Israel

[Ski Mask]

time to start this discussion up again. I'm struck recently by how calous israel is...in public statements even. Usually when a state does somthing horrible they try to sugar coat things...not with israel it seems.
Horrible things are happening, but when a palestinian suicide bomber strikes at civilians, its the act of a dedicated member of a terrorist organization. When israeli troops open fire on an ambulance killing the doctor and EMS guy, or launch rockets into densely populated civilian areas, it is the act of a state. There is no arguing that, and I think its a million times worse than when a lone person is responsible. Every citizen who voted for sharon should have this on their concience!

I saw images of palestinians males being rounded up in camps today and strip searched (some reports are saying the detainees had numbers painted on them while being processed). Houses being ramsacked by israeli troops searching for weapons, or any people in hiding. Anyone see where I'm going with this? How does this not creep the fuck outta the average israeli citizen?

I'm curious to hear more about the burgeoning peace movement going on. I think despite what we see every day on the news, most of the people living through it have started to see the futility in this cycle of violence. Perhaps we will see a very public challenge of the ultra-orthodox voting block that steers so much of israeli politics...

[Ski Mask]

)BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AP) - Palestinian officials charged today that Israel was purposely targeting health workers, after five Palestinian medics were killed by Israeli troops shooting at rescue vehicles.

Israel countered that ambulances are frequently being used to ferry weapons and gunmen.

On Friday, a male nurse and a hospital administrator were killed by Israeli troops. The administrator, who runs a small hospital in Bethlehem, was driving toward Bethlehem to pick up staff and medical supplies and had coordinated the trip with the Israeli army, but was nevertheless shot by an army machine-gunner, Palestinian officials said.

The male nurse was killed when Israeli naval patrol boats opened fire on a police base north of Gaza City.

Earlier this week, the director of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the West Bank city of Jenin as well as an ambulance driver and a U.N. nurse in the nearby town of Tulkarem were killed by Israeli troops.

The Israelis are trying to intimidate the ambulance crews so that they will not be able to reach the wounded, said Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, head of the Palestinian Medical Relief, a non-governmental organization.

"They want them to bleed to death, to push up the fatalities as high as they can," Barghouti said.

Israeli generals and officials said repeated use of ambulances by the Palestinians to carry gunmen and ammunition has forced the army to stop all ambulances for checking. "The other side is using ambulances to attack our soldiers," said Brig. Gen. Gershon Yitzhak, commander of Israeli forces in the West Bank.

Some of the ambulances defy orders to stop, said Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner. "If an ambulance tries to break through a road block, it is reasonable for the soldiers to assume that it is not being used for its humanitarian purpose, so they have no choice but to open fire," Pazner said.

The Palestinians deny having used ambulances for carrying gunmen or ammunition. "It's a lie," Barghouti said. "Have they ever proven it?''

In the past 17 months of fighting there have been over 170 Israeli shooting attacks on Palestinian ambulances, Barghouti said, and 15 doctors and other ambulance crew members have been killed.

However Palestinian gunmen have also fired on Israeli army medics and civilian ambulance crews who were trying to rescue wounded soldiers and civilians, and several of the medical staff have been killed

[Pistol]

What Israel and many other feel is that indeed it is not the act of a single madman that goes into a pizzeria or shopping center and detonates himself. Arafat is is a member of some of these organizations. Some argue that these organizations are not terrorist's and that only a few hardcore members in that organization are in fact terrorists. But since I don't live out there it's pretty hard for me or you to fully understand what is going on out there other than the situation being FUCKED for all parties involved. Try imagining people on Montreal going over to Toronto or some other Canadien city and exploding inside a shopping mall where your mom and dad work or buy groceries, because they want independence from Canada. Imagine this happening for a year and a half.

[Dr. Dazzle]

This stuff is happening way to much. It's on the news all the time. Do they have drugs in Israearl? That would calm them down.,....

[Ski Mask]

Thats exactly what I find so depressing about this situation. How can this possibly be resolved any time soon?

