are our soldiers fighting the 'war on terror' really heroes?

[patrickjilbert]

- GNN ARTICLE -
Spin of the Week
PR Watch, February 22, 2002
It was a big week for the American propaganda juggernaut. In Hollywood, blockbuster producer Jerry Bruckheimer got the green light to create a "reality" show featuring American soldiers battling for freedom across the globe. Back at the Pentagon, Rumsfield defended the announcement of a new Defense Dept. office dedicated to, among other things, planting pro-American news stories overseas - stories, that is, which may or may not be true.

Pentagon & Disney/ABC Turn War Into Gung Ho TV Entertainment
"The Pentagon is giving two Hollywood producers access to troops in Afghanistan and around the world to promote its war effort through television's genre of the moment, the reality series. The result is expected to be a 13-part series shown in prime time by ABC entertainment division this year. The producers - Jerry Bruckheimer, who produced the movies "Black Hawk Down' and 'Pearl Harbor,' and Bertram van Munster, whose credits include the reality series ... 'Cops' - intend to tell the 'compelling personal stories of the U.S. military men and women who bear the burden of this fighting,' according to an ABC news release. ... A senior ABC executive who declined to be identified said yesterday that the network's news division complained to top officials at its parent company, Walt Disney, several weeks ago about entertainment producers' handling a documentary series about the war for the network. These complaints, the executive said, were rebuffed."








i was reading an article on Guerilla News (see above for part of the article) and was thinking about this - can we really consider our soldiers heroes?

almost every single person who is in the military right now, whether at home or overseas, did so by choice. it's their job. they were fully aware of the consequences. and much of the 'fighting' against the ill-equipped enemy is done by bombing and missles. they're not getting shot at.

and is fighting this 'war on terror' (which might be better translated into 'the war on whoever doesn't give us our way') a heroic thing? is it heroic to do whatever your government tells you without question? one might say yes, but think about it. doesn't sound too democratic to me, but hey it's the military so it doesn't matter...

i believe that fighting against the nazis and british was great (although i know ww2 wasn't perfect). we got rid of racist maniacs and gained our independence. all sounds great. the 'war on terror' seems too misguided to me. there are way too many other motives and way too much money to be made by this bullshit.

and if there is so much of a need to try to desperatley force our 'good' image on the world, was it that great to begin with?

i don't know. i'm just getting into trying to understand what is going on. any comments on anything or talk would be nice.

[boxcarwilly]

i definately agree that we cannot consider this mindless war heroic, stories of heroism are abound in the women who crouched in mud huts teaching school girls who were never supposed to learn to read how to. and what we bomb them now, we impose our beliefs and governmental policies on a culture we can never ever hope to understand, much like they cannot understand the gross materialism and inhumanity of the US. from the beginning ofscapegoating and blaming in this game, the US wants to come out on top... look who has the most Olympic medals so far, look who was the "hero" in death when he was interrogating a person who believed so strongly in his God that he would die for Allah. this country is on fire and the only water we have is words right now...


i fully believe if you commit to the armed forces you have to be willing to die, if you didnt why would you hold a gun... it is bullshit the US soldiers over there are no more heroic than any murderer...

rant done.

[patrickjilbert]

well put

(i should have been heroic and emailed you and beardo about skating today)

[beardo]

i was heroic today by not crying when i twisted my ankle.

it was fine 5 minutes later.

[patrickjilbert]

i was gonna come back to skate, but i think the police cleared out love park. i was gonna show you my new master p doll. when you squeeze him he says:


" UUUUUGHHH! na na na na! "

oh well.

[ardenchapman]

hero's for what?
killing innocent families, and crashing their own stupid helicopters?
or fighting to keep americas SUV's running?

[Agent Uprise]

Bill Maher (sp?) the host of Politicly Uncorrect got mad heat for saying that shit. His point was who the coward, the motherfucker who flies himself into a building or the person who sits in a warm command center miles from the conflict and shoots off bombs.

[?!?!]

you know i understand how you guys take the stand you do against our war efforts and all. i mean im no joe fact i dont know it all but i do know that yes they may be fucking over other countrys, but look at how we get to live. so one some guy gets pulled over and gets a ticket becuase hes black or you get busted for skateboarding by the cops. wah wah sure those are all bad but i mean we could all be slaves living in huts and all that bullshit. and at the same tim ei know if america stopped doing fucked up shit to other coutries we wouldnt fall to that level of poverty but still. if you dont like the way the country is being ran then move to pakistan. see if your like their politics any better. if they dont suit you move on over to iran. see if your more comforatable with their laws.

and really i dont care about it all, think what you want, but like most of my post. im just bored.

[NoamChomsky]

If i remember right,what Bill Maher said was that U.S. policy makers were the cowards for not taking action sooner.People thought he was calling the soldiers cowards but he just meant the politicians. Dont be misled,there is plenty of fighting still going on.Delta Force and the Special Air Service commandos get shot at plenty.I dont agree with this war but like Vietnam,there are still acts of individual heroism which deserve respect.

[imported_Xeroshoes]

Originally posted by ardenchapman
hero's for what?
killing innocent families, and crashing their own stupid helicopters?
or fighting to keep americas SUV's running?

Haha, that's classic. Fuck SUVs......

[serum]

i was going to go to korea recently because the price, which was already the cheapest flight in asia, has dropped to approx $120. round trip. but then that dumb bastard has to start shit with north korea so with the south koreans rioting burning flags i'm afraid they might want to burn a white boy. i love china too so i figure if i ever want to see it before WWIII i'm going to have to go there soon. also bush came to japan and didnt throw up so he feels it was a success. i think me leaving america was the smartest thing i've ever done in my life. my family are fucking wierdos ever since the sep.11th thing. talking about killing muslims and shit. then some fucking pervert was staring at my girlfriend last night and i said what the fuck are you looking at bitch. and he says i'm from brazil i'm not a muslim. yeah? i give a fuck. blow up your tvs now.

[Pistol]

YES.
Heroes for killing innocent families? Please. All these people talking about the US killing innocent families yet when you talk about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict you want to call these Palestinian Suicide bombers, bombing shopping malls , Revolutionaries and freedom fighters. You mean these "innocent families" pointing guns at us?

[patrickjilbert]

i think palestinians are freedom fighters totally. but that is a whole different topic.

