Cults, Religions, Spiritualism, Psychotherapy, AA, Self Help, etc

[Soup forgot his password]

I want to know your stance on all of the above. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it overused? Underused?

I've got a lunatic as a roommate who wants me to go to the initiation of his cult called the "Landmark Forum." This is a guy who has been living in my apartment for about a month and really seems latched onto spiritualism to a point where I wonder what the fuck is going on. He never talks about himself except to say "I dated a model" "I did some modeling" basically whatever we're doing his respons is he's done it bigger and better than me, which is funny coming from a lanky software engineer who's about 15 years behind the social skill curb. I would have to do less babysitting if my 16 year old brother came to stay with me, and yet this is the guy who peaches so much about self help, self improvement, spiritualism etc.

I've made a lot of different kinds of friends over the years from different backgrounds and the one thing they all had in common was that they couldnt hide who they were. They would tell you every gritty detail of their life, never skipping a chapter, because they felt it was necessary. They needed to articulate aloud their life to make sense of it, and to make sure it made sense to other people as well. They were analytical, logical, very honest, and very generous with their time. That's my ilk.

This guy is not one of them. I feel like he's fell into a cult because he is so ashamed of who he is that he needs spiritualism to destroy any sense of self he still has. I think doing that only leads to more pain, alienation, disenfranchisement from society and ultimately more denial and self hatred.

This landmark forum thing is supposed to be for rich people who seek self help but the vibe so far (I havent gone to this thing yet) is pretty similar to when i had friends who were in AA.

Ive done cognitive therapy before for Social anxiety disorder (not that i ever had it) and have mixed feelings about any self help that is a lot of talk and not actually working on yourself. I think you're better off with a hammer than a self help book, mentally, physically, spiritually. But maybe someone disagrees with me. What's religion, self help books/seminars, spiritualism, etc done for you?


I'm wondering what 12oz things, since I'm guessing that we all can relate to this.

[McLovin]

Religion is a necessary evil. Anything to keep people from climbing in though my windows at night. People are pretty crazy and need something to believe in and guide them. Although i have my moments where i sometimes wonder myself and question whether or not there is a God.. but i do think some of the Christian/Islamic fundamentalist radicals are overly analytical mutations of what the real picture is. I don't doubt the wisdom in it and the appearance of a divine source but then you would be underestimating the unfathomable capabilities of the human mind .. I kind of had the same deal with a guy i know who was very involved with his church and the bible stuff

[Soup forgot his password]

Considering religion's just as quick to send people through your window as keep them out of it, Im not following your logic.

[Soup forgot his password]

I went to the "landmark forum" last night. Exactly what I expected. Guy stands up, talks a bunch of illusive gibberish about how if I sign up for a $500 weekend seminar I will be more aware of "things I don't know that I don't know." my goals for my life will come true and blah blah blah.

My roommate and I got there a bit late so I missed introductions that included "graduates" talking about their personal experience after going through the workshop and how their lives have improved. We got there when the leader of the forum was having a sermon about what it means to pay $500 for the workshop, how it shows commitment to improving your life blah blah blah. Then they split the guests (that's me) into two groups and have a speaker talk once again about why we should go through the seminar. He made us complete a form that was basically this:

1. Name everything that's working in your life
2. Name everything that's not working in your life
3. Take something that's not working and explain what youre doing about it
4. Now explain what you're not doing about it
5. Write down what your life would be like if you had that part of your life working
6. Write down what your life would look like if that part of your life never worked

He would call on people from the crowd to say what they wrote down, generall he would call on the guy next to me, who was a member of the organization acting like a participant in the crowd. In 3 card monte he would be the ringer.

Then the speaker launched into a thing about there's what you know, what you know you don't know, and what you don't know that you don't know. And talked about how this program would give you a sense of what you don't know that you don't know.

After the seminar was over he knew I wasnt going to sign up and spoke with me for about ten minutes. He asked for questions and I said "Everything you said tonight was common sense I've already heard before. There's a million ways to learn what you want me to pay $500 for, so my question to you is, with all the other self help products out there, why should I buy yours?" He got defensive about my use of the words "self help" and "product" and then talked about what the seminar did for him. Talked about how he hadnt been back home in ten years, and he went through the airforce, divorced his wife etc... Then he talked a little more about how the program worked.

