RETALIATION!!!

[imported_Raels]

A lot of people are talking about/asking for IMMEDIATE retaliation by The American Government. I'm no Political Scientist or Military Strategist but this seems to be the stupidest/most self-defeating solution to what's happened.

Acting on this right away without careful consideration of every possible future outcome and effect could mean the start of World War 3 or even worse. The intentions and specific motivations behind this whole f**ked up tragedy are still unclear. For all we know this "move" could be intended as a catalyst for FURTHER ACTS of terror (or war) that have been planned to follow directly behind this one.

Don't underestimate the people who did this.

Personally, I think everyone should take into consideration that running out and "turning some third world country into a parking lot" will do nothing but strengthen the existing hatred of America that motivated the WTC & Pentagon crashes in the first place, not to mention the fact that more innocent dead people will help no one. Somebody WILL pay for this, but if it's the wrong people paying then the fire grows stronger against us.

This is the time for serious STRATEGY, not reflex. One false move could be suicidal for our government & those who support us.

..Just some thoughts about what's going on & how it might affect us. Everyone stay level-headed and pay respects to the recently deceased as well as the Middle-Easterners in your area.

[imported_KASTsystem]

we have to respond.
but it's very important that we are sure of who our enemy is.

the biggest problem is the kind of war this will be. we can easily attack and level pakistan or whatever other country is determined to be the enemy...the problem with this is that our enemy is not a country, but terrorists. and these terrorists are already in NYC, DC, and all over the US (not to mention the world). They are trained to assimilate and not "look like terrorists." And once we make an attack, i assure you the terrorists in this country will instinctively retaliate.

we shouldn't fear military attacks from foreign countries...we can handle that.
we need to worry about a much more dangerous and unpredictable attack from unknown terrorists.

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

[imported_Raels]

Originally posted by KASTsystem:
And once we make an attack, i assure you the terrorists in this country will instinctively retaliate.

This is basically how I feel. Terrorism is a relatively new form of war that we aren't fully prepared for. Our vulnerabilities here are obvious, and easy to take advantage of.

What a frustrating situation.

[seeking]

Originally posted by Raels:
Terrorism is a relatively new form of war that we aren't fully prepared for.

we lead the world in terrorism. its our sense of denial thats not fully prepaired.

[imported_KASTsystem]

Originally posted by seeking innocence:
we lead the world in terrorism. its our sense of denial thats not fully prepaired.



seeking, please explain.
i personally disagree with you.
we do not physically attack any other countries...at the most, we financially support other countries, particularly Israel.
I don't define that as terrorism.



[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

[seeking]

Originally posted by KASTsystem:
we do not physically attack any other countries...at the most, we financially support other countries, I don't define that as terrorism.




osama bin laden hasent physically blown anything up, all he's done is fund it. is he still a terrorist. do some research bro. find out who trained bin laden.

[HESHIANDET]

unkie sam

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stonecutters#1

[imported_KASTsystem]

Originally posted by seeking innocence:
osama bin laden hasent physically blown anything up, all he's done is fund it. is he still a terrorist. do some research bro. find out who trained bin laden.



yes, he is a terrorist.
he trained them. he funded them. he supplied them with everything they needed.
they look up to him as their spiritual leader.

i don't think anyone trained bin laden.
he is an extremist with a lot of money and is capable of carrying out his own political ideaologies.

america, on the other hand, is not creating havoc in other countries because of their extremist (or even conservative) views. we are not attacking countries and forcing capitalism, democracy, and freedom on them.

you're entitled to your opinion, but you still have not supportted it. all i'm asking is for an example of how america is a terrorist nation.

[imported_Seym1has2no3fiends]

Didn't the U.S. train Bin Ladin? I could be wrong though... but uh... either way, I aggree with raels!

[imported_KASTsystem]

Originally posted by Seym1has2no3fiends:
Didn't the U.S. train Bin Ladin? I could be wrong though... but uh... either way, I aggree with raels!

i know the U.S. trained a lot of the hijackers. i don't know if we trained bin laden or not...maybe. either way, we didn't train him with the knowledge or expectation that it would be used in terrorist attacks or against us.

[seeking]

dude, im not even gonna go through it again. your really have absolutely no idea about things. and im not saying that as insult, its just the truth. do some reading man. read through the threads relating to the recent incidents, theres alot of good info there.

we trained osama bin laden and his followers. we taught them espianage, torture, military tactical planning, as well as supplied them with weapons, money, and the intelligence to use it efficently. we went into niceragua (or was it panama, i cant think right now) and not only killed some tens of thousands of inncoent people, but we put a puppet regime into office that was arguably more corrupt than the one we took out. do your homework man....

[imported_javier yardbirds]

Originally posted by Seym1has2no3fiends:
Didn't the U.S. train Bin Ladin? I could be wrong though... but uh... either way, I aggree with raels!

In the early 80's the CIA gave weapons, secret weapon technology and billions of dollars to rebels in Afghanistan that were fighting the Soviet occupation.

I'm not sure if Bin Laden was a direct recipient of what the CIA was giving out, but he was a part of the revolution, so he was a recipient in one way or another. Many weapons his terrorists use, I'm sure, were at one time US Military property.

[imported_KASTsystem]

seeking,

i don't know why you have to be so condescending...

i never professed to know everything about all of this.

i'm trying to respond as calmly as possible.
i feel that i've done nothing but try to contribute to an intelligent and thought provoking conversation. if you feel that i stated wrong information, i will gladly hear, listen, and learn from your argument provided it has supportting info.

i am a reasonable person. i understand the need to know before i speak. that is why i have so few posts. i only post when i feel like i have something to contribute. if you ever disagree with me, i'd prefer that you did so in a non-insulting tone...i won't hear it otherwise.

thank you.