[I Luv Roo]

The term Hero has been way over used and abused in the last six months. Anyone at all involved in this post sept 11 war has been deemed a hero.

On the other side however, I would rather pay more respect to the privates, pleebs and soldiers who are just people like you and me. Maybe they're not "hero's" persay, but they get some props for being soldiers, and doing this stuff without question. They aren't the war mongers or the fat cats who are responsible, but they are doing what they feel is what they can do to earn a living and maybe get and education with the GI bill. Most people join the army because they don't have a very decent income and want to take advantage of the few perks the armed forces offer....and I think alot of them hope that a big war doesn't start. My cousin joined up long enough ago that she got out before any of this happened and she thanks her lucky stars for it. She's not a gun toting nut, or a murderous fiend - just regular folk.

[patrickjilbert]

good point.

i just find it hard to have a great deal of respect for one who does whatever the government says without question.

[ardenchapman]

org posted by ?!?!
but still. if you dont like the way the country is being ran then move to pakistan. see if your like their politics any better. if they dont suit you move on over to iran. see if your more comforatable with their laws.



i thought the point of americas "democracy" was so that the people had a say in how the country was run.
bush saying shit like "you're with me, or against me" sounds a lot like a dictatorship, (like you might expect to find in iran, where ever).
fuck bush.
he's not my fucking leader.


p.s. this war is ALL about suv's and cars. people are dying to keep mideast oil flowing to the us. that's truth.

[iCEBERG]

honestly...

i now could care less about whats going on, wether it affects me or not. yes an ignorant statement but i just stopped caring this morning. i will let my great nation of america bully whoever they want, people will slander our nation regardless and fly planes into our corporations etc... but as of right now

i just dont care.

im going to go out, get a good job, be paid well, become extremely wealthy so i can spoil my kids and wife, and live in the hamptons or a little hut in the backwoods of china. with my little coy pond, paper walls, tons of white rice because i love that stuff, and neat little chinese birds flying above my clean cut grass and the little clear water creek that runs along the border of my yard.

i have chosen to become ignorant. it will not be good for anybody, if everybody else does the same, but as for me, im the first in the movement, which should never happen.

ignorance is bliss and sept. 11 never happened.

much blessings be healthy

[C-O-K PBScru]

MAN FUCK THIS WAR SHIT, IT'S NOT EVEN A WAR AND ALL THIS PRAPROGANDA ON THE NEWS HOW THEY TRY TO SAY THEY ARE HELPING THESE INNOCENT PEOPLE THAT IS JUST TO JUSTIFY THEIR KILLING.

MY TEACHER TRY TO MAKE ME STAND UP FOR THE PLEDGE MONDAY CAUSE HE SAID THERE IS A WAR GOIN ON AND I SAID FUCK YOU I DON'T SUPPORT THIS SHIT AND HE GOT ALL MAD.

PLUS BIN LADEN IS NOTHIN NEW HE HAS BEEN DOIN SHIT LIKE THIS FOR A WHILE AND IF THE GOVERMENT REALLY WANTED TO STOP HIM BACK THEN THEY COULD OF AND THEY COULD OF STOPED THOSE PLANES FLYING IN THE BUILDINGS BUT AMERIKKKA JUST NEEDS SOME SORT OF EXCUSE TO WHIPE OUT WHOLE PLACES SO THEY CAN TAKE CONTROL OF THEM AND SPREAD CAPITALISM.

{THERE CAN NEVER REALLY BE JUSTICE ON STOLEN LAND}

"KRSONE"

[C-O-K PBScru]

I JUST NOW READ WHAT YOU SAID THAT IS SO RIGHT MAN AMERIKKKA IS ALWAYS GETTIN RESOURCES OFF OF OTHER COUNTRIES AND AMERIKKKA IS ALWAYS STACKIN THE CASH AND ALL THESE PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE POOR SHOULD REALLY BE RICH BUT CAUSE IT'S THEIR RESOURCES I MEAN WHERE IN THE HELL IS THEIR MONEY THAT THEY ARE SOPOUSE TO GET.

[boxcarwilly]

alot of the arguments for the war have to do with peoples comments of if you dont like it get out, i love whatever freedom i can grasp in America and that freedom allows me to fight for freedom however i see fit. ardenchapman put it great... using the bush comment. i love the fruited grain america the country is fucking beautiful,until white man imposed his technology and rape on it... i hate the government that feels the need to spread our version of democracy and fight the evils of communism/fascism world wide... if democracy was so fucking great why doesnt it work, why is bush in office when gore won the popular vote? you have to question these things when you live in a country where you are controlled to the extent of spoonfed information... think about how all of this relates to the Bush administration and you will find your answers. i hate to belabor the point but obinladen was in a hospital after the embassy bombings, a cia operative fucking brought him flowers and he was the US's most wanted terrorist at that point in time... so we can kill children from high in the sky but we cannot kill OUR most wanted enemy when he is sick... fuck this is getting old.

kids lite your bottles lets have a bonfire.

[willy.wonka]

they're just doing what thier told to do,like good little robots.
bush is my hero

[willy.wonka]

over 3000 dumb fuck marines navy and army walked around the street of waikiki last night,picking fights with the locals,sexually harassing the women,throwing food at the burger king workers...just showing no sign of respect...some of these guys are officers too.
oh and if you're real lucky...you'll know a couple of teenage girls that were raped by military men in some dark alley..
fucking robots....my friend who doesnt know how to fight took out 5 MARINES.they picked a fight with him...and they lost it.most of them are idiots,trained to do only one thing...to take orders...they are no different than some McDonalds worker.
most of these fucks are ........fuck dude,they're just idiots.trust me.
every military man i ever met.....its no different than jail.you are property.
go AMERICA go

[patrickjilbert]

again, another well put post

[iCEBERG]

like i said before, i still dont care, i will now go back to watchin my bootlegged blackhawk down. this is as close as im gettin to givin a fuq

[C-O-K PBScru]

WELL PUT EVERYONE I LIKE HOW SOMEONE BROUGHT UP HOW THEY PICK FIGHTS AND AND RAPE WOMEN CAUSE THEY DO JUST LIKE ALL THE RACE RIOTS IN AMERICA MOST OF THEM WERE CAUSED BY NAVY FUCKS AND THE ZOOT SUIT RIOTS WERE CAUSED BY THOSE NAVY BASTARDS AND AFTER WW2 WHERE THEY HAD TO GO BACK TO THE COUNTRIES THEY DESTROED AND STAY THERE HOW THEY WERE ALL RACIST TO THE JAPANESS BUT NOT THE THE GERMANS THAT IS SOME MESSED UP STUFF.