Its odd, I've commented many times that I feel arafat has passed his prime long ago, and he is doing more harm than help to the palestinian cause. But at the same time he was (is?) the one small thing keeping the situation from completely devolving into all out war. You can see as his influence dwindles (I'm thinking of the refusal by israel to negotiate with him) and has his limited power stripped from him the shit starts to hit the fan...

[Pistol]

It's seems like ALL sides are acting like old men set in their ways unwilling to budge. They NEED some outside mediating. They call on the US but we can't help. We've sent people in there a couple times in the past few months. Nothing. Then Saudi Arabia offered up a plan/solution that would be similar to the plan Clinton proposed a few years back. Personally from what I see I think neither side wants to budge for fear of looking bad in their country. Arafat doesent want to give Israel too much and then not have the respect of the Palestinians. He wants to be remembered for something. And Israel is kinda stuck in a tough spot too. They don't want to give in too much. I mean if they give in too much because of the escalating violence with all these suicidal bombers than people will think the way to get to Israel is to use suicide bombers if they want change. Then again if they don't budge will there ever be peace? From what I've heard these people really hate each other with a passion. I went into a Arabic bookstore and was talking with the owner which was Iraqi/Babylonian he got pretty heated when it came to Israel. And he's not even Palestinian. I just don't know what will happen out there. Maybe it would be better off if Arafat wasn't there "trying" to hold down some sort of peace. Maybe they would engage in an all out war be finished and settle down for a while as horrible as that may seem. Innocent people at shopping centers dying daily isn't much better.

Yeah maybe your right Dazzle. Maybe they need a little herb in their lifes to chill people out. Throw a little in the hookahs before dinner.

[Dr. Dazzle]

This may sound like a totally retarded reply but I',=m not intending it to be at all. Why the fuck don't they kill Arafat?? He's obviolsy the root of all the prob;lems, regardless of amount of proof or whatever. He has shown that he is not willing to negotiate at all, so why not get rid of the source??

The world is so focused on the elimintaion of terrorists right now. But all they are focussing on is Al Queda. What would you cxall the PLF (or whatever group he was a leader of)? Someone has to resolve this shit befor it gets totally out of control. Don't the iSsraelis have nuclear weapons? And one of the strongest armies in the world?

I guess the arguments could be that eliminting him wouldn't eliminate the problem. And palestinians do really have a right to be pissed off...whatever.


SOrry if this sounds like total bullshit. My heads' not working stright right now. Hopefully you can get the point i am trying to make from this jibberish.....

[Pistol]

Trust me I'm sure Israel has thought about this plenty of times. But then again you have to think who would replace Arafat? Maybe someone moreanti-Israel then your fucked to the second power. He's actually calmed down in recent years. I think it might be because he wants to leave a legacy behind. But at the same time he tells the UN, The US, Europe he wants peace for Israel and Palestine but then at the same time has speeches calling for violence against Israel.

[Dr. Dazzle]

The whoole issue is fucked up. I guess it all comes down to religion. As we all know, you don't fuck with middle seasterns and there religion......

[Ski Mask]

I think arafat doesn't have any power to negotiate. He can't even control his own organization, let alone make any promises on behalf on all palestinians. He's a bit of a figurehead these days. But, he still draws enough respect that killing him would unleash a wave of suicide bombers the likes of which we've never seen.

The same circumstances create the suicide bombers, and soldiers who can kill civilians without batting an eyelash. Its from living a life where any day you could step outside your house and be blown to bits by a bomber, or flattened by debris from the rocket attack on the palestenian police station next to your house.

Pistol:
I think when all is said and done, you may be able to find some kind of compromise, but it will be just that. As soon as one side sees the opportunity to eliminate the other, they will. Thats the problem with a conflict over religion, some basic tenets and demands can never change, and thats at the core of this dispute.

[T.T Boy]

they need to solve this issue, i dont see why they cant share the land, i mean sure religious differences, but i dont know about you guys, but i have a mosque, catholic church, jewish church, lutherin church, and a whole wack of other crap within 20 minutes of eachother and i dont have any terrorism in my city. they shuold just live and let live. and the meia coverage shuoldnt be so fucking biased, go talk to a syrian, lebanese, or palestinian about thier views on the jews, quite unfair to say the least. how is fighting a tank with a rock considered terrorism? fuck this gets me so mad. share the fucking land. it was palestinian land, but if you say the jews were booted a long time ago, they should be fighting the romans not the palestinans, fuck just share that shit. its not that hard.




just ignore all this babbling.