(if you're curious as to what i'm talking about, it's comments like "do your homework man" and your obvious frustration with supplying info: "dude, im not even gonna go through it again...")

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

[imported_KASTsystem]

Originally posted by javier yardbirds:
In the early 80's the CIA gave weapons, secret weapon technology and billions of dollars to rebels in Afghanistan that were fighting the Soviet occupation.

I'm not sure if Bin Laden was a direct recipient of what the CIA was giving out, but he was a part of the revolution, so he was a recipient in one way or another. Many weapons his terrorists use, I'm sure, were at one time US Military property.



thank you for responding and informing in a constructive way. this is what makes the posts worthwhile and intelligent.

[beardo]

id say seeking was pretty civil and informative man.

[seeking]

i wasnt trying to insult you, it was the truth. you really have no clue. which is fine, theres a million things i dont know, but why tell me something, and begin to argue, when you realize before hand that you have no clue about the matters your discussing? im sure you are an intelligent person, and i didnt mean to offend you. i just dont understand why you would claim someone was wrong, when your only basis for argument was none.

[imported_KASTsystem]

Originally posted by beardo:
id say seeking was pretty civil and informative man.

ok...

i apologize for any ill feelings.
this whole event has everyone very emotional, including myself. i'm sorry.



[This message has been edited by KASTsystem (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Smart]

yeah, Usama definately sat in our training camps, we actually set up some of those base camps we sent the cruise missles into, he was 'our boy' for a while... we also trained Sadaam Hussein... americas problem isn't finding dogs to lie down with, we just don't seem to want to shoot them when they become rabid

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2 Can Sam

[imported_KASTsystem]

seeking,

i appreciate your reply, so i'll consider this specific issue squashed.

but i'm still asking, (out of complete ignorance...but i want to learn more) how is the U.S. a terrorist nation?
please don't be frustrated with me...i really can't comprehend how we are a terrorist nation, so please inform me...i'm willing to listen.

thanks for your patience with my previous outburst...

[seeking]

and again i'll say, do some reading. im not gonna sit here and hand feed things to you, id rather you looked em up yourself and then saw it as unbiased.

do searches for 'school of the americas' look into the panama invasion, the iran contra scandal, south american and columbian 'war on drugs' anything dealing with manuel noriega. there is a ton of info out there and im not real good with names and dates, but trust me on this. look into the chile, and the events surrounding the chiquita banana corporation. read up on the facts surrounding the start of the vietnam war and the bullshit that we added to that event. and finally, ask yourself one question, if we are so innocent of such things, why, for the first time ever, did the UN kick us off the 'human injustices' board?

[boogie hands]

look....regardless of who trained who, what weve done to others and what others have done to us the fact of the matter is that in most cases past, present and future the lives lost in these conflicts were the lives of people that had no say so or bearing in these situations....these types of retaliations are what have gotten us to this point we are at today, instead of focusing on the problem they (the US included) focus on the things closest to the problem and then proceed to say "did you see that, thats what we can do to you"....it doesnt get us anywhere....its really disturbing to me when assasination of a admited terrorist is something we would never think of doing yet killing innocent people continues to be a perfectly acceptable (in the eyes of the goverment)part of war....

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brick, brick ,brick...thats how i be up against your girlfriends ass...

[imported_muthafuckinfatso]

now is not the time to lay quick judgement and blame. i hope to god america doesn't strike without doing major research. one american leader said "bomb the hell out of them." who is "they" anyway?

[imported_TheGarbageMan]

yea my mom told me today...im ukranian but i was born here and my dad was too but his parents came here. My mom came here long ago when she was liek 18. She told me today about the thing in the early 80's. Many young 18 17 16 yr old guys died in the soviet union and ukraine which was part of it. Many innocent people were killed. All because America supplied Afghanistan with powerful weapons, which, at the time, the Soviets could not afford. An now look. Those heartless bastards turn, as they have before, and spat in our face. Many people do not know this. We were allys with them. They are fuckin backstabbers, and Osama is a coward who is too much of a fucking pussy to show his face. I hope he fuckin suffers just as he has made our WORLD suffer. And now we ask so many of the nations we have hurt in the past to come to us in aid. And sure enough, the Russians and everyone else has our back...

[seeking]

"They go into villages. They haul out families. With the children forced to watch, they castrate the father. They peel the skin off his face. They put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch, they gang-rape the mother and slash her breasts off. And sometimes, for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.
This is nobody's propaganda! There have been over a hundred thousand American 'Witnesses for Peace' who've gone down there, and they have filmed, photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they've happened, and documented thirteen thousand people killed this way -- mostly women and children.
These are the activities done by the Contras. The Contras are the people President Reagan called 'freedom fighters.' He said: 'They are the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.'

the contras, if you all have forgotten, where the guerilla forces that we armed, trained, funded and even named. they were our answer to the government in nicaragua. the above statements were written by a former AMERICAN CIA leader in latin america.

read mroe here... http://www.thewinds.org/archive/war/a102896e.html ('http://"http://www.thewinds.org/archive/war/a102896e.html"')

[seeking]

another thing we did was supply the iraqi army with weapons and support during their war in the 80's with iran. a war which left over a million iranians dead. we continued to support them even after the war. then, a year or so later, kuwait starts flooding the world with oil (figurativly, not literaly) this starts bringing prices down, and messing with iraq's economy, as well as gas prices around the world. SO, saddam then decides he'll take kuwait over and stabalize his countries economy. america, all of a sudden so interested in the democratic freedom of kuwait (a country who was never democratic to begin with, and is still not to this day) decides they must intervene. well, we all know what happend after that. iraqi soldiers surrenderd in nearly every confrontation on record, more US soldiers were killed by friendly fire and accidents than by iraqi soldiers, and we dropped bombes on hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. in the ten years sicne the war, we've had trade embargos against iraw. this means they can not get outside food or medical support. these embargos, which effect NO ONE BUT INNOCENT CIVILLIANS have murdered more than a million women and children in iraq. the embargos, which were put in place and maintained by the US governement.

just thought you might like to know a couple things your governemnt has done in the last 20 years.

