Video Documentary Discussion: The Afghan Massacre

[soupBDC]

So here's the link to the video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8763367484184611493&q=Afghan+Massacre

And the reason I bring this up isn't because Im skeptical about the video. It's obvious it happened. Taliban troops who put their lives in our hands were tortured, sent to Guantanamo Bay, killed with their hands tied behind their backs, and all because we thought the Taliban was Al Quaida, even though most of the troops wern't even from Afghanistan. One was even American.

The question is, if and when this massacre is brought to the attention of Americans, will we ever care?
-They're middle eastern= something we don't understand.
-They're casualties of war, something we do understand, but accept as part of our war on terrorism.
-They're troops, meaning they get to die without any respect from America. Just like in this story (http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/localnews/ci_4366407) we persecute people just for being associated with "the enemy".

It's the biggest fucking double standard in america today. I'm amazed I'm not sitting in an internment camp right now for being Chinese, which I bet to the mid west is the same shit as being Japanese.

[soupBDC]

I guess im about to make this thread a twofer, since i want to ask some questions about that story (http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/localnews/ci_4366407). A German woman was a guard for an concentration camp in Nazi Germany. She said she never fired a shot her entire time there. If this is true, shouldn't we be somewhat greatful for her filling that position instead of letting it go to some guncrazy antisemite? Maybe not greatful, but why, after she started her life over in the Bay, and after marrying into a jewish family, would we demand that she's deported? Who the fuck is she a threat to?

[fermentor666]

IF it's true. Which it in all likelihood is not. 90,000 dead at that camp and she was a guard. I'll tell you right now that anyone who joined the Nazi party was an anti-semite, that was their party line. She might have changed and repented or whatever, she married a Jewish guy and had kids so probably. But she lied on her visa application and she didn't take what she had coming to her when her time came. You can't run forever.

Dozens of people get kicked out of this country for lying on their visas or having fake papers every day and they weren't former members of the Nazi party.

[soupBDC]

My point isn't that we deported her. I think it's great: my taxdollars go hunting down and dropkicking of senior citizens back to Europe. As for us deporting dozens of immigrants, She's an 84 year old widow. If this was a falsified work visa, I doubt we could make a very strong case why Germany deserves her.

To get even more distracted: the law says we deport aliens who were involved with Nazis. Whoopdee fucking doo. Did Ford get even a slap on the wrists for selling army trucks to Hitler? What's the point of sending old people to a modern Germany. Today, I see Americans delivering old people to Germany and Germany saying "uh gee thanks, what the occasion?" ANYWAY....

My point is that Americans are intollerant to german nazi soldiers and could give a fuck about what happens to them. In this case point, are we going to care about what happened to these Taliban? Will we accept that some Americans are guilty of warcrimes and need to be put on trial and convicted for their participation in the brutal slaughter of over 4,000 people? My concern is that double standard for. In America's eyes, 4,000 troops (albeit unarmed surendered and imprisioned troops) dead is irelevant when a year earlier 3,000 american civilians died on 9/11, regardless if the only thing they have in common with Bin Laden is they're Middle Eastern, and they carry guns.

who da bigots now mafuckas?

[fermentor666]

The Taliban are the ones that we were fighting in Afghanistan, for supporting Al Queda. They're intolerant bastards, also. I'd have to say that I don't find issue with being intolerant to members of the Nazi party or the Taliban.

[iloveboxcars]

if you werent part or considered supportive of the nazi party you were fucked. being a gaurd is alittle extreme but being a member allowed yourself not to die.

[Ginger Bread Man]

if you werent part or considered supportive of the nazi party you were fucked. being a gaurd is alittle extreme but being a member allowed yourself not to die.

so what you are saying is you would condone the genocide by joining the nazi party to save your skin against all your ideals?

i would rather die standing and proud than live on my knees forever hating myself

[soupBDC]

^^^
We're condoning it right now. Torture in Iraq is happening MORE than when Saddam Hussein was in power, only now we passed laws that make it legal. American soldiers are killing 3,000 Iraqis every month. We have put their country into a civil war, given up trying to achieve peace in 30% of the country and left hoping we can at least do something with the other 70%.


And no fermentor. Al Qaeda's got shit to do with Taliban, except that they're middle easterners with Ak47's. Al Qaeda's not even a real organization like the Taliban. Al Qaeda was a group sixteen men s who came together like Oceans 11, devised a scheme, executed it, then went their separate ways. That's fuckin it.

[Ginger Bread Man]

all i know is this is why im now full blown mexican so no im not condoning shit son.

feel free to no longer include me when creating statements

[HardyHarHar]

Fuck that.

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, and fuck you.

What I saw in this video is mass murder, a war crime, perpetrated by my government. Now, why would I want to support a government that does this sort of thing. Haul me away for gods sake. This is not about who was killed, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or maybe an unlucky local; this is about the crimes commited under US command. War crimes.

This video is pretty conclusive, but there is much to be discovered. The mainstream media ignores it, the criminal courts will get to it maybe never. These people who surrendered, were locked into shipping containers, and executed one way or another in the desert of Afghanistan. To defend that is to defend murder.

[Larry Pubes]

American soldiers are killing 3,000 Iraqis every month..

sorry to get off topic, but are you just taking the security issue and consolidating it into a general, black and white picture to come up with such an assertion?

[soupBDC]

You're telling me I'm generalizing this shit and you just called the mass chaos in Iraq a "security issue?"

[soupBDC]

Seriously, you don't know what the fuck it means to paint a picture in black and white. I'm just listing facts on the war, if anything I'm broadening the list of problems. 'Black and white' is what Bush did when he said this is a war on terror.

[angelofdeath]

isnt the phrase 'war crime' a bit redundant? arent most wars crimes to begin with? how is just straight up shooting someone not a 'war crime?'

[Ginger Bread Man]

^^^^^
listen to him, he speaks truth

[Larry Pubes]

whoa tiger, take the panties out from your ass crack for a second. you said the americans are killing 3000 iraqi's a month....i'm asking you if you're blaming the whole situation on the americans, which is pretty black and white whether you 'know what the fuck it means' or not. the 3000 figure must include a hefty portion of ethnic violence, NOT purely american on iraqi violence. but yo dunny, i'm willing to hear you out since you're spouting 'facts'. perhaps you can back this claim up. or you can give another empty knee jerk response.

[soupBDC]

You're annoying. You don't write based on what I type, you write on your own assumptions that come out of thin air, and when I call you on it you get embarassed and defend yourself with dumbass wedgie humor. When it comes to this discussion, you're a joke.

Where have I even begun to do anything more than correct misinformation? I'm discussing a situation and you want me to pick a side and defend it? I haven't said anything that would remotely sound like I'm picking one side over another so I don't have a clue where you're getting this shit. Stop typing. Please.

Anyway, back to the discussion:

[soupBDC]

isnt the phrase 'war crime' a bit redundant? arent most wars crimes to begin with? how is just straight up shooting someone not a 'war crime?'

If you're against war of any kind then I hope it makes you wonder what we're doing attacking militant groups of any kind, or voting for a "war-time president" since you just said that means "crime-time president."

My point to this thread was to discuss also the idea of how when we go after someone guilty of warcrimes, we use any means necessary to capture them, even if we in the process become wartime criminals. This masacre of Taliban troops may seem like nothing since it happens a lot in Afghanistan, but this time it wasn't some Afgani freedom fighter group led by some sociopath Cleric.. it was a twelve man unit of Special Op Army Rangers, and CIA field agents. They justified the masacre by claiming it was done to find Bin Laden since he gave some financial backing to the Taliban, just like he gave financial backing to several US proxies in the middle east over the decades.

I'll reiterate the value of this information: Any time someone says this is to uproot an evil dictator, or to start social reform and uphold human rights, these are facts to remove the validity of their statements.

[fermentor666]

I was thinking a little about this today, how no one in the US would get called before the war crimes court or basically any other government of a first world country. If it were to happen, it wouldn't happen for many years--well after the worst could be done.

What are the steps that must be taken to begin a war crimes trial? Who makes the decision to try the person? The UN?

[Stereotype V.0002]

You're annoying. You don't write based on what I type, you write on your own assumptions that come out of thin air, and when I call you on it you get embarassed and defend yourself with dumbass wedgie humor. When it comes to this discussion, you're a joke.

Where have I even begun to do anything more than correct misinformation? I'm discussing a situation and you want me to pick a side and defend it? I haven't said anything that would remotely sound like I'm picking one side over another so I don't have a clue where you're getting this shit. Stop typing. Please.

Anyway, back to the discussion:

In short - “your question confused me, so I am going to insult you and then change the subject.”


Torture in Iraq is happening MORE than when Saddam Hussein was in power, only now we passed laws that make it legal. American soldiers are killing 3,000 Iraqis every month
Read the report you are referencing and not just the title.


Al Qaeda was a group sixteen men s who came together like Oceans 11, devised a scheme, executed it, then went their separate ways. That's fuckin it.
Not quite, poppa-san.

[soupBDC]

Haha stereotype came back from the dead just to rip on me.

In short - “your question confused me, so I am going to insult you and then change the subject.”
Did you read what he wrote? He first jumped to an unbased assumption that i was trying to say we were bad, and they were good. Then after I said that's the complete opposite of the situation he jumps back to assuming that I was trying to say we were bad and they were good. The dude is talking to himself there. Why are you jocking me on this one?

Read the report you are referencing and not just the title.
Wasn't in the title bud, and I'm not wasting time writing out details of the reports, kinda like how newspapers are written for a ninth grade reading level because that's all the readers understand.

Not quite, poppa-san.
I know YOU know about this shit, but im not writing to YOU, I'm writing to a CH-O audience that's not exactly up on what the media's been misinforming viewers about. If you want to drop info on what I'm skimming over here then do it, that's the point of the discussion.

[--->]

Does anybody even pay any attention to this douche "Stereotype"?

[Stereotype V.0002]

All of the tubular mainstream media dissage aside, the way you originally worded “US soldiers are killing 3,000 Iraqis a month” and “there is more torture now than during Saddam” it seemed like you were saying US forces were personally doing it. I could be wrong since I only read at a 9th grade level, but I think pubic hairs was asking for you to clarify if you meant that US soldiers are themselves murdering thousands of Iraqis a month, or if you think they (the US mil) are indirectly responsible for originally knocking over the ba’athist system that prevented full scale sectarian violence. You replied with a “my pussy hurts” speech and didn't explain. So, assuming you mean the US is responsible directly, I’m just suggesting you actually read the UN report you are referencing instead of the title that you basically quoted and you will see that they are talking about sectarian killings and torture, not US war crimes.

I know YOU know about this shit, but im not writing to YOU, I'm writing to a CH-O audience that's not exactly up on what the media's been misinforming viewers about. If you want to drop info on what I'm skimming over here then do it, that's the point of the discussion.

I don’t see the point of elaborating how asinine it is to say al Qaeda is just “16 guys who got together, like oceans 11.” And any reply I could give would just be more neocon media lies anyhow.

[angelofdeath]

"If you're against war of any kind then I hope it makes you wonder what we're doing attacking militant groups of any kind, or voting for a "war-time president" since you just said that means "crime-time president."

im definately not against war of any kind, which is why i reject the anti war label. im against aggressive war that is not in self defense. im also for a war to over throw a tyrannical government that is oppressing me. so to me, i can say the 'stan phase of the war on terror was justified. the iraq war, i have become totally opposed to it. there have been 3 totally justified wars in the USA's history. the revolution, the south fighting the invading federal armies, and ww2 after we were attacked and germany declared war on us. it is interesting to note that since we have stopped actually declaring wars, we have lost every one, and we are still basically fighting every war since korea in the early 50's.

but my point is that it is absolutely retarded to 'regulate' war with a world court or some such nonsense. war boils down to killing mutherfuckers. i just think its sort of odd thats all. war is war. its sort of like some higher up decides "OMG! You totally killed that guy the wrong way! it was inhumanE!#$@^%"

[soupBDC]

- It's a fact that most newspapers write at a ninth grade reading level so to include more readers. The articles are then geared towards intelectuals on a ninthgrade level. New York times is considered one of the more sophistocated newspapers, which writes articles geared towards 12th graders. That wasn't a stab at Stereobox, since his posts in previous Middle East discussions and I would assume he would know these references. Guess not.

- It's also a fact that the news over the last few decades has felt it less and less necessary to factually validate claims made by political officials, and return later to report on developments following the initial claim. That isn't to say that in general the media can't be trusted, it's just that statistically speaking the use of objective skepticism in reporting has decreased, and nearly gone in Fox's case.

- The value of "3,000 Iraqis are killed every month" isn't to say there's an ongoing masaccre of iraqis at the hands of Americans. It's a bloodbath between Americans, nationalists trying to oppose foreign invasion, religious warlords, etc, and the citizens of Iraq are either dieing from being among these wargames. It's to say that you can't oust violence with more violence, and this "war on terror" is a horrible joke, when noone's discussing why America was targeted to begin with. America was targeted by students of a philosophy which believed that evil was seeded in our "atheistic" "individualistic" consumer culture, and that we're out to get those who have opposing more indiideologies. Those students, like Bin Laden, who were taught these things, then witnessed what looked like a US military invasion into Afghanistan a couple decades ago, and felt it just to take extremist action against the people of the united states.

-The validity of Al Qaeda being a militant terrorist group is still in question. The videos of Bin Laden walking with soldiers being trained in a boot camp has been proven to be fake. The "soldiers" in the video were local residents hired for the day and asked to bring their own guns to the set. The evidence of Al Qaeda bases in the Mountain ridges has been completly inconclusive, since we never found any "secret bases in caves." All "Al Qaeda" troops in the mountains could not be prooven to actually be with any Al Qaeda group, since the US proxie sent into those mountains was paid every time they brought anyone to the CIA. It was a situation where the proxie just wanted to get paid so anyone they found they would capture and tell the CIA that they were Al Qaeda. The CIA didn't want to look stupid in front of Washington, so they went along with it in order to look like they had this search for Bin Laden under control. The only proof that we even have of an Al Qaeda is that Bin Laden claimed 9-11 and said Al Qaeda did it.

Stereotype, you're still way the fuck out there. Like i said in every fucking post I've made thus far, I HAVENT POINTED FINGERS and because I haven't yet doesn't mean I'm about to. I'm just trying to point out the players in this game.

As interested as I am in people admitting their biases about the Iraq war, I'm more interested in facutal information that may be floating out there on the interweb with you folks.



Who's got something to say that isn't some self interested ego boosting battle of wordplay?

[angelofdeath]

woops, i just totally noticed that i damn near spelled out symbols name in my 'mocking' quote in my post above. that wasnt a jab at symbols, for the record.

[soupBDC]

AngelofDeath, you're just gung ho about violence, huh? Where do you live? I'm gonna guess Chicago, or another middle American city that could give a shit about a bunch of people in the middle east.

[--->]

Hey Soup, there's really no use argueing with this Stereotype character. I honestly beleive that he's just out to push buttons and that there's no way in hell he actually beleives the bullshit that he says. In case you havent already noticed.

[Larry Pubes]

or you can give another empty knee jerk response.

hello?
well, i'll just leave it there since your intellect is obviously untouchable.

[Stereotype V.0002]

Theres no way to say this without offending you, but for someone interested in factual information, you seem to talk out of your ass quite a bit. You just jumble together various headlines from the “move on” and “democracy now” websites, and then sprinkle in some of the vague anti-war slogans then end up with something unrelated. As much disdain that you may have for the mainstream media, an occasional varying viewpoint might clear things up to the point where you can get your talking points all straightened out. Then again, being belligerently uninformed is always KILLER!!!

[Stereotype V.0002]

- As for the rest of

-you post,

- Nationalists and 'religious warlords'? No, not really. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths are Shiite vs. Sunni. Which foreign invasion, the small percentage of al Qaeda or the Americans?

- “Students of philosophy” That’s deep.

- There is no way to argue against conspiracy theories like Al Qaeda being all faked and no bases ever really existing, that whole Tora Bora deal must have just clever digital effects from FAUX news. I could provide dozens of links that say otherwise, but they must be part of the neocon conspiracy for this “war on terror.” More like “war on UNterror!”, that’s what I always say.

- If you can give a legitimate link for any of the things you posted, especially the training camp videos just being local yokels, please do.

- Fuck da pigz. Fuck copz. SF1 4 eva. 1 luv 2pack. philly stand up!

payce!!!!

[El Mamerro]

I'm writing to a CH-O audience that's not exactly up on what the media's been misinforming viewers about.

Correction: You're writing to a Crossfire audience that's for the most part adequately informed.

You're an OK guy soup, and your input is appreciated, but you do come off a little pompous every once in a while. You're not necessarily smarter than anyone on this site.

[soupBDC]

This has shit to do with my intelligence. All Im trying to do is say that my opinions are based on some kind of objective factuality, and I shouldn't have to deal with self interested egotistical numbnuts trying to invalidate what I'm saying. Im trying to post what little information I have on the subject and trying to see if anyone else has more. I enjoy crossfire because past threads have been greatly informing, and stereotype usually adds great depth to them with his posts. I have no clue what he's getting out of the shit he's posted here.

Edit: Why are you, stereotype, and other people generalizing my statements so they can feel insulted?

[soupBDC]

- As for the rest of

-you post,

- Nationalists and 'religious warlords'? No, not really. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths are Shiite vs. Sunni. Which foreign invasion, the small percentage of al Qaeda or the Americans?
Not the al qaeda...

- “Students of philosophy” That’s deep.
Deep? I'm reffering to Sayyid Qutub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyed_Qutb).

- There is no way to argue against conspiracy theories like Al Qaeda being all faked and no bases ever really existing, that whole Tora Bora deal must have just clever digital effects from FAUX news. I could provide dozens of links that say otherwise, but they must be part of the neocon conspiracy for this “war on terror.” More like “war on UNterror!”, that’s what I always say.
Then do it, please. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not argueing with you dude, so cut the beef. I'm not into conspiracy theories based on plausable deniability, what i've read thus far is all i have to base my opinions on.

- If you can give a legitimate link for any of the things you posted, especially the training camp videos just being local yokels, please do.
It was on BBC2. You can hear about it also in that documentary "the power of nightmares."

[El Mamerro]

It's not generalizing particular statements, I'm talking about the way you come off. Look at your response to Larry Pubes' first post. It's ridiculously bitchy and unwarranted, and it set the tone for the rest of the discussion and devolved into a you vs. them thing, when you're all probably on the same page, or at least the same chapter. If you don't see that response as bitchy and unwarranted, then I'm afraid there's nothing much I can say.

[soupBDC]

I'm not going to sit here and discuss how different people can read into what I type differently. I read into the use of "black and white" and saw a term which can be vastly disruptive to any discussion even when it's used incoherantly. As similarly seen in any Bush (or Chavez) speech, terms used for their sensational connotative purposes are still functional even when entirely inappropriate. Since Pubes then used the same "bitchy" attitude, I would say it's fair game to do the same. Then you get Stereotype going after the guy who got in the last word like some episode of fucking Highlander, and now I'm having a discussion with El Mamero over if I could take it all back, what would I have done differently.

Well to answer that, I would've just said "no that's not it at all" and hoped to god he would drop it, because now the thread's bust.

[Larry Pubes]

duuuude...the context of the original post i asked you about leaves little room for misunderstanding, yet i still asked for clarification(and nicely too). did anything good come from your butthurt reply? btw, my wedgie remark was on point and entirely appropriate in lieu of your whining. in the future you can avoid things like this by writing better and assuming that most of us that frequent crossfire are concerned with facts as well and will ask for clarification and/or nitpick bullshit statements. let's move along now shall we?

[--->]

Gotta love how when all else fails some people/person resort to conescending whit in an attempt to take away from the validity of the other persons point. Fucking nerds. Whatever happened to common sense and real talk?

[fermentor666]

Gotta love how when all else fails some people/person resort to conescending whit in an attempt to take away from the validity of the other persons point. Fucking nerds. Whatever happened to common sense and real talk?



That's real rich coming from you, kid.

[soupBDC]

Alright, that's it. i'm fucking done with this thread. El Mammero, if you're reading this do me a favor and close it so I or someone else can start a new thread and repost the link. Or not. I guarentee people, not excluding myself, could talk shit like this all the way onto a page two.