THE MILITARY ALWAYS TRY TO COME TO OUR SCHOOL AND RECRUIT PEOPLE TO THERE BRAINWASH CAMP TO BE BLOOD THRISTY ,RAPIST ROBOTS.

[ardenchapman]

Originally posted by iCEBERG
like i said before, i still dont care, i will now go back to watchin my bootlegged blackhawk down. this is as close as im gettin to givin a fuq

i know you don't care, but for the sake knowledge...

it's funny that black hawk down is brought up. because that movie is based on a real fucked up story also.

the true story is that when the u.s. black hawk when down, and the crew was fighting for they're lives, they were being attacked by women and kids, throwing rocks and molotovs.

you know why?

because the whole world hates the u.s., we were over they're killing those kids dads, those womens brothers and husbands, and those townspeople were fucking pissed.

you know how those marines got out?

they shot the hell out of those women and kids.
based on a true story my ass.

i heard this in an interview with a marine that was on the 'black hawk down'.

and people wonder why someone would want to fly planes into shit here...

i'm moving to canada, fuck this place.

[patrickjilbert]

they were army rangers and delta force actually, not marines.

but yeah they barely go out of there.

[imported_Tesseract]

There must be a distinction between heroism and bravery.
Being a good soldier requires bravery, however bravery doesnt always have to do with being smart or serve a belief.
Heroic actions are judged by their results in the long run, or their intention in the first place.
Saving your ass (because thats what it's all about in the army) may require a brave action but its not something people will remember and thank you for. Blowing up people your goverment used to tap in the back 5 years ago isnt something worth fighting for.
The only heroes i see in the whole 'war against terror' thing are the firemen that had to deal with the WTC mess. They (apart from the dead) are the ones that tasted war in the worst way when not being trained for. They experienced horror in their own ground and they risked/given their lifes for a cause worth fighting for.

Keep in mind that special forces soldiers, take pleasure on what they do. They're not your average joe and they're dying for some action. The only difference they have in comparison with a regular killer is that they are legal and manipulated, making them society-friendly.
When it comes to regular soldiers, what can i say, i feel sorry for them but choices are choices.
It seems that the US army is a mercenary army after all. Operating for interests that dont concern the people. Notice that echelon was and still is used mostly for industrial spying.

When it comes to ignorance, if you can afford it, go ahead. Living in the states as a middle class citizen gives you the luxury to just dont give a fuck about what happens to the rest of the world. Living in the rest of the world forces you to learn about US policy and actions just because it has a big impact on your life. You can be ignorant in both cases but when shit comes your way (it always does at sometime) you wont know why. You'll become the blind carrier of things you dont understand.

Palaistinians are freedom fighters, and when they point guns at your face from that distance you must wonder why, the 'no vietnamese ever called me nigger' line pretty much explains some shit.

[patrickjilbert]

yeah, that was a good quote from who? mohammad ali? i'm sure it shut up whoever it was addressed to.

[imported_Tesseract]

Yeah, it was Ali...talking about heroes

[iCEBERG]

nah it showed em murk a chick. they shot some dude, an some lady came up and picked up his gun an pointed it at those dudes an the hit her up pretty good. it showed some guy running through the hummers with his dead kid an shit. it showed a soldier murk this other dude with his kid right next to him cause he busted his ass comin out a house and landed in from of him. an i know the real deal behind it, well as much as i could be told and see/hear. but anyways it was a dope movie, now im going to watch iron monkey then zoolander again cause im that bored. and make some chocolate milk.

but you know what like i said i dont really care but, right or wrong, this or that, im amerikkkan an maybe im brainwashed but id fuck somethin up for this country, give me a gun an point me in their direction, somebodys gettin hurt.

[richard kyel]

Originally posted by boxcarwilly
i definately agree that we cannot consider this mindless war heroic, stories of heroism are abound in the women who crouched in mud huts teaching school girls who were never supposed to learn to read how to. and what we bomb them now, we impose our beliefs and governmental policies on a culture we can never ever hope to understand, much like they cannot understand the gross materialism and inhumanity of the US. from the beginning ofscapegoating and blaming in this game, the US wants to come out on top... look who has the most Olympic medals so far, look who was the "hero" in death when he was interrogating a person who believed so strongly in his God that he would die for Allah. this country is on fire and the only water we have is words right now...


i fully believe if you commit to the armed forces you have to be willing to die, if you didnt why would you hold a gun... it is bullshit the US soldiers over there are no more heroic than any murderer...

rant done.

dude you are so fuckin confused. we are trying to impose our beliefs on them because they believe they should kill us. their beliefs are completely fuckt. if they werent over there fighting you could be dead right now. but you such a fuckin pussy you act like you are all against what our country is doing as an excuse not to be over there. all you ever do on here is pick apart what everyone elses opinion is. nobodys perfect and there are no simple ways to resolve shit like this. if it was my choice i would have blown there whole fuckin country up. 99% of them cant think for themselves. they were all on the talibans side and we got rid of the taliban and now they are all for us. fuck those tools. i have so much more too say but im tired and i will keep my opinions to myself

[imported_Tesseract]

Good choice

[richard kyel]

Originally posted by Tesseract


Keep in mind that special forces soldiers, take pleasure on what they do. They're not your average joe and they're dying for some action. The only difference they have in comparison with a regular killer is that they are legal and manipulated, making them society-friendly.
When it comes to regular soldiers, what can i say, i feel sorry for them but choices are choices.
It seems that the US army is a mercenary army after all. Operating for interests that dont concern the people. Notice that echelon was and still is used mostly for industrial spying.


i think your opinion doesnt cover everyone i have a friend over there because he joined the army so he could have a less hard time paying for college. they dont want to kill people. he basically said boot camp was fun but its not as fun when the bullets are coming at your head

[d-town_bomber]

no they are not heroes

[imported_Tesseract]

Yeah, when i say 'choices are choices' thats exactly what i mean.