[Pistol]

I agree TT. I don't see why they can't just share the land live their life and be happy. Alot of the sticking points to any agreement has to do with power. Israel doesent want to allow Palestinians that moved to be able to move back in with their new families and have citizenship. Palestine want that so they could have more power in the government. But in regards to your comments about rocks and tanks. It's terrorism when you attach bombs to your body , go to a crowded bazaar/market filled with innocent families and explode yourself with nails attached to your body so you can create more shrapnel. Throwing rocks at tanks is idiotic. But most of the time if it is just someone throwing rocks and tanks the Israeli soldiers just watch. They don't just have "shoot to kil" orders on anyone armed with a rock.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle
The whoole issue is fucked up. I guess it all comes down to religion. As we all know, you don't fuck with middle seasterns and there religion......


its not about religion, anymore than the whole northen Ireland thing is....................its about tribalism and racism

[dukeofyork]

israel dont fuck around. if they get hit, they take as much as possible. but they have to, theyre a small country surrounded by a bunch of people that hate them.

its an ugly situation.

[23578]

Yah, it's way fucked up over there right now. Nobody's willing to compromise, so I don't see any stop to it soon. What I find disturbing is the US and their current position of condemning the violence on both sides. What the fucks been happening for the last year (esp. since the 11th) was so much more important that we didn't feel the need to say something before?

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by chozer
israel dont fuck around. if they get hit, they take as much as possible. but they have to, theyre a small country surrounded by a bunch of people that hate them.


maybe they should get the fuck out of the Occupied Territories then.....?

[Ski Mask]

the statements the US has made are all about appearences really. They are the biggest military and financial backer of israel as far as I know. If they really wanted things done they would start cutting funding and support, and stop backing israel so much. Youd see israel cool down real fast if that ever happened...the last people they wanna piss off are the americans.

[dukeofyork]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper


maybe they should get the fuck out of the Occupied Territories then.....?


what, you mean the land of palestine?


there hasnt been a country of palestine in a VERY long time. whether it was jordan ruling the palestinians or the british...it was turned over to the jewish after WWII, despite palestinians discontent. israel showed they were willing to fight over it (backed by the us, yes). is it right? who knows.....its another internet opinion battle..



ugh.

[Mr. Mang]

all i have to say is : fuck israel

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper



its not about religion, anymore than the whole northen Ireland thing is....................its about tribalism and racism


What are you talking about?? It's totally about religion. That's why they can't agree to share the land. I don't know the specifics, but it's something like Palestines Holyland or something to that affect is iin Israel, or vice versa or something. If it was tribalism it could be resolved. In case you've been living in a cave with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears for the last 6 months or so, middle easterns are INCREDIBLY religious, and fanatics use it as and excuse/reason for violence. You, me, or any other maember on this board cannot grasp the scope of that, and that's a major reason of why all this shit happens and they can't just get along......

[seeking]

Try imagining people on Montreal going over to Toronto or some other Canadien city and exploding inside a shopping mall where your mom and dad work or buy groceries, because they want independence from Canada. -pistol

if the people in montreal were being oppressed the way the palestinians are, i wouldnt be able to blame them, even if it meant people close to me died.
if the indians got all pissed off one day and left the reservation, how the fuck could i blame them for killing white people? wouldnt it make more sense to blame 'america' for creating a climate that produced a bunch of pissed off indians?
if you have a belly full of food and and a new episode of the simpsons on tv, your not leaving your house to blow up a rollerskating rink, your chilling on the couch.

as far as im concerned, fuck isreal. i got no love for a midget talking shit to me, just cause he's got brothers on the football team. isreal, and the jewish race in general, is so concerned with making sure the rest of the world knows how bad they have it, yet they could give two shits about anyone else. sorry, i dont give a shit. stand up for everyone, or sit the fuck down. everyone knows about the 6 millions jews killed by germany, but how many people know about the ten million people killed in china? or the 4 million tibetans murdered, or the millions of other people killed every year by opressive governments? if you're not trying to create a global community that stands against opression, then there will always be someone waiting to opress you. if your only concerned with yourself, no one else is gonna give a shit about you.

fuck a isreal.

