Israel

[CACashRefund]

well, i just consulted MY local religious leader and told me both of your religions are false
good try guys




scientology will lead into the 21st century and beyond

the game is ours

[the.crooked]

elron in '08

[MAR]

I already showed you where he's in your book, but your people won't accept him because he's not a Jew and you call me a blind follower.

I already proved to you its talking about Yihoshua aka Joshua. Read up a bit he's pretty famous.

the rabbi's were not given the Torah, Moses was so, "woe to those rabbis who cahnge the books with their own hands"

First off the rabbi's have not changed the torah. Second it is their responciblity to guide the people. Third did muhammed not change the torah? Woe unto him.

he didn't write the quran, it was revealed to him, he memorised it and he recited it. He was illiterate remember? How could he have written the Quran? We accept the torah as it was revealed to Moses (not after the changes, deletions and additions the rabbis made).
Now do you inderstand?

How can you trust one man to tell the truth. I can make up a long story about an angel too and even base it on one of the oldest religions which i happened to study, just like muhammed. If you accept the torah then where is naviim or kituvim? Its part if the tanach also or does that not fit into your skeem.


6 million people heard God? whoah? and they still worshipped the calf? No wonder Allah cursed the Jews.

First off they didnt worship the calf, they made it into a prophet like moshe.
Second not all six million partisipated in the act and those who did died. Read up.

Nanoo-nanoo.....Danger Will Robinson, Danger.
Doesnt Islam mean submission? Sounds robotic to me.

If you want to see the most exalted of character , read about the prophet Muhammad.

This is a trend that really bothers me. Religious leaders being "perfect" even the greastest prophet to ever live, Moshe our teacher, made mistakes.

because every religion can't be right, otherwise they'd all be saying the same thing. Every religion says God is something different.

But they all say there is G-d, right?

I never said that the religions that came before Islam are acceptable (Judaism and christianity) What I did say is that Jesus and Moses were acceptable prophets of God and whoever followed them (in their time) were beleivers. Now, in this time , the only religion that is acceptable to God is Islam because Islam is the last message for all mankind whereas Moses's message was for the children of Isreal only and it has been abrogated by Islam in this time since the coming of Muhammad.

You may have not told me but I heard it elsewhere fancy that, me knowing something...
http://www.wamu.org/audio/dr/06/04/r1060421-10245.asx listen to this program. Proffessor Nsar says that "all the people of the book are required by islam to be protected"

Not to mention Immam Hendi says that the Koran explicitly states that everyone has the right to choose thier own faith. Not that islam is the only way.

I don't think you could rip apart my religion. except with lies your rabbis told you, so go ahead and rip, I'll set you straight and maybe we can all learn something.

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you subtract from it; you must keep the commandments of God your Lord, which I command you" (Deut. 4:2).

btw, Islam says there is no compulsion in religion, so I don't know where you get this Idea that muslims force people to be muslim. It's not true. You can't force someone to beleive.

Regardless of what the Koran says historicly, Muslims have been doing it for years.

And from what I understand about Judaism is that nobody can truly convert to Judaism because you have to be born a jew (at least from your mothers side) so either youre born "a chosen jew" or your not. Sounds like racism to me. Well, I guess the secularist jews allow conversions now for good PR.

Nope. Anyone can convert to Judaism, except for a midyani male, but since we do know who they are anymore we accept all, its just hard because we dont want people who arent commited.

PR...pffft...as if.

[Larry Pubes]

hey mar, obviously you're incredibly biased on this subject, to the point you don't even believe there is an occupation(a very convenient tactic, since nullifying the idea there is an occupation takes the steam out of any opposing viewpoint). now i think you said something about 'facts'...
well if i had a few days to compile an unfuckwithable timeline based on human rights reports, official documents, local media etcetry, that would be great, but i don't, and to be honest i doubt you're the type to be converted..but just for the sake of further discussion: anybody who thinks suicide bombers are justified in their actions are lunatics..agreed? so why is this same logic not applied to israel's actions(you know, apache gunships firing missiles at apartment complexes and other lovely shit)? and i beg you, please try not to argue that it is 'defense'.

[MAR]

anybody who thinks suicide bombers are justified in their actions are lunatics..agreed? so why is this same logic not applied to israel's actions(you know, apache gunships firing missiles at apartment complexes and other lovely shit)? and i beg you, please try not to argue that it is 'defense'.

easy, because they are attacking militants not civillians.

And bring on the argument. For some reason I dont get tired of this...

[Larry Pubes]

i don't expect you to get tired of thinking you're the historical wizard of this subject.
here's a quickie:
the lopsided casualty figures....uhh......can you explain to me how human rights watch flubbed their figures when they reported that since sept 2000 israel has killed nearly 3000 palestinians, of which more than 600 were children? to be fair though, the palestinians in the same period killed nearly 900 israeli's and that "most of those killed on both sides were civilians"..
i guess they are all militants though, huh..?

[Larry Pubes]

another quickie while i have a sec...
this assertion there is no occupation...
israel imposes it's will on practically every aspect of the palestinians life..
for instance, israel maintains effective control over gaza by regulating movement in and out of the strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry...
they also happen to control freedom of movement, sometimes severely, in the west bank and east jerusalem which contributes quite nicely to fun stuff like unemployment, food insecurity, pretty dire poverty and access to basic services like health care and education.
having one of the most powerful militaries in the region controlling the territory...nope, that doesn't mean anything.