[imported_Raels]

Originally posted by seeking innocence:
we lead the world in terrorism. its our sense of denial thats not fully prepaired.



This is a pretty good point (while I don't entirely agree with it), but the "preparedness" I was pointing too is our own capability for defense against domestic 'surprise' attacks of such a violent nature. Obviously our gov't does a lot of questionable things around the world, this is an undeniable fact. We are full of corrupt corporate mentalities and greedy self-centeredness, but tell that to all the working class people who died on Sept. 11th. If this situation goes unanswered than domestic terrorism has revealed itself here as a deadly achilles heel and the U.S.A. is f**cked.

Right now these terrorists have the upper hand. How many American "radicals" do you know that are willing to dive bomb the streets of the Middle East? How many Middle-Easterners do you think are willing to dive bomb the streets of the U.S.? The scale is tipped in their favor - we aren't prepared here for the type of game they play.

Hopefully our current administration will make intelligent decisions, weigh all the options and avoid killing innocent people.



[This message has been edited by Raels (edited 09-13-2001).]

[LUKY]

helping people defend themselves against oppression is a lot different than sanctioning terrorism. training partisans to blow up soviet tanks does not make the US terrorists if the soviet tanks were on foreign soil killing innocents. seven hundred civilians died in the andarab bombing in 1981 in afganistan, bombs dropped by tupolev jet bombers. are we terrorist because we gave them missles to shoot down these planes? get a life, if you hate america so much suck my dick and move to afganistan you slimy piece of crap, this is what we get for helping people defend themselves.

[boxcarwilly]

this post is amazing. amazing.
seeking is thinking how i die for the rest of the US to think. this is amerika's fault. and yes its easy to place blame. it is real easy to point fingers. but we leave trails and enemies at every turn. we make friends and the stab them it is karma.
i am not sounding educated right now my mind is fucked. i have been skimming news reports and feeling out how quickly i need to get the fuck out of dodge before we become a straight out police state. it is happening. it really is. nazi germany references abound.

[LUKY]

remember that the hard core right used excuses like this one to instate the hardline governments in afganistan and iran, i really hope it could never happen here...

[LUKY]

oh and two trains collieded in utah with beteween 100 and 300 people on board. this is turning out to be the worst week ever.

[cracked ass]

Um...things got off track. I was gonna say I agree with Raels about retaliation. I'm gonna pass on how clean or dirty the US's hands are, except to say dirty.
Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. The US will take the time to find out exactly who's responsible and who helped with funding and sanctuary. Then those people will die. It is actually to Bush's political benefit, in the longer run, to get retaliation right, or at least mostly right with enough PR to cover the slightly off part. I'm not worried that Bush will fly off the handle and blow up the first likely target, he's already too self-conscious about how incompetent he looks as commander-in-chief.

[LUKY]

i totally agree with you skullfucker, but its all a bunch of degrees, im sure that i would want to defend my country using any means necessary, but crashing into a commercial building is an overt act of terrorism. if we do this right, eg. trying those who are suspect in the bombings and putting them in jail, or in the chair, than we dont hurt any innocent people in the horribly impoverished country of afganistan, a country where women who wear nail polish get thier hands cut off...

[seeking]

Originally posted by LUKY:
helping people defend themselves against oppression is a lot different than sanctioning terrorism. training partisans to blow up soviet tanks does not make the US terrorists.

no, but creating guerilla armies where they were not (int eh case of the contras) and backing them as they kill tens of thousands of innocent people is an act of terrorism. arming and giving further training to known terrorists (as was the case in afghanistan)is incredibly bad, bad planning. giving arms, money and support to a corrupt and evil dictatorship like iraq, is tantamount to supporting a known terrorist. dropping bombs on innocent people in panama, killing some 30,000 people simply so we can take a president out of power, put him in prison, then put a dictator of our liking in his place, could quite likely be seen as an act of terrorism. and infact, lets look at that one. manuel noriega was never really believed to be directly involved in the drug trade. he knew it was going on, he took money in bribes and he allowed it to happen, but he had no actual part in it. so then, we take him out (after we trained him in espinage, tortue etc. at our school of the americas in georgia) and we put a dictator in his place (i believe his name was ford) this man is said to have DIRECT ties with the drug king pins. now, you tell me how all of that is just fine, dandy and ok with you? another note on noriega, two seperate times we could have taken him out without excessive military effort, but at the last second, we reneiged on promise to help the couping parties within panama. twice, we could have gotten him, but at the last second just didnt... we just let him get away and our allies be killed. then, finally we demolish their country and set him up in a plush jail here in the states. to this day, there are still thousands of people living in old airforce hangers because we refuse to help rebuild the land that we destroyed. these are neighborhoods were talking about. tell me again how those innocent people deserved to die.

[boxcarwilly]

seeking we really need to kiss.

you are the most sane person who has posted in the last week. i have with your permission used some of your statements my energy was wasted in my media posts on a different site i gave you credit, i just couldnt think and it was on a related topic.
good stuff seeking.