Basically you're in a room of about 100 people who all talk about whats bothering them. They expect you to sit there, listen to other people's problems and realize that there's problems in your life that you never knew you had. Really this was for people who've never been honest and open with themselves, never been one to talk about themselves realistically to anyone else and needed a safezone so they could withtout anyone passing judgement. And then through the seminar you talk about the steps you've taken to improve your life.... But even so there's FREE group therapy sessions out there where you sit there and work through your shit. Im not about to pay $500 to talk to/listen to 100 people.



If anyone wants advice I'm full of it. Namely this: Doesnt matter what it is, you're looking for a shortcut. The hardest part about anything is realizing there are no shortcuts, only hard work. Doing the hard work is easy. Accepting the hardwork is hard.
Don't go paying $500 for a seminar that ends in something you already know, "Its now up to you to do the heavy lifting."

[McLovin]

Religion can be a good thing or a bad thing. depending on what the motives are I guess, to harm one another or to embrace one another. At least here in the states I'm more likely to get someone at more door professing there religion then having a Molotov cocktail thrown through it because i believe in something else or am an objector.. I'm not sure if there will ever be a right or wrong answer it can go either way .. though i would stay away from religions that require you to pay a fee or murder innocent people in the name of Allah.


I think your friend is a recruiter and u made the first bad move of going to his seminar but it is good that you have your head on your shoulders. He might ask you to go to more seminars or gatherings just so you can get acquainted with people its all part of the process of slowly but surly indoctrinating you

[Soup forgot his password]

Couple things. One the key word is motives. There's no such thing as a motive for the greater good. We're not a species of spiritual beings and dogooders. We're a species of motherfuckers who's gone away from beyond being muscular atheletes to spineless dickheads because that's the breed who gets all the pussy.

And two, he's not my friend. He's my smelly fucking indian room mate I'm on the verge of kicking out for his smelly fucking habits. Hair in the shower drain, can't keep his bedroom from smelling like shit, the distinct smell of bullshit whenever he speaks. I find everything about him absolutely disdainful. Which is why I made this thread, to get out some of my aggression towards this fucktard without unleashing all of it on him personally. His english "is not so good" too which just adds to my stress level.


NOW, he is a recruiter. I know that for a fact, but what annoys the fuck out of me is that he doesnt make money as a recruiter. He payed OUT well over a thousand dollars (each seminar is $600 and he's payed for at least two) to BE a recruiter, which to him is a position of prestige and accomplishment. He PAYS for the opportunity to stand in front of people and give lectures about how landmark form has helped him.

So now I have a douchebag who lives in my house and not only is messy and smelly, but his only sense of self-worth is connected to being a landmark forum lecturer, meaning I have to fucking hear his spiritual beliefs and ethical reasons why he doesnt eat meat or eggs. He actually thinks he's a better person for not eating eggs.... But he loves pancakes..... and he's too much of a pathological liar to admit there's eggs in them.


He also tells me a story about how Chuck Palanik or whatever his name is who wrote Fight Club did so after completing the landmark forum. He says this with pride, as if somehow a book about a guy telling the shiny happy polished money-making people of this world to fuck off is a glowing review for a company that sells Self help for $600 a pop.

I want to kill this kid, but at the same time I can sympathize with what he must be going through. So I don't know what to do. I'm hoping someone here can tell me a believable story about how self help fixed them.

[Realism]

though i would stay away from religions that require you to pay a fee or murder innocent people in the name of Allah.


There is no requirement to do this, not even in the radical Islamist sphere. Most of those considered "radical" in the Muslim faith tend to restrict themselves to rhetoric and keep it political.

You're thinking of a very small group of people who choose to interpret Muslim teachings as justification for jihad, although I'm willing to bet you're under the impression that's the stance held by most of the Middle East.

[McLovin]

^yeah i know exaggerated a little just to make my point regarding religion/cults/mind control whatever .. im sorry if i offended you. Although i am curious to know what you think the stance is in the middle east ?



I'm hoping someone here can tell me a believable story about how self help fixed them.

the only selfhelp that is proven to work with just about everyone who has tried it. Buy him a can of paint and teach him how to do graffitis. trust me, its a lesser evil

[eviltrailer77]

Rap letters saved my soul, yo.

[Realism]

^yeah i know exaggerated a little just to make my point regarding religion/cults/mind control whatever .. im sorry if i offended you. Although i am curious to know what you think the stance is in the middle east ?


You didn't offend me.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "stance" in the Middle East. I'm going to assume you're talking about how they feel about Westerners and militant religion and go from there.

Like I said, the militant radicals make up a very small part of the overall population. Many politicians and activists may be labeled as radical, but they stick to rhetoric, and radical religious views they hold tend not to spill over into violence.