[donniefrisco]

some info. you might be interested in:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

Then read some stuff on Zionism
http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english...ionism/ch02.htm (http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/ch02.htm)

[Mr. Mang]

everything seeking said = a+ in my opinion.

and yes the halocaust was terrible, but i have almost no idea about any other terrible massacres. total bullshit. that's what i get for public schools i guess.

[seeking]

good stuff fox.


i'll be the first to admit, i dont know all the facts behind this whole situation, but it doesnt take any 'facts' to know that 99% of the time, the bully is the one who needs a good ass whooping.

if the UN told everyone in florida that they had to move out, cause all the cubans were moving in, americans would fucking freak out. yet we support, and have supported for 50 years, the isrealies doing the exact same thing.
i dont blame jews for wanting something of their own, but i can blame them for acting like the world owes them something, so it doesnt matter who they take 'their' piece from. and while i think the halocaust was a unimaginably terrible thing, it doesnt give you free reign to be a fucking dickhead. it's ok to question any country in the world, but isreal, because everyone is so fucking scared of being labeled anti-semetic. there were 4 million people killed during the halocaust that WERENT jewish, but how many people know about that? we know about the 6 million jews, but no one knows, gives a shit, or feels bad for everyone else. why is that? cause the fags and gypsys dont have a fucking advertising agency making sure that the whole world constantly has a tear in its eye so it cant see the bullshit in front of its nose.
blah... i cant deal with people only concerned with their own agenda.

anyone familliar with how we 'aquired' hawaii?


seeking/american/hypocrit by burden of birth

[avils]

Originally posted by seeking innocence
as far as im concerned, fuck isreal. i got no love for a midget talking shit to me, just cause he's got brothers on the football team. isreal, and the jewish race in general, is so concerned with making sure the rest of the world knows how bad they have it, yet they could give two shits about anyone else. sorry, i dont give a shit. stand up for everyone, or sit the fuck down. everyone knows about the 6 millions jews killed by germany, but how many people know about the ten million people killed in china? or the 4 million tibetans murdered, or the millions of other people killed every year by opressive governments? if you're not trying to create a global community that stands against opression, then there will always be someone waiting to opress you. if your only concerned with yourself, no one else is gonna give a shit about you.

fuck a isreal.



you're a moron.. it's been confirmed. :spent:

[seeking]

perhaps youd like to explain why im wrong, instead of just insulting me.

come on, lets here your wisdom on the situation.

[23578]

Originally posted by ese
the statements the US has made are all about appearences really. They are the biggest military and financial backer of israel as far as I know. If they really wanted things done they would start cutting funding and support, and stop backing israel so much. Youd see israel cool down real fast if that ever happened...the last people they wanna piss off are the americans.

This is the sad truth. Fucking lip service.

I know a whole lot about this, and apparently lots of people on here do as well. And that's cool, but I fear we never know the full picture of what's going on. Israel has got to give up/share more if anything's ever going to get done is my general opinion. Like giving up some of the occupied territories, with maybe a few roads connecting thier territories with like international peace keepers, because of sharing being out of the question for the short term at least. . .Yeah we know it's complex guys, just fucking stop bombing each other in the meantime and start talking.

Fuck a Saudi peace too, that shit just screams fucking American imperialism. I was hoping the Saudi's were going to be like, "Yo, this American shit they been giving us (Israel, too) and we don't want to loose it, you fuckin' up our situation, here have some of our land and shut the fuck up. Basically, Here, PLO, STOP FUCKING WITH OUR SHIT." Alas, right now that's the best I can hope for, but it's not happening, and Palistine wouldn't agree to that either?