[seeking]

naw, bigpoppa, nise, see phore, raven, cracked ass and many others have said some good stuff too. its just something im incredibly passionate about, so i have alot to say. im glad that you found something in it. feel free to use it anywhere you can.

[boxcarwilly]

take alook at my media discrepencies post to see where i have been spending time thinking i am so shot so here is my conversation with an sppon fed american... thought it apllicable.

me: yeah, i agree i didnt mean to come off as cold... i was just upset by alot of stuff going on... mainly the corruption and finger pointing that the media has aimed at

me: three well known mosques were firebombed because supposedly this was masterminded by the al qaeda which in fact it may have been funded but it was most performed with american knowledge and yeah i sound like a conspiracy theorist but....

them: BUt these people kill their own


me: and we do too...

them: We kill our own people like that?


me: it just isnt well documented or even believable... mainly it is the hypocrisy that has been shown in this whole issue that is getting me

me: tuskegee airmen. desert storm. countless failed seal team missions. insecticide testing. and dare i say aids
those people are all dead because of america.

them: Listen I have read behold a pale horse etc,,,, i know about all teh conspiracy theories, but i think there is a rediculouse extreme to that

them: You have to think logically as well...
you cant just believe everything you read.


me: who was rejoicing in the streets when we bombed japan... and now you have amereichans ready to string up any towel head on the street....

them: i know a lot of shit goes on in America... but that does not make this right

me: because of their dancing to the stab at american tyranny

them: Who was dancing in teh streets? Tell me


me: i never said this was right i said it was coming....
americans loved the fact that we abombed hiroshima... we had parades

them: Your crazy.... really,
i dont know anyone who rejoices over that

me: think ww 2 we had ttickertape parades
we had chinese godamn concentration camps...

them: YEs, that was a WAR.... government against gov.
They tried to kill us we tried to kill tehm

me: we had asians not being able to walk down the street and this same fate awaits "sand niggers" because of supposition.

them: THis is my point.... you are to one sided


me: this has been war too... two days ago we bombed iraq....
well it was four days ago...

is that not an act of war?

them: Yes, why, because we are a free country...
THey dont even let us over there

them: get your facts straight, look at the whole picture....

me: so the whole world has to follow americas accord or false accord?

them: Dont try to act as if yo uknow more then me, nothing you are telling me is new news.


You know what y, you would not know what to do withyourself if you lived in that country

You would not even be allowed to express these views

We let everyone into this country.....
If you went to Afghanistan you would be terrorized and followed around just because you are white.

anwyay, i have had enough

me: im not being condescending at all but amerika has been at war for years with terrorists and with oil rich countries acts of war that were clearly defined in the geneva conventions are broken everyday by our angelic government. the same govern met that allows me this opinion

hmm... i should have ended this conversation before it started. because i knw it would go nowhere i was just trying to show what the average amereichan householder thinks.

[imported_dr. frink one]

I don't know, I just feal really disillusioned right now. I am really in awe of the things our country has done, and the lack of media attention there is whenever WE do horrible shit...
I had done my share of reading on these subjects, but I guess it never really really hit me till about tonight...i don't know what to say.

[Ski Mask]

I've mentioned the book many times here before, but I'll do it again now as its especially relevant to this discussion. Go read "Killing Hope" by William Blum. its a well researched history of US military and CIA interventions since World War 2. The US has pulled lots of shady shit as far as funding and training terrorists and butchers across the world. But just as I dont want innocent civilians to pay for the actions of a small lunatic fringe, I wouldnt wish any harm on US citizens for the actions of their government (those actions often being unknown to the public for decades).

[freddy kreuger]

as far as retaliation...
the more i think about this the more helpless it seems. im not looking at this from a non-violent perspective in the slightest, because if blowing an offender to smithereens would stop all of this, i'd be plenty satisfied. unfortunately it's not that easy. bin ladin is allegedly under house arrest in afghanistan, but who the hell's supposed to believe that? obviously not anyone on this forum. suppose the afghani's weren't willing to give bin ladin up, and it was possible we could take him out in a bombing attack of the country. sorry people, but i'm all for it. thing is, that's not how it's going to happen. i'm sure he's plenty safe in some underground bunker as i type this.
so what do we do? well, first off, let's take a look at out commander in chief. i believe i listened to the 3(was it 3?) speeches he gave and i gotta say, the man is an idiot. president bush said something along the lines of "this is an act of absolute evil" im sure that's not exact, but what im getting at is obviously these islamic extremists were not sitting in their camps plotting this for the sole purpose of raising hell. they are doing this because they feel they are doing good. this is all over religion to them. these people think that all the terrorists who died in these suicide attacks have gone directly to paradise. my point is if the president fails to publicly recognize their motives, i don't see what progress can be made. sure, even if we did take the time to listen to what their "demands" (which i assume have to do with our support of israel) hapen to be, it wouldn't do much more help, but what are our other options? bombing to shit a country that is already in shambels and not killing the one man(or group of men) who are the only ones we want dead?
suppose we do bomb afghanistan. do we use nuclear weapons? i dont think that would be the greatest idea in this time. it's not necessary, and we don't want to be the ones to open the door to the usage of nuclear arms in this age. the more i think about this the worse things look. all i think we can do right now is continuing to focus on prevention of another attack. we've done a commendable job on that today. (the 8 we got in the new york airports today, and 4 more i believe in miami) let's all just hope that hijacking airplanes is their only means of attack here. because if they've got anything else up their sleeve like anthrax for instance, we're really fucked.