When it comes to feelings towards Westerners, specifically a US presence, one needs to differentiate between insurgents and terrorists, only the latter of whom really throw themselves behind religious fanaticism. Groups like Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab, whatever, are of a mind that violence fueled by a religious agenda is the answer to purifying the Muslim world. This view is not necessarily shared by the general population, however they are pissed off that there is a foreign military presence on their soil and want to be left alone. They are willing to take an assault rifle given to them by a terrorist group and shoot at American troops. If the troops left, they would most likely put down the rifle and go back to herding goats.

However, things get sticky when you take into account that most terrorist organizations are also responsible for murdering Muslims to propagate their ideology, and obviously create terror, i.e. blowing up voters at a ballot box. The average insurgent or citizen is not going to cosign a terrorist group killing other Muslims, no matter how much they hate American troops. Again, they hate America because of the occupation, not necessarily because they consider Americans nonbelievers or denizens of an evil superpower. They are willing to support terrorist groups due to the convenience of a mutual goal, which is getting American troops to leave. Most of them are not going to blow themselves up or embark on a "global jihad." It's localized.

I'm not good at going beyond hilarious one liners, so if christo/fist/someone with more knowledge or firsthand experience would like to comment or chime in...

[McLovin]

What ever you do, Don't drink the kool aid







http://www.mediaoneaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/cm_cults-jones_ho.jpg



http://traceyricksfoster.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/jonestown18.jpg



http://www.altereddimensions.net/images/crime/jonestown/JonestownArielBodies.jpg



http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f181/148981d1270511147-jonestown-massacre-photos-18-november-1978-78373d1249097660-jim-jones-jonestown-mass-murder-suicide-mass-suicide.jpg



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__tedbt7kUJQ/TJa1MSc4PVI/AAAAAAAAALY/UDhHp8N_WIk/s1600/Muslims+Hold+Day+Prayer+Capitol+Hill+NXTobTKsYGal. jpg



http://youfail.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/they-live-alien.jpg

[publicenemyno.3]

i think when it comes to any of these methods of self-help, they ultimately put someone or something else as an authority figure that directs you what to do to make things better. they all make some sort of assertion that if you follow their guidelines, you'll get better. most people i know who buy into this shit never get better. it's a racket one way or another, it just depends what quack you want to give your time and money to.

[Soup forgot his password]

That's funny you mention control and authority (which I agree with you on) because at Landmark Education, after you complete the seminar you get to volunteer as a seminar leader, so you get to feel like you're now the authority figure... but you aren't, because nobody's paying you.

I had the hardest time trying to convince my roommate of this. I said to him, "What they're doing here is teaching people how to manipulate other people. Why not just call the seminar 'Learn how to be manipulated and manipulate other people' and sell it for what it is?" He seemed to agree with me at the moment, then later on backpedaled and told me I'm wrong. I said ok, whatever.

[ipod90]

Wow Soup I really dislike your roommate, That point about the eggs was the last straw. I have have had encounters with these types before and nothing good can come of it. If it were my place I would kick his stinky black ass to the curb. Fuck him. his philosophy's and his pretentious attitude. I am led to believe that in his head he thinks he's a wolf, but in reality he's a sheep just like everyone else at landmark, excepting the snake oil salesman.

You need a new roommate Soup, Your going to end up snuffing him with a pillow and doing the world a favor.

[Soup forgot his password]

There are some good things about him as a roommate. He stays in his room so its like hes only here for a few minutes, he doesnt steal my food, he doesnt own a car so the garage is all mine... And hes at least open to advice, critical feedback, etc. Im not saying he follows it but all the above makes him tollerable for the remainder of the lease.

And heres what i think. I think hes just been through some shit and needs some time to come to terms with reality. I have a feeling hes gay, since his guy friend comes over and they lock themselves in his room, being dead silent the whole time, then when they come out theres this awkward moment where theyre really interested in what im doing, affirming with me that they were just studying and then his friend takes off without saying anything to me. Nevermind the smell of lube eminating from his bedroom.

I could be wrong, but considering how hes from india (which hates the gays), talks about how important arranged marriages are to his family, and acts super friendly to me when his friend is over, i think if he was gay hed probably try to keep it on the dl.

But think about how someone would act if they had to lie about who they are their whole life. He might be attracted to landmark to "fix" or institutionalize himself. Hed also be totally fine with lying since hes had to his whole life.

If i kick him out itll be because i think hes better off somewhere else. As long as hes just covering up being gay i think its fine.

