into forced prostitution, as the Japanese soldiers did everywhere they went during WWII, including China, Korea and Singapore. Despite your repeated assertions that terrorist suspects are being tortured, I have yet to see any documentation of prisoners maimed, blinded, missing fingers, with maimed genitals, etc. The Americans tortured in North Vietnam were drowned, strangled with ropes, hung by their arms handcuffed behind them, beaten severely(especially on the soles of their feet,) tortured with electricity, burned with cigarettes and so forth. REAL torture. The pressure being applied to these car bombers, beheaders, executioners, murderers of relief organization members, killers of women and children, bombers of marketplaces and mosques is that they are forced to stay awake for long periods, to answer questions over and over, to sit or stand in uncomfortable positions. The people that piled them naked in front of cameras or forced them to masturbate are sitting in Federal prison cells as I write this. Frankly, I think that their punishment for humiliating these terrorist suspects was too harsh, but the Army apparently does not agree.

War is bad. Everybody knows this. Somehow the American left has decided that the U.S. is always wrong, in every situation, and they just bend over backwards to do everything they can think of to insult and denigrate the United States. Our armed forces do what they can to avoid killing civilians, but I will not criticize soldiers who are fighting an enemy who REFUSES TO WEAR A UNIFORM who accidentally kills civilians. Iraq was defeated. The fascistic, totalitarian dictatorship of Saddam Hussein was CRUSHED, in record time. The terror tactics of the remaining Baathist fascists are in no way legitimate or warranted. The Sunnis are attempting to hold on to their dictatorship and their positions of power, from which they mounted a reign of terror in Iraq. Iraqi girls were snatched off the street for the sexual pleasure of Saddam's monstrous sons. Iraqi boys were forced into the army at gunpoint, and millionsd died in pointless war with Iran. Saddam himself tortured and murdered thousands of Iraqis arrested on suspicion that they opposed him. He had his own daughters' husbands murdered because they fled the country. There is not one single redeeming thing about Saddam Hussein and his Islamo-fascist dictatorship that warrants your support. He is a MONSTER, and the sooner he is convicted and executed, the better.

His kleptocratic lieutenants will eventually bought to ground and either killed or imprisoned. Iraq will be a free and democratic nation, and it's government will be a democratically elected, constitutional Republic. Iraqi women will be able to attend school, to vote, to own property, to serve in public office, to have professional careers, much like the women of western European nations. Iraqi children will be able to attend school and learn something besides the Koran or how wonderful Saddam is. Iraqi universities will begin to produce graduates with an actual education, instead of just a paper degree. Iraqi industry will produce the things that Iraq needs, and 90% of the consumer items in the country will cease to be imported from suppliers who must bribe Baathist officials to get the business. The Iraqi petroleum industry will make profits. Most of those profits will go to the Iraqi people, in the form of taxes, to operate Iraqi society, rather than into the pockets of Saddam Hussein and his criminal family and his tribe of fascists. The Iraqis will sell oil to whomever they please, but no longer will Saddam Hussein and his cronies try to jack up American oil companies to further his sickening dictatorship.

I know many of you on this board disagree with this. You prefer the "America is the Great Satan" version of history. You prefer to believe that somehow or another, America is the cause of all the world's troubles. Grow up. The most important reason we attacked Iraq is that Saddam Hussein constituted a threat, however remote, to Israel. Israel has enormous influence over U.S. foreign policy and strategic planning, through their strong supporters in Congress, in the CIA, in the bureaucracy of the government itself. The reason the countries of the Middle East hate the U.S. is because we support Israel. Israel is the Jewish state. The Muslims hate and despise Jews far more than the Nazis ever dreamed of. Without U.S. support and protection, Israel would have long since been destroyed and every single Israeli man, woman and child killed. The 1973 war was a very close thing. To enable the Israelis to win, the U.S. sent them 90% of our tanks from Europe. Scot free, it didn't cost them a dime.

Torture is not the issue. It's Israel, and Jews, that are the issue. As long as we continue to support them, the Middle East will hate the U.S. So fuck 'em, that's just the way it is.


There is a legitimately elected Iraqi government. The Sunnis were invited to participate. They refused, therefore most of the officials elected were either Shiite or Kurds. Whose fault was that? The Sunnis had an opportunity to participate, but their own people terrorized them into boycotting the polls.