[imported_OSCAR]

ANyone who wants to understand american politics and where we stand internationally neds to read naom choamsky. He is a a political sciance profesor at MIT and has a very god understanding of why things are the way they are. I suggest that people who are new to international politics pick up the trilogy... it is three short small books that give a general overview of US politics since ww1. read learn and question. this guy knows his shit. he also has many more in depth books if your really into this sort of thing but the trilogy is ment for the average reder to understand and can be picked up t your local book store in the current events section
peace to all
and may this not become the start of what it is apearing to be.

[imported_Raels]

Originally posted by freddy kreuger:
president bush said something along the lines of "this is an act of absolute evil"

I wonder if the president even wrote those words himself? He has a magic way of making even intelligent things sound stupid (although his speeches didn't sound too intelligent). I think right now he's doing ok though, what's really being discussed behind closed curtains is probably something Americans don't want to hear.

But about retaliation..

Something like anthrax could be devastating here in America. (*Imagine if the terrorists had carried chemical agents with them on those planes -- the entire tri-state area could be dead).

We have to strike back hard at something , if not we lose a huge amount of "face " as a nation and risk our own future, but I doubt anything will change as a result.

Kill Bin Laden (if he is responsible) and another Bin Laden will pop up. He deserves whatever he gets by all means, and should definitely feel the effects of his actions, but "it" won't be the end of anything.

Something else needs to be killed here, maybe certain mentalities or policies?



[This message has been edited by Raels (edited 09-14-2001).]

[imported_the last slave]

...War is ugly. it was never meant to be pretty or perfect....

-please read,
well i've been reading posts on this site about this whole incident for about an hour or more. And I can see how both sides have a point. But in situations like this noone is totally right.There is no perfect solution to this problem.Whether you retiliate or not there will still be blood shed.Innocent people will still die.Even if you kill/caputure Bin Laden or whoever is responsible for this it wont stop there.It will only created angrier Bin Landen followers. There is little we can do about this problem.The hatred is already built in those who did this and thier followers. If the US decides to be less aggressive and decides to increase security instead of retaliating. Terroists will feel as if the US cant hurt them or something along that line. Pluse citizens will lose the freedom they had before(means more whiners) and the tighter security still wont garuntee safety. Now, if we attack we end up killing more people and risk making more eneimies.Its all a big gamble. By attacking we can only hope to scare the terrorists but from seeing that these people risk their own lives i dont see how far that'll go. So, like i said before there is no real solution to this problem one way or the another more innocent people are going to die whether they be Americans or whoever.

just my opinions...im not 100% right in everything i say so feel free to correct me

[MUNE]

the other thng i dont think freddy mentioned is the fact that usama is a god over there.
by openly tramping through and taking him out we creat a million more of him. there needs to be tact here. usamas is there hero. pakistanis have already put there government underpressure to NOT cooperate with the americans.
they have to tread lightly. part of the pakistani millitary and a great deal of the population supports binladen. and thats not even afganistan.
thats just a country we are requesting fly overs from.
and he has shit loads of supporters in THIS country that are equaly zealous over him and were asked to be here years ago for this reason specificaly.
if we act impulsively we can have a royal shit storm right on our own streets.

retaliation?..yes. but the most importnat thing is tact. it has to be done with superior tact.

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"Rain, it's rain again, rain down on my parade, i'm wrong you're right it's not what you would do - walk one mile in these shoes..."

[imported_KASTsystem]

seeking...thanks for the info and the link.
i'm looking into that stuff. i know america has some pretty dirty hands in this whole mess.

to all:
back to the discussion of retaliation.
i honestly don't know what the best option is. if we retaliate, we will probably be safe from foreign military attacks...our coast guard would most likely prevent anyone from getting through...but we definitely will not be safe from (very near) future attacks from within the country.
on the other hand, if we don't retaliate, there will still be future terrorist attacks on us, but there may not be as many, and they may not get as out-of-control.

who knows what's gonna happen...they just arrested 10 people at two(?) aiports with knives and fake IDs.

whether we retaliate or not, we are not going to be safe from these kind of attacks in the future.

[23578]

man, i don't have the time right now to read all of this, but, um cracked, you say you agree with raels about retaliation, he said retaliation needs to be hastened, you didn't, thus you don't agree with him.

i don't think we should retaliate, unless we get that stupid "can't assassinate terrorists" thing repealed. what's the point of killing innocent civilians (kind of like blackmail or something, i don't get it, i don't think those backward ass fucks much care about what happens to the common folk either). they're all about keeping their the selfish money grubber ways and keeping their slick oil sheik's relative, really puts a face out there so they stay loyal . just the same as us and our multi-national corporations, most likely they're not saints or martyrs like they've caused some of us to believe. i almost think this was the shot in the arm bush and his "defense" ministry was craving from day one as well, be prepared for the reign of terror.

i like the subtle change in rhetoric that's going on. colin powell said america should prepare for "sustained military retaliation". but are they preparing us for a measured attack with a good chance at arresting(hmm)/killing those responsible, or are they preparing us for another iraq or vietnam. . .

all over the map here i know, just seemed like the topic for it friend.

[seeking]

Originally posted by 23578:
i don't think those backward ass fucks much care about what happens to the common folk either). they're all about keeping their the selfish money grubber ways and keeping their slick oil sheik's relative, really puts a face out there so they stay loyal .

i dont think so. i think their loyalties really do fall with their religious beliefs and the good they feel they would be doing for their people all over the middle east. if they were allowed to take out the jews and the US, they would live peacefully for the first time in history. now, obviously killing a whole race of people is not the answer to healthy living, BUT when you've been at war nearly since the inception of the civilized world, eventually not-so-kind measures start to appear mole apealing. not saying he's right for his means or motives, but he's not the complete nut-job terrorist we want to make him out to be.