[ipod90]

Hymm... When you put him in that light he does seem to become a better roommate. I guess im
going back on my earlier comments about evicting him. He isn't that bad. I was thinking much much
worse. He's just a mad undercover fag. Just start making jokes about him blowing off his friend when
your in the house. haha

I can think of much worse roommates to have. Maybe just up his rent so you feel a little better about the w
whole situation? or just rant about all the shit he does on here. Either way laughs will be had.

[BullshitTantrum]

Anything to keep people from climbing in though my windows at night.



this

[Soup forgot his password]

Steady pay from a job fucking telemarketing is enough to keep someone from climbing through your window, so calm down with THAT as a good reason for the existence of cults, religions, spiritualism, psychotherapy, AA, self help, etc.

[cuntflaps]

If we're analyzing your room mate sounds like he is on some new age tip which itself is, imo a form of religion but the 'new agers' will claim otherwise. Whilst they may not praise a deity of sorts lets look at some of their core beliefs..

Is the New Age A Kind of Religion?

Although it may be spiritual, the New Age is far from being a formal religion. In fact, many New Agers tend to shy away from the structure and confines of traditional religious practices. But at the same time the New Age is and can be intensely spiritual. The New Age person often prefers a direct spiritual experience rather than one from organized religion.

All religions are essentially cultural institutions, reflecting the cultures that manifest them. Thus the growth in numbers of people exploring New Age topics would suggest that as individuals and as a society, we are willing to explore alternative explanations of who we are. The New Age is simply one path to choose on the road of spiritual growth. It matters little which label we put on the path, since in the end all paths ultimately converge at the same place. Everyone is searching for the eternal truths to some of life's most challenging questions, it is simply the way that people choose to go about their own search that is different. One reason the New Age path is popular is that it is more concerned with the ultimate truths themselves, rather than the process of how they are arrived at.

that was taken from http://www.salemctr.com/newage/center1.html

It's an easy alternative for those that have been through the indoctrination process of a major religion or they don't identify with one. It's ideas are often wrapped in the banner of false spiritualism and positions the believer in the same light of a major religious believer like a Christian or Muslim where as they think they know something that we don't. To me it's just a different way of feeding one's ego.

[Soup forgot his password]

EDIT: before writing the following i didn't actually click the link. I thought he was referring to people who have a sense of spiritualism without being associated with a kind of religion/cult/spiritual group. I thought he was considering "Agnosticism" or "Atheism" or just being "undiluted by institutional religions, but still feeling spiritual" as unto itself a kind of religion since, according to him "everybody's doing it nowadays." After reading that link I'm now just confused about what the fuck he's talking about.




God forbid I ever meet the author of that excerpt on the street. If I did I'd be so inclined to throw a dictionary at his face, preferably from a moving vehicle so as to at least make a decent physical impression if not a mental one.

"RELIGION" if anyone is unaware, means to bind all people by one belief. The definition he gives to "New Age" claims that it is a religion, without binding anyone to anyone else by any one congruent form of "spiritualism." In other words, as differentiated as we all are from one another by our perspectives and individuality, so is our sense of our own spiritualism. Thats not a fucking religion, you fucking idiot (not you, again, the author of the previously mentioned excerpt) and just because MORE people are seeking to understand spiritualism in their own way doesn't make it an institutionalized form of thought. That's like saying one book is exactly the same as every other because they've all conformed literature to print-form and are all found at the same store.

[cuntflaps]

Religion to me is way of controlling the masses. New ageism is an alternative for those that don't want to affiliate with an orthodox religion that involves deity worship. It comes across as focusing on individuals that form the foundation of their beliefs on spiritualistic experiences, targeting particularly atheists and agnostics alike.

[Soup forgot his password]

I completely agree. OF COURSE religion is a power grab. Religion is a grab for your soul. They're saying "pffft, you can't POSSIBLY understand spiritualism without us. you need us for guidance."

Dont you get mad when you see "atheism" or "agnostic" under "religion" on some profile category? Its such a clever and insidious way of making the world assume that you HAVE to at least be a part of some religious group, and being an atheist or agnostic is still somehow being a member of some religion. You can't just be undiluted and make your own decisions about spiritualism. SOMEONE or SOME BOOK MUST be informing you about the way spiritualism works. I'm not saying Facebook profile categories are skewing the world in that way, I'm saying religion has been around for such a long time that it's built into the very language we all, for the most part, unconsciously use.

I think that's also why I get so mad when my roommate dives head-on into some conversation about spiritualism, hinduism, or the landmark forum, because to him spiritualism isn't something you go define for yourself, its something that is either right or wrong, and he's really trying to convince me that his way of seeing spiritualism is the right fucking way.