[MAR]

well its kinda hard to get accurate figures on palestinian deaths because they are known for inflating them. Can you get all the names of those killed? Because i can.

As you may well know palestinians enlist the help of young children in thier terrorist efforts, so its inevitable that some would be killed. As always, sadly, their are casulaties of war. You ever see tears of the sun or black hawk down? similar to that.

This is all stuff i've covered go back and read what ive written.

[MAR]

another quickie while i have a sec...
this assertion there is no occupation...
israel imposes it's will on practically every aspect of the palestinians life..
for instance, israel maintains effective control over gaza by regulating movement in and out of the strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry...
they also happen to control freedom of movement, sometimes severely, in the west bank and east jerusalem which contributes quite nicely to fun stuff like unemployment, food insecurity, pretty dire poverty and access to basic services like health care and education.
having one of the most powerful militaries in the region controlling the territory...nope, that doesn't mean anything.

they own the land they make the rules. Its a war you cant expect it to be all chill, "yeh do whatever..."

[Larry Pubes]

ah, there we have it folks.
not exactly the factual denial i had hoped for...
but yea, pretty enlightening where you're coming from there mar...
in a nutshell: everything is justified if you think you own the land...even killing children!


wow dude, you can get names?! well since you said you can and you never get tired of this, you do that..get at me with this list of names will ya? and make sure you append the post with your sources. and while you're at it, get at me with some facts about how many 'children' have infiltrated israel and blown people up. and be sure to append that post with sources as well.

[MAR]

what?!? Im in deniel? your the one spewing psudo-intellectual crap at me.

All your doing is trying to debase my arguments by calling me names instead of giving me facts.

And if a child is aiming an rpg at your tank what are you going to do? sit there? please.

In 2005 alone 2990 attacks where launched against israeli targets 337 of those where with kasam rockets.

http://www.onefamilyfund.org/ go to terror attacks and then terrorism today. there should be a list of each attack and person killed.

[Larry Pubes]

this is pathetic. i've popped in here for about a maximum of 30 minutes, threw some stuff out there that was contradictory to your opinion, and now i'm "spewing pseudo-intellectual crap". wow. i called you names huh? where did i do that? all i'm doing is questioning your high ground tootin' ass. your argument isn't very solid my man, whether i come with facts or not.
and dude, if you want to get into fact checking and sources, gimme something that doesn't have 'i ball snuggle israel' all over it.
from your 'source':

"OneFamily provides the family network for world Jewry to express and actuate their natural sense of brotherhood by facilitating direct contact, relationships, and interaction between survivors and world Jewry as individuals, communities, and organizations."

good stuff, but hardly a real source worth anything.

[MAR]

I you want to have a civil and openminded argument I will listen to you. But I will do on one condition: You provide factual evidence to support your claims. I will do the same.

I promise I will be openminded if you will too. Let see if we can get somewhere, both of us.

[Larry Pubes]

i provided you with facts, you just don't like them(want the link?). and i'm all for some discussion dude, but don't give me 'conditions' for such and imply that i'm calling you names when i haven't done anything of the sort. as for facts, i'm down, but it's a 2 way street. and not to sound like a dickhead, but i don't think i need them, as your posts are really enlightening to your overall attitude and opinions on the issue. your firm assertion there is 'no occupation' is really something else man...justified or not, there is no doubt an ongoing occupation.

[Larry Pubes]

so now we've got that cleared up, i'd like you to address post 256 that was in response to your asserting that israel only attacks civilians. also please address post 257 where i provided an extremely basic fact in response to your claim 'there is no occupation'.

[Larry Pubes]

*since i can't edit my post for some reason, above it should say "only attacks militants", not civilians. my bad.

[The Man with the Answers]

I think mar and dawood are the same person who is having a socratic conversation with two sides of the same coin...

[The Man with the Answers]

the main issue really is two groups of foreigners (or three) trying to control the land: Arab muslims, and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs)

first you said "Arab muslims" I assumed you were talking about the palestinain Arabs

then you said..

"palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^"

I know many palestianian muslims and they are all Arab, trust me.


palastinians refers to any body who lives in palastine, whether they be jews, muslims or christians... its a geographic designation...this is not a islam vs. jewish issue... current reaserach is showing taht all palstinian people are ethnically the same people, some just have diffrent religions...

It is an Islam vs. jewish issue. It just depends on who you are. Some people are very religious, some people are fanatically religious and some people are secular. It depends on who you are if youre trying to gauge what the issue is. To a palestinain christian, no it's not an Islamic vs. Jewish issue, it's a land issue, but to a devout muslim or Jew it is an issue of Holy land also, not just an issue of the jews bulldozing palestinians houses or a palestinian walking onto a bus with a bomb vest. It's almost like a Gang war at this point, It's been war for so long there, people just grow up fighting from childhood. Allahu Akbar...May Allah guide the Jews. It's a trip to see the Jews at the wailing wall, and theyre so close to the 3rd most holiest mosque in the world where prayers are multiplied in rewards. If only they would let go of the traditions of the rabbis and follow the Torah. They would realize that Muhammad is the last and final prophet of Allah and accept him.



I look at this whole thing anthropologically... but in terms of saying palastinians muslims are arabs.....I have to say I respectfully disagree... a main tenet of islam I understand is to take up "arab culture", much as you changed your name to dawwood and grew the beard and wear the clothes etc etc... same thing with these "arab" palastinians...they claim that for muslim solidarity.. I would bet you those so-called arabs that you know are ethnically and genetically of the palastine area...