[serum]

it seems to me that everyone knows this shit is not going to end until either the palestinians are all wiped out or israel gives them the land back atleast from before 1967. they've already agreed to this. however i look at it as the world being the parents and the israel being the big brother and the palestinians being the little brother. the parents have said 'hey jimmy give em his toy back' and walked away.

i think its pretty universally accepted that the palestinians are the oppressed in this situation but its really difficult to get others support understandibly because the palestinians really know how to make themselves look bad, assassinations in the world cup, suicide bombings, etc. they don't really know how to "play the game "so to speak. if they weren't killing so many innocent people then perhaps they'd get support from some where therefore looking like the victims, the oppressed, but no one in their right mind is going to make a political move to help people that kill innocent israelis. arabs nations don't even publicly back them.

israel on the other hand has the land dangling above their head saying "hey you want this back? kiss my ass, no better yet get on your knees and kiss my feet, oh and while you're down there suck my dick." always moving the goal post back 100 yards. arrest militants, arafat arrests a record number of militants and nothing. stop the violence, arafat for the first time in years starts to tell the palestinians to chill, and sharon orders new settlements to be built on palestian occupied territories. sharon is a sick fuck. he knows how to play the game. he has all the jewish people in america on his side and he is obviously getting weapons and support that he need especially in cases where america pretends to be a mediator. how can you mediate farily when you're allies with israel. its like having your boy be the deciding vote in a battle against you and another guy. israel is always going to come out on top no matter what. sharon really just wants to torture arafat and the palestinian people. always accusing arafat for not doing enough when anytime he does something he calls it shit. sharon forgets that he was the fucking dumbass that started the hole escalation of violence by visiting a mosque that from what i believe he had previously ordered the killings of palestinians. he kills off the palestinian police yet tells arafat to have control. how the fuck can you control your people if your police stations are gone? palestinians do some sick shit but i understand them better i guess. i always side with the oppressed.

"give me back my land!"
"no give me head."
"fuck you jew!"
big brother punches him straight in the nose.
"give me back my land!"
"no. now you have to suck my dick and say you're sorry."so he kicks big brother in the shin. and big brother hacks off an arm,
"give me back my land!"
"no, now you must say you're sorry, suck my dick, and swallow." the palestinians now start going for the balls and israel starts assassinating off whoever they feel fit without a trial."
"give me back my land!"
"no you annoying little fuck, now you must say you're sorry, suck my dick, swallow, and lick my ass for good measure." so now palestinians go for the jugular and big brother pleads innocent and says "hey look what these crazy fucks are doing to us poor poor israelis, this calls for a thoughro ass whoopin" israel then goes into little brothers room whenever he wants takes whatever he wants and destroys whatever he wants and even chills in his room for weeks keeping his brother locked in the closet. all this on tv.

my 2 cents, give them back their land, build a fucking wall between both sides and from there if anyone fucks with anyone else then you obviously are screwed because you got your damn land back.

[Pistol]

Everyone needs to remember that there are 2 side to this shit.
First the political side where Palestinians want the land. Anyone who thinks that even if they get the land and stop being "oppressed" that they will be all cool with Israel is fooling themselves. These people hate each other. One of the sticking points is that Palestine and other countries even acknowledge that Israel exists.

I trip out on the WASP kids with everything that want something to fight for always wanna stick up for the Palestinians and bash Israel.

[Spoter]

arafat the root of all the problems???you obviously have no clue about this situation.he's not really that significant.i have nothing against jewish people but fuck israel.the reason it has lasted so long and been "politically correct " in the media's eyes is because of america's support.think about it.where does most of the campaign money from the economy to the presidential candidates come from...the jewish american big whigs in the industry.even the media. i believe a couple of the main tv networks are owned by jewish am. too.as long as israel has that economic support from the US, nothing will get resolved.the palestinians' opinions don't even matter, because israel always ends up being "just".i'm absolutely against terrorism too, but some of these people question why people are so fed over there with the US.i'm not saying it's a good reason to kill at all, but they do have their reasons.and all this bullshit about our gov. trying to get to the root of terrorism is fantasy until the US starts recognizing palestine's requests.shit, the british took land from them already after how many centuries and made it into israel.that;s reason enough to hate.once again religion at work.centuries of wars based on our diferences and religion is still a major part of our society.technology progresses but people remain dumb.


also...as much as i hate bush, i'm thankful gore didn't win...who knows what kinda twisted plots him and Lieberman could have againt palestine.