This one time he's talking about hinduism and he says the ole "We are all connected to the universe, so when I move my finger, the entire universe moves." Which to me sounds like pseudoscience, or a misunderstanding of physics, but to him is the most profoundly true statement someone can ever make. So when I respond "No it's not." he gets even more contentious.

And one other thing he LOVES to talk about, this time originating from Landmark, is how the way you see the world is skewed by your perspective, like wearing a pair of rose shaded glasses, and that somehow that's a bad thing, and that by completing the landmark forum you'll be able to see the world without those glasses. Its like Landmark has taken all the old french philosophers who created the study of existentialism, misunderstood ALL OF IT, and then rewrote it as marketing material for their program. It's absolutely maddening.


Look at the world we live in. Its human nature to try to control as much of every-day life as possible. Someone invented religion as a way of gaining power, controlling people, and making enough money to do whatever it is they want. And don't tell me that the largest real estate owners of just about every major city in the world doesn't have enough money to end poverty, cure sicknesses, and do right by all in the entire world. But they don't, so I choose to take my time and money elsewhere.

[cuntflaps]

I

This one time he's talking about hinduism and he says the ole "We are all connected to the universe, so when I move my finger, the entire universe moves." Which to me sounds like pseudoscience, or a misunderstanding of physics, but to him is the most profoundly true statement someone can ever make. So when I respond "No it's not." he gets even more contentious.

And one other thing he LOVES to talk about, this time originating from Landmark, is how the way you see the world is skewed by your perspective, like wearing a pair of rose shaded glasses, and that somehow that's a bad thing, and that by completing the landmark forum you'll be able to see the world without those glasses. Its like Landmark has taken all the old french philosophers who created the study of existentialism, misunderstood ALL OF IT, and then rewrote it as marketing material for their program. It's absolutely maddening.


Look at the world we live in. Its human nature to try to control as much of every-day life as possible. Someone invented religion as a way of gaining power, controlling people, and making enough money to do whatever it is they want. And don't tell me that the largest real estate owners of just about every major city in the world doesn't have enough money to end poverty, cure sicknesses, and do right by all in the entire world. But they don't, so I choose to take my time and money elsewhere.

Fucking aye, nail, head.

I can't help to think that with your housemate situation he's arrived to learn a thing or two from you. Have you had a conversation with him about this stuff? Or is he so far gone that it's not worth the effort? Just curious as it seems this thread stemmed from sincere attempts to discuss this with him as an equal but I'm guessing he went off into a self indulgent rant about his regurgitation of 'higher wisdom'.

[Soup forgot his password]

The trick then becomes how to do that. I can't just talk to him straight the same way I am here, because we've established he's just a fucking talking parrot. He just repeats things he's heard. In fact, he's done this twice now where I've told a story and then on a later date he's forgotten that I fucking told it to him and then proceeds to tell the story back to me like it's his. It's the saddest thing I've ever seen.

And we've already established that he enjoys being a lecturer. He likes going to landmark seminars and pretending to be a seminar leader, when he's just volunteering and not making any money on it. And he likes to lecture to me about pseudosciences, spiritualism, and stories I originally told him..

There's also the fear that by telling him what to do he'll think I'm trying to impose my will on him, just like he's trying to impose his will on others by being a lecturer. There might be a level of contention that's best avoided there.

What I have to do is just show him that he's fine without all that. That he doesn't need to fix whatever he thinks needs fixing. Im assuming he thinks he needs to fix his closeted homosexuality, so what i've been doing is slowly trying to get him to talk about his feelings on homosexuality—Which is different than having him admit he's gay. If he can admit being openly gay is fine, and fuck anybody who thinks differently, then I think he'll stop going to landmark and live his own life, and let everyone else live theirs.

THis thread has become about how to get friends/room mates off the masturbatory loop of self help.

[McLovin]

This cult shit is big business. I need to be taking notes

[McLovin]

i watched this thing on tv sometime ago, it was about this christian sect that lives hella isolated in its own community it kinda reminds me of that movie "The Village". What do yall think about polygamy & martial law?

[yardwanderer]

it's all shit drink smoke fuck don't worry we all end up in thee same place..

[McLovin]

we all end up in the ground .. Spirituality is a way of coping with that reality. A way of taking someone away from the pressures of life. and also leads to many more questions from a spiritual stand point.. What happens when we die? Heaven/hell/a paradise of some kind. It gives hope and comfort to the one who grieves. I also think it gives us something to do. Mankind being who he is wants to rationalize everything which leads to more and more religions, cults, even wars. Though i do ask myself sometimes. WHY RELIGION? why the desire to worship something or someone? or even the desire to be worshiped or idolized? Something that is just embedded in us as humans?