[MAR]

I've been talking with a good friend of mine and he made a good point.

Our oppinions obviously differ. I would venture to say that you are as guilty as I of being unwavering in your oppinion. Therefore I dont think that anything good can come of our conversation no matter how civilized.

I guess I'm done with this thread if anyone has any questions to my oppinion they can go a few pages back.

If you care to read more on the situation two books i recogmend are alan dershowitzs- the case for israel and myths and facts: a guide to the arab israel conflict by mitchell bard.

[Dawood]

Actually, if you ask a religious muslim arab, being an arab has nothing to do with nationality. You are considered an Arab if you are proficient in the arabic language.

[Larry Pubes]

I've been talking with a good friend of mine and he made a good point.

Our oppinions obviously differ. I would venture to say that you are as guilty as I of being unwavering in your oppinion. Therefore I dont think that anything good can come of our conversation no matter how civilized.

I guess I'm done with this thread if anyone has any questions to my oppinion they can go a few pages back.

If you care to read more on the situation two books i recogmend are alan dershowitzs- the case for israel and myths and facts: a guide to the arab israel conflict by mitchell bard.


holy shit, wtf mar...your credibility is going down the shitter pretty fast here. i'm willing and ready to debate the points i brought up to you, in a civilized manner, as i have done so far. so far you've said that i called you names(bullshit), called my facts 'pseudo-intellectual crap'(huh?), tried to give me conditions that i had already met, and told me you'd be 'open-minded' to discussion(so far...bullshit). you keep asking me for facts and i took some time out to grab some real basic ones. now as i ask you to refute them, you're backing out after flippantly saying this: "And bring on the argument. For some reason I dont get tired of this...". since you're so incredibly biased and arrogant on this issue (and being a main contributor of late), i'm merely giving this thread some symmetry to your propaganda. get at me with what i asked you or step off this thread.

[Smart]

I guess I'm done with this thread if anyone has any questions to my oppinion they can go a few pages back.
....

[Larry Pubes]

fuck that, respond to my specific points.

[MAR]

check your pm's. Im done with this thread and try not to take things out of context.

[Dawood]

Mar, I know where youre coming from , man. Sometimes I come here and see a 4 paragraph 200 word essay that someone typed out responding to me and I'm like...I got no time for this right now. I enjoy a progressive debate, but sometimes it gets a little out of hand. (not that I think it did here) But someone criticised me of only responding to what I wanted to respond to and i'm like.... "yeah!?" You can't look out the window everytime you hear a dog barking outside. Our opinions often differ. It's ok, not everyone is going to agree. It's just like that.
To be honest , 12oz. is such a big waste of time. I hate coming here, but it's so entertaining.

[Larry Pubes]

without taking anything out of context, every thing you said in your pm, mar, can be applied to your views on the palestinians, and that's the central problem with your argument. try and apply the same morality you expect palestinians to observe towards israelis and we can start having a real discussion(at which point i'll happily provide facts on the bullshit that emanates from the occupied territories as well). i apologise for coming off strong, but demanding specific facts from me and then bullshitting your way out of dealing with them is frustrating and contrary to your own demands for others to provide facts, and your own wishes to discuss the issue with some open-mindedness.

[Larry Pubes]

Our opinions often differ. It's ok, not everyone is going to agree. It's just like that.

i'm hearing you on fm. however, we should be careful to make a distinction between opinions and facts when we're talking about live situations where thousands of people are being killed, no?

[Larry Pubes]

I answered you questions and you ignored them and asked a new question...and then attacked my credibilty by saying my argument was weak without even addressing my points. How is that a debate?

If you want to argue:
Leave the criticing out, People can make thier own desisions.
Address my points, this is a debate not a questionaire.
Use proper grammer, its really hard for me to read a post when there is only one long paragraph.
These are my rules. If you agree I will consider continuing our conversation.

~MAR


i'm sorry, but pm's aren't pm's anymore.
this is the most frustratingly ridiculous 'debate' i've had on 12oz in the 6years i've been coming here. show me where you answered my points with any factual basis behind it. i provided you with facts and i'll give you the sources. you've provided me with one sentence opinion rebuttals. you gave me 1 source, which i pointed out is just as biased as you are, and you have yet to get me anything remotely resembling an objective, sourced fact. and what the hell is with these rules? as is clearly posted above, i addressed your points already with sourced facts, now provide some factual counter argument to the facts you asked me to provide you, or your assertion there is no occupation, or that the IDF kills militants only has zero credibility. i mean you could at least have the courtesy to respond in kind...and i'd think for someone who comes off as very educated on the issue, one would think you'd have little trouble crushing my argument, no? btw, my grammar is good enough, and my paragraphs are perfectly legible.

[Smart]

Armed Hamas and Fatah groups have clashed over the past week in Gaza. As Mr. Rajab and the wounded were driven to the Gaza hospital, agents fired from the windows to clear the streets, and some members of the new Hamas militia fired toward the convoy, apparently believing themselves under attack.


I thought the idiocy inherent in 'communicating with gunfire' was apparent to all but...

[MAR]

i'm sorry, but pm's aren't pm's anymore.
this is the most frustratingly ridiculous 'debate' i've had on 12oz in the 6years i've been coming here. show me where you answered my points with any factual basis behind it. i provided you with facts and i'll give you the sources. you've provided me with one sentence opinion rebuttals. you gave me 1 source, which i pointed out is just as biased as you are, and you have yet to get me anything remotely resembling an objective, sourced fact. and what the hell is with these rules? as is clearly posted above, i addressed your points already with sourced facts, now provide some factual counter argument to the facts you asked me to provide you, or your assertion there is no occupation, or that the IDF kills militants only has zero credibility. i mean you could at least have the courtesy to respond in kind...and i'd think for someone who comes off as very educated on the issue, one would think you'd have little trouble crushing my argument, no? btw, my grammar is good enough, and my paragraphs are perfectly legible.

Fuck you. I write you a pm because i dont want it to be public. PM-Private Message.

Anyhow Im done with this thread im not going to let you sucker me into an arguement. I dont feel the need to justify my oppinions any longer and frankly dont want to. Im not scared of you, I just dont see a point. and no you have not adressed a single point other than to say it was weak. but it doesnt matter anymore.

Have a nice life, call yourself a winner if it makes you feel better, this is my last post in this thread.

MAR/Leaving well enough alone.

[Larry Pubes]

all i asked you to do was to 'justify' your 'opinions' with facts of your own, as you insisted of me. pretty simple i thought, but apparently you're above facts and would rather mumble up a straight forward request for you to back your opinions up like you expect everyone else to do. fuck me indeed.

[Larry Pubes]

and no you have not adressed a single point other than to say it was weak. but it doesnt matter anymore.

alright, i swear i'll leave you alone after i highlight your bullshit one last time, since i'm not letting it stand that i did not address 'a single point'.
from the start..

pubes: if the average american can't get to israel or palestine to make a judgement, then the avg. american should look at the extensive, official record and come to a clear understanding of how the avg. american's tax dollars continue being spent supporting a violent, brutal occupation.

your reply: MAR: Know this: There is no occupation.

pubes: there's no occupation....right..and i'm connie chung..

your reply: MAR: If you think there is an "occupation" then prove it with facts.


pubes: ...anybody who thinks suicide bombers are justified in their actions are lunatics..agreed? so why is this same logic not applied to israel's actions(you know, apache gunships firing missiles at apartment complexes and other lovely shit)? and i beg you, please try not to argue that it is 'defense'.

your reply: MAR:
easy, because they are attacking militants not civillians.

And bring on the argument. For some reason I dont get tired of this...

now this is where i start addressing you point by point..

pubes: the lopsided casualty figures....uhh......can you explain to me how human rights watch flubbed their figures when they reported that since sept 2000 israel has killed nearly 3000 palestinians, of which more than 600 were children? to be fair though, the palestinians in the same period killed nearly 900 israeli's and that "most of those killed on both sides were civilians"..
i guess they are all militants though, huh..?
here is the exact quote from a 2005 overview report of israel and OPT by human rights watch, 5th paragraph down (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm): "Since the beginning of the current intifada in September 2000, Israel has killed nearly three thousand Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, including more than six hundred children. During the same period, Palestinian fighters have killed more than nine hundred Israelis inside Israel and in the OPT. Most of those killed on both sides were civilians."
to corroborate these numbers, here are some numbers from an israeli human rights group, published by the bbc which reflects the same numbers human rights watch published: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4294502.stm

your reply to me addressing this factually?:
MAR: well its kinda hard to get accurate figures on palestinian deaths because they are known for inflating them. Can you get all the names of those killed? Because i can.
As you may well know palestinians enlist the help of young children in thier terrorist efforts, so its inevitable that some would be killed. As always, sadly, their are casulaties of war. You ever see tears of the sun or black hawk down? similar to that.

so i asked you for your facts on these numbers and you gave me a totally biased, pro-israel brotherhood site.
MAR: In 2005 alone 2990 attacks where launched against israeli targets 337 of those where with kasam rockets.
http://www.onefamilyfund.org/ go to terror attacks and then terrorism today. there should be a list of each attack and person killed.

FACTS PLEASE.

now onto where i addressed the 'no occcupation' comments you made:
pubes: this assertion there is no occupation...
israel imposes it's will on practically every aspect of the palestinians life..
for instance, israel maintains effective control over gaza by regulating movement in and out of the strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry...
they also happen to control freedom of movement, sometimes severely, in the west bank and east jerusalem which contributes quite nicely to fun stuff like unemployment, food insecurity, pretty dire poverty and access to basic services like health care and education.

your flippant ass reply: MAR: they own the land they make the rules. Its a war you cant expect it to be all chill, "yeh do whatever..."

go back to the human rights watch report i provided a link to above, and go to the sixth paragraph where i gleaned the above factual evidence against your 'opinion' there is 'no occupation'.
i'm still waiting for a coherent, logical and factual response to this.
as for the 'applicability of the term "occupied"'(from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#Applicability_of_the_term_.22 occupied.22): "The United Nations Security Council (in Resolution 446, Resolution 465 and Resolution 484, among others), the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention[4], and the International Committee of the Red Cross[5], have each resolved that the territories discussed in this article are occupied and that the Fourth Geneva Convention provisions regarding occupied territories apply. In its decision on the separation barrier, the International Court of Justice ruled that the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem are occupied.[6]"

now, tell me again how i didn't 'address a single point'.

[Dawood]

i'm hearing you on fm. however, we should be careful to make a distinction between opinions and facts when we're talking about live situations where thousands of people are being killed, no?


No doubt, but some people arent willing to have an open minded conversation and they aren't looking for a solution to the problem. To some people there isn't any problems and everything is coochie crunch with a simple explanation so that's where I stand on this issue. it can't be fixed here, that's for sure.

[Larry Pubes]

No doubt, but some people arent willing to have an open minded conversation and they aren't looking for a solution to the problem.

well then posting in a political discussion forum wouldn't make much sense would it?

[2342]

Muslims and Jews: Common Ground
By Robert Eisen

Tuesday, May 9, 2006; Page A23

It's been often noted that a key reason for the intractability of the conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East is that both sides operate with a mutually exclusive set of assumptions about the history of the dispute.

Jews view the state of Israel as the triumph of a dispossessed people who waited 2,000 years for a return to their homeland. If violence has accompanied that return, it is solely because of Arab intransigence; Jews were willing to settle peacefully among their Arab neighbors, but the latter were hostile to a sovereign Jewish entity in the Middle East and declared war against it from its inception.



Muslims view the state of Israel as the most egregious example of Western colonialism and imperialism, a foreign body inserted into the Middle East for the purpose of furthering Western domination. Any violence is solely the fault of the Jews and their Western allies. The Jews were able to take possession of the land by violently displacing its inhabitants, and they have succeeded in holding on to it with the help of Western military support.

What has been lost is the fact that both Jews and Muslims have a great deal in common in the way they perceive their respective histories. Each community has an understanding of its history that is much broader than that defined by this conflict, and we gain much insight into the nature of the dispute by comprehending those larger frameworks.

First the Jewish side. To understand modern Jews and their attachment to Israel, one has to remember that the Jewish people have been around for 3,000 years and that for the majority of that time they have been ruled by foreign powers that have often persecuted them. In biblical times Jews were dominated by a series of empires, and their kingdom was destroyed twice. In the Middle Ages they lived in Christian lands and were frequently subjected to violence.

In Muslim countries, Jews were treated much better -- as a protected minority. But they were never equal to Muslims, and medieval Jewish literature often expresses feelings of humiliation because of Jews' lack of power in Muslim lands. And even there, Jews sometimes experienced violence.

The ultimate violence, of course, came in 20th-century Europe with the Holocaust. Jews created the state of Israel in the belief that they would finally be able to live in security and dignity. It is a project that has succeeded only in part. Certainly, Jews now have sovereignty in their ancient homeland, as well as a powerful army. But Israel is surrounded by tens of millions of Muslims, many of whom oppose its existence. One must keep in mind that there are only 14 million Jews in the world, and almost half of them live in Israel.

One might argue, then, that the creation of Israel has actually made the Jews less secure. The fear now is not just violence but annihilation. Much of this helps explain why Israelis deal so harshly with their Palestinian adversaries. Jews are sensitive to every provocation that threatens Israel because of their history of vulnerability. They will perceive Palestinians as a threat as long as they commit acts of violence against Israelis and refuse to recognize Israel's legitimacy -- even if Palestinians don't have an army. Every Palestinian teenager lifting a stone to throw at an Israeli soldier will be viewed by Jews, in light of their bloody history, as a threat. I should emphasize that what matters here is Jewish perceptions of reality, not necessarily the reality itself, because it is perceptions that cause people to act regardless of what the reality is.

Turning to the Muslim side, we see a strikingly similar pattern. Muslim identity in the modern period has also been shaped by the bitter experience of foreign domination and humiliation. For the past 200 years, the Muslim world has been victimized by Western colonialism and imperialism. Many Muslim countries eventually have won their independence, but the power of oil has kept the West deeply involved in the Middle East. The advent of the state of Israel has been understood by the Muslim world as a symptom of the continuing Western attempt to dominate it.

Just as with the Jews, Muslims have turned to violence because they see it as the only way to defend themselves. In the absence of military power, some Muslims have resorted to terrorism as the only avenue to independence. Here, too, perceptions have made it difficult to differentiate between different types of threats. American peacemakers who travel to Iraq are being killed alongside American soldiers. Again, it is the perceptions that count, not necessarily the reality.

Getting each side to acknowledge the perceptions of the other, let alone sympathize with them, is no easy task. Some Muslims I have spoken to balk at the notion that Jews or Israelis feel vulnerable and argue that any suggestion to this effect is manipulative and designed to evoke sympathy: After all, Israel has a powerful army and Jews are highly influential everywhere in the world. Some of my Jewish friends are equally discomfited by my analysis. They object to any equation of Jewish suffering with Muslim suffering, because the Muslim world has never experienced the kind of persecution the Jews have.

What both sides miss here is the critical point that, again, what count are perceptions. Each side genuinely feels its vulnerability and humiliation and sees the other side as more powerful, and that is all that matters. After all, it is those perceptions that motivate each side to kill. Yet there may be hope for dialogue on the basis of these perceptions. I have shared the arguments outlined here between Jews and Muslims, and some have been intrigued by the parallel between their histories -- particularly Shiite Muslims, whose sense of humiliation at the hands of West has been compounded by the humiliation they have experienced from the Sunni Muslim majority throughout their history. In this regard they share a great deal with Jews.

Another point: The ones who respond most positively to my thinking are Muslim clerics. In my experience with interreligious dialogue in the past few years, it has become clear to me that clergy are far better than the politicians at baring their souls and sharing their emotions when talking with their enemies. They are therefore more likely to discuss the fears and insecurities motivating their respective communities to violence.

What this suggests to me is that it's time the clergy be given a more central role in the peace process between Jews and Muslims. For decades politicians on both sides have argued over where to draw borders but have brought us no closer to peace.

The clergy have been excluded from such negotiations because of the perception that religion is the problem, not the solution. Yet so much of the conflict between Jews and Muslims has been tied to religion that it's hard to imagine a settlement without the clerics. Perhaps with their help, Jews and Muslims can address the real issues between them so that a new relationship can emerge.

The writer is a professor of religion and Jewish studies at GeorgeWashingtonUniversity and for the past several years has been extensively involved in interreligious dialogue between Muslims and Jews.

Thoughts?

[Dawood]

In my humble opinion. The only reason there is no peace in that region is because the Jews have wrongfully seized the land of the muslims and the Islamic laws are not being established. If the muslims were over the Jews with regards to leadership (the way it should be) There would be much more safety and security in those lands for both Jews, christians and Muslims. There will never be peace when until balance is restored and the Jews are either forced out of the muslims property and they live peacefully under an Islamic shariah.
It may sound harsh to non-muslims or one sided, but I'm just saying. I'm not palestinian, I don't know much about that region, but I do know muslims, and I know for a fact that Muslims will not back down. There can be peace treaties with the Jews, no doubt, but eventually, the Muslims there will gather their stregnth and force the Jews out. Then , the peace treaties can be upheld, truthfully. In the Quran, Allah says

‘‘Fight against those who do not believe in Allaah and the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge Islaam, the religion of truth, from amongst the People of the Book (i.e. the Jews and Christians), until they pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.’’

then he says

‘‘But if they incline to peace, then you also incline to it, and put your trust in Allaah. Indeed He is the all-Hearer, the all-Knower.’’

and he also says the meaning of.

Do not let your hatred of a people sway you to injustice against them.

So, just because there is emnity and hatred between the jews and muslims does not mean that there can't be peace between the two groups. There can be peace , but again in my humble opinion there can't be justice or peace until the Jews are subdued and Islam is used as the criteria we judge by.

[villain]

That's a good article. I think it is important that the issues be put into context, rather than this endless cycle of violence. Both Jews and Muslims have very real fears, and it's true that perception colors our reality. It's also a good point about having religious leaders guiding the dialog. Religious leaders are less likely to have ulterior motives than politicians who may resort to demagoguery to retain their position. If the religious leadership can change popular sentiment among their people that would give politicians some ground to stand on as far as implementing a feasible peace process.

As long as people are ruled by fear, and act on those fears (whether or not they are real, they are made real by the psychic energy invested into those complexes) there can be no sustainable peace. Excellent article.... seeking real solutions. So many people have opinions trying to justify one side or another (not only on here but in the media as well) but that fails what is really needed, and that's common ground. Compromise, empathy, understanding, brotherhood.

[villain]

Dawood, I don't think it's right to have to live under anyone elses rules regardless of what the Koran says (no disrespect). Using the same type of logic Christians engaged in the crusades, the inquisition, colonization, slavery and genocide.... all in the name of the lord. The truth is that there are many truths. Noone has a monopoly on truth. This would most likely lead to "my god can beat up your god" type arguments. Religion is very idiosyncratic. People have different beliefs because we are different. What we need is less fundamentalism, literalism, factionalism and all these other ism schisms and instead an embracing of underlying, universal, human principles, which we do indeed share.

[Dawood]

you live under someone else's rules right now and so do I.

Go to the constitution and tell me it had nothing to do with christianity or the bible. I don't have much time tonight, but, I'm sure we'll continue.

[Qawee]

i dont agree with the constitution either.
What about the christian palestinians?
Sharia is backwards, middle ages my dude.
The solution is a democratic and secular palestine, with working class Jews and working class Palestinians in control of the government.
The PLO, Hamas, and the Israeli government do not have the interests of the working class Jews or Palestinians at heart.

[coffeedependency]

Palestinian Leader Plans a Vote on Accepting Israel
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Palestinians-Hamas-Talks.html?hp&ex=1148616000&en=074061a1389690c5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Larry Pubes]

forget israel, we should be worried about fatah and hamas sparking a civil war.

[CACashRefund]

fuck that, let them off eachother

[2342]

It has become as routine for terrorists to rationalize their insanity on the basis of "Islamic fundamentalism," as it once was for aspiring dictators to blame their violent ambitions on Karl Marx. Some Americans may even believe this religious excuse for random violence, which causes understandable anxiety among the nation's many Islamic friends at home and abroad (such as Turkey and Jordan).

Terrorists who cite Islam as an excuse for terrorist acts against Jews and Christians are not fundamentalists but heretics. To see why, read the Holy Qur'an. Consider the following passages, which are followed by parenthetical references to the Shakir translation:

First of all, the Qur'an demands respect of all monotheistic religions: "Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah [God] and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (II:62).

The Qur'an likewise speaks favorably of the "churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered."(XXII:40)

Second, all prophets are to be respected -- including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed:

"We do not make any distinction between them." (II:136) "We [Muslims] make no difference between any of His apostles." (II:285) "Every one was of the good." (VI:85) "The Messiah, son of Mary is but an apostle" (V:73), yet God "put in the hearts of those who follow him kindness and mercy." (LVII:27) The Torah "in which there was guidance and light" is considered part "of the Book of Allah" (V:70), and so are the Bible and Koran (IX: 111).

At times, the Qur'an even counsels religious tolerance: "There is no compulsion in religion." (II:256) "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (CIX: 6) "Be not unduly immoderate in your religion." (V:73)

The Qur'an never excuses a Holy War or Jihad against fellow monotheists -- Christians or Jews -- but only against those who worship idols (idolaters) or many gods (polytheists).

Even in the case of idolaters, the Koran honors peace agreements. "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them except those of the idolaters with which you have made an agreement." (IX:4-5)

"If they break their oaths after their agreement and [openly] revile your religion, then fight." (IX:12).

"Fight with them until there is no persecution [of Islam] but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."(II:193) "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah." (VIII:61)

Such language is not of the meek "turn the other cheek" variety, but neither does it imply that sneak attacks are holy, that war is preferable to peace, or that Christians or Jews are religious enemies.

When we speak of "fundamentalist" Christians and "orthodox" Jews, we mean those who follow quite strictly the teachings of the New Testament or Torah. If "Islamic fundamentalist" likewise means strict adherence to the Qur'an, then the phrase cannot be properly applied to those who attempt to terrorize Christians and Jews.

The Qur'an demands respect of all monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), and does not condone war against any of them, much less cowardly acts of terrorism.

Dictators and aspiring dictators are angry with the United States for limiting their lust for power and land. They may try to cloak their ambitions and their brutality in religious garb, but they are lying. Religion cannot justify atrocities against the United States any more than it justifies thuggery in Northern Ireland.

Murder is murder. There is nothing religious about it.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-18-01.html

[fermentor666]

It's true and I wholeheartedly agree, but the US of A is doing a whole lotta killing of innocents in the name of God, too. "God will show us the way, God bless our troops, With God by our sides, etc".

[Dawood]

Sharia is backwards, middle ages my dude.
.


you may think shariah is backwards because youve only looked at it through the goggles of the western media. People think that the taliban was an example of shariah, but it wasn't.

[Smart]

you live under someone else's rules right now and so do I.

Well... I'm not gonna live under your 5 rules.

[Dawood]

Well... I'm not gonna live under your 5 rules.


only 5 rules? that's it?

[2342]

Dawood- could you please define shari‘a law?

[Dawood]

The Shari'ah is the Islaamic Law, in particular, what is stated in the texts of the Qur.aan and Sunnah (legal ways and traditions of the prophet Muhammad).

[2342]

Dawood, I understand the basic definition of Shari'ah law- I was hoping though you would go into a bit of detail regarding the specific laws you live by.

I have lived in many places where Shari'ah law is enforced but it seems to differentiate a lot depending on the country- and the education given to locals regarding which of the Madrassas they have been educated at- or even which local Imam they follow. It seems too to be based a lot on how the Qur'an is translated and also who is doing the translating.

I have seen the Shari'ah differentiate from when I was living in Iran which is predominately obviously Shi’a and then again when I was living in Iraq it changed to Sunni- then when I was living in Saudi Arabia there was also a huge difference. Traveling through all countries ending in STAN I faced an entirely different set of rules. Northern Africa- again- yet another set of different rules. A lot of rules one must follow and keep up with to play the chess game correctly. Chechnya by far had to be one of the most dangerous places to stumble and not obey the rules.

Having lived in so many countries- yet always respecting their religious traditions- I have stumbled a few times and spent some time in some really dilapidated prisons- that I am sure the crew of “Trading Places” would have had much fun with. For some valid reasons too- purposely losing my minder. (A minder is someone who is assigned to watch over another person, usually to observe their actions and keep them in line. This typically happens to visitors in totalitarian countries.)

If you should happen to loose your minder and wind up filming, phtographing or speaking to people freely – that you should not be- and get caught- usually you can typically buy your way out- but again- it depends on where you are. Normally the Minder and the local police will be sitting in your hotel room waiting for you upon your return- and always with happy faces, and handcuffs. And too yet again- sometimes you can buy your way out of this situation- but it all seems to depend on how many people are involved in knowing about your escape out of the bounds of your minder- the more people that are involved (i.e. Saudi Arabia for intence has groups of Islamic Police that really inforce the law) it is less likely you will be able to buy your way out- and you may find yourself in prison for a while.

These are obviously my experiences and I do not mean to demean the importance or role of Shar’iah in any country with which I lived or spent time in. I am simply curious about the laws you persoanly live by. Why is Shari’iah imporatnt to you?

[Dawood]

well, firstly, I live in America. I live according to the laws here. When I mention Shariah, I'm talking about the pure Islamic law which is too comprehensive for us to go over right here, right now.
I understand that countries that Identify themselves as muslim countries these days can definately be corrupt and the laws will change from place to place, but that is also because Islam has become sectarian and the laws will change according to the understanding of the people. Of course , this is wrong, but people are people and we can only hope for the best.

The Shariah is important to me because it is the law that the creator has revealed and sent to man to work in conjunction with beleif in Allah (God) and in the last day.
If a person had no religion or fear of God, then there would need to be some sort of laws to protect themselves and others from their mischief. Here in America the laws are secular becuase in truth, even though most people in America (or a lot of them) call themselves Christian, they are really secular, so they govern themselves according to what suits their desires.
Muslims recognise God as being the only one whol has the right to legislate and govern the people since he is the one who created them. Let me ask you though, you said you were in Saudi Arabia and in my opinion from what I've seen in todays world, Saudi Arabia is closer to the pure shariah than others. Tell me about your experiences in Saudi Arabia. Good, Bad, whatever. Don't compare it to America, just out of curiousity I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the set up there.

[2342]

I am just going to write -not typically through my eyes as a journalist but instead- a very honest and bias account of what life was like living in Saudi.

Saudi through my eyes during the three years I lived there was rich in tradition, culture, strong in ethic, morals, beauty, and especially mystery.

I purposely chose not to live in one of the too, too many American- European built compounds that are built throughout Saudi - so the American- Europeans never have to feel as if they’ve actually left the comforts of their soul-numbing, seizure-inducing, hope-curdling Wal-Marts.

Once I got settled and became “a local fixture” – the locals began to except me.

I always found it astonishingly exciting that one moment you could be sitting down with a Saudi family having the an intense discussion regarding politics, prayer .i.e. religion, education and what they feel is important to be taught in their society to their kids- their school systems- etc. then in the next moment the husbands cell phone rings- and the for the next 20 minutes he is bartering with his stock advisor over the price of rice in China and how much he should or should not invest- sell or not sell.

Obviously this is one experience- with one family- there are too many to go into- but in and overview:

You suddenly realize this place called Saudi Arabia is on the one hand is immensely fragile in history but at the same time- so far ahead of itself when it comes to technology and business it’s rather scary.

Praying with my close friends and those who became family over time was always a beautiful experience, watching their kids celebrate Ramadan for their first time was beautiful. Being able to share in what they considered important was something I will never exploit or take for granted.

The 30 to 40 year old Saudi’s I encountered seem to have found their happy place when it came to splicing in and dividing their deep beliefs, religion their highly educated lives and deep religious tradition. They seem to have found the right groove between their daily “religious struggle” (which I believe is actually a more accurate description of the word Jihad) and the price of having to work in a corporate world and spending a lot of time away from home. After about 3 months of witnessing this struggle it was normal- and at the same time not normal.

Ridding the evening train home- sitting next to people who are completely wired in- Lap top- cell phone- PDA, all Bluetoothed in-to every type of technology you could name- everyone ridding the trains was wired for sound. But- as I was ridding the “tech train” home- I would stop for a moment and zone out all the rings, the beeps and the business chatter around me for a moment to watch was happening out side the train- and there I saw normality in what you might expect to see in Saudi- on your first trip- humans, just trying to survive. Men in their late 40 to 60’s herding animals near the river. No cell phones- no lap top, no Bluetooth. When will these two pictures meet- if ever? And what will happen when they do meet?

I also had a chance to visit some traditional Madrasas – which on the one hand I can understand and appreciate, and then there is another side of me that has a lot of questions. I found that the wealthier Saudi kids went to private schools, and the servants who work for those wealthier Saudi families that are imported in from the Philippines, India and Thailand- those are the kids you would normally find attending a traditional Madrasa. And too, I found the teachings a bit bias, only open to the belief that all Jews and Christians are the anti-Christ and they would openly talk about such things by saying to me that they truly believed the saying “Kill all kaffers.” Kaffers= non-believers.

Now don’t get me wrong- as long as one never has to leave his or her dessert island and you are living amongst like minded people- this is all well and good- but after speaking to the parents of the kids who were being taught at these Madrasas- they too had their concerns. For one- they were working their ass off so their kids could have a better life than waiting on wealthy people daily- but what is going to happen if that “better” day comes and they find themselves living in Amsterdam for instance- completely surrounded by Kaffers?

Why not teach philosophy, French, Math, Science, chemistry – I found the teaching at the Madrasas- frankly – depressing. For the obvious reasons. I believe there can be a balance between religion and book smarts.

I found women both wealthy and not wealthy extremely frustrated with their role in society. They wanted their voice- their opinion to heard more in their kingdom. I found many women who knew their husbands cheated on them with their servants and could not have cared less, because as these women told me -they also knew what kinds of things their husbands did with these women- and those things were for whores- not for wives.

I also found women who could not be happier with their life, their role and their religion.

There is a cast system, and it is stronger and even more overwhelmingly obvious than I had ever imagined.

I found hypocrisy as well, outside Hajj and I mean right outside Hajj- you could find alcohol, playboy magazines, and even prostitutes.

I guess on my first trip to Saudi after my post graduate schooling in Germany I had expectations- that it would be a place stainless grandeur steeped in mystery- and you know what? It was- but it was also human. Human in the sense that no place on earth is perfect- there are wrinkles in every society and when you try and portray yourself, your country, your people- as such- that is when you will stumble- and stumble far.

This is all I will write for now- unless anyone has any other specific questions- I will answer anything you ask. I don’t want to bore anyone by rambling.

[kazhoes]

Hezbollah for life HASSAN NASSRALLAH IS READY FORA SECOND ROUND MOTHERFUCKER

[Dawood]

2342, I just read your story again and found it to be very interesting. I enjoy your posts, mashaAllah. I was just in saudi arabia a few moths ago. From the standpoint of a muslim. Saudi arabia, although not perfect and very human is the best place on earth. it has 2 of Islam's holiest sites there and the peace security you feel (especially in Medina) are unmatched.
I honestly would stay there for the rest of my days if I had the chance to. i loved it there.
To a non muslim who is seeking the life of this world i suppose it would seem sort of boring. There is certainly a cast system and racism that divides people. Saudis have money and not many others do. Just like anywhere else, there's problems and the human condition exists.
I particularly loved that the culture there was based around Islam and people in general were a lot more religious than anywhere else I've ever been.

When I say "religious" I don't mean in a stuffy "be quiet in church" kind of way. I mean in a striving to be a decent human being doing good deeds and humble servent of God kind of way. Upright and honest, neither oppressing people nor annoying them. Optimistic and generous, sincere and consistent. A lot of us anre simply not taught how to implement these qualities and Islam encourages all of this and more especially when practiced within a society. I liked that about Saudi arabia. Yes, there are downsides, many, but overall, Id live and die there if I had the chance to.