[otoam33]

if this comes down to a war, which its becoming apparently obvious it will, this wont be a war on a country. this is becoming a wa on terrorism. and i age with who ever it is who said that there will just be retaliation after our response on terrorism. thats a given now. thi will become a never ending cycle. we are n a new age now. with these events we hae now been pushed into a new war.. with a new kind of enenmy. with one that is sometimes invisible till they strike. we can go and level a country or two or three or how ever many. will this solve anything? probably not. does the US have to stand behind its words now that there wil be a response to this? yes. where will this all get us? who really knows. time is going to tell.

have you ever thought that maybe the media is sowing us a lot of what they want us to see? that maybe the media isnt controled soley by them, but by the government. as much as they seem to just report the news. the media is filled with propoganda. if i had more time right now i'd go more indepth. just think about it.

[brown twinkie]

Originally posted by beardo:
theres no real good place to spew this so i'll just drop it here..


the more i think about it the more fucked up i think this really is. i think the planning of this is being totally overlooked. they thought of everything. ie: look at how the plane targeted at the whitehouse ended up, they couldnt hit the whitehouse so they had a back-up plan and hit the pentagon. they probably already have a prepared retaliation to whatever our next move is. i forget who posted it but there was a story about how US bombings of the mid east could BENEFIT bin laden. also, i would bet they are hiding in the last place we'd look/bomb. definately not the mid east. you dont commit the biggest atrocity in history and just sit there. i hope im wrong but i feel like this was only the first stage in a huge 'oporation' against us. i would not be surprised if there is an even more disasterous attack planned. basicly, im not paranoid or dillusional, just prepared as i think they are.

i agree with beardo for the most part.......
the more i think about it, the more i can see the states being in a
total lockdown mode for sometime to come as well.....i mean, there could
be thousands of these terrorists located everywhere.....
i can't remember who, but somebody posted a newslink to some stuff
about bin laden's operation of acquiring nuclear warheads in exchange
for opium.....the warheads were apparently going to be disassembled and then downsized to fit into backpacks and suitcases, 'suitcase nukes'......
i'm not saying this is going to happen or if his science teams were even able to achieve this stuff.....but..........man....i'm betting its so tentacled.....you kill bin laden, and like whomever said, there are probably thousands more willing to step up to the plate, and probably have the same amount of knowledge of his operations to continue it......and considering that we don't have any idea of exactly how many people may support these guys....i mean this guys shit is so tight that he doesn't even use any type of electronics for communications................how the fuck??? that is some phenominal shit to me.........anyhow.................. i think the complacency of american defense and intelligence has allowed a festering of complex networks to pop up on our soil and abroad..............i won't get into all the why's......but...
as far as retaliation...................i can't even fathom how much it is going to take to stomp this shit out.......................it is going to cost fucking batrillions of dollars.....could this spiral the economy into depression like times?? cuz it is going to cost sooo much money...the retaliations and this whole thing is just going to set in worldwide paranoia......

[mental invalid]

....i cant even type of you guys are blowing around such hot fucking intellectual air it makes me fucking sick...heres a clue, americas atrocities against humanity is nothing new...but stop pulling in southern america and stop with the WWII atom bomb allsuions, both are irrelevant to the question at hand....if you want to talk about our policies in middle eastern affairs dating back to our stances with british imperialism then thats fine, but keep on the area and the people at hand, and know what you are talking about or ill pull your history card and flunk ya for the whole board to see...everyone is an expert at americas faults and what not to do, and yet i hear nothing of the complexity in the 20th and 21st century about foreign policy especially when dealing with the middle east...its a complete different culture, and my guess is that no one on this board is well versed enuff to offer any real insight...and no reading this weeks time and newsweek, although good, does not count...and on a side note unless you have been at the WTO, the school of americas, or the UN, etc, and have protested against our involvement or policies beyond the scope of spray paint then perhaps you should be more concerned with how much knowledge you all have and yet why you remain inactive except for your uses of pressing a keyboard...most of you that have made these arguements i respect and admire on various different levels, but ive been biting my lips for two days, and i cant keep quiet anymore...

"this is amerika's fault. and yes its easy to place blame. it is real easy to point fingers. but we leave trails and enemies at every turn. we make friends and the stab them it is karma.
i am not sounding educated right now"


.....actually you sound exactly like the fucking red necks vets in my town that went into a gas station and told the owners that the attack was their fault and they were gonna kill em....funny how two ends of a line can sometime meet....rOe


***edit for the removal of pseudo****

[This message has been edited by mental invalid (edited 09-14-2001).]

[seeking]

its not going to cost any more than vietnam (or the present day equivelant.) i think perhaps people are getting a little too paranoid with the idea that there are terrorists hiding in every self storage area in the country. yes, every other country in the world deals with terrorism every day. we've been lucky enough to not. why is that? because few people are foolish enough to attempt such a thing. simply because it happend once, that hardly means we all to start checking our cereal for milk detonating nukes. its a very complex situation and hardly an easy one to grasp or resolve, but the idea that we will now turn into a recessive draconian police state over this is a both a little presumptious, and early to predict. yes things will be wildly different. we wont see a building blow up in an action movie for another 10 years atleast.... but gettign all hysterical about the ramifications of something that we know nothing of is at this point, only going to stiffle our attempts to deal with this on a reality based level...

[beardo]

i hear you and agree. thats just my conspiritorial mind at work. i've been postponing my "fuck feeling like a victim" rant in fear it may get my head removed from my body in very small incriments. so i agree with you, that doesnt mean i dont think theres a much larger 'game plan'

[seeking]

i respect you as well roe, but if you have shit to say, bring it. i know what im talking about and i can march its relivence up and down the block for the world to see. you dont know anyone here outside of the context of the internet so labeling us as armchair revolutionaries is both unfounded and ignorant and you know it.