[Pistol]

THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM IS ALL THOSE FUCKING NUTCASES BLOWING THEMSELVES UP IN SHOPPING CENTERS KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

WASP's Love saying "Fuck Israel"

[High Priest]

An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.

[Pistol]

An eye for an eye leads to 2 motherfuckers with one eye a piece knowing if they fuck up again they might not be around.

[23578]

Originally posted by >>>spot<<<
arafat the root of all the problems???you obviously have no clue about this situation.he's not really that significant.i have nothing against jewish people but fuck israel.the reason it has lasted so long and been "politically correct " in the media's eyes is because of america's support.think about it.where does most of the campaign money from the economy to the presidential candidates come from...the jewish american big whigs in the industry.even the media. i believe a couple of the main tv networks are owned by jewish am. too.as long as israel has that economic support from the US, nothing will get resolved.the palestinians' opinions don't even matter, because israel always ends up being "just".i'm absolutely against terrorism too, but some of these people question why people are so fed over there with the US.i'm not saying it's a good reason to kill at all, but they do have their reasons.and all this bullshit about our gov. trying to get to the root of terrorism is fantasy until the US starts recognizing palestine's requests.shit, the british took land from them already after how many centuries and made it into israel.that;s reason enough to hate.once again religion at work.centuries of wars based on our diferences and religion is still a major part of our society.technology progresses but people remain dumb.


also...as much as i hate bush, i'm thankful gore didn't win...who knows what kinda twisted plots him and Lieberman could have againt palestine.

this almost sounds a bit racist, i'm sorry spot, the whole zog theory=rascism.

[23578]

Originally posted by serum
it seems to me that everyone knows this shit is not going to end until either the palestinians are all wiped out or israel gives them the land back atleast from before 1967. they've already agreed to this. however i look at it as the world being the parents and the israel being the big brother and the palestinians being the little brother. the parents have said 'hey jimmy give em his toy back' and walked away.

i think its pretty universally accepted that the palestinians are the oppressed in this situation but its really difficult to get others support understandibly because the palestinians really know how to make themselves look bad, assassinations in the world cup, suicide bombings, etc. they don't really know how to "play the game "so to speak. if they weren't killing so many innocent people then perhaps they'd get support from some where therefore looking like the victims, the oppressed, but no one in their right mind is going to make a political move to help people that kill innocent israelis. arabs nations don't even publicly back them.

israel on the other hand has the land dangling above their head saying "hey you want this back? kiss my ass, no better yet get on your knees and kiss my feet, oh and while you're down there suck my dick." always moving the goal post back 100 yards. arrest militants, arafat arrests a record number of militants and nothing. stop the violence, arafat for the first time in years starts to tell the palestinians to chill, and sharon orders new settlements to be built on palestian occupied territories. sharon is a sick fuck. he knows how to play the game. he has all the jewish people in america on his side and he is obviously getting weapons and support that he need especially in cases where america pretends to be a mediator. how can you mediate farily when you're allies with israel. its like having your boy be the deciding vote in a battle against you and another guy. israel is always going to come out on top no matter what. sharon really just wants to torture arafat and the palestinian people. always accusing arafat for not doing enough when anytime he does something he calls it shit. sharon forgets that he was the fucking dumbass that started the hole escalation of violence by visiting a mosque that from what i believe he had previously ordered the killings of palestinians. he kills off the palestinian police yet tells arafat to have control. how the fuck can you control your people if your police stations are gone? palestinians do some sick shit but i understand them better i guess. i always side with the oppressed.

"give me back my land!"
"no give me head."
"fuck you jew!"
big brother punches him straight in the nose.
"give me back my land!"
"no. now you have to suck my dick and say you're sorry."so he kicks big brother in the shin. and big brother hacks off an arm,
"give me back my land!"
"no, now you must say you're sorry, suck my dick, and swallow." the palestinians now start going for the balls and israel starts assassinating off whoever they feel fit without a trial."
"give me back my land!"
"no you annoying little fuck, now you must say you're sorry, suck my dick, swallow, and lick my ass for good measure." so now palestinians go for the jugular and big brother pleads innocent and says "hey look what these crazy fucks are doing to us poor poor israelis, this calls for a thoughro ass whoopin" israel then goes into little brothers room whenever he wants takes whatever he wants and destroys whatever he wants and even chills in his room for weeks keeping his brother locked in the closet. all this on tv.

my 2 cents, give them back their land, build a fucking wall between both sides and from there if anyone fucks with anyone else then you obviously are screwed because you got your damn land back.