[CACashRefund]

Originally posted by Tesseract@Dec 3 2005, 01:09 PM

What he said, also adding another one 'in the spirit' of crossfire, English is my second language. How many do you speak?
Quoted post


if you were referring to me tesser

i speak english, spanish, and basic german

[SF1]

LMFAO!!! He said a "legitimate election"!!! :biglaugh:

[SF1]

Kabar, it doesn't matter how many paragraphs you post of nonsense that you keep recyling even after they've already been shot to peices...nobody's buying your bullshit propoganda. It's too full of holes. :biglaugh:

[hobo knife]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 3 2005, 09:40 PM
They are fighting to instate another Iran/Afghanistan where you get executed because you have the audacity to think for yourself and 9 year old girls become wives to old men. That is not freedom in the loosest interpretation of the word.
Quoted post


Sorry, dude, you are the one spitting out rhetoric. You are obviously way way into politics and reading....I can tell you probably read a lot of political material, that is true right? If you're not reading this stuff you must be listening to it on talk radio. Really man, it's so obvious that you haven't actually formed you own opinions, you just eat up everything you read. And then you spit back out on a forum.

[coffeedependency]

the question is why the US continues to use WP, which is not technically banned by arms control, but only technically. chemical weapons aren't condoned for a reason, and to glibly use a substance that is certainly as awful as those that aren't condoned, because the language of the chemical weapons convention allows it, is hypocritical.
it shouldn't be used in civilian areas, ever.
and i'm sure the only reason they're saying they use it for smokescreening (absurd? irresponsible?) is so they have the defense of intention.

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by hobo knife+Dec 5 2005, 12:21 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hobo knife - Dec 5 2005, 12:21 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Stereotype V.001@Dec 3 2005, 09:40 PM
They are fighting to instate another Iran/Afghanistan where you get executed because you have the audacity to think for yourself and 9 year old girls become wives to old men. That is not freedom in the loosest interpretation of the word.
Quoted post


Sorry, dude, you are the one spitting out rhetoric. You are obviously way way into politics and reading....I can tell you probably read a lot of political material, that is true right? If you're not reading this stuff you must be listening to it on talk radio. Really man, it's so obvious that you haven't actually formed you own opinions, you just eat up everything you read. And then you spit back out on a forum.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

I find it hilarious that not a single person has responded to anything I actually said, OTHER THAN SF UNO. Everyone has to make inferences to have any type of argument at all, even people who come out of the woodwork because they got their frat-boy feelings hurt a while back.(Also very ironic, considering college kids are usually the ones who are told what/how to think by their liberal professors, but I shall refrain from delving further.)

Well, to play along, what specific thing have I said that was regurgitated, and where did I get it from? And do you disagree with the section you quoted... perhaps the insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters are fighting to install a massive Wal-Mart chain? I watch the daily show as often as I can, but I generally don't find myself regurgitating any of that. The far right guys would not conceed that Iraq was a blatant mistake, among other things. The last book I read was "Curious George and the Iranian funded militant group Fatah's adventure in the Caspian Region." I will be eagerly awaiting your answer!

SF- You posted on the previous page of this thread that the US kills hundreds of innocent civilians, and this is wrong. But when a crowd of innocent people at a market get blown to shit, or children in a hospital are hit by a vbied, thats fine? That is how the insurgency operates, and you said yourself "They can fight as dirty as they have to". Sounds just a little bit hypocritical.

[Stereotype V.001]

"There is a legitimately elected Iraqi government in Baghdad, which fields a National Police force and the Iraqi Defense Force."

Don't forget Iran's shiite militias that are running shit in several areas while installing strict Islamic law! Stupid women, who do they think they are, talking without permission. pffffftt

[hobo knife]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 5 2005, 04:23 PM
I find it hilarious that not a single person has responded to anything I actually said, OTHER THAN SF UNO. Everyone has to make inferences to have any type of argument at all, even people who come out of the woodwork because they got their frat-boy feelings hurt a while back.(Also very ironic, considering college kids are usually the ones who are told what/how to think by their liberal professors, but I shall refrain from delving further.)

Well, to play along, what specific thing have I said that was regurgitated, and where did I get it from? And do you disagree with the section you quoted... perhaps the insurgents/terrorists/freedom fighters are fighting to install a massive Wal-Mart chain? I watch the daily show as often as I can, but I generally don't find myself regurgitating any of that. The far right guys would not conceed that Iraq was a blatant mistake, among other things. The last book I read was "Curious George and the Iranian funded militant group Fatah's adventure in the Caspian Region." I will be eagerly awaiting your answer!
Quoted post


Man...calm down. First of all you just (mistakenly) inferred something about me and why I'm even posting...appearantly to strengthen your argument...

Second, I was refering to your entire demeanor...the fact that you're so charged of conservative anger and libertarian ideals. Political propaganda(liberal or conservative) usually tries to spark some sort of distaste for the opposition.

And the reason I'm coming out of the woodwork is not because you hurt my feelings(wtf? don't flatter yourself) it's because I don't pay attention to crossfire anymore b/c it's a waste of time...and I seriously advise you to stop coming in here to vent on your political views you'd probably start feeling better in general if you quit reading books like "Curious George and the Iranian funded militant group Fatah's adventure in the Caspian Region."

...but whatever kid. Keep on proving those liberals wrong...and buying those books so you can regurgitate something in your next post.

[BURLAP]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 5 2005, 01:23 PM
I find it hilarious that not a single person has responded to anything I actually said, OTHER THAN SF UNO.Quoted post


i find it hilarious too. that's what happens when you're a dick.

[coffeedependency]

Stereotype, no one is disputing the fact that Sharia restricts liberties, or saying that it would be fantastic if extremist Muslims reigned over the entire world with nuclear weapons and IBMs. no one thinks that.
everyone is rooting for the insurgency (not me) because the war is such a farce; i mean, it's really quite obviously a fucked situation and it's not going to end happily. can you say failed state? no matter how long we stay, Iraq isn't going to be a functioning democracy. it's a fucking zoo, and Islam is full of seething polarization; politics in this country would be (and are) a joke; weapons are available, weapons can be improvised, anyone can be assassinated, kidnapped, bribed. it's pretty clear that there won't be order in Iraq for a very, very long time. and all of this because of the United States' insufficient planning, lack of foresight, arrogance, let's not forget the intelligence, et cetera. we all remember the build up to the invasion. it was insane, and as time goes on, facts emerge that only make it seem more-so. people want us out because it appears tragically futile (i don't completely believe so). the United States shouldn't have ignored/shit on the middle east for so long (diplomacy, relations); if the mideast wasn't rich in oil, they'd be treated just like Africa, southeast Asia. it's not hard to imagine why someone would sympathize with the insurgency, beheading civilians besides. but the idea is that Saddam Hussein was the only thing holding it all together (even though he and his regime potentially could have hurt the US, badly. imagine what would follow after his death.)
however you feel about these things, the United States has this shit coming.

[BURLAP]

i don't know if i'm included in 'everyone', but i'm not 'rooting for the insurgency' whatsoever.
i'm simply saying that it was a predictable reaction to an illegal, despicable military invasion.
the situation defines irony. nobody has a leg to stand on defending terrorist acts, however, nobody
has a leg to stand on defending the american invasion. and unfortunately it's a much weaker position since, as i've said over and over, the US invaded illegally and is an occupying force, basically nullifying any boundaries of 'just war'.

[coffeedependency]

of course.

and by everyone, i simply meant everyone sympathetic to the insurgency.

[dumy]

Originally posted by coffeedependency@Dec 5 2005, 06:23 PM
Stereotype, no one is disputing the fact that Sharia restricts liberties, or saying that it would be fantastic if extremist Muslims reigned over the entire world with nuclear weapons and IBMs. no one thinks that.
everyone is rooting for the insurgency (not me) because the war is such a farce; i mean, it's really quite obviously a fucked situation and it's not going to end happily. can you say failed state? no matter how long we stay, Iraq isn't going to be a functioning democracy. it's a fucking zoo, and Islam is full of seething polarization; politics in this country would be (and are) a joke; weapons are available, weapons can be improvised, anyone can be assassinated, kidnapped, bribed. it's pretty clear that there won't be order in Iraq for a very, very long time. and all of this because of the United States' insufficient planning, lack of foresight, arrogance, let's not forget the intelligence, et cetera. we all remember the build up to the invasion. it was insane, and as time goes on, facts emerge that only make it seem more-so. people want us out because it appears tragically futile (i don't completely believe so). the United States shouldn't have ignored/shit on the middle east for so long (diplomacy, relations); if the mideast wasn't rich in oil, they'd be treated just like Africa, southeast Asia. it's not hard to imagine why someone would sympathize with the insurgency, beheading civilians besides. but the idea is that Saddam Hussein was the only thing holding it all together (even though he and his regime potentially could have hurt the US, badly. imagine what would follow after his death.)
however you feel about these things, the United States has this shit coming.
Quoted post


ok, this was awesome..

[imported_Tesseract]

I'm with Burlap here. There's no sympathy involved. Every talk about this war and any war actually is about blatant facts and guaranteed horrific bestiallity from both ends. But if you wanna trace the shit and pinpoint it at some place, you're led to the first principle about everything that followed and will follow. The US army should never be invading iraq. Once you decide to ignore that simple fact you have the option of pointing fingers and debate over ethics forever.

Seriously, how do you think this war is gonna end? does anybody expect a glorious victory? over whom and over what? This war is about oil control and army lubrication and is probably only paying off for very few people that have nothing to do with any of us, the rest of you are fucked in the exact same way you always where. Only, you're taking once more the credit of being hated by even more people worldwide. The only way to justify this war to the people that pay for it and take the stigma on them is to persuade them that they're actually helping, which is something that stopped decades ago. I know how easilly you can generalise my words in the mouth of some college leftist but i aint that, i belong to the majority of people that dont live in the states where what i say is common knowledge.

[dumy]

also common knowledge to people in America (I should spell it AmeriKKKa, so the haters have more ammuntion) who don't have their head permanently atttached to the inside of their anus..

[Dawood]

except that those same Americans lips are too permanantly attached to warm cup of starbucks vanilla latte to speak up and end this madness, they lull us with our comforts, We can sit here all day and complain about this war but not one of our lily asses will do anything about it until our OWN comforts are being stripped away, thats how they keep you in your place, toby.

cushy comfortability= modern day slavery

"if you don't busy your self with the truth, you self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum

[imported_Tesseract]

Well you're right to an extend i guess but all europe is comfortable in the exact same way. I wouldnt say thats the case, we made mistakes (lots of them) and paid for them greatly, learn to live with it and learned to stop. The typical US mindframe still believes that their army is fighting for somebodies freedom. This is alot more complex than a cup of starbucks coffee. Its a matter of how one percieves his self.

To make sure we dont get in a weird situation here, i'm not under the impression that european leadership as a whole and as individual countries(especially those who support this war, the yugoslavian war etc) dont make mistakes still. The difference lies in the fact that theres always strong backlash from the people(remember just how many people protested against the iraq invasion even in britain thats Bush's N01 ally) that practically draws a line as to how far things can be taken.

[SF1]

I'd just like to say that he last grip of posts on here put a smile on my face.

Tesseract, the "Kabars" and "Stereotypes" are deffinately a minority in the US. I'm sure there's idiots like them in Europe too. But Dawood is right about how everyones too pacified and lazy or stuck in their day to day "eat-work-sleep-repeat" to speak up. It's a shame that Americans as a whole have to be judged by the actions of the government and a president that wasn't even elected in the first place.

[imported_Tesseract]

I dont wanna give the impression that i believe that every american is in favor of this war and i'm not the one to generalise. Bush wasnt elected in the first place but he was elected in the second, which is even worse. The main difference between europe and US is that the last european hillybily farmer doesnt love guns and violence and is in general more liberal than the equilivent american. How would i know that? Watching the difference between those two societies and how they react on several matters.

[imported_dowmagik]

i blaime the second election on the jesus freaks.

[SF1]

The second election was an even bigger fraud. It was straight up fixed and blamed on the Jesus freaks being told who to vote for. So many people came out of the woodwork to vote for the other guy just to get rid of Bush that they had to claim Bush got the "largest popular vote" in US history. That's impossible cause pretty much everybody hates his guts. There's already a thread on here somewhere about how it was rigged.

[Stereotype V.001]

I agree with coffeedependency's post almost all around. After ignoring Islamic fundamentalism in the Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton admins. we definitely had alot of this coming. And the only foreseeable way it can end is as an appendage of Iran, who is already putting the moves on Iraq like a drunk slut on promnight. I have been indirectly grouped as a supporter of the invasion because America's(and abroad) schools have failed to teach reading comprehension, and I dont tend to sympathize with Zarqawi's right to kill/torture(and I mean actual "cut off your head and hang your body by its feet from an overpass" torture, not fraternity like hazing that gets all the partisan types aroused while they sip their morning lattes) civilians in order to expel the crusaders. If you scroll up, I said specifically invading Iraq was obviously a mistake.

"I'm with Burlap here. There's no sympathy involved."

"C) that people who deserve their country, outgunned have to use every possible way to do so. What do you expect them to do, pull their pants down and bend over? "

[Stereotype V.001]

"SF- You posted on the previous page of this thread that the US kills hundreds of innocent civilians, and this is wrong. But when a crowd of innocent people at a market get blown to shit, or children in a hospital are hit by a vbied, thats fine? That is how the insurgency operates, and you said yourself "They can fight as dirty as they have to". Sounds just a little bit hypocritical. "
I'm assuming you missed this. Without reverting to a temper tantrum/accusing me of being kabar, or a cop, or the hybrid "kabarcop", can you answer this?

Hoboknife- So you can't find where I have been stealing my ideas from...just that I have. What a suprise. And the book was a reference to "See No Evil", which has a movie coming out based on it that has been called liberal. Maybe you meant to say "Liberal Anger"?

And I can't tell which I like more- the childish "your a total dick" burlap, who conveys his anger via spooooky skull emoticons that have angry glowing eyes...or the sophisticated, urbane burlap with the condescending posts that never actually say anything.

[SF1]

Stop twisting my words.
I said that when Americans in Iraq get kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq, then that's what they get for going to Iraq. What did they expect?
The same goes for any American that get's killed under any circumstances in Iraq. What the fuck are they thinking going to a country that we are at war with, that we are bombing, killing innocent civillians etc.? that they can just go there and chill???
Obviously our soldiers aren't making too much of a distinction between Al-Quada, insurgents, and other assorted "sandniggers"... so how the fuck can we expect the insurgents to destinguish between our soldiers, CIA, contractors, and stupid hippys that think they can go there and be Jesus???

[BURLAP]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 6 2005, 04:00 PM
And I can't tell which I like more- the childish "your a total dick" burlap, who conveys his anger via spooooky skull emoticons that have angry glowing eyes...or the sophisticated, urbane burlap with the condescending posts that never actually say anything.
Quoted post


hahaha..dude, i'm thrilled you liked my skull icon. i love that thing.
now i can't tell what i like more...you're ironic reference to reading comprehension,
you're 'i know you are but what am i?' debate tactics, or your hilariously pathetic and
predictable attempts to belittle somebody's opinions based on their icon usage.
getting back to that whole reading comprehension thing though...i never said you were
"a total dick". but that's an even better one, and in fact correct. a+ for you!

[gasfacevictm]

sf1 and i share homelands and also opinions.
bush is as big a fucking chump as husein just blanketed by media that is controlled by his supporters.

fuck this war.
fuck iraq.
fuck guantanamo.
fuck the terrorists..who by the way haven't done shit to this country since 9-11 making it possible for good government to invade the personal constitutional rights of everyone in this country citizen or not.
fuck cheyney.
fuck rummy.
fuck uncle tomasina condoleza(sp..like i give a fuck)
this country has gone to shit.
stop defending it's false leaders and stand up for your fucking rights. thomas jefferson, george washington, and ben frankilin would smack the shit outta george bush if they were around now. they all fled countries like this for a reason and it wasn't to make another one just like the one they fled.

BUSH IS JUST AS BAD AS HUSSEIN IF NOT WORSE.

modern crusades.
go democracy.

[Dawood]

I don't know man, Maybe they can't catch Bin Laden for a reason, Maybe he's on the govt. payroll. Would that be so out of question? I mean, during the clinton administration Al Qaida was portrayed as freedom fighters and "allies" in the media. I don't beleive a damn word any of them utter. Bin Laden , Bush , Hussein , Zarqawi , Rumney, Cheney....All of them are in the same boat with me.
When I was a kid, I went to a WWF wrestling show at the Boston Garden. It was the big fight between Macho Man and Hulk Hogan. We snuck in through the train station. Anyway, After the fight , Hulk hogan and Macho man were spotted in a car together in traffic in front of the garden. All the drunks ran out of the bar and started rocking the car and threatening them, Macho man came out of the sunroof and started yelling at the crowd and Hogan was driving. I was probablty 14 years old or so. I already knew it was fake , It was just to see it first hand, after this big show, at 14 , brought a reality to me. Anyway, they took the money and ran, (they didn't get mine though)

i said that to say this....All of them snakes slither in the same grass. Anyone who would involve themselves into such a shady business as politics in this day and time is automatically a snake to me. Theres no good side or bad side in this politics/war ....It's all bad.

[hobo knife]

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001@Dec 6 2005, 07:00 PM
Hoboknife- So you can't find where I have been stealing my ideas from...just that I have. What a suprise. And the book was a reference to "See No Evil", which has a movie coming out based on it that has been called liberal. Maybe you meant to say "Liberal Anger"?
Quoted post


I don't want to find where you've been stealing ideas from. I don't want to read your posts.

[SF1]

Originally posted by gasfacevictm@Dec 7 2005, 09:35 AM
thomas jefferson, george washington, and ben frankilin would smack the shit outta george bush if they were around now.Quoted post


Truth!

[imported_dowmagik]

Originally posted by SF1@Dec 7 2005, 05:11 AM
Stop twisting my words.
I said that when Americans in Iraq get kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq, then that's what they get for going to Iraq. What did they expect?
The same goes for any American that get's killed under any circumstances in Iraq. What the fuck are they thinking going to a country that we are at war with, that we are bombing, killing innocent civillians etc.? that they can just go there and chill???
Obviously our soldiers aren't making too much of a distinction between Al-Quada, insurgents, and other assorted "sandniggers"... so how the fuck can we expect the insurgents to destinguish between our soldiers, CIA, contractors, and stupid hippys that think they can go there and be Jesus???
Quoted post

"thats what they get" ????? are you kidding me? and stupid hippies dont go to iraq. they stay in the states and flip me off when i honk my horn at them for riding in the street.

[Dawood]

nah, man. I hear what SF is saying, I mean, you can't jump, (while bleeding) into a pool of sharks and expect not to get bit.....It's simple, don't be crazy.

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by hobo knife@Dec 7 2005, 11:43 AM

I don't want to find where you've been stealing ideas from. I don't want to read your posts.
Quoted post

Then why would you read and analyze all of my posts? Remember you were the one who came out of the woodwork to post something, that in the end you couldn't back up... but I suppose that is irrelevant.

SF- I did not twist your words, that was a direct quote. If you think "They can fight as dirty as they have to", that means you think its ok for them to blow up massive amounts of innocent civilian Shiites. That is one of the ways they "fight dirty". Yet you also think it is morally reprehensible for the US to kill any civilians when attempting to take out insurgents. Some would say that is extremely hypocritical. But then again, so is depicting GIs as poor dumb farm boys who got fooled into signing a contract and are stuck fighting a war for rich people when it serves your agenda....and later making them out to be deranged psychopaths who just want to kill dem dere ragheads when is serves another part of your agenda.

Mull that over for a bit and get back to me with another one of your classic responses.

[SF1]

Ther's nothing hipocritical about what I said. If the tables were turned and they were the superpower invading us you better damn well belive that I and alot of others will be fighting dirty. Red Dawn steez. The fact is that we are over there in their land attacking them. You can't cry foul when somebody fights dirty when it is you that attacked them in the first place. When did I call our soldiers "deranged psychopaths??? There you go twisting my words again you fucking NOODLE! :dunce:

[Stereotype V.001]

Yes, in fact I do get frequently beat the fuck up. Them pigz/kabarzzzzzzzz are always trying 2 inflict teh terrorsz of the police state(that I refuse to leave) on me. zzz. insert 10-15 emoticons.

And, of course its only a matter of opinion, but I think that it is quite "hipocritical" to say that some innocents should die, and others shouldn't. Also, I didn't twist your words. On the previous page, you said something to the effect of "they can't tell the difference between civilians and insurgents" and "they just wanna kill 'sand niggers'." If you forgot what you said, try perusing your insightful comments on the 2nd page.

[SF1]

You're a joke kid. Keep twisting my words nobody takes you seriously.
Why don't you join the army or something. Go to Iraq and catch a bullet for the mighty U.S. empire. Not cause I said so, do it for yourself. Put your ass where your mouth is. Or you can just sit here twisting what I say calling ME the hipocrite. :dunce:

[isor357]

dirty. Its that type shit. Shameful. Look at pictures of iraqi children with skin melting from their bodies and tell me you are proud of your country. What the fuck. Where are these people supposed to go when good old USA comes in with napalm like weaponry. White phospherous and shit. The next town? Sit in the desert with a tattered white tee on a stick? I feel so bad for those people. I have no sympathy for insurgents. fuck them. but the innocent that are just stuck in the middle. America needs to just stop the bullshit. We start these wars and destroy shit then rebuild it. It makes no fucking sense. come to detroit. drive down 7 Mile Van Dyke Harper. It looks like a bomb went off. Literally. Entire tracts of the city the look like a fucking hydrogen bomb exploded. but instead of fixing america like it they seem to think Iraq is a more appropriate allocation of funds.

[SF1]

^WORD^

[Dawood]

they already got Detroit in check, Iraq is just next It doesn't matter how many people die. Iraqis , Americans...it's all about putting them in check and everyone knows it. It's just that some people are with them and willing to support it so America can remain "free" as they say. (freedom; meaning still in control of more than half of the worlds resources while Americans get fat and people around the world starve) It all comes down to are you with them are not. , their Darth Vader emporer ass president said it himself.

[isor357]

Poverty is disemfranchisement. I substitute teach in some of the poorest neighborhoods in america. Ive seen parents beat the shit out their kids in school bathrooms. Eight year olds showing up to school wearing old size 12s and no coat. I know lots of these kids dont have money for lunch but theres nothing i can do about it. It has taken a toll on my mental. You can find me at the bar drinking that shit away.

America is rogue. We lost sight. The cost of one week in Iraq could fix homes put homeless FAMILIES in homes. Invest in local economies. I mean..... shit..... This is how America is rogue. The government is failing its own people. I see it every day of my fucking life.

I wish the govt could just be honest about its intentions. Fuck the lies. You gone do what you gone do STOP INSULTING OUR INTELLIGENCE. Get on tv and say "america i have a vested interest in natural resources and as your president im gonna look after my pockets" We should let Iraq have their little election. They have liquid currency flowing from the ground. OIL. If Saddam needs to go why dont we just slip him some Cyanide. Its not like any of this has been legit anyways. We are in war on false pretences. Its proven they cant even deny this shit. The longer we stay the more face we lose. Not that it even matters anymore.
What up SF. still chumping mufuckas in the crossfire isee

[Stereotype V.001]

Originally posted by SF1@Dec 12 2005, 09:30 PM
You're a joke kid. Keep twisting my words nobody takes you seriously.
Why don't you join the army or something. Go to Iraq and catch a bullet for the mighty U.S. empire. Not cause I said so, do it for yourself. Put your ass where your mouth is. Or you can just sit here twisting what I say calling ME the hipocrite. :dunce:
Quoted post


Join the army? SHIT!!! Why didn't I think of that!! Maybe they will give me 15+ medals for throwing a grenade in bootcamp.

Its cute you of all people telling someone "no one takes you seriously". Itz wicked police state hipocritycal of you. Also thanks for avoiding what I wrote and saying I twisted your words, even though it was a direct quote. Next post (if it isn't too much trouble) do you mind calling me out as kabar, with maybe a few extra emoticons? I miss the good ole days.

[Stereotype V.001]

"You can find me at the bar drinking that shit away."

"Eight year olds showing up to school wearing old size 12s and no coat." (Didn't you say your from socal? Gets quite chilly around there, I know.)

"disemfranchisement"

"You gone do what you gone do "

"still chumping mufuckas in the crossfire isee"

Originally posted by isor357@Dec 13 2005, 12:50 AM
I substitute teach. Quoted post

Technically not a low blow - I didn't even point out how half of your rant was establishing how you are doing god's work teaching in poor neighborhoods, like that lends you some sort of credibility.

http://www.gatsugatsu.com/wp-content/HelenLovejoy.jpg
"Won't someone PLEASE think of the children??"

[Stereotype V.001]

Seriously, how shitty is our public school system when any jackass with no understanding of the english language or the world in general is put in charge of teaching children. No wonder we have some of the worst grades, test scores, and graduation rates among the world's developed countries.

[KaBar2]

Uh, just for the record, Detroit was a MAJOR American economic powerhouse and a major destination for minority people looking for a good union job in the auto plants, a serious cultural contender with museums, ballet and all that shit, until the Detroit Riots of 1967.

Within five years, De White Devils cleared the fuck out. They took their money, their leadership expertise and their businesses and they MOVED THE FUCK AWAY from the "Mighty Motor City," and set up shop somewhere else, where people have better sense than to burn down the city because of their own shortcomings and personal failures.

So quit bitching. You wanted it Black, now you fucking got it Black, and no heartless White oppressors are there to blame all your troubles on. Since 99% of De White Devils are gone, now what's the excuse? Detroit is a wasteland because of the stupid behavior of the people that lived there. If it looks like a battlefield, that's because it WAS a battlefield. The rioters wanted to run it. Well, now they run it. Happy?

[villain]

ford was a nazi...

[gasfacevictm]

american cars are crap. that's why detroit is such a dump.

except for the brougham

[SF1]

Also the race riots of 67 were 20 years before the auto industry abandoned Detroit. But blame it on the "upity niggers" anyways! :haha:

[CACashRefund]

http://homepage.mac.com/nealemvf/iblog/C821734565/E722039236/Media/kanye.jpg

Kabar doesnt care about black people.

[PushbuttonWarfare]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Dec 16 2005, 04:06 AM
So quit bitching. You wanted it Black, now you fucking got it Black, and no heartless White oppressors are there to blame all your troubles on. Since 99% of De White Devils are gone, now what's the excuse? Detroit is a wasteland because of the stupid behavior of the people that lived there. If it looks like a battlefield, that's because it WAS a battlefield. The rioters wanted to run it. Well, now they run it. Happy?
Quoted post


No, I don't believe they "wanted it black", I believe they wanted the(historically well confirmed) abuse and harassment from the police force to stop, considering the catalyst for the riot was police officers infiltrating and arresting a celebration for two blacks returning from the vietnam war. Furthermore, you speak about it like White Flight wasn't already occuring in the city to the suburbs, all the riot did was serve to accelerate an already hastening phenomenon. Its also really cute that you seem to know that the collective black populace of Detroit got together and made these decisions, right?

[shape1369]

Originally posted by PushbuttonWarfare+Dec 21 2005, 12:08 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PushbuttonWarfare - Dec 21 2005, 12:08 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-KaBar2@Dec 16 2005, 04:06 AM
So quit bitching.Â*** You wanted it Black, now you fucking got it Black, and no heartless White oppressors are there to blame all your troubles on.Â*** Since 99% of De White Devils are gone, now what's the excuse?Â*** Detroit is a wasteland because of the stupid behavior of the people that lived there.Â*** If it looks like a battlefield, that's because it WAS a battlefield.Â*** The rioters wanted to run it.Â*** Well, now they run it.Â*** Happy?
Quoted post


No, I don't believe they "wanted it black", I believe they wanted the(historically well confirmed) abuse and harassment from the police force to stop, considering the catalyst for the riot was police officers infiltrating and arresting a celebration for two blacks returning from the vietnam war. Furthermore, you speak about it like White Flight wasn't already occuring in the city to the suburbs, all the riot did was serve to accelerate an already hastening phenomenon. Its also really cute that you seem to know that the collective black populace of Detroit got together and made these decisions, right?
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

The Racial Contract, by Charles Mills. Read it. It will explain the workings of America pretty well. It is a great example of contemporary contractarianism. It explains the underlying racial currents of the world, especially those governments based on early contractarian thought. Basically, how the proliferation of Western European imperialism during the formation of the modern political world created a global socio-political metastructure in which there are certain racial requisites to adequitely and effectively participate in society. Thus an examination of American history shows a systemic policy of racial disenfranchisement and oppression. Either way, everyone should look into it, it is a pretty awesome book for anyone interested in political philosophy.