[mental invalid]

....seeking all i said was if you ARE an arm chair revolutionary (which on is a brilliant by the way) you should check it, thats all...that and that lets keep it to the area and the people at point...the middle east and the history, the governments, the policies and the people...thats all...mE

[seeking]

you cant make a statement like you did and not be making implications against me considering every other post is from me and im doing the exact thing your arguign against.

what we did in latin america is relivant because it begins to answer the 'why' question that everyone is seeking answers to. 'why would someone do this to us.' so some of us answer, because we've been doing it to every brown skinned country in the world for a hundred years. it is indeed relivant because it shows the broad scope of our activities in other lands and the hypocricy that is our governments foreign policy. the same foreign policy that undoubtedly is the impetus for these attacks. that is why its relivent and that is why its being discussed.

[cracked ass]

I don't remember what I was agreeing with anymore. I thought I was repeating somebody's point that we should go slow and get it right on retaliation.
I feel a lot of people are a combination of naive, uninformed, and plain ignorant in the threads on this subject that have popped up since the attacks.
I could write all day but I want to keep it readable, so I'll stick to the concepts of statecraft.
As has been pointed out, the US has plenty of blood on its hands from various dirty operations, covert and otherwise. Our leaders know statecraft. Bush is not the brightest bulb ever to sit in the Oval Office, but that is really irrelevant, because he has a Cabinet, intelligence agencies, all kinds of staff who can run rings around him in IQ and whatnot. (I don't like his political leanings, but I don't think he's as dumb as a lot of people believe, just a poor speaker.) Bottom line is, the people who run this country know statecraft, they know Machiavelli, they know crowd control and psychology. They know more than they take credit for, because it's bad PR for them to advertise their cleverness and willingness to discard elements of morality.
The government is probably right now in a crowd control mode, leaning on the media as to what to show and what to keep hidden so the people don't panic. Meanwhile behind the scenes a few civil liberties are going out the window as police lean on suspects, the FBI, CIA and others call in favors with contacts they have worldwide, Powell and other diplomats bring the full chilly blast of US resolve to bear on leaders of countries who have not been enthusiastic allies. The government is willing to cut corners to get what it wants, which really is the patriotic goal of protecting the US and destroying whoever is responsible for the terrorism. Basically, we will use underhanded methods to get what we want, and it will work in this case, even if some past operations have become muddy and messy and made us more the bad guys than the bad guys (Nicaragua, etc.).
For a really excellent fictional handling of a situation remarkably like this one, read "The Fourth K" by Mario Puzo, he does a fantastic job of getting into the heads of terrorists, world leaders, the behind-the-scenes type of stuff which on the surface is fiction, but underneath is really the truth.
Unlike Beardo and Mune I'm not worried about a shitstorm of additional attacks in this country. The worst is over, short-term, simply for tactical reasons - they no longer have the advantage of surprise, so it will be much harder to pull off anything big in the next few months, with everyone on guard. I could see maybe a second wave of smaller truck bombs and train derailments, and a lot of cells getting arrested before they can pull off their particular move. I think, if anything, the next big terrorist action will be against Israel.
I think a lot of people are worried about the US being incompetent given that we didn't see this attack coming. But nobody should underestimate the US now that we've been hit. The reasons we missed this one come primarily from overly moral legislators who questioned our need to have a significant "human intelligence" capability, meaning agents infiltrating terrorist groups and otherwise dealing with scumbags worldwide we'd rather not, just to have a better set of ears to the ground to complement the technological types of surveillance we have. Also, privacy advocates have gotten laws passed that hamstring the intelligence agencies, restricting them from snooping as thoroughly as they need to notice what people are up to in advance. (I have mixed feelings about this, I'm a strong privacy hound myself but less civil liberties does mean more security.) So the government has been operating with various handicaps as to how dirty and intrusive they can be with spying out threats. Now that we've been attacked, those agencies will discard or suspend those rules and be very capable of getting to the bottom of this, as well as nabbing anyone else waiting in the wings to launch additional attacks.
I'm not debating the morality of retaliation, only the mechanics. If you want a better real-life feel for the stuff I'm talking about, read that Puzo book and understand that much of it is reality underneath the fictional plot.

[beardo]

i'll say it again.. we really need to chat sometime cracked. one of these days i'll actually take the initiative

[cracked ass]

Well, we're here, why not now? [img]http://www.12ozprophet.com/ubb//cool.gif'>
I'm skipping the morality issue because of my existentialist, non-activist, rather nihilist views. I wasn't the most patriotic American before the attacks and I'm not now. In a way I shrug at everything. If you know enough history and have seen enough human behavior, and have spent more than enough time wondering why the fuck we're here, it doesn't even seem worth talking about. Another empire goes to war, more bombs went off, hate and intolerance live on, compassion and people pulling together in crisis also pop up again. Good, evil, gray areas, whatever. My influence on the world will be small, if anything. Most days I feel so ordinary that it's not worth the effort telling my story. I've been done. Another smart, rebellious, antisocial, cynical intellectual watching his narcissism draining away, what else is new? I'd paint some trains if it weren't raining.

[seeking]

everyone told me we wouldnt get along. that it would almost be painful to watch us interact. i was wa to high strung for you. huh. i think we'd get along just fine and perhaps even have alot to talk about. or in the spirit of your last post, alot not to talk about. the only thing that keeps me tying is complete and utter lack of anything else constructive to do. at the end of the day though, i feel very much the same. 'oh.'

[beardo]

if i were a lot smarter i think we'd be twins. im just totally fascinated with the whole thing. anytime these huge events happen i get totally sucked in. my human behavior observation gland is working overtime.


[This message has been edited by beardo (edited 09-14-2001).]

[mental invalid]

....seeking i wasnt implicating you, but it does come off like that...so if you are active then thats great, and if you are not, i hope you do become involved...that was actually a call to all...it is good that you are dropping knowledge, and not spoon feeding either, to people that ask why countires hate us...im always baffled by this holier then thou attitude some americans have...so continue to educate...i just want this to be a discussion of middle east affairs, i believe thats what it relevant, i suppose im looking for a more microscosmic view of the situation....


by the way i dont think these terrorist are evil, and i dont think they are cowards....

also if a citizen is willing to die for a jihad, then is he innocent?...and how do we seperate those who are innocent and those who are only innocent because they are waiting for their call and have yet to take action...how do we seperate governments from its citizenry...and how do we seperate governments and citizenry from a religious fanaticism when in fact it is all so interwoven....the middle east is the definition of complexity....

[seeking]

Originally posted by mental invalid:
[Bhow do we seperate governments from its citizenry...and how do we seperate governments and citizenry from a religious fanaticism when in fact it is all so interwoven....[/b]

the very same could be (and perhaps should be, if for no other reason than argument) said about the US. replace 'religion' with 'capitalism' (undeniably our countries only unifying factor) and how different are we really? i know plenty of people who would be willing to die for their car.

[mental invalid]

...oh yeah and i want in on the coffee chat with you three...

[imported_the last slave]

Originally posted by seeking innocence:
i dont think so. i think their loyalties really do fall with their religious beliefs and the good they feel they would be doing for their people all over the middle east. if they were allowed to take out the jews and the US, they would live PEACEfully for the first time in history.

do you really believe that?


Mental Invalid ,you took the words out of my mouth. thats exactly what i've been thinking.

...Well if i was a terrorist all i'd need to do is just watch some tv.

[mental invalid]

"the very same could be (and perhaps should be, if for no other reason than argument) said about the US. replace 'religion' with 'capitalism' (undeniably our countries only unifying factor) and how different are we really? i know plenty of people who would be willing to die for their car."


-i dont know if its our only unifying factor, maybe the thought is just to fucking deflating...about youre car comment, my friend at work called her bro on tues out in San Fran to see if he was ok...he works in the financial markets out there...she was surprised to find him at work, when she asked him why isnt he home...his reply was that he was mad busy...when she asked with what!?, he told her his phone had been nonstop with calls about people concerned with one thing, "where is my money?!"

...the story grossed me out, perhaps thats just life, but it still made me feel like shit....


***edit for the other under****


[This message has been edited by mental invalid (edited 09-14-2001).]

[seeking]

i wouldnt have said it if i didnt. im not saying its right, but if you take away all your enemy's, atleast on paper, there is no one left to fight.

[seeking]

not underlying factor, unifying factor. its what brings the majority of people to america. dreams of hollywood, hot dogs and money. you could i suppose substitute 'capitalism' with 'freedom' but since our freedom is constantly in question, capitalism is the only thing that towers above it as constant.

[beardo]

im getting no work done.

[cracked ass]

Yeah, I need some lunch.

[mental invalid]

edit made, sorry seeks....

.....^^^^^^i know a great sushi place by me, and a chill jazz club for after drinks....lets all get the fuck outta whatever were doing....

[seeking]

fuck, i like sushi alot. except since im vegertarian ijust eat alot of cucumber and avocado roles. to make up for the blandness in taste, i make it a game to see how much wasabi i can fuck with. im up to chunks placed right on top. im so tough.

[beardo]

i'd set down a huge plate of enchiladas right on top of your sushi. wash it down with a cool glass of salsa and have some tamalies for desert. goddamn i need some good mexican food..

[seeking]

i was just thinking of goingto get some mexican. damnit beard, why arent i in philly at work with you right now? what the fuck? then you could just unplug my mouse when i go to hit 'close'...

[beardo]

haha id just block 12oz from your browser altogether..

i was even thinking the other day, why arent you here? theres plenty of floor in my no furniture apartment and im sure you could find something to do if not get a job here.

[seeking]

ya know, perhaps i might have to spend some time down there..

[beardo]

will you marry me seeking innocence

[seeking]

were already best friends, we might as well take it to that other level.

[mental invalid]

^^^^okay so it sounds like tacos in vermont you two, can i be in the wedding party!!!

[imported_ghoulsnightout]

if you were in new york, all of you would have a seriously different outlook on this hole matter. My simpathy goes out to those who have suffered a loss in this tragedy, and to those inacents that will suffer from the inevidable retaliation.

peace and blessings

[seeking]

man, you spell worse than i do.

[beardo]

theres no real good place to spew this so i'll just drop it here..


the more i think about it the more fucked up i think this really is. i think the planning of this is being totally overlooked. they thought of everything. ie: look at how the plane targeted at the whitehouse ended up, they couldnt hit the whitehouse so they had a back-up plan and hit the pentagon. they probably already have a prepared retaliation to whatever our next move is. i forget who posted it but there was a story about how US bombings of the mid east could BENEFIT bin laden. also, i would bet they are hiding in the last place we'd look/bomb. definately not the mid east. you dont commit the biggest atrocity in history and just sit there. i hope im wrong but i feel like this was only the first stage in a huge 'oporation' against us. i would not be surprised if there is an even more disasterous attack planned. basicly, im not paranoid or dillusional, just prepared as i think they are.

[This message has been edited by beardo (edited 09-14-2001).]

[Apelles]

"Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate"

I forget what band said that but I think someone should email bush the mp3.

------------------
AIM: DurtyTrol