dumbass question about palestine vs. israel

[patrickjilbert]

i'm not too knowledgable about the topic, but i'm hoping to learn a bit from some replies...

so the jews got israel from palestine after ww2 so they could have their own place, right? it seems to me like the palestinitials have a right to fight people off who took their country. the halocaust wasn't their fault so why did they get land taken away? and why does the US support israel and waste their/our time?


some of the questions i asked are probably reallt stupid, but a lot of you seem to know a lot about topics such as this.

[dukeofyork]

both sides (israelis and palestinians) believe they have rights to the area.
neither side will admit being wrong.
the fighting will continue....

[T.T Boy]

1. not all of the land was given to isralies, alot was bought for expensive pices from the palestinians, traditionally nomadic people the palestinians didnt see the entire value of the land. and sold it. now with the isralies owning most of it, they want it back.

2. they will not share as both religions have religious monuments on either side, they will refuse to share. and fight till the kill eachother, one with stick and stones, and one with military aid and back up. i have my voews on this so i wont get into them, as they are strong.

[Pistol]

Originally posted by T.T Boy

2. they will not share as both religions have religious monuments on either side, they will refuse to share. and fight till the kill eachother, one with stick and stones, and one with military aid and back up. i have my voews on this so i wont get into them, as they are strong.
True TT. Both in the Jewish and Muslim faiths a majority of their holiest sites are at the same spots. It's messed up that the two sides can't get along and work things out. Palestianian gunmen keep uloading on innocents people at malls. And the Israeli army has to keep shooting them and or going back into Palestian territory, thus further enraging Palestinians. People in Israel complain that Yasser Arafat is not doing enough to keep peace in the area and put a clamp down on those extremist such as Hamas or Hezbollah. Israel offered Palestine a deal last year giving them some land back. But Palestine refused because some land they wanted was not included in the deal. Israel has now offered to start serious negotiations again but only after one week of peace. Even the US this week is visiting to help try to broker a peace agreement and get the talks initiated. But while they were there a Palestian gunmen opened up on innocent civilians and another human bomb exploded on a bus. It seems to me that if these Palestinian Martyr's are so into getting their land back why would you be disturbing the peace process and targeting innocent civilians.
Although I understand Palestinians want some land back they can't keep causing this violence. If they just chilled for a while the talks might be more positive. I mean I'm a Chicano living in LA and the US stole this land from us. You don't see me and my friends throwing rocks at the cops and exploding next to innocent civilians.

[Smart]

Israel the state was actually formed shortly after WWI but I forget the details, basically there was no one there until the 50s and then part of the Israelies argument was 'well you've had 30 years to contest this but you never did?'... and they also kinda stomped ass in the 7day war so both sides feel some historical justification in the matter... I don't pick sides...

[imported_Tesseract]

Palaistinians lived in that land,
anyone with common sense of geography and population can understand that there is no area in the globe, exept the north pole or somedesert, isnt 'home' to some people.
I'm no expert but i think that Jews lived there aswell, so in a way they have the right to claim the land.
They mostly do it based on history (religious) concidering the land birthright of somekind.
As far as buying the land, thats crap to me, who sells a land?
I mean if some politicians do it it doesnt change the way that people who lived there concider the land.Can i say indians?
Palaistinians dont have to pay the brutality of Germans.
And Jews suffer from the syndrome where you act like the one who tortured you.
Personnaly i think that the holocauste is one of the most terrible things that ever happened.
But my stomach turns whenever i see a movie about it, full of sensitivity towards human life and rights, made by people who think that a rock equals a misile.

[aztek4two1]

palestine was controlled by great britain. the un was formed after ww2.. israel was formed in 1948

britain gave it up with no consideration of the palestinians that were living there, primarily because they were a somewhate nomadic people.

its very similar to the way the native americans lived off many areas of america but didn't have "control" of the land according to european standards.

its not a good thing, but its done with, and now it needs to be dealt with.

the world isn't perfect, it never will be.

-booya

[Step8]

both sides want all or nothing. the Jewish state is a religious state, religon and politics are twisted together on both sides
As states before the jews were just given Palistine. They had been lobbying for it long before the holocaust. And immediatly leading up to the country of Isreal being recognized by the UN the Jew's were the terrorists, blowing up stuff, and generally pissing the british off

[T.T Boy]

well taking it back a few hundered years, the land was actually shared by the two people, but the palestinians did actually have more, but it was the romans who chased out the jews and forced them into euroupe and other parts of the world. but still the land was mixed between the two and there were no problems then. fast forward a few hundered years, and well teh palestinians still had the land but didnt really use it that well, being nomadic and such, they caused no threat to the british controlling the land, and with no where to put boatloads of jews they stuck them there only to cause problems. damn im not making much sense, ill edit this tomorrow morning.

anyways, i know alot of the u.s is stolen land, but in all actuality all of the us and canada is stolen land if traced back accordingly. it was the english and fench who traded "goods" to the indians for land, and also used force to steal it from them. it really is their land, and its stolen, but it was "paid" for with alcohol and mirriors and knives. things the natives didnt even really need. but knowing the greed they took the land anyways. fuck im rambling.

[I Luv Roo]

I guess we can thank Great Britain in all their imperialist might. Heck, they could have given the Haulocaust survivors any land they controlled, which was like half the freakin world - but since Palestine is also Jerusalem, well, they naively gave away land that really didn't belong to them - and the world didn't think a damn thing of it because they all just were so apalled at what went on in Germany, and the Jews had always wanted a country of their own - a "Jewish Nation". The Jews were underdogs for a long time after Isreal was formed, contantly under attack by Arab/Muslim nations - and finally they buffed up their army. Then when Egypt started a war with Isreal, Isreal won big time and gained the upper hand.

It doesn't help the situation that the US (private banks and gov.) provides alot of support and arms to the Isreali Army, which they use to push Palesineans further and further into confines. The US might be saying they want peace, but they clearly support one side over another monetarily.

It's too long and complex - and honestly, that's the way I think people in power would like it to remain, so that us undividuals, especially if we were too young to remember the 70's and 80's - won't know the entire story and we won't question what goes on. It's just so people think that these people over there are crazy and fighting for no cause, which has some truth because right now, it appears to just be retaliation against each other for isolated incidents - like gang fights. After a while, you don't even know what you're really fighting about, you just know you're mad as hell and someone's gonna pay.

[Smart]

why all the suicide bombers? it seems the goal might be to actually go to war with Israel?

[Crooks]

Originally posted by Smart
why all the suicide bombers? it seems the goal might be to actually go to war with Israel?

in 1948 isreal did indeed do to war with all the arab nations it was a brutal war but isreal won..the funny thing bout this is that the ussr supported isreal at the time because it was assumed that isreal was going to be communist..us actually had little do with isreal in the begining...

since 1948 through the 1960's isreal was at war with all of its nieghbors at one time or another in 1968 there was a cease fire during the yom kipper holidays(a serious jewish holiday) all the arab countries atacked isreal at one time in an effort to destroy isreal...this was called the 6 day war..isreal was caught of guard but in the end won and actually took more land from egypt, lebanon and other bordering countries..the land won was called the occupied teritories..isreal held this land until the early 90's when with the us brokered a deal with arafat and created the state of palestine the only thing not cementing the new country was the fact that arafat wanted all of jerusalum

now jerusalum is isreals capital...sharon(the prime minister of isreal) was like we can give u sections but not all of it which was a big deal if u understand the ramifications....anyways arafat was not having it he wanted all or nothing so now he has nothing..and now hes trying to salvage the fact that he fukked up with a call to all the people of palestine to rise up...and that is where we at now(i kinda summed it up real quick)

a little known fact in 1982 isreal attacked an destroyed iraqs nuclear program...the whole world condemned isreal then...now how u think things woulda turned out now if iraq an them terrorist nations would be if they had nuclear technology at there finger tips?

[T.T Boy]

well this may be a bit off topic but, a close friend of my family grew up there and told me stories about what happened, this is an unbiased source too, as his family is orthodox catholic, a whole other religion in itself, and when he was a child he grew up with bombs going off 50 feet from his house all day and all night. and he watched the palestinians fight the isralies all through his teenage years, and when 15 innocent women and children were catured by isralie soldiers for no reason and held ransom, and the only way they could be saved was for the palestinians to capture 3 armed guards and hope for a trade, but when 3 armed guars went missing, there came the bombings and shooting on behalf of the isralies. and yes they got teh guards back and eventually the palestinians got the people back, but after all of that. and why were the people captured anyways? no reason. the palestinians are fighting a giant armed to the teeth with sticks and stones, they use carbombings and such only as a means of nothing better to do, whos supporting them? no one, if they had theusa backing them it would be a whole newstory. the us needs to either fuck off or try and negoriate things, which would efinatley be the better of the options. this war needs to stop.

[Smart]

word Crooks, but I mean right now, during the negotiations... everytime the 'peace process' gets started...

[T.T Boy]

i doubt there ever ill be peace i doubt yassar arafat even has control anymore. those people seem to thrive on holy wars.

[Dr. Dazzle]

Dude, they just blew up more innocent people, israelis I think, this weekend. Damn. Why can't we all just get along?

[--zeSto--]

without any real knowledege on the historical situation...

When I see guys throwing rocks at tanks, I generally side with the underdogs.
The bombings are so very wrong, but I feel for the desperation.
Those who have nothing to loose will risk the most.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

My name says it all.

[mental invalid]

...blame it on the brits...

[patrickjilbert]

base upon what little information i do know about the matter, i'd side with the palestinians. if some country stole land from my people, i'd hope my people in palestine would go off too. i saw in the news today some palestinian police guys with ski masks and ak-47s getting into a van. that is some toughguy shit.

i agree with the statement about siding with the underdogs too...


this looks like some counterstrike shit...

[img]http://cbsnews.com/htdocs/mideast/html/photos_dec2001/images/15.jpg'>

[bodice_ripper]

you know it is all a lot more simple than that

The Arabs hate the Jews because they are Jews, and the Jews hate the Arabs because they are Arabs.

This is about religious intolerance and racism, any events that may have caused it are CLEARLY secondary. I get the feeling this all goes back thousand of years.

[T.T Boy]

id like to say id side with the underdogs too. id be pissed of someone stole my land. id fight for it too.

but maybe we should just shower these people with food and porn and liquor and whatever else they dont have maybe that will cheer them up.

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by mental invalid
...blame it on the brits...

word.

[patrickjilbert]

i dont think porn would help. a lot of those guys are uptight and rape women anyway. wouldnt porn make it worse. it was a good idea though. they are pretty crazy sometimes.

i blame the british!

[Kr430n5_666]

[img]http://www.seanbaby.com/stupid/images/jessvent.jpg'>

[fiberoptical]

who wants to rebuild the temple of solomon?.

how much money does the US give to the Mossad?

Where will be the start of Armaggedon?

Cui Bono from a holy war?

[BROWNer]

i have a question for mr. conspiracy cleansheets.... you're certainly up on your theories, i'm just curious if you steadfastly believe all of it? how much of this shit you post up are you willing to go along with? do you believe the US government is in cahoots with aliens, as william told you?

[Pistol]

True I usually root for the underdogs in boxing and other sports. But in this case no. Those Palestinian suicide bombers are going into places that young children,teenagers,and women are and explode. They have nothing to do with shit. All there trying to do is go shopping or eat a pizza. Second how would all you caucasion's like it all of a sudden us Mexicans and native Americans decided we want OUR land BACK and start heading out to malls supermarkets and detonating ourselves next to your little sisters,mothers,etc.???? We don't have the means to launch a full scale military effort and that would be our only option.... Besides blowing up innocent people isn't gonna help us get our land back it's just gonna have people hate us more.

[patrickjilbert]

well if the native americans and mexicans went for the right targets i could see how an attack could be justified. ask yourself this though, wouldn't you want to do whatever you could to get revenge on a country that was supplied with FIGHTER JETS, HELICOPTERS, and all kinds of other shit. the U.S. supplied all of that. the fight isn't even close to being even when you have guys with ak-47s trying to fight a force equipped by the richest country in the world.

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by mental invalid
...blame it on the brits...

What the fuck??!! Do you have any knowledge of the history of this region? Hey, why don't we blame the shitty state of Afghanistan, Cuba, and all the other shitty countries on Americans?

Hate fuels hate. Nuff said.

[I Luv Roo]

Alot of Native American groups are doing what they can to fight for at least SOME land, I recommend watching a documentary called "In the Light of Reverence". In very recent history, there have been major battles over pieces of land that should belong to Native Americans - it was called WOUNDED KNEE (the one in the 70's). Among many others.

There are many many books you can read about the first massacre at Wounded Knee, and the much later struggle for that same location in the seventies.

And what's this about Cuba being part of the war in the middle east? That sounds like some cold war propaganda to me...

[mental invalid]

"Do you have any knowledge of the history of this region? "


....actually dr. d i do...thus the reason for blaming it on the brits....perhaps i was being a bit harsh and overgeneralizing to an insane degree...it was more of an intellectual joke....meaning if you knew the history of israel past ww2 you would know what i was getting at...if you didnt, well then you would think i was just talking outta my ass....heres a hint, im not....r.

[fiberoptical]

Browner- I am not a theorist...let me say this..I study power.And the things that control societies, people and civlizations. There are those who benefit and profit from war and wars...and history is alot older than a few years ago when the Jews took over Israel in 1948...and there is a power conflict going back to The early days of Christianity, etc...that is fully relevant to now.Now I am not one to disclose my beleifs to the masses on aliens, sacred geometry,the fibbonacci numbers, the golden spiral, knights of templar,the vatican, sumeria, ancient egypt and so forth..I merely put the questins into ones mind...or attempt to. I think there is more going on in the skeme of things, than just our SUV's, graff, and the internet. I happen to think that what we are witnessing right now, is a movement to put power of a global scale into the hands of a few. I think what we will see in Israel is an escalation of violence from both sides, the US will step in and a full on holy war will erupt worldwide.The end result being alot of casualties, and eventually after the horrors of an insane war, people will want peace..at any cost.And will gladly accept the UN...the one....as it's ruler..and we will truly be a "global village"...how lovely..
Now I could be totally wrong and I hope so...and when that day comes you can ridicule me and talk all the shit you like.I really do hope for that.
Until then, understand that the truth is worth questioning.
Armageddon time...".it's not christmas time, anymore"..the clash.

[Ski Mask]

I cant side with either group here, but the behaviour of israel baffles me at times. Like the recent F-16 strikes on a palestinian police building, supposedly done because of arafat's "lack of real action" in rounding up terrorists?
what planet does this make sense on? If the US felt that Canada wasn't being diligent enough in keeping terrorists out through immigration, would they starting blowing up our immigration offices as "incentive"? what kind of fucking ass backwards logic are they using?!? I'm sure the palestinian authority, now minus one police station, and a couple dozen officers will do a much better job in rounding up terrorists.

does anyone elses brain hurt hearing about this shit?

[patrickjilbert]

very good point indeed....

[BROWNer]

israel and the us just don't get it.....their answer, solving violence with violence, doesn't work with these people......yea i'm generalizing..........throughout history, this type of thing always galvanizes peoples convictions....so......round and round we go...

*fucking misplaced comma:cool:

[mental invalid]

....is it me or does anyone else get the feeling like this is gonna really turn ugly very shortly....

rOe,
fingers crossed

[Smart]

Originally posted by ese
now minus one police station.

actually, this seems to be rather thematic in Israel's reactions for the past few years... I can't remember the last time they air to grounded a cop shop, but in the past, everytime there would be some small uprising, or sometimes bombers, but mainly rocks and bottle throwers, still, when there was an uprising, the Israelis would drive a tank or an APC in there and demolish a police station... I have always wondered what they thought this would achieve...

[Pistol]

An interesting little tidbit for you guy's and girls. A few years back Israel bombed a Palestinian jail. That station or jail just happened to be the place where one of the convicted leaders of Hamas was located. One of the few leaders Arafat locked up. But because of the bombing he escaped. That Hamas leader was/is one of the main conspiritors of the recent suicide bombings. You can't really get on Israel too much. They have put up with terrorists bombing innocent civilians for years now. It really got out of control recently. Basically Palestine and Israel are making a bug "shit sandwich" and their inviting us for dinner.

[mental invalid]

"israel and the us just don't get it.....their answer, solving violence with violence, doesn't work with these people......"-brown




...i was thinking about this comment yesterday, and although id agree with you whole heartedly, i cant help but think that palestinians use the same approach....but really my gripe with arafat and hamas, they sleep in the same bed, is that they always seem to blow their opportunities....recently bush made his comments, as did other world leaders, about a palestinian state...i was shocked when they said this, and had hamas and arafat had any political and pr savy they woulda jumped all over this....they seemed to gain more support after the brief occupation, which most of the world leaders said was too brash...there even seems to be soe support for peace from the inside israels governmenr via the labor party, which feels sharon is out to topple arafat in a personal grudge match....now what has happened after the recent wave of suicide bombings is that they have begun to loose the international support for a state and the us and other nations have given israel the green light....it seems that they are not willing to accept israel at all sometimes...and have no real concept of the sticking game of give and take that is diplomacy.....a fucking mess....r.

[BROWNer]

roe, totally.
i was generalizing...idiots attacking idiots attacking idiots.
i pick on israel and the us cuz the way its portrayed in the media
is that they have the 'proper' way to go about conflict via military,
whereas the palestinians don't have the 'luxury' of such 'proper'
engagement, so they are constantly put in the 'wrong' in alot
of mass media sources. whatever. arafat has had deals right in front of
his face, and not taken them...he's a quivering lipped dipshit.
i don't know, i'm not taking sides. it just bothers me that the us in
particular act as if they are so civilized, then they bomb the fuck out
of people.....i don't know what else they are supposed to do, but....
i said it before, things like this galvanize people, not thumb them out
forever.

brown/creeping nihilism

[mental invalid]

....oh no no, i hear what you were saying man....it just gets me so peeved, its like arafat doesnt have a single diplomatic bone in his body....has no idea about the manipulation of public opinion and has no idea of lobbying and public relations...and more imprtantly knowing what you can win and what you cant....i mean some of the shit he does from a public opinion stand point is right up there with how exxon handled the oil spill (tangent: total bullshit that they are getting their fine reduced)...i mean its basic pr 101...believe me i know its goes deeper then that, but if these guys in hamas think suicide bombing was a good political move in the current state of things, then your a fucking moron....perhaps they should take some lessons from the IRA, who although have a leaning towards violence also understand that most of the battles are won not through pipe bombs but from political manueavering(sp?)....r

[imported_Tesseract]

You cant say that about Arafat, he's the man that almost succeded to get a recognised palaistine domain.
The thing is that he is fought from his own now.
IRA had the same problems, not everyone wants 'peace' and the struggle for leadership is a hard one.

[mental invalid]

"You cant say that about Arafat, he's the man that almost succeded to get a recognised palaistine domain"


exactly tess, ALMOST, hes not gonna get a much better deal then the one he coulda have gotten...plus if had realized the old foot in the door technique, take what you can now and then later on ask for more...the fact that he couldnt see that only proves my point that he cant hack it...plus as much as i think arafat dropped the ball i was also refering to the hamas suicide bombing as political suicide...both arafat and hamas are hand in hand...tess they blew it big time....and although the IRA had the same problem, and still does gerry adams has better control of them then arafart does for hamas...and atleast has made progress and now has a powersharing government of sorts....more then the irish catholics had before....anyone see the underlying theme of religion with all this crap....just noticed it....rOe

[Smart]

anyone see the cover of todays NY Post?

The Next Generation? (http://www.nypost.com/)

[mental invalid]

HOW FUCKING DARE THEY USE CHILDREN LIKE THAT!!!!

[imported_Tesseract]

Roe...correct,
But then again almost all wars have a religious base...
Im going out of topic a bit, but there is a thought worthy sharing.
Some people believe that the horrible decay situation that exists now in former USSR is the result of the ending of communism as a political idea and as a religion.
As we all know communism does not go hand in hand with religion,
And thats one of the reasons why most communist leaders are worshipped as gods, even art from those periods/countries has a religious iconography when it comes to leaders.
I dont believe in god.
But those non personated old religions have something good, they cannot be shut down,
I'm writing these very raw and undeveloped, but its an interesting point of view.

[imported_Tesseract]

And to add on the israeli/palaistine thing.

The nypost article is horrible.
What is described is horrible and the article itself is also horrible.

Although i'm disgusted by the sight of little kids trained to be kamikazes
i'm disgusted by the propaganda goin on.

Those things happen everywhere, scale makes things differ in view but not in context.

I mean what do you have to say about extreme organisations all over the world.
Their motivation is crazy, their dedication is total and their actions resemble horror.
How do people end up doin that shit?

If its based on the cause then palaistinians have a lot more than Coress did...

[Smart]

I never actually READ the Post, but I just look at the pictures... at the risk of exposing myself and breaking the hearts of all the little kids who like to claim that I am a brainwashed American automoton with no input other than CNN, I will offer this... Al Queda wants YOU! (http://66.96.205.195/~azzam/home.htm)

I REALLY want a couple of those videos...

[imported_Tesseract]

Oh god....:o

[Smart]

Tesser? I thought you'd at least have something to say about the big 'Jihad recruitment site'... anyone esle?

for what it's worth, this guy Azzam was killed a few years back, but before that he was Osama's best buddy... much like Moolah Omar, the religious justification for Osama's crazy beliefs...

[mental invalid]

jesus christ, blow up a bus and then mow down the fucking civilians running from the flames....now israel is completely disregarding arafat and are gonna move in and arrest people themselves...shit is going to get ugly....r

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by Smart
Tesser? I thought you'd at least have something to say about the big 'Jihad recruitment site'... anyone esle?

for what it's worth, this guy Azzam was killed a few years back, but before that he was Osama's best buddy... much like Moolah Omar, the religious justification for Osama's crazy beliefs...

HAHAHAHA, i was just speechless i guess...the graphix are wild though:)

[Smart]

seriously though, I've been into the Industrial music since before it had a name and I dunno if you've heard of Skinny Puppy, but the video they showed on their Too Dark Park (weak album) tour was freakin phenomenal... mostly mayhem and death, I think I could build my own with those Azzam movies... and I still want to do that... I mean, the death angle (imho) has been played since Dali made his movie (Le Chien Andalou ???)... anyway, still, seems like some graphic gold in there...

[imported_Tesseract]

La chien andalou....havent seen it unfortunately.But someone that i respect told me that all there is to be done in what is now called 'video art' its already covered there, before 'video art' got a name.
Which brings as to your latest thread,:)
Meaning that its always funny how really innovative things are hard for people to understand even decades after.
And this lack of understandment leads to the worst form of misunderstanting such as 'punkChrists inspirations'

[Smart]

well I'm scraping my memory, but I think Dali only made 2 films so I think I have a 50% chance of being correct... but... maily I was referring to the scene with the dead donkey being dragged across the floor to be 'eaten' by the piano... still yeah, it's hard to be original in the 21st century... I once heard that Hitler took the last archetypal symbol when he combined the swastika with the circle (the ultimate in power symbols, btw)

[imported_Tesseract]

yeah, its a hell of a symbol, dope colors to (Marlboro and coca cola noticed that also).
Swastika goes a long way back to ancient greece as a symbol of power and a dope decorative pattern, without the circle though.

[Smart]

yeah, the swastika is actually one of the most pangenic of the symbols... egyptians, greeks, mayans, american indians... of course, the reason for this will all become obvious when the scientific community finally acknowledges that trade routes existed between Africa and the New World before the time of Christ but... until then it's still a neat phenom

[imported_Tesseract]

Hahaha, yeah, i guess so. Its always nice talkin to you...
But i thought you'd have an interesting comment on the USSR topic and the political pantheon of communism

[Smart]

I must have missed it... do me a favor and post a quote or alink if it's in a different thread... I would look but I'm crosseyed, only thing for me is to go to work, hahaha... seriously though, I stayed up all night and now I'm going to weork for the first time in 3 weeks... when I say 'now' of course I mean 'next' and that could take days to get here...

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by Tesseract
Roe...correct,
But then again almost all wars have a religious base...
Im going out of topic a bit, but there is a thought worthy sharing.
Some people believe that the horrible decay situation that exists now in former USSR is the result of the ending of communism as a political idea and as a religion.
As we all know communism does not go hand in hand with religion,
And thats one of the reasons why most communist leaders are worshipped as gods, even art from those periods/countries has a religious iconography when it comes to leaders.
I dont believe in god.
But those non personated old religions have something good, they cannot be shut down,
I'm writing these very raw and undeveloped, but its an interesting point of view.

HAHAHA, here ya go, 'next' yeah i know what you mean...The only 'now' in my life is the search of hot girls that last couple of weeks.
Gotta get my shit together though

[Smart]

well, it is notable to point out that, even after the horrible persecution at the hands of the communists in the purge eras, Eastern Orthodoxy has always maintained a strong foothold in Russia. Even when religion and religious gathering was stricltly forbidden, the EO's still had it going on...

seems like most of their temples went undefiled too (but I may be way off on this), still, opiate of the masses or not, it's hard to convince humans that there isn't some 'higher power' out there meteing out judgement or at least some form of predestinantion...

as to the iconography, I have collected Iconographs from around the world for years now and that 'school' always sets me off. I like all the 'Che's and 'Lenin's, the 'Castro's... I also like some of the new stuff from Sadaam but sadly it isn't very inspired, just an old rehashing of symbols... seems like Idi Amin had some dope murals... I kinda dig the corruption of the religious cult to the personality cult thing... not like Manson, more like Frank Sinatra, but basically the same sort of idol worship

[imported_Tesseract]

Even when religion and religious gathering was stricltly forbidden, the EO's still had it going on...
Yeah, thats valid.
As far as 'painting' goes MAO, hands down

[Smart]

Originally posted by Tesseract
As far as 'painting' goes MAO, hands down

doubtless, I would ask how I could forget but... I think it's about time to go to work :p

[Ski Mask]

not to get back on topic or anything, but here's an email from fair's mailing list I got a week ago (I need to check my regular email more often!) that sheds some intresting new light on things:


FAIR-L
Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting
Media analysis, critiques and news reports





MEDIA ADVISORY:
NEW YORK TIMES SHOULD TELL FULL STORY IN TERROR BLAST
Hamas Leader Was in Palestinian Prison Until Freed by Israeli Attack

December 6, 2001

Three separate terrorist attacks in Israel claimed at least 25 lives this
past weekend, and subsequent Israeli army attacks on Palestinian areas have
killed at least five people. The Palestinian group Hamas claimed
responsibility for the suicide bombings, which it said were in retaliation
for the November 23 assassination of the group's senior West Bank leader,
Mahmoud Abu Hanoud.

Echoing the response of the Bush administration, the U.S. news media have
largely blamed the attacks on Palestinian Authority leader Yasir Arafat,
despite the fact that Hamas is an unaffiliated rival of the PA. "Arafat
didn't send the suicide bombers, but he didn't stop them either," reported
CBS Evening News correspondent David Hawkins (12/3/01). Although no one has
charged that the Palestinian Authority carried out or authorized the suicide
attacks, Israeli airstrikes against Palestinian Authority headquarters and
police facilities were presented in some outlets as a direct response to the
suicide bombings, as with the December 4 New York Daily News front-page
headline: "PAYBACK."

The New York Times made the Palestinian Authority's failure to arrest more
Hamas militants a major theme in its December 3 reporting and commentary.
According to a news analysis piece, "Mr. Arafat's lieutenants said they
would crack down on two powerful extremist groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad,
and began making arrests. Mr. Arafat had said before that he would take this
step, without doing so." The Times added that Arafat's Fatah organization
"has maintained uneasy relations with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, Palestinian
analysts and officials say-- relations that are likely to end if he puts
their leaders in prison and keeps them there."

The paper quoted Secretary of State Colin Powell as telling Arafat, "You've
got to go after the organizations who are conducting these kinds of acts of
terror... putting them in real jails where they are not walking free several
days later." The Times' editorial followed the same line, warning that "a
decisive moment is now at hand in which Mr. Arafat has to assert his
authority with actions, not merely words. He must, as Washington demands,
break up the terrorist organizations led by Hamas and Islamic Jihad by
arresting leaders involved in planning violence and by seizing illegally
held arms."

While it is certainly valid to investigate whether either the PA or Israel
have done enough to pursue suspected terrorists or to stop violence under
their control, the New York Times has omitted crucial facts about this
latest cycle of violence, even though the paper has reported these facts in
the past.

On August 26 of last year, Hamas' Hanoud was wounded by Israeli forces in a
shootout near the West Bank town of Nablus. Hanoud then surrendered to the
Palestinian Authority, and four days later he was sentenced to 12 years in
prison by a Palestinian military tribunal for training and arming military
groups (Associated Press, 9/2/00).

On May 18, Israel launched an F-16 attack on the Nablus jail where Hanoud
was being held, in an attempt to kill him. The action proved disastrous:
Eleven Palestinian police officers are believed to have died, and Hanoud
escaped (New York Times, 5/20/01). Castro Salameh, the Palestinian commander
of the Nablus post, told the Times, "Abu Hanoud has been my charge for nine
months, and I have kept him under lock and key... But now Israel has
liberated him. I have absolutely no idea where he has gone to."

These facts have been reported in the New York Times, most recently in a
November 25 story about Hanoud's assassination. But the stories written
after the latest round of violence have omitted these facts. Targeting
civilians is never acceptable, but context is critical as people seek a way
out of the cycle of Mideast violence: If the Times reminded readers that the
Hamas leader whose killing sparked the recent round of violence was in a
Palestinian jail until the Israeli military tried to assassinate him, it
would put the contention that the Palestinian Authority bears most of the
responsibility for the current strife in a different light.

On December 5 the Times did report that Arafat and others believe that
Israeli attacks on Palestinian police facilities are in fact encumbering
their ability to arrest militants. But the troubling connection between
Israel's attempt to kill a prisoner in Palestinian custody and the recent
rash of bombings is still not being pointed out by the paper.

----------

[Ski Mask]

*bump* cause I still cant believe this, and it proves my earlier point. The hamas leader would be locked up tight in prison if israel hadn't tried to assasinate him....now hes free to plan more suicide bombings...yay! way to go israel!

[Smart]

nowadays niggaz is just shootin' up the house party... that shit is SO "LA '84"

[Pistol]

Let's get our country liberated from these occupying infidels...let's shoot up a wedding of innocent civilians.
back from the dead

[patrickjilbert]

those palestinitnas are some bad motha -

shut yo mouth


israel = pussies that get aid form the US

[hindenberg]

t e s t e r

[DRUNKEN-ASSHOLE-ONER]

Let's get our country liberated from these occupying infidels...let's shoot up a wedding of innocent civilians.
back from the dead

True that. And while were at it, why dont we bomb and bulldoze the native inhabitants and claim their land as ours. And then expect no retribution. And then play the victim role when retribution comes. And pander to bigger stronger countries like the US and the rest of the world using that victim card to get them to help us whipe out the entire Palistinian problem. We'll call it the "final salution to the Palistinian problem."