FUCK ALL THIS FALSE PATRIOTISM!

[patrickjilbert]

article i found

As I'm sure you are well aware, it has been a few months since the September 11th terrorist incidents took place. And I'm sure you have listened to the media endlessly ramble on any way imaginable about the events. I, like everyone else who has half a conscience, mourn the loss of life. The events on September 11th are no exception.

Take just a second and try to think about how life has changed since then. Some things might come to mind such as 'national unity' and increased security many places. There is one thing, however, that is just as horrifying as the attacks themselves - America's new interest in patriotism itself.

Since September 11th, our nation has been plagued with millions of newfound 'patriots' who seem more like brainwashed billboards than true, thinking American citizens. Everyone from elementary school students to senior citizens is buying in on the 'patriotism' craze. You can't escape all of the flags that are being whored around our country as well as the meaningless September 11th merchandise. It's a sad day in our country when the only way you can show you care for America is to buy a New York City Fire Department hat and/or slap a cheap American flag sticker on your car.

The newfound 'patriotism' in our country today is nothing more than a meaningless fad that steers us away from looking at what our government is really doing. Everything our country does now goes without much question at all. We're the "land of the free", the most wealthy, and "best" country in the world. We could never do anything wrong - right? Every day we take steps away from our freedom, whether it is intolerance for antiwar protesters or loss of personal privacy. Laws like the Patriot Act (which passed with virtually no public hearing or debate) allow police to search peoples' homes without a warrant as well as expands the definition of "terrorist" so broadly that it could include non-violent protesters at an anti-war rally.

This brings us to the most important point of this whole paper - true patriots aren't the ones who are wearing shirts saying cheap slogans like "God bless America", and they probably won't be found with American flag stickers all over their cars. Patriotism is in one's heart, not on their possessions. Patriotism means questioning what American society and government does and not letting others silence your beliefs. People who try to silence you are far from patriots. They are traitors to the principles on which this country was founded upon. Lines like "love it or leave it" only prove their stupidity. Open your eyes.

[--zeSto--]

well put!

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves,
and, under a just God, cannot retain it."
-Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

"Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither freedom nor justice can be permanently maintained."
James A. Garfield, July 12, 1880

"Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part to us, do they?"
George Carlin

[patrickjilbert]

i wrote it myself actually, but feared people would talk more shit just because they hate my drawings. eh. i'm glad you liked it.

[imported_SenorSeven]

or maybe the new found patriotism is because people here finally realize what we have compared to other places? its not all "oh shit let me hop on a bandwagon and fly a flag." For people to unite, it takes a tragedy usually....and it finally happened on our home soil. Maybe you say what you say because you yourself feel that if you flew a flag, put one on your car etc that you would be doing it out of "false patriotism" and going along with the newest trend. one thing you gotta realize is the fact that as previously stated, tragedys cause unity...dont expect for the shit to disappear now either...its going to stay here- anyone who doesnt care for america - thats cool...i used to be that way...but the more i think about how good i have it here compared to living in some undeveloped 3rd world country....it makes me hella glad that i live in what people call the united snkaes...yeah we got just as many scandals as the next place if not more....but think about what an unfair advantage at life you have over someone living in another country- im just waiting for your rebuttal......it will be interesting im sure chuck...

[patrickjilbert]

america is a nice place to live, i agree. but i just find it sickening that the media has brainwashed people into "god bless america" idiots. it seems as though now people are less tolerant of others' beliefs than ever, whether it be protests or opinions such as mine on patriots.

[Pistol]

If we are all Americans, then what's wrong with blessing and praying for our neighbors, family and friends? It doesent always have to do with people getting brainwashed by the media or the government.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
...i used to be that way...but the more i think about how good i have it here compared to living in some undeveloped 3rd world country....it makes me hella glad that i live in what people call the united snakes...


All these stupid flags flying everywhere and stuck on people's cars don't really do anything but make the people who are selling them more money. Most people who are trying to show support for their nation/government/country don't really have any sort of vested interest in what that gov't is even doing with all the tax money and voter support they funnel into it, beyond making them happy in their fairly comfortable, American lifestyles. I'm not knocking anyone for being truly supportive of something, but I agree with the article above about people not applying any objective thought to their displays of national pride. Personally, I don't think being patriotic should have anything to do with just loving where you live, I think it should be related to agreeing with the actions of your government and showing support in that area.

Stop some of these people with American flags flying from their cars or who are wearing God Bless America T-shirts and ask them how much they really know about the workings or effects of government actions and policies surrounding 9/11-- I guarantee most of them won't know much.

Patriotism is a scary thing when it comes in the form of uncontested support.

[MR BOJANGLES]

"pay-trioti$m"
well put pat.;)

[patrickjilbert]

you know it is a holy day when mr. bojangles gives you a positive compliment



:o

[MR BOJANGLES]

all you gotta do is say/show somethin worth seeing.

[455]

Fuck The Media!!!!!!!....chumps$.

[A Fire Inside]

Bravo patrickjilbert! (and yes that is a compliment)

[Fro]

I remember hearing a saying a while ago, i cant remember who said but it went somthing like this

"I'd rather see a man burn the flag and wrap himself in the constitution then burn the consitution and wrap himself in the flag"

And did anyone see the new bin laden tape? He's one clever mother fucker.

"If killing those who killed our sons makes us terrorists, then let history show that we are terrorists"

I laughed when i heard this and saw the headlines on the news saying BIN LADEN ADMITS TO BEING A TERRORIST! I'm pretty sure most of the brainwashed fake partiot american public didnt really understand what he was saying by that. If you dont know, think about it a little bit.

Again i dont remember the exact quote but here goes

"The us government will lead its people and the west in general into a choking and unbearable life"

He called it. Thank Ashcroft and Tom Ridge for dimantaling our Constitution. Our Government has become exactly what our forefathers faught against, i bet they are turning over in their graves now.

[Fox Mulder]

just tonight i pull up at a stop light to some lady who throws her ciggeratte out the window then proceeds to cut me off. as she is infront of my i see her "God Bless America" sticker. how considerate of her.

[Iris]

i don't like america and what being american signifies.

[Fro]

Oh yeah, do a search on google on "The Forbidden Truth" It tells about how George W. Bush was negotiating with the taliban early january 2001 to secure an oil pipeline through afghanistan despite knowing that the taliban had terrorist connections. GW also told the cia to stop investigating the taliban so he could continue negotiations with them.

Also, do a search on the school of america's. Its the United States own terrorist training camp. One of the proud graduates of SOA....Manuel Noriega.

[imported_SenorSeven]

To love the place you live, you dont have to know everything about it. You need to know what the place means to you. America means something else to every single place. yeah our government hides a lot, this im aware of....but you are stating it as if other governments do not hide things...theres information that we dont even need to know - they feed us what they want , but we only accept what is fed- if people want to know more, theres ways of doing it...you wont find the whole story, but you can always dig and find more- its not that hard-

everyone who is knocking people making money off of it- how can you do that? our nation is based on capitalism - capitalize off what you can. So people are making money and people with differences are finally agreeing for once? thats a bad thing? i disagree. I mean you can look at it from the Federalist Paper # 10 perspective. James madison didnt want people worrying about the government - so guess what, we are fed what they give us without getting us to involved. Madison wanted people to worry about how they can better their lives by making money this way avoiding the formation of dangerous factions.

Right now our society is performing as it should. we became more united, someone is making money when unfortunately, a lot of companies are losing money - but thats life in a capitalist country-

I could also be looking at this a bit deep...but what can i say...i like politics....too much.

[patrickjilbert]

if that is true about james madison then that is pretty sickening. the moment you try to distract the public from government you take steps toward totalitarianism right?

[Cracked Ass]

Fro and jilbert are on point here. I'll add another quote, right from founding father Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty for a measure of security deserve neither security nor liberty."
I have a lot more I could say about this. But the short version is this: at this point in my life, I'm too smart to be a false patriot, and too selfish to be a true patriot. My selfishness will give out before my intelligence in any case, so I may later decide to devote some time to the ACLU if I think America is worth saving.

[imported_SenorSeven]

patrick - its true...if you want quotes..let me know-

im loving our society..regardless of what everyone else thinks.. if it wasnt for capitalism..you wouldnt be doing what you're doing now...

this is what i study basically..the more i learn, the more i like.

[imported_SenorSeven]

ah and to answer your question-

representative form of government = the people vote for who they want and who they feel best represents their ideas, beliefs etc..

madison didnt think the average citizens needed to be worried about politics/government day to day, but rather their own well being-

state/local goverments are a bit more open, but still mostly representative-

the reasoning of this is because of teh dangers of factions- thats what madison wanted to avoid..highly dangerous factions- but if you have a society without factions, you have no freedoms....politics and religion (in the time federalist 10 was written) caused huge factions as one can imagine.....

[imported_SenorSeven]

experience another form of government....stop looking at corruption and only corruption...

[Fro]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
experience another form of government....stop looking at corruption and only corruption...

So we should turn a blind eye to the corrupt politicians doing fucked up shit only to further thier career? Why are you defending our corrupt government? Because you are a patriot? Because you dont care what doesnt directly affect you? Maybe i'm putting words into your mouth, but maybe you should start looking at corruption and learn how fucked up our government really is. You can say all the shit you want about expericencing other goverments. Yeah not all of them are shining beacon's of freedom, yeah some of them are really fucked up. But why should that be an excuse for our goverment to be fucked up?


I agree with Giving Tree Whole heartedly(Sp?). That man knows whats up.

[blahblahblah]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
experience another form of government....stop looking at corruption and only corruption...

be aware of what's going on but constant negativity and always trying to find fault is exausting. eat a better breakfast

[NoamChomsky]

I think nationalism is the more correct term to describe the feeling of the masses rather than patriotism.The blind jingoist editorials in my local newspaper are very disturbing.This is certainly not the first time America has acted like this and im sure its not the last.

[imported_SenorSeven]

if you only accept what the media says...then you're only accepting what you're told.......everyone is saying fuck the media without even thinking of "i can look deepr if i care to"

[iCEBERG]

look, heres the way it is. granted people now have "jumped on the fucking bandwagon" as my boy would put it, who had just recently joined the army before all this shit went down, but that doesnt mean it isnt good. true people are now patriots due to events and not personal decisions, but you know what? fuck it, for what ever reason before or after, they now stand by their country in the same way i do.

i feel america is one of the most crooked countries to have existed from day one, considering i'm indian an i take much pride in that, but guess what? nobody's perfect.

you know how the white man made it up to the indians? casino's and reservations for a generalization. you know what? yea i think its wrong but theres nothing i can do about what has happened but there is something i can do about what will happen.

so as for the current situation, wether your a patriot for this reason or that? i personally dont give a fuck. patriots are patriots. i will stand by you just like you stand by me for that same common bond. for whatever reason. through thick an thin.

i'm an american. be ashamed of our actions maybe? be proud of our accomplishments? why the fuck not? but i swear if you do not take up arms for whatever you believe in, givin the situation requires it, you are a coward.

so good or bad, for or against, as for me i got myself figured out, its not my job to figure out the actions of other people.

but i know what i stand for, an thats all that matters to me.

"why do we we only pray to god when shit goes wrong"

[iCEBERG]

and as for giving tree, the boy knows what hes talkin about.

"the unexamined life is not worth living" - socrates

that was some knowledge that hits so close to home, im almost ashamed of not knowing that for myself.

[imported_SenorSeven]

i know exactly what im talking about-...this is what i fucking do....and hope to do for the rest of my fucking life...is talk this type of bullshit basically.....you're going to find shit corrupted everywhere...but if all you do is bitch about a place...try doing somethingabout it instead of being like the 10 of parachoils and just sitting there- i bet half on here could careless about voting thinking "my vote doesnt count - idrather bitch about it online and say i know what im talking about"...the fuck.

[REGULATOR]

im also getting sick of all this god bless america bullshit....god during the olympics all we are going to see is this god bless america..."i won this medal for the firefighters of 9-11" crap.....seriously, if it took 5,000 lives to wake up america then thats pretty sad

[ASER1NE]

Im just sick of hearing about sept 11 this and that , yeah it was sad , but alot worse things have happened and got far less attention , i think that is sad.........

[REGULATOR]

yea im also getting annoyed of hearing that EVERYTHING is dedicated to sept 11, this sept 11, that sept 11, god damn....america is fuckin naive....if we had to go through half of what any other country had to go through we wouldnt be so fuckin stupid....bombings and terrorist attacks are part of everyday life in parts of teh world

[imported_SenorSeven]

what you two seem to be forgetting - this is the first time we've been "attacked" on our own soil since pearl harbor... and as said before - it takes tragedys to open peoples eyes- make them realize waht they have....what about that is so hard to comprehend? seriously- it might get stale and old hearing if you dont have a mind to think with-

maybe the shti didnt have any type of effect on your life...those people whos it did cant just be like "ah im tired of hearing about sept 11"
the things said by people on this board scare me knowing most are part of my generation...

[ASER1NE]

Originally posted by regulator
yea im also getting annoyed of hearing that EVERYTHING is dedicated to sept 11, this sept 11, that sept 11, god damn....america is fuckin naive....if we had to go through half of what any other country had to go through we wouldnt be so fuckin stupid....bombings and terrorist attacks are part of everyday life in parts of teh world
AMEN

[Pistol]

Considering most of you are "free thinkers" and hate the people telling you what to do and are usually very open-minded, you sure do hate when other people actually stand up for something right or wrong it's something.

[REGULATOR]

im just saying...all thise sept11 banter is really getting annoying....everyday i hear something about sept 11 and its quie frankly played out...the media needs to find something new to feed off off....im not denying the fact that it was a tragic attack and shit...but for freall....the media needs to get off 9-11's "jock"

[ASER1NE]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
what you two seem to be forgetting - this is the first time we've been "attacked" on our own soil since pearl harbor... and as said before - it takes tragedys to open peoples eyes- make them realize waht they have....what about that is so hard to comprehend? seriously- it might get stale and old hearing if you dont have a mind to think with-

thats not it at all , what were saying is that its sad/pathetic that it takes such a tragedy to make ppl see what they have , and that what they have is so fragile.
the fact that its the first attack since pearl harbour isnt an excuse for our own ignorance/niaevety , like REG said , terrorism is life in many other parts of the world , and its sad that our society is so caught up in its own minor lives and troubles that we dont even notice . and it takes a personal attack on the US for us to realise it.....
also that its not that we dont have minds to think with , just the opposite , we have minds to think with , and open minds at that........its close minded self indulging ppl that dont wake up to the realities of life around the world that arent thinking right............EVERYTHING , is dedicated to sept 11......which is honourable , but sad also bc nobody dedicates or raise money for bombings is isreal , or ireland ....or when the embassy in africe was attacked by terrorists...or remembers the dates to when the berlin wall collapsed (nov 9 , 89 ) or the Tiananmen square massacre (june 4 , 89 ) or even the oklahoma city bombing (april 19 , 95 ).......ppl are so bent up on thier own insignificant lives that they dont want to bother to see the real state of human nature , which is appauling.......

[Pistol]

Over 4000 innocent people trying to pay their bills at work killed in a matter of a couple hours. Get off the jock. That's like after Pearl Harbor saying we should stop talking about the war half way through the war. Played out? This ain't a Limp Bizkit song. This is news.

[ASER1NE]

yes i know , and i was quite appauled when i saw it on the news , i am simply stating that alot of bad stuff happens and has happened everyday.......we all should just recognize those tragedies as much as we do this one

[REGULATOR]

compare that to the countless people in Isral, europe, africa, and other countries killed by terrorism, etc over the years, just trying to live their own lives....the starving people in somalia were just as innocent as the office workers in the wtc....just because it happened in a few hours doesnt really mean anything....america is acting all surprised when it shouldnt....they should realize that their is a threat to their ignorant little lives

[Pistol]

I totally agree with the last comment the we SHOULD pay more attention to every day tragedies but then that should be the gripe. That we should talk about other tragedies more NOT we should get over and stop discussing the events of 9/11 or any of the other issues that regard it.

[ASER1NE]

AGREED

[patrickjilbert]

"im also getting sick of all this god bless america bullshit....god during the olympics all we are going to see is this god bless america..."i won this medal for the firefighters of 9-11" crap.....seriously, if it took 5,000 lives to wake up america then thats pretty sad" - regulator

exactly regulator. EVERYBODY is going for some bullshit like that. brace yourselves for the wearing of NewYorkFireDepartment and NewYorkPoliceDepartment gear too.

i'm all for helping everyone out too, but the media and government use it as a tool (as we are the tools also) for buying shit, sending people off to war, and passing laws like the patriot act. [as shown below]

- thousands of americans were killed.. BUY A FORD TRUCK!
- pretend like you knew somebody that died.. FLY A FLAG AND KILL THAT OSAMA MUFUCKER!
- after this terrible tragedy, let's take away some of your priceless freedom for the sake of security (that won't really be that helpful - what constitution?).



osama bin laden is used as a scapegoat. he's one person we can all put a blame on. i'm sure he isn't innocent, but i think he's somewhat of a social figure we all can 'love to hate'. it's probably easier for the gov't and media to get people worked up about. that's all just my opinion and guess though.

it's embarrassing seeing all kinds of kids at school whoring the american flags on their backpacks and satchels. you can't escape the flag anymore. i even saw some guy wearing a NYFD hat yesterday at a gas station. america has gone dumb and blind for the most part. i am guessing that it has been around for quite some time now though...




[img]http://www.ttyl.net/firstamendment/flag%20burning.jpg'>

[willy.wonka]

FUCK THE BULLSHIT!

I LOVE EARTH!!!!I LOVE EARTH!!!

[willy.wonka]

dont you guys realize that bush is doing everything he can....president bush is hear to help and save the "world" actually, from terrorism..
you guys take everything forgranted..bunch of babies..you dont like it?then leave...

[patrickjilbert]

watch out kids, we have a live one

[willy.wonka]

WE ARE AMERICANS AND WE SHOULD BE PROUD AND WE SHOULD STAND TALL AGAINST EVIL SUCH AS BIN "LADIN"......

[Pistol]

I don't see what the big deal is. This is like the 14th thread patrick has started on this subject. I mean if you don't want to hear about it don't make threads about it. I haven't seen one on 12oz for some time now. Even if it's on the news all the time 12oz could have been your haven. What's wrong with buying FDNY shit. Buying stuff will help out our economy, it's getting stagnant and alot of people are not buying shit do to fear of lay offs etc. Maybe me buying that FDNY hat will help pay for a new fire truck that got destroyed. Maybe it will give support to know that we remember those firefighters that died. Can you imagine how that firefighters wife & kids must feel like. Maybe showing our support can somehow make let them know we appreciate what her husband/father was doing? The overwhelming patriotism has nothing to do with the Patriot act getting passed. It made congress and the president easier to do it knowing most of us were behind them pasing that needed bill. But if the majority were against it they probably would of passed it anyways. They have passed plenty of bullshit bills that the public didn't like anyways.

[imported_SenorSeven]

the reason is that its a big deal is because its only the 2nd time we've ever been attacked...

the middle east is used to this shit..all they do is fight...thats why its no big deal to them...

so beacuse its no big deal to them, because they experience suicide bombers constantly, we should just say "hey 9 11...what a day lets never talk about it again?" you guys are fucking idiots- seriously... you try to make some valid points by saying the most stupidest shit i have ever read in my life...and thats not a joke...

whoever said "i love america and if you dont get out"....hmmm you obviously dont believe in what america stands for if you tell someone to get out- figured id point that out as well...

everyone is acting like a precious piece of shit...the reason i said stop looking at corruption and corruption only is because its negative..if you only look at negative...guess what....nothing positive comes out- you guys keep saying "our government our government" if it so bad do something about it...if it sucks that bad....you can do soemthing....and it seems most have no clue whati m talking about since many of the ideas that i mention from the past arent even spoke about........

[ASER1NE]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
the reason is that its a big deal is because its only the 2nd time we've ever been attacked...

the middle east is used to this shit..all they do is fight...thats why its no big deal to them...

youve got to be kidding , ur minds not right

[Agt. Adopus]

I'm a patriot, I wear Nikes!!!

[blahblahblah]

Originally posted by Giving Tree
exausting? ok.. was socrates exhausted when he started asking why? philosophy was BULLSHIT up until then... bullshit.. but SOCRATES made it good.. how? he asked why....

there is a diference between going out of you way to uncover every atrocity the US has ever been apart of, and asking "why"


How have you left the comfort of your more than likely middle class reality to fight these things that happen so often? If the answer is any less than everyday of your life, then that is giving up. Do you understand that grilling up another pseudo-intellectual conversation with your pals or ranting about this on the internet is going to absolutely JACK SHIT, andin fact, while your trying to prove someone else's opionion wrong, there have been more shady bills passed that fuck me and you over?

The need to understand and "wonder", if it even exists, only challenged your bedroom where you get the ideas you have. Is understanding motivating enough for you to get off your computer chair and actually do something to, even in the smallest voice, change the way it alllll works? it sure as hell isn't.

[im not witty]

to whoever said if it wasnt for capitalism we wouldnt be enjoying the lives we have now, youre absolutely right, we'd be enjoying lives ten times better.
what alot of you people dont realize is that no one cares what you say
or who gets bombed, or what they can use to sell you things, as long as you keep buying them. you can buy ford trucks or anarchist books, as long as your buying shit, the oppression continues.

read "culture jam" its a great book, full of interesting information. goodnight.

[jah]

word. the "patriotism" that everyone seems to be claiming in the states is just another passing fad. where was the unity before all the hype came? americans may claim to be patriotic but if they were peace would be established and the fighting within america would diminish. patriotism is following the beliefs that the founding fathers meant for america. life, love, the persute of happiness.... blah blah blah. people arent patirotic because they do not follow the basic principals by which the united states were based upon. when i start seeing more integrity out of people and pride in being good people then i will say that america is patriotic. but this bandwagon of "patriotism" that the ignorant sheep of america have jumped on is as fake as pamela lees tits. just more propoganda bullshti that makes me wish i could bitch slap a whole country.

[--zeSto--]

Originally posted by Agt. Adopus
I'm a patriot, I wear Nikes!!!

ahhh....
we need to pray to the all mighty Dallah !

here's a point that really disturbes me about "God Bless America".
What 'God' are they talking about? Has America invented a new,
multi-faith God who looks like Washington, leads like Lincon and loves like Kenedy?
There is zero mention of Christ. Zero mention of Jah, Allah, Jehova etc.
This new american God is true idolatry, and the dogma is "Patriotism".

How very american...
Well the classic religon doesn't quite meet our needs, so well make our own that's better than anybody else.

[imported_IzzeWST]

Don't like 4-5 thousand people die everyday from smoking
related illnesses??? Why aren't their murderers (tobaco Co.'s)
being attacted with the same vigilance as the WTC perpetrators?
Why aren't we banding together against those killers as we are
againtst the terrorists?
It would seem to me that 4 to 5 thousand people a day is a much
larger problem than 4000 once in our long history. Is it population control?
Or is it because these murderers buy off all of our mainstream politicians?
Or is it because these murderers bring in billions in tax revenues?
Whatever the reason(s), our priorities are all out of wack...

Also, I have a hard time believing that country of our might and resources cannot
find one man in a country smaller than Texas...another story

oh, and uh, I have nothing against smoking-just using it as an exapmple..
if you want you can substitute automobile fatalities in place of smoking..same point

[--zeSto--]

Originally posted by IzzeWST
Or is it because these murderers buy off all of our mainstream politicians?
Or is it because these murderers bring in billions in tax revenues?


yes.

In fact... the entire world's economy was originally fueled by..

Stolen Gold
Stolen Diamonds
Sugar
Slaves
Fur
Tobacco
spices for food
toys for the rich

And then people taxed the products and became rich.

It was the rich cotton merchants (former slave owners who now pay tax)
and the liquor industry (former Bootleggers and Rum runners who now pay tax)
who outlawed Hemp and Marijuana, so they could stay rich.

wellcome to the land of the free.
Praise be to the Dollah.

[BROWNer]

the US government has a job which, arguably, they do better
than any other government....
people in america(generally speaking) don't give a rats ass about anything
except their kids, families, income and possesions...the self...and gossip.
its a big, ugly, nasty ass job to keep the collective
monstrosity of the american public happy and chugging along.
so.......on with the fraud. the more things change, the more they
stay the same.

[--zeSto--]

ok BROWNer...

It's a hard job to keep the masses in check,
but the system is designed to keep the Rich rich, and the Poor poor.

I think most european countries do much better than the USA in terms of
actually supporting the ENTIRE population. The rich are treated well,
and the junkies on the street are treated well. People care about the
state of their country because it's a relative issue. The world wars
forced small countries to have aGlobal Consciousness.

The only problem with America is that they believe the ARE THE WORLD!
Not a part of earth, not a part of the human race...
but the pinacle of evolution, politics, culture and society.

[BROWNer]

maybe you missed my point.
all these comments are not lost on the brownsnax...

[iCEBERG]

peoples firm opinions on the system or whatever whatever dont really fly with me. you are just as uneducated to the ways these complex things work as i am. but i know better then to stand up and preach on something that has a foundation of zero relevance other than the way you believe things to be.

the truth is most people are far far from reality. and they dont even know it.

people try to overstand to much which is why i tend not to get my hands dirty and only make observations.

being for or against a certian situation means to be already in the wrong

[--zeSto--]

nah BROWN...

I completely get your point,
I just thought I was adding to it.

[BROWNer]

iceberg coming with the glaring contradiction...

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by SenorSeven


madison didnt think the average citizens needed to be worried about politics/government day to day, but rather their own well being-



These 2 things go hand in hand.

[patrickjilbert]

somebody brought it back from the dead


awesome.

[imported_SenorSeven]

Clever- madison wanted people to worry about their money...to improve their life...not what the government was doing- the peoples involvement is through voting...and thats all thats necessary according to madison-

[intercept]

ive said this before kinda off subject but kinda not i feel that all those people who wish for world peace or expect it out of no were are stupid before world peace we need world understanding this basically means that how can the world be peace when we dont know the world..(hope i made sence in my paragraph)>...

[bodice_ripper]

As an American living abroad (for most of my life), I have always been very proud of being American. I believe(d) that being American wasn't simply about being born there, but about the ideas in the constitution. Here was a country that would uphold my rights (esp. freedom of speech).
But more than that, America, and more specifically New York IS THE NEW ROME. A huge hub of all sorts of activity; economic, artistic, ethnically diverse and complex. Everyone I have every met has been at least a little in awe of New York; it's one of those places you just have to go eventually. I always said I would go home after the free college available here in Ireland - and I have looked forward to it my entire life
When I watched the towers collapse it disturbed me more than a death in the family, because I saw them as something that would endure longer than I, it was like watching the Parthenon become ash.

Last night I watched the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics. I watched the flag from the WTC being marched in BEFORE the athletes, and I was APPALLED. Dow DARE they HIJACK the games in this fashion? The point of the games, even in ancient Greece, was that war and POLITICS were left outside, and the focus was on the atheletes. What if there WERE a team from Afghanistan? Would they have been allowed to participate?
It got worse, the opening display of ice skating was a hideously allegory-laden moral message to the world: *enter "child of light", child scared by ice warriors, child finds "fire within" to fight back, all the forest dwellers help him, the warriors beaten back, everyone is happy*.
This is VERY SCARY SHIT. This is practically mind control.

They made me ashamed to be American. They made me feel unsafe, more than any terrorist ever could. I doubt whether I will go "home" now.

thousand of BABIES are DYING in AFRICA of AIDS, needless to say they didn't get a mention amidst all the flag waving. Nobody cares because they aren't American.

*BY CONSTANTLY EMPHASISING THE EVENTS A SEPT. 11. YOU ARE CLEARLY DECLARING THAT AMERICAN LIVES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE LIVES OF OTHERS. sound familiar, it should....remember how NAZI GERMANY ALSO HIJACKED THE GAMES...........*

[intercept]

also on the usa tip......i remember one time on t.v(people in usa would not have seen the canadian side so...)the olimpics was showing the 100m and donaven baliey won and got the record then right after america went on talking about some american who won gold in boxing or(i dont really know what sport it was but then again this was a long time ago)then they totally just left the 100m and went on to show an american winning something else...it seemed that when i watched my local station(in canada)it showed every thing yet on the us channels it only showen us people winning....not just on the olmipics but everything they seem to not care about anyone else out side there country..i know alot of people already know this but i just wanted to say it again and get it out the reason why america loves there country and only there country is cause they dont know better most americans dont know jack about anywere else even the most educated............werid huh..!!!...its really funny to see peoples stupidty to other country go as funny jokes(as seen in alot of us t.v shows)....

[Harpo Marx]

shoulda just left this thread where it was.
jilbert, stop acting like some freaking 16 year old anarchist. mothers fathers sisters brothers uncles aunts grandmothers grandfathers sons and daughters were killed when those two planes hit those towers. if people want to salute the flag that stands for the country that they live in then let them do it. it doesnt bother me, and it shouldnt bother you.

[Harpo Marx]

another thing, if you are so pissed off about being a tool (i wouldnt entirely disagree), then dont post on a graffiti message board. get the hell out of your house and freaking do something about it. its not going to do you any good posting sucky drawings that a four year old could do, and making it sound cool that people are setting national symbols on fire. Those flags mean something to some people. People died for us to be free. If you dont want to show any gratitude at all, then think about how it could be. Move to Russia where corruption runs rampant and the government will hold a gun to your head if they dont like what you say.
DO IT!

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Harpo Marx
If you dont want to show any gratitude at all, then think about how it could be. Move to Russia where corruption runs rampant and the government will hold a gun to your head if they dont like what you say.
DO IT!

yes, eat up silently while your fellow human starves for being born in the wrong place. DO IT!:rolleyes:

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Harpo Marx
. Move to Russia where corruption runs rampant and the government will hold a gun to your head if they dont like what you say.
DO IT!

and another thing, there are MUCH worse places right now than Russia for oppresive government. So I'm guessing you used that example due to the bizzare American terror of all things communist. who's a tool......?

[graffsurgeon]

yeah fuck this american pride bandwagon..why dont they display what the government really is..america is made and founded on bullshit artists..on another note..on the evening of september 12th i accompanied my boy on a walk..some suckers ran up on us and he sliced a couple up with a boxcutter and someone called the pigs..arrest and shit but i thought they were going to come up with some new law about crimes with boxcutters after 9/11..i guess theres some law that prevents that..

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by SenorSeven
Clever- madison wanted people to worry about their money...to improve their life...not what the government was doing- the peoples involvement is through voting...and thats all thats necessary according to madison-

How can people vote effectively if they don't pay attention to politics and government? And if their involvement is through voting then they better realize where the people they are voting for find their special interest investors and question the motives behind them, or your vote isn't worth the paper it's marked on.

Also, If you gave your friend a bunch of your own money each month for him to use, without asking him for any back, wouldn't you want to know what the fuck he was doing with all of your hard earned cheddar?? That's what your tax dollars amount to, and I know I personally want to keep the closest tabs possible on where my money is going and what it's being used for.

The idea your talking about is basically Adam Smith's principle of an "invisible hand" guiding what goes on in a market economy such as ours; which in my mind is a full-of-shit theory. And if Madison thought we should only be worried about our personal well being and put our blind faith into the government then he was full of shit as well.

The government is quick to hussle your ass if they catch you sleepin.

[kaesthebluntedwonder]

[img]http://www.mumsnetedit.com/images/tapemeasure.jpg'>

[backcountrywriter]

pride yipee
[img]http://boyscouts.hsonline.com/pride.gif'>

[Harpo Marx]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper


and another thing, there are MUCH worse places right now than Russia for oppresive government. So I'm guessing you used that example due to the bizzare American terror of all things communist. who's a tool......?
right you are. and yes, im aware that there are worse places.
tool as in dink

[Agt. Adopus]

Originally posted by Hue Jass
pride yipee
http://boyscouts.hsonline.com/pride.gif

i like this one better.....
http://64.85.10.41/Undefined/pride.gif

[tue skinny]

hahaha

[patrickjilbert]

harpo, i mentioned nothing about anarchism at all. but if you made that assumption then sorry. i was simply stating my opinion. but cheap shots at my drawings has nothing to do with this at all.

'channel zero' is not exactly the graf section of the boards is it? it's for everything but graf. a lot of people on here have interesting opinions and it's good to hear what everyone has to say.

saying something is doing something.




thanks to all who have posted something worthwile, not "dude your drawings suck my 4 year old cousin could do better you suck dude".

[Agt. Adopus]

Next time you kids wave your flag read these links

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/cia/cia_lynx.html

http://www.fortmason.org/spotlights/1201-tuskegee.html

http://www.vietnamwar.net

http://www.dickshovel.com/coin.html

http://www.ummah.net/albayan/cointelmain.html

http://www.opposeashcroft.com/ashcroft.phtml

and the list goes on and on

[Agt. Adopus]

bump

[patrickjilbert]

yes yes

[intercept]

just listen to patriotism by company flow......