[McLovin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

[McLovin]

Less Religion Means More Government

Robert Ryles

Soviet communism adopted Karl Marx’s teaching that religion was the "opiate of the masses" and launched a campaign of bloody religious persecution. Marx was misguided about the role of religion but years later many communists became aware that turning people away from religious life increases dependence on government to address life’s problems.

MY THOUGHTS...THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE UNITED NATIONS IS TRYING TO ESTABLISH.


The history of government coercion that comes from turning from religion to government makes a new study suggesting a national decline in religious life particularly alarming to those concerned about individual freedom.

The American Religious Identification Survey, published by Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., reports that we should expect one in five Americans to identify themselves as having no religious commitments by 2030. The study, titled “American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population,” reports that Americans professing no religion, or Nones, have become more mainstream and similar to the general public in marital status, education, racial and ethnic makeup and income. The Nones have increased from 8.1 percent of the U.S. adult population in 1990 to 15 percent in 2008.

According to the study, 22 percent of American 18 to 29-year-olds now self-identify as Nones. For those promoting dependency on government to handle the challenges of everyday life, as well as those who wish to take advantage of a growing market for morally bankrupt products and services, the news of declining religious life is welcome.

The increase in non-religious identification among younger generations highlights a continued shift away from active participation in one of the key social institutions that shaped this country. It may also come as no surprise, then, that according to the research firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, voters under 30 are more liberal than all other generations. When asked about their ideology, 27 percent of those under 30 identify themselves as liberal, compared to 19 percent of baby boomers, and 17 percent of seniors. Pragmatic utilitarianism, favorable views toward a larger role for government in helping the disadvantaged, and a lack of ethical norms characterize this young segment America’s population.

The most significant difference between the religious and non-religious populations is gender. Whereas 19 percent of American men are Nones only 12 percent of American women are. The gender ratio among Nones is 60 males for every 40 females.

The marketplace and society in general will both reap the consequences of high numbers of male Nones. If more and more men are abandoning the religious communities that have provided solid moral formation for thousands of years, we should not be surprised by an increase in the explosion of demand for morally reprehensible products as well as the family breakdown that follows closely behind. With consciences formed by utility, pragmatism, and sensuality, instead of virtue, we should expect to find a culture with even more women subjected to the dehumanization of strip clubs, more misogynistic rap music, more adultery and divorce, more broken sexuality, more fatherlessness, more corruption in government and business, more individualism, and more loneliness.

Alexis de Tocqueville cautioned in his 1835 reflections on Democracy in America, that the pursuit of liberty without religion hurts society because it “tends to isolate [people] from one another, to concentrate every man's attention upon himself; and it lays open the soul to an inordinate love of material gratification.” In fact, Tocqueville says, “the main business of religions is to purify, control, and restrain that excessive and exclusive taste for well-being which men acquire in times of equality.” Religion makes us other-regarding.

Historically, religious communities in the United States addressed the needs of local communities in way that were clearly outside the scope of government. For example, as David G. Dalin writes in “The Jewish War on Poverty,” between the 1820s and the Civil War, Jews laid the foundation for many charitable institutions outside the synagogue including a network of orphanages, fraternal lodges, hospitals, retirement homes, settlement houses, free-loan associations, and vocational training schools. These were also normative activities for both Protestant and Catholic religious communities on even a larger scale in communities all over America before Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal.

The reported decline in religious life is an omen that virtue-driven local charity will decline, the passion to pursue the good will wane, and Americans will look to government to guide, protect, and provide. As we turn our lives over to government control, our capacity for independent thought and action are compromised. The real “opiate of the masses,” it would seem, is not religion but the lack of it.
....


It has brought out some great arguments in ways I have never thought of before. Not that it is wrong to not have religion just that what can potentially happen if/when religion fades away, What society will be like, will something take its place, nah mean? Religion has and will always serve a purpose no matter how kooky and weird some of them are. Kind of like cops, you might hate the fuck out of law enforcement but when serious shit hits the fan you need someone to catch the bad guy. ..Religion is like a back up prevention plan when done correctly. I think because their are a lot in high religious positions who fuck everything up which causes division in the churches and discourages people.ect.ect.ect.... A world without religion is a world that is fucked in my opinion

[Soup forgot his password]

That doesnt make any sense at all. I can think of tens of hundreds of examples where religion boosted the power of the government. Not only that but religion started as the first government and created the first laws and judicial system. How the fuck does less religion equal more government? Thats like saying fewer guns means more war.

You need to read more about religion starting with mesopotamians, the indus, etc


And religions never did anything towards peace. Merchants and trade routes have always been the ones who establish peace and tollerance amongst different races and religions. Do your homework starting with mongolia. merchants cause world peace throughout history, because they protect anyone among trade routes. Not to mention most of them throughout history were muslims. You gotta look up african kings of timbuktu, the silk road, merchants of the indian sea... But the important part isnt their religion, its that they were merchants.

[nsmbfan]

I want to know your stance on all of the above. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it overused? Underused?

I've got a lunatic as a roommate who wants me to go to the initiation of his cult called the "Landmark Forum." This is a guy who has been living in my apartment for about a month and really seems latched onto spiritualism to a point where I wonder what the fuck is going on. He never talks about himself except to say "I dated a model" "I did some modeling" basically whatever we're doing his respons is he's done it bigger and better than me, which is funny coming from a lanky software engineer who's about 15 years behind the social skill curb. I would have to do less babysitting if my 16 year old brother came to stay with me, and yet this is the guy who peaches so much about self help, self improvement, spiritualism etc.

I've made a lot of different kinds of friends over the years from different backgrounds and the one thing they all had in common was that they couldnt hide who they were. They would tell you every gritty detail of their life, never skipping a chapter, because they felt it was necessary. They needed to articulate aloud their life to make sense of it, and to make sure it made sense to other people as well. They were analytical, logical, very honest, and very generous with their time. That's my ilk.

This guy is not one of them. I feel like he's fell into a cult because he is so ashamed of who he is that he needs spiritualism to destroy any sense of self he still has. I think doing that only leads to more pain, alienation, disenfranchisement from society and ultimately more denial and self hatred.

This landmark forum thing is supposed to be for rich people who seek self help but the vibe so far (I havent gone to this thing yet) is pretty similar to when i had friends who were in AA.

Ive done cognitive therapy before for Social anxiety disorder (not that i ever had it) and have mixed feelings about any self help that is a lot of talk and not actually working on yourself. I think you're better off with a hammer than a self help book, mentally, physically, spiritually. But maybe someone disagrees with me. What's religion, self help books/seminars, spiritualism, etc done for you?


I'm wondering what 12oz things, since I'm guessing that we all can relate to this.

why do you live in san francisco if you can't afford to live without a tool for a roommate?

you do know housing is cheaper in other cool places, right?



people who can't help themselves introspectively and rely on outer sources and be all extroverted about how they're helping themselves, including reading a self help book in public and/or talking about it, are fucking hopelessly lost and you should not have them in your circle.



religion is there for those who require it.

spirituality too.

[Soup forgot his password]

I live here for the job opportunities around San Francisco. The city itself and the people in it could die in a giant earthquake and it wouldn't affect me.

Also my rent is fairly inexpensive, considering the amazing location that I live in. $650 beans and my roommate covers the rest. If you ever want to crash in Walnut Creek send me a pm.

And religion at this point in history is just fucking laziness. By believing in god and following religion you're basically saying, "I could learn about things that are real but why bother when there's I can just make shit up?" I truly believe that you're setting your entire family and region back into the fucking bronze age by following religion. FOLLOWING religion. I use that word specifically because I dont give a shit if you're part of a religion because people join religions for a lot of reasons... but FOLLOWING a religion is the stupid part.

And here's the thing, nobody NEEDS spirtuality or religion. In fact, one of the longest and most economically stable and successful countries in the WORLD has, for the most part, NEVER been religious. CHINA. Those yellow little chinks are some of the smartest, innovative and generally hospitable bunch of folks I've ever met. And yes they pay me to say that, because they're loaded and own everything.

In fact let me put it this way: EUROPE throughout history has been killing eachother over religion since before there was a europe. Compared to europe the rest of Eurasia's history has been pretty fucking peaceful. Its mostly been greeks, romans, christians and catholics conquering people for money, or at least trying to. Alexander the Great nation was a fail. Rome was a fail. The crusades were a fail. Hitler's deeply Catholic regime was a fail. And european christian America is a fail too.

[McLovin]

Depends on what your definition of fail is ...... oops did i just pull a clinton with that remark? lol :P


EDIT: I thought China was always a Buddhist nation

[Soup forgot his password]

By european standards Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion. There is no god commanding people to do shit, no church making laws about what is or isnt blasphemy, no taxation on the community, no church with a pastor preaching what is good or bad, no heaven or afterlife that people are trying to get into... It's not like that. And even then buddhism only makes about a third of the population. The government is ardently aetheistic, much like America was supposed to be when it was first founded. We werent supposed to have laws that prohibited gay couples from marrying. Thats a very religious law written into the government.

Most of China just follows what is called Confucianism. Confucius, or "Kung Fu Tze" was a philosopher who made up a lot of really good rules to live by.

[Fist 666]

so my brother and sister in law are paying about $4k a piece to go to this
http://www.ellerslie.com/Home.html

and my brother quit his job (had been unemployed for almost 2 years) in order to go to this because his faith is so strong......

i'm really speechless and confused about how to react. it pisses me off how selective christians are about jesus' most basic messages, let alone reality.


family...

[Back In 88]

it's all shit drink smoke fuck don't worry we all end up in thee same place..

Amen. Don't sweat the small stuff

[Soup forgot his password]

I just wanted to add to this thread that I never kicked my roommate out, that he's not an all around terrible guy, and that in actuality he's a pretty good roommate. Through him i've met a lot of other first generation Indian immigrants and I've gotta say he's the most outgoing and willing to do venture outside of the cultural indian norm. He doesnt get pissy or do annoying petty things that a lot of my previous roommates do.This could be for a few reasons. He could just not understand the dinosaur shitpiles of sarcasm I throw his way every day. He could just be from a magical place of acceptance and understanding. He could just not be a selfish whiny american. His sikh religion might've taught him to be more understanding than your average american. OR, it could be because of the landmark forum, which he claims has made him into the more outgoing, accepting and competent person he is today.

I'm just gonna leave it at that. And I'm not gonna judge anyone who at least checks out Landmark for themselves. ESpecially if they report back and post their experience.



I also just wanted to add a few things about Christianity, which really is so fucking similar to Islam it's retarded that American christians would hate the other.

Christianity and Islam are so similar that some Muslims actually read the bible and accept christ as the son of god. In the Quran Jesus is a prophet. They both have the same code of ethics, both proselytize in the same way, both support charity in the same way. In fact Christians and Muslims have lived together for thousands of years and this bad blood didnt start until American Texan Christian Politicians like Charlie Wilson fucked up relations.

I know a lot of americans believe that quran believes in supporting terrorism, but believe me Charlie Wilson did more to fund terrorism than Bin Laden.

If you are an american christian and you hate muslims you need to rethink some things.

[Walter White]

look at this dude thinking his christ and his followers..
http://youtu.be/W2Cv5hZfOmk

[Soup forgot his password]

I watched that before, and what shocks me is how Vice is so fucking stupid to have missed the biggest thing: No use for currency, no capitalism, no drugs, and a god-like leader? That's fucking Stalinism, Communism, Socialism, etc. People misuse he term "atheist" all the time. If you worship a dictator, you're not a fucking atheist.

I want to punch Vice journalists in the face so fucking for their anti-intellectual pseudo-gonzo crap reportage.

[McLovin]

Does anyone have an opinion about what happened to the folks in waco texas?

[Fist 666]

what happened in waco has nothing to do with cults.

[Friend of The Devil]

I personally feel that people should be allowed to partake in whatever religious and/or spiritual practices they wish as long as it's not hurting another individual or groups of individuals. In China there's a lot of oppression against a sect of Quigong that became popular at the beginning of the 90's and the Chinese government is jailing, torturing, mutilating, and even murdering people for practicing it. Jail sentences of up to 18 years and removal of internal organs for practices of peaceful meditation.

[McLovin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKQLbFfRF4s

[aqua17]

New agers arent any different from religious fanatics...any obsession beyond self can lead to the same irratic or irrational behavior. Some of my "new age " friends and acquaintances are pushy with their beliefs and views just as much as religious nuts. Extreme in any direction is a no-muthafuckin-no.

I'm all for spirituality, I believe in God but ultimately, just don't be an asshat and be kind, and love others.

Cults are kind of cool to study though...

[McLovin]

Great interview with ex-moonie Steven Hassan http://theunexplained.tv/paranormal-podcasts/edition-103-steve-hassan

[CancerDancer]

the thing i respect about religion is that almost everyone who participates in it feels at home.
they have something to look forward to in life and can go to it anytime they want.
the same reason why i see some religious people more happy than non religious people.
i know religion creates narrow minded fucks but who gives a fuck if theyre clueless on whats going on if theyre happy thats all that matters.