They won't give them thier land back, what you said, they offered them the (1967) land, yeah, but only if they can own a spiderweb structure of roads connecting the remaining territories OWNED by Israel. I didn't know if you know this.

I'm with you on the big brother, little brother thing, maybe it's more like big brother, redheaded stepchild little brother however.

[23578]

Originally posted by Pistol
I trip out on the WASP kids with everything that want something to fight for always wanna stick up for the Palestinians and bash Israel.

Yeah, me too, in a bad way. However, I'll generalize further and say most other types of people who stick up for Palestinians are in the right 100%.

[willy.wonka]

i hate war,but what the fuck is taking america so long to destroy Hussien Saddam?!

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by ese
the statements the US has made are all about appearences really. They are the biggest military and financial backer of israel as far as I know. If they really wanted things done they would start cutting funding and support, and stop backing israel so much. Youd see israel cool down real fast if that ever happened...the last people they wanna piss off are the americans.

when kids can't play nice - you take away the fucking toys..................




and chozer - my understanding is that Israel moved into areas BEYOND what they got after WWII, around 1967 i think......



and don't tell me it's about religion.........thats shite! Do you think that suicide bombers are really doing what they do, because these people do not believe what they believe?!?

Of course not, they do it because they hate Israelis - and have been brought up with that all their lives..............and vice versa
They hate them because they're Jews, not because they believe in Judaism - thats TRIBALISM

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
and don't tell me it's about religion.........thats shite! Do you think that suicide bombers are really doing what they do, because these people do not believe what they believe?!?

Of course not, they do it because they hate Israelis - and have been brought up with that all their lives..............and vice versa
They hate them because they're Jews, not because they believe in Judaism - thats TRIBALISM



I can't believe you just said that. Suicide bombers aren't motivated by religion?? Sigh.....I'm not even going to try to explain this to you

[seeking]

Originally posted by willy.wonka
i hate war,but what the fuck is taking america so long to destroy saddam hussain?!

ummm, i dont know, i think it might have to do with the fact that invading iraq will piss off EVERYONE, including our allies, and might very well lead to ww3.
i hate to break it to you, but the US and our sanctions are responsible for more death, disease and famine in iraq than sadaam is. also, dont forget that until he decided to invade kuwait, he was our allie. all those weapons his soldiers threw down against us, we gave him. he only became our enemy when he stood to hold a monopoly on oil.

oil, by the way, ive decided is the root of all evil in the world, because oil controls EVERYTHING. without it, our whole society beaks down. that makes me mad. america makes me mad.

[BROWNer]

this might be too small a blipoid on the radar, but has anyone here
been hearing anything solid on this so-called 'israeli spy ring' shit???
somebody mentioned this to me, sounds very 'conspiracy theory'..
please explain.............

as far as iraq, word seeking...all i can say about that is yipes.
i don't give a shit about saddam, but the people, man, have
some humanity. its such a double standard...
lets not forget that when he went to town on
the kurds the us just stood by and watched. who's evil?
and iran..iran is arguably a good place full of good people contrary
to what is shoved down our throats. you get this anti-americanism
type media focus all the time lately
becuz the us comes out and disses a whole population as
'evil', no wonder they're pissed off. khatami(sp?) is a good guy trying to do good things, even
bring in american culture and product.
and qaddafi.....he doesn't let america push him around
and so they get all pissy pants and blackball him. qaddafi has some great
qualities. anyhow...........
looks like we're just gonna have to get used to all this war.
i'm thinking another decade of this shit at least.
good times.