[richard kyel]

the special forces who were over there for that whole thing when the black hawk went down were protecting food we sent over there to help their starving. and in return for it they chose to kill our soldiers and show absolute disrespect for their bodies after they were dead. how can you say our countries policies are so bad every other country is so much worse. our goverment does some shady shit but not half as bad as some other countrys.

[imported_Tesseract]

Although i doubt that...
Food was sent along with bombs, the taliban prisoners where left to be slaughtered by the northers...ugly shit happen in wars.
And aparently US policies fuck so much with other countries that its not even funny, especially when you question the reasons.
Apart from all that, you cant praise your self for having one eye when others are blind, especially when rippin eyes your self.

[Asid]

The only reason were fighting them is because our citizens wouldnt be able to handle it if we didnt...Our goverment could give a flying fuck less that Afghanistan is still killing their own citizens and using them and brainwashing them just like how America brainwashes 70% of their citizens its a fucking joke and so are the olympics...

[NoamChomsky]

The west became powerful exploiting other parts of the world.If you were in a fucked up situation that seemed hopeless,sticking a bomb on your chest and running into a crowded market might seem like the only way you could fight back.Africa and Asia are the sites of most of the major ancient civilizations.Its easy to call Arabs savages and shake your head at Africa saying "you guys will never learn will you?" but Imperialism is at least partly responsible for their descent into chaos. While I agree with Tesseract that special forces soldiers probaly look forward to action.I doubt they consider themselves as in the business of killing defenseless people.What do you guys think the army is about?Youre there to take orders blindly and it is not a democracy remember soldiers follow the UCMJ not the constitution.

[iCEBERG]

well its basically like this. these men and boys go out there and risk their lives to protect YOU. if you got into a gun fight for example with your neighbors, wether right or wrong, lets say its because your brother stole their car, you are NOT going to let them shoot at your friends/family no matter what the reason is, right or wrong, their fighting for themselves and you. people say "i know fucking everything this is whats happening this is why and this is why its wrong"

you know what? your fucking wrong. period.

you think these people go out there and do this shit cause they like killing people" very few do but most? nope, your fucking wrong.

you think those who go out there to kill people feel that way after shit hits the fan an they a hear a bullet go cracking by their head it was so fucking close, they most likely dont.

im tired basically of people telling me this is how it is, this is why something happens and this is why they know it all. well you dont, and neither do i, i luckily can recognize that. some people are just so thick headed and caught up in their own beliefs and think their right all the fucking time that you get sucked into a little hole where it would take a swift boot to your head to realise "hey, maybe im wrong"

i wouldnt be suprised if half of you people out their that say its wrong or whatever, went to go fight for what you thought was right, and heard a bullet crack by your head and would turn around and curl up like a fucking fetus only so other people could covor your ass.

look basically what im saying is...

"dont act like you know what the fuck is going on, because i sure as fuck dont, while the difference between me and you, is i dont pretend to know everything and base my firm, automatically right opinions on shit i couldnt tell you about first hand"

i just had to get this off my chest, fuck what you think, you DON'T know everything, so dont act like you do, thank you and have a good fucking night.

[BROWNer]

wow.

[iCEBERG]

yea incase you couldnt tell i just hate when people pass judgement on topics they think they've got all figured out when in reality... well you know where this reply's goin.

it sounds like you might have gotten my point, and i wouldn't be suprised if it made sense to you, in just glad you didnt come back with shit talkin like i know im bound to get by tomorrow morning.

so either your reply was sarcasm or it touched home, either or i can't tell, but atleast you didn't act 13 in your reply, and i respect that.

ill get up...

[ardenchapman]

Originally posted by richard kyel


we are trying to impose our beliefs on them because they believe they should kill us. their beliefs are completely fuckt. if they werent over there fighting you could be dead right now. but you such a fuckin pussy you act like you are all against what our country is doing as an excuse not to be over there.
yo, "they" have been pissed at us for decades. and they haven't killed you or me yet. i don't think you need to worry about it.
less than 5,000 people died in the wtc. but u.s. sactions have killed 5 million in iraq... what's worse? can you blame people for hating the u.s.?
like the neighbor senerio someone used above, only we fucked them over first. that's the part your missing, they didn't just blow up the pentagon for no reason.
Originally posted by richard kyel

if it was my choice i would have blown there whole fuckin country up. 99% of them cant think for themselves.
ironically, you sound like 99% of brainwashed americans reguratating the shit bush et al. pours down your throat.
i feel sorry for you... but there's still hope, just learn the facts...

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by Tesseract


Keep in mind that special forces soldiers, take pleasure on what they do. They're not your average joe and they're dying for some action. The only difference they have in comparison with a regular killer is that they are legal and manipulated, making them society-friendly.
When it comes to regular soldiers, what can i say, i feel sorry for them but choices are choices.
It seems that the US army is a mercenary army after all. Operating for interests that dont concern the people. Notice that echelon was and still is used mostly for industrial spying.



You can't lump all soldiers, or all special forces soldiers into one category like that. It's showing just the kind of ignorance you are not so much in support of across america.

I attended military school when I was 17, by choice, because of an ex-airborne ranger who helped raise me and taught me and my schoolmates army tactics, played paintball with us, taught us martial arts and swordfighting, and meditated and did yoga with us. He inspired me to learn this stuff that was basically just fun activities when you're a kid, but may come in handy for basic survival, even for painting - I approach the streets with much more awareness because of all the night training we did, and I learned how to anticipate situations, open my ears and eyes with more sensitivity towards my environment. I still am friends with this guy, and he has the most integrity that I know in a person - and the other wierd thing is that he does NOT like to talk about his ranger days....I think he had to do some fucked up shit, and that was when there was no 'official' war going on. Once we asked him if he saw anyone die, and he said yeah - but didn't go into it.

I thought military school would be fun like what this guy taught me and my schoolmates, but it turned out to be a bit more frat-like, and wierd, and sometimes I wonder why the hell I chose to do it, but it was certainly an experience....maybe not all that great, but I also have a little empathy for your everyday soldier, not that I condone their public behavior and lack of manners and civility towards the people in hawaii...

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by patrickjilbert
good point.

i just find it hard to have a great deal of respect for one who does whatever the government says without question.

I certainly don't defend stupid decisions, and I am no one to simply follow orders either...so I feel ya there.
I think it may be the same reason why someone may put all their time and money into one of those ITT tech colleges that advertise - because they will get them to a point where they can maybe learn some skills and hopefully get a decent job.

My cousin was in the division which repaired the vehicles, so she thought that she would have great training in car maintainence and repair and that when she got out she'd have a decent job - but unfortunately she couldn't find anything in that realm...so it doesn't always work out. I'd actually say that it almost never works out like they say in the recruitment commercials.

The sept 11 and war that followed, to me, seems like a big scam, and one of the benefits, among many others, was that armed forces recruitment went WAY up on sept. 12th.

[HAL]

I agree partially with what you're saying Patrick. At the same time, the US military employs millions of people. To say that they're all mindless drones is a little foolish. You sound like a smart guy, so you should realize that these are peope just like you and I, just a different decision about what they want to do with their life. Being in the army isn't an outlet to release bloodthirst. People want to learn some discipline. They want to stay out of trouble, and maybe even go to college. I think the military must be mostly kids that are poor as fuck and are more scared of living a life with no education or future than maybe dying in a war. Maybe it's a selfish goal, but man....when you're dead broke with no hope of ever making enough money to support your kid, let alone send him to college, the army looks great, even if you have to potentially die for something you don't believe in. I really don't think people join the military to kill people. I never heard on veteran ever rave about shooting someone. I seen a lot of them shed a lot of tears thinking about people they killed and friends that died. Someone willing to risk his life for a better future for his family or himself is a hero to me.
I also think this "war on terror" is motivated by oil, land and capitalism. Even by the most skewed right wing thinking, the agression on the part of the middle east stems from our interference in their politics and way of life, to ensure that we get enough of their national resources to fuel our own economy. It's an amazing display of self interest and greed, but the cowards aren't regular people. It's politicians and the CEOs that push them to protect their interests. The dollar is the guilty party. I'm not talking about money to survive or send your kid to school, because that's the 20th century version of farming so your family can survive, but money to line already over-stuffed coffers. The guilty party is Rich White America, not blue collar america. You or I could have been in the military with a few small changes to the course of our youths. My pop could have lost his job and lost the house, and where would I be? My only opportunity to get a good job and succeed would be the army, where they'd pay for at least some of my college tuition.

Tease, you really gotta get out of suburbia and see the real world. I get more and more disgusted with the way you just soak up the bourgouis lifestyle of upper class americans and think it "ain't no thang". The emphasis on all things material is disgusting. I don't think I'd buy an SUV of any size, even if I could afford it somehow. I'd be too ashamed of myself. The SUV is a symbol of everything fucked up about the United States. It's not the amount of gas it wastes, although that's a big factor, but the way it symbolizes american love of excess. Life is not a product to accessorize.

[patrickjilbert]

hal, it probably should have been presented differently.


"I get more and more disgusted with the way you just soak up the bourgouis lifestyle of upper class americans and think it "ain't no thang". The emphasis on all things material is disgusting."

^ good point

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by HAL

Tease, you really gotta get out of suburbia and see the real world. I get more and more disgusted with the way you just soak up the bourgouis lifestyle of upper class americans and think it "ain't no thang". The emphasis on all things material is disgusting. I don't think I'd buy an SUV of any size, even if I could afford it somehow. I'd be too ashamed of myself. The SUV is a symbol of everything fucked up about the United States. It's not the amount of gas it wastes, although that's a big factor, but the way it symbolizes american love of excess. Life is not a product to accessorize.

The other day at a light there was a Chevy Blazer from the 80's right next to a brand new 2000 model Blazer - it was unbelievable! the difference in size, the new one was probably more than twice of it's predecessor!
My dad used his 80's Blazer to plow snow in the winters and it had plenty of power, so that was certainly adequate, and he still has it -
But the newer sizes are too fucking excessive - what the size alone represents is shameful!

[jah]

Originally posted by patrickjilbert
i was gonna come back to skate, but i think the police cleared out love park. i was gonna show you my new master p doll. when you squeeze him he says:


" UUUUUGHHH! na na na na! "

oh well.


haha.

[mental invalid]

"Rumsfield defended the announcement of a new Defense Dept. office dedicated to, among other things, planting pro-American news stories overseas - stories, that is, which may or may not be true."



um actually on the "meet the press" yesterday morning Rumsfield categorically denied all of these and was quite livid about halting any ideas that were in favor of such actions when the question was brought up...realize that the way modern media is set up, most of the US offices have offices in foreign lands or associations with foreign media outlets...now assuming that most are responsible journalists and will cross check references around the globe...the government would run the insane risk of being hammered and losing its credibility, i know i know it barely has any left as its is


...as far as GNN vs CNN go...you cant make either your source for media and news...its really easy to be a lazy media consumer.....im certainly at fault...i may read one newspaper and maybe a website and perhaps some hardball/meet the press...but if your really gonna be a socially responsible media critic then you really need to be aware of all aspects of mainstream and alternative medias...its not fucking easy and its a royal pain in the ass, but you cant really hammer rumsfield, or any other media topic without first hitting all the media and getting multiple sides of every story...and that is a full time job....


does anyone here deny that the taliban government was NOT oppresive?

[imported_Tesseract]

I feel the need to clarify one thing.
I aint saying that everysoldier is either bloodthirst or ignorant. And i really believe that 80 percent of these kids are kids like you and me.
My point is that choices in life just work that way. You see, army is army, and the primary reason it exists is to fight wars. I dont wanna sound like a dick when i'm saying that but noone cant deny the fact that joining the army for anyreason can get you into trouble when all you tried to do is to avoid trouble, or get educated, preserve a higher quality of life for your self.
There's no doubt that there's a problem with the education system when someone has to join the army in order to get educated. And that fact being presented as a cool reason to join the army is misleading and braiwashing at least. It surely raises issues about how things work in general.
Bottom line, everyone has to cope with life but the way we do it has great importance. Options have their advantages and disadvantages. I can understand and respect needs but 'any means necessary' isnt something that makes you proud either justifies all your actions.

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by mental invalid

does anyone here deny that the taliban government was NOT oppresive?

huh? I hate those double negative questions...why deny it, you know they are/were.

Does anyone here AGREE that the Taliban WAS oppressive?
yes.

[mental invalid]

...hmmm...perhpas i could have phrased it better, but the statement above is not a double negative...

[mental invalid]

oh and the reason i aske the question is cause for all the chatter about military strikes and the ground "war" and other tactics, does anyone of those critics feel that the taliban should have remained in power?....

[boxcarwilly]

Originally posted by Asid
The only reason were fighting them is because our citizens wouldnt be able to handle it if we didnt...Our goverment could give a flying fuck less that Afghanistan is still killing their own citizens and using them and brainwashing them just like how America brainwashes 70% of their citizens its a fucking joke and so are the olympics...

this is completely not true, althogh i do agree with the "please the plebian" attitude of it, i will say there is alot more than that to it. first off if you know your government and have been watching any news source there are a majority of experts who will vouch for the fact that the US government knew about it and chose not to do a God damn thing, would this be anything new? fuck no. the us government has no respect for human life, American citizen or foriegn. need i bring up the tuskegee airmen, need i bring up "mosquito spraying" on long island in which millions of women have been afflicted with breast cancer, need i bring up agent orange tests within closed communities in the early fifties... there is no respect for human life.
in my mind the minute those planes tragically flew into the WTC it screamed inside job, tho i couldnt possibly concieve of the motive at the time. and the supporting evidence that keeps being released affirms that thought. whether it was our "men" directly or indirectly involved this was a move to "start a war" to express our imperialistic oil thieving hands to more countries than we already have.

***tho i may say that oil is a major surface cause for all the actions that transpire, i feel it is deeper, if the whole world is under the US's thumb guess what... NWO. yay.

Originally posted by mental invalid

does anyone here deny that the taliban government was NOT oppresive?

do i agree with the Taliban government, NO. do i think they shouldve remained in power? this gets arduous and long, i believe that sooner or later in the goodness of humanity that sometimes exists, the power balance in Afghanistan would have been restored. i do NOT agree with American forces being involved in any other country except ours, i fully belive in a form of isolationism, i think that the US should not be dipping its hands in foriegn oil, we should learn ways to use our own resources feed our homeless and educate our population (to some extent) and until we have the "perfect" running country we should stay the fuck out.
but capitalism drives our country not our government... so will this ever happen no.


**** i do not pretend to know everything that happens, or expect everyone to think i am right, these posts tend to become a form of debate, and unlike many others who attempt to sway opinion i try to use documented and agreeable fact to prove my theories, as any debate would. i dont pull things out of the air, and i do filter my news. i watch cnn and i also read infoshop i take what makes sense in a logical working order.

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by patrickjilbert
i believe that fighting against the nazis and british was great (although i know ww2 wasn't perfect). we got rid of racist maniacs and gained our independence. all sounds great.

Excuse me??

[imported_the last slave]

theres no question that US (like every other country) does shady shit. but alot of what's said on here is always one-sided. anyways we can argue about what our country does and how wrong we are but at the end of the day we are the ones that benefit from it. Not saying that bullying other countries is right but if we didn't we probably wouldn't have some of the luxuries we have. Honestly, how many of you would bitch if god forbid the price of gas goes up a penny or some sweatshop gets closed down and causes you not to get your brand new sneakers before the first day of school?

[iCEBERG]

either or when all is said and done afgahnastin will be better off then they were before we stepped in. period.

[patrickjilbert]

i, for one, would sacrafice nearly all my 'luxurues' for a government that wasn't so fucked up.

but then again, those who would aren't in the majority.


and as for the americans who are trying to better themselves by joining the military.... that's hard to say whether they were right regardless. they're STILL supporting our government and military by joining, although i somewhat understand their position. doesn't make it right though. whether they want to kill or not, they're still fuel for the machine.




"i don't care if all of those camel jockies die as long as i get cheaper oil. huh hah!" - upper class america regarding his mercedes SUV

[dukeofyork]

arden chapman, you have just earned yourself the jackass of the year award, how do you feel?


you just said that we have killed 5 million in iraq by sanctions....how many do you think hussein has killed because they are kurds?



some of you people fucking make me wonder, how the FUCK do you remember to breathe when saying shit THAT FUCKING DUMB?

if you dont like america so much, at least like the fact that you can criticize the government and still be allowed to live AT ALL. you make a comment against hussein in iraq, YOURE FUCKING DEAD.

so shut your mouth until you can at least make a remotely intelligent fact based comment.

[imported_the last slave]

Originally posted by patrickjilbert
i, for one, would sacrafice nearly all my 'luxurues' for a government that wasn't so fucked up.

***yea sure.


and as for the americans who are trying to better themselves by joining the military.... that's hard to say whether they were right regardless. they're STILL supporting our government and military by joining, although i somewhat understand their position. doesn't make it right though. whether they want to kill or not, they're still fuel for the machine.

*** so do you believe that noone should joins the military?


everbody body can point out problems but noone has practical solutions

[dukeofyork]

if we didnt have sanctions against iraq, do you think that those 5 million would have gotten food?

fuck no, unless we had killed saddam when we had the chance in 1990.


how many people died in the soviet union cause they made criticisms of their government?

[mental invalid]

....i do not believe in isolationism....

[patrickjilbert]

yes, i'm thankful for being able to criticize anything, but are we supposed to just 'shut up and be thankful'?

that's almost like the classic "love it or leave it!" line




i, for one, would sacrafice nearly all my 'luxurues' for a government that wasn't so fucked up.

***yea sure.

what a useless reply. you may think all this talk is useless, but it's better than not saying anything. everyone can learn a lot from discussions like this. no solutions yet, but at least we're talking about it.

[dojafx]

Ok, time for me to drop some knowledge...

Will Afghanistan Be Better After The U.S. Steps In?
-The answer is no, the group that now controls afghanistan, commonly refered to as the Northern Alliance held Kabul, afghanistans capital from a period of i believe 1992 to 1996, during that period a warlord in the northern alliance was angry for some reason one night and decided to take it out on afghani citizens, around 1 million were killed

How many people died in the soviet union as a result of critisizing the government?
-About 750,000 when Joseph Stalin was in power, no other leaders had executions or anything like that for subversive behavior.

Something along the lines of "oh, the palestinians suck"
-Well, the reason Palestinians don't like the U.S. is because their sons and daughters are killed with bombs that have "made in the u.s.a." written on them and the continued U.S. backing of the criminal israeli occupation.

Total Number of U.S. Soldiers Killed Since The Revolutionary War - about 1.5 million

Total number of vietnamise killed in the span of about 2 decades - 3 million
Number of those vietnamise who were civilians-over 1.5 million

You do the math, what side does the scale lean to?

P.S. Viva Fidel Castro...

[dukeofyork]

some of you still make me wonder...
words cant even begin to express it.

[dukeofyork]

Originally posted by dojafx


Total number of vietnamise killed in the span of about 2 decades - 3 million
Number of those vietnamise who were civilians-over 1.5 million

You do the math, what side does the scale lean to?

P.S. Viva Fidel Castro...


well heres a thought for you:

when you have "civilians" that also dress in all black at night sometimes and carry an ak47 and grenades, you might think twice about it.
everyone was suspect, and the south vietnamese (arvn) were worse about killing innocents than we were.

[dukeofyork]

now the killing of whole towns is another matter, i cant completly back that up.

but if youve made friends with some people that you are in a unit with, and youve been out in the field for two or three days, and youve lost a couple friends to some viet cong, youre nerves would be fried and the first wrong move by a suspect you would probably be a little bit hot too.
but you and i will probably never have that problem come up. at least i hope for both your and my sake.

[willy.wonka]

we were in military school and my drill sargent called out a handful of us and told us we were picked out of the draft to fight in a war....
we were so fucking happy...we were able to really kill people.the whole class cheered us on.WE WERE GOING TO WAR..we were brainwashed...
and i realized it after the drill sargent told us that he was just kidding and that we just had to do some work...
when we walked the streets,all we did was pick fights,when i would introduce myself..."call me by my last name...i can kick your ass"
i was a machine!!!
when i was gangbangin...i was in three gun fights...bullets wizzed by from a shooter 10ft away...i still lived....i saw some of my homies jump and duck...but me and my homie were down...does that make me a hero?i think i was brainwashed..:)
one of the only real heros i can think of right now is that guy who took the plane down with some others on september 11th.
is this all the human race is good for?war?
it seems like the heros pop up everywhere during the wars...propaganda?
well i have a lot of negative things to say about the us government,so i think i should let you believe what you want.america is a good place to live..not destroy.a handful of nations think we are harboring the devil...i think we should listen to that. i see what they are talking about...



most military men i know talk about how bored they are,cause there is no war..my comand in military school said if we joined the military...we wouldnt be happy,cause there will be no more wars..i think those military men and women who have children think twice about killing and think more of surviving...theres your heros.

my moms friend was in the real action of black hawk down..he was shot 9 times...he said it was all bullshit and that the movie gave credit to the wrong people...the real credit goes to the ones who killed plenty...now thats disturbing...he now is with his sister,whom is sick from luekimia and shits herself...he picks her up and stands in the shower with her to bathe her...thats more of a hero than the one he was in "black hawk down"....
bla bla bla

[patrickjilbert]

that's pretty interesting about the black hawk down guy. i got more respect for him helping his sister with lukemia than him shooting at people.

[willy.wonka]

yeah,me too.he's a really cool guy,i wish that he never had to kill anybody.

[patrickjilbert]

have you met him?

[ardenchapman]

Originally posted by chozer
arden chapman, you have just earned yourself the jackass of the year award, how do you feel?

you just said that we have killed 5 million in iraq by sanctions....how many do you think hussein has killed because they are kurds?

some of you people fucking make me wonder, how the FUCK do you remember to breathe when saying shit THAT FUCKING DUMB?

if you dont like america so much, at least like the fact that you can criticize the government and still be allowed to live AT ALL. you make a comment against hussein in iraq, YOURE FUCKING DEAD.

so shut your mouth until you can at least make a remotely intelligent fact based comment.

i feel great.
nobody was defending hussian, i'm not sure where that came from, but i guess we are agreeing that a lot more than 5 MILLION people are dead.
do you think that they were all speaking out against thier government?
(and if they were, what does that mean?)

black panthers spoke out against this great u.s. of a.
fred hampton is dead.
hewy newton is dead.
and many many more.
dr. king did too. he's dead.
malcom x. dead.

so excuse me if i don't believe you when you say that america is so tolerant of free thought. and no, i don't like america. fuck america.

so, are you ready to accept this jackass award? i think you deserve it more than me... you've been much more dedicated.

[serum]

just posing a question. why is it that americans see themselves as seperate entities from their government but yet see everyone else as the same. heros don't kill civilians, terrorists do. sanctions in iraq aren't doing shit to sadaam, they're just killing off the old, the poor, the sick and the young. thus leaving the iraqi people obsolete. therefore they present no further threat to america for awhile. its scary to think of how many people in the world have had to suffer because of their government but yet americans finally get something as tragic as an airplane into an american symbol and now we're like what the fuck did we do? we are perfect. its not justifiable but i respect anyone that is willing to die for what they believe and i respect the people that killed themselves. even how wrong it was. they obviously felt pretty strong about their decision. maybe we should learn from our mistakes. attacking other countries isn't learning its repeating.

[richard kyel]

arden the reason we arent dead is because we have been over there for ages fighting them and have spies and shit over there so we can stop the shit ahead of time. if werent doing shit to stop them we would have been dead by now.. and your calling me brainwashed. what makes violence wrong??? nothing everything is an opinion. just because your hippy mother brainwashed you doesnt make everyone elses views wrong

[dukeofyork]

Originally posted by ardenchapman



so, are you ready to accept this jackass award? i think you deserve it more than me... you've been much more dedicated.

ha ha...you brought up one thing on iraq and it was incredibly vague, so you can keep your jackass award, cause im sure that many of those 5 million you claim died were killed for reasons less than just speaking out against their government.

way to point out a few instances that have slipped my mind. i can stand up for king, it is a shame that he was killed. a brilliant man with a peaceful message that many were not ready for yet. malcolm x on the other hand, i wont defend. an anti-semite has no rights claiming his freedom at the expense of others. as for the first two, the names sound familiar but i cant remember the stories, so i wont begin to front like i know.

and yes, it does make all of us wrong. peace would be much more effective if others werent hell bent on destroying us. ever heard of the hegemony theory? (i believe thats what its called.)



i believe our time in the lime-light is almost up.

[dukeofyork]

its another finger pointing contest here...he he......whos really brainwashed? whos really to blame?

[boxcarwilly]

Originally posted by richard kyel
arden the reason we arent dead is because we have been over there for ages fighting them and have spies and shit over there so we can stop the shit ahead of time. if werent doing shit to stop them we would have been dead by now.. and your calling me brainwashed. what makes violence wrong??? nothing everything is an opinion. just because your hippy mother brainwashed you doesnt make everyone elses views wrong

you watch way too much foxnews son, america if we didnt have our hands in every cuntworldwide we would not have issues. so what a large building with several thousand people get blown up on US soil, yes its devastating to the people and families involved, on a global scale ha its laughable, on a scale in terms of the hell that the US puts third world countries, non-democracies, and animals through on a daily basis it is even more egocentric to say that this affected us that this was the day the world changed. besides it being preconceived and unprotected it was meant to rally public affection towards a bloodthirsty government.

what i find funny is by the new patriot act, i am a terrorist... a patriot is usually defined by someone who is defiant against the injustices in their own country, modern patriots were, tho raping natives and slaves defiant of oppresive british rule, and so they fought, and tho we may have our faults we need to continue to speak in open forums like this and converse on what we think is fact vs hollywood. the patriot act states that anyone dissenting against BUSH's ideals is a terrorist... its been said before we are no longer anywhere near a democracy, when the President of a COuntry says you are either with me or against me... makes me think of hitler. He isnt even legally our president the fucker lost. Blacks would never vote a republican into office but in florida they did, why is noone not still pissed off about this obvious clusterfuck.


fred and huey were black panthers chozer. and as for defending anti semites, you are defending BUSH who is hell of a lot worse then an anti semite he is anti civilazation, pro destruction, pro 1984.

[boxcarwilly]

and for everyone who wants to refute what i say about the bloodlust of our country, hear it from one of your elected officials

"Our overriding purpose, from the beginning right through to the present day, has been world domination-- that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible; violently, if necessary. But the purpose of [U.S.] foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to facilitate our exploitation of resources."
Ramsey Clark, US Attorney General

[patrickjilbert]

wow, already to page 3.

very interesting points, boxcar and everyone else.

[BROWNer]

you should provide a link/news source to your quotes boxcar....

[boxcarwilly]

i got it from utnereader... they got it from an interview in the sun.
you think it was taken out of context??? read the sun article.

[ardenchapman]

Originally posted by richard kyel
arden the reason we arent dead is because we have been over there for ages fighting them and have spies and shit over there so we can stop the shit ahead of timeif werent doing shit to stop them we would have been dead by now..

maybe you haven't heard about this yet... but, actually russia was "over there" fighting "them"...
and the USA funded "them"(gave bombs and money) to fight russia.
so, when you say, "if we werent doing shit to stop them we would have been dead by now.. " what are the fuck do you think you're talking about?

[ardenchapman]

thanks boxcar for your support.

[mental invalid]

boxcars article in "the sun"

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html


good point though brown, guys if youre gonna make references back em up as if it were a term paper....not saying you misquoted at all boxcar, but it gives a person an opportunity to read it themselves and form their own opinion and helps to spread news sources and most importantly knowledge....

[richard kyel]

Originally posted by ardenchapman


maybe you haven't heard about this yet... but, actually russia was "over there" fighting "them"...
and the USA funded "them"(gave bombs and money) to fight russia.
so, when you say, "if we werent doing shit to stop them we would have been dead by now.. " what are the fuck do you think you're talking about?

we gave them bombs and money so they could attempt to defend themselves. not so terrorists could use them against us. im not saying that whole fuckin country are terrorists either, but most of them over there would be terrorist. theyre just like most americans they do what seems right at the time. im not trying to say our country is perfect. it isnt even close. my whole point in all i said is that the men over there fighting this so called war on terror are heroes. they are over there protecting you and me. so show them some respect. and this whole thing about being blood thirsty they might act it around here trying to look hard but trust me when they get over there they are not thinking about it the same way. they dont go over there to die or kill. most of them dont want to see action like everyone on here says. even if you were a bloodthirsty monger as you say im sure its not cool having people shooting at you.

[BROWNer]

there's alot of info out there and the
integrity of some of it is subpar at best.
thats why you should
hook up the link.

[Agt. Adopus]

This war is about who is going to get rich. Bush could stopped that second plane but instead he let it hit and kept reading to a 2d grade class. Of course he needed a reason to start a war, and thats what he did. Sold thousands and thousands of peoples lives to join the military, follow the "Uncle Sam" philosiphy and get slaughtered in the name of his greed. Not to mention the large toll of innocents he murdered. So I express true sorrow to all the Afghans who died. But I express true appologies to the americans who died in the name of George W. Bush jr. Sure the Taliban is worse than the US government. But I wouldn't be so outraged with this country if we did not create them in the first place. Look at Bushes father he started a war and look were that war went. We got to build a total of 32000 more Shells and Amocos. GREAT JOB! The US "democracy" is completle farse created by an oppresive government to leave everyone blinded. And what do you know it worked. Everyone who drives there SUV's, watches CNN and thinks they are living in a democratic state are sadly a product of a fascist government.

-My rant as a 13 year old leftest idiot.'''

[Agt. Adopus]

bump for pats politics

[Mr. Mang]

long range bump

<3

[fizm]

hooray for assuming illlegitimate presidency and murdering thousands of innocent foreigners!

i thought we'd only get to kill them by attrition with ignorant foreign policy, but luckily "they" started a war and we can bomb the shit out of villages now and masquerade like we're saving them from some great evil!

we can even point the finger at other countries and call them evil, look at north korea for example. they lovingly refer to our leader as "the warmonger," how cute! they are grateful for our having set back their reunification and peace process ten years.

these people are having a rally to show how much they love dubya:
[img]http://www.korea-np.co.jp/pk/176th_issue/anti-Bush_rally.jpg'>
[img]http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/20/skorea.react/story.skorea.protest.jpg'>
[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1830000/images/_1832009_300bush_devilap.jpg'>
[img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1830000/images/_1832009_300peace_flagap.jpg'>


blah blah blah fuck all this shit. i want to move to canada or the islands or some shit.

[Mr. Mang]

classic BUMP!