[seeking]

15 years ago, the iranians where our allies.
so whats changed since then to make them so evil?

we didnt need them to fund the contras in niceragua, thats what.

how anyone can have even the slightest bit of respect for our government is literally beyond me. we do nothing but fuck people over, then we wonder why they're pissed off at us. id hate us too if i was libyian. shit, i hate us and im 'american'

[imported_Tesseract]

All i know is that mosant(sp?) ,the israeli intelligence, is like the middleast cia department...seeking is right it doesnt need much backround to realise that stuff, check documents of every shady event...even photos, there's always some cia agent in the frame.
The amount of hypocricy is ridiculous and the reasons given childish, Take note that while milocevic is being trialed for war crimes Clinton and Blur are nominated for the peace noble prize specificly for the NATO attack on yugoslavia.
If you ask me US is losing credibilty...and with the industrial progress thats going on in the rest of the world it doesnt take much before balances change...be aware of CHINA

[BROWNer]

i've got no handle on public policy, but
the bush administration, to me anyhow,
just seems like this swaggering reckless
contradictory hot shot. its just amazing to me.....
seeking *, you ever read that harpers article on kissinger....?
if that doesn't sway you to the workings of the
american government, then you're a head case.
there's a whole load of mini-kissinger's out there.
kissinger the template.

*or tesseract

[seeking]

to be honest, i dont read nearly as much as i should. which probably explains why i dont really care about, or really remember, the smaller details of any given situation. i figure, i dont need to know details to know that bush is a fucking moron. that pulling out of the arms treaty with the soviets is just a complete fucking waste of our money. were not at war with the soviets, were not at war with china, were not at war with anyone that has long range nuke capabilities, and we sure as shit dont need any more nukes than we already have. we dont need star wars, we need a government that is run by the people and in the peoples best interests, not by multi-national corporations and what will make them even more rich. if nothing else, this whole deal has proven that we dont need to worry about a giant country attacking us with sophisticated weapons, we need to worry about small countries attacking us with germ warfare, and other gurilla tactics. so yeah, its great that bush wants to spend trillions of dollars on a plan to blow nukes out of the sky, in the EXTREMEMLY UNLIKELY event that they are launched at us, but is that gonna stop anyone from spreading the eboli virus over ny city? figgidy figgidy fuck no.
feel good laws and back room corporate politics will be the downfall of america. and to be perfectly honest, regardless of my fate in the situation, im gonna have to laugh about it...

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle



I can't believe you just said that. Suicide bombers aren't motivated by religion?? Sigh.....I'm not even going to try to explain this to you

In that case, why don't I explain it to you.........

I didn't say religion wasn't a factor, I said it wasn't the main issue.

DO YOU THINK THAT PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS OR ISRAELI TANK DRIVERS GIVE A FUCK WHAT THEIR VICTIMS BELIEVE PERSONALLY? NO, THEY CARE WHAT RACIAL GROUP THEY WERE BORN IN TO.



Main Entry: trib·al·ism
Pronunciation: -b&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1886
1 : tribal consciousness and loyalty; especially : exaltation of the tribe above other groups
2 : strong in-group loyalty


Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith




sorry, but I do feel that tribalism is a better description for what's happening than ANYTHING to do with religion.

Do you think if an Israeli family converted to Islam and moved a Palestinian area, that they would be left alone? Its not about religion, its about racial decent

[imported_Tesseract]

Yes, but in that case as well as in many others religion created racial decent.
Anyway, theres no point of an "did the egg make the chicken?" argument.

[bodice_ripper]

my point being, its not about the differences betwwen the beliefs held in Islam and Judaism

[seeking]

i dont care to get involved in this particular discussion, but control over the 'holy' land plays a large part....

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
my point being, its not about the differences betwwen the beliefs held in Islam and Judaism

So what started the whole thing?? Why do you think they hate each other? Islam and Jewish tensions have been around for thousands of years. This is just one high profile incident of many.

Obviously tribalism plays a part, but don't you think if it was just that it could be sorted? It's more than just a conflict over land, it's centuries of religous conflict coming to a head.

You have your opinion, I have mine. The only difference is that mine is right:D

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle


So what started the whole thing?? Why do you think they hate each other? Islam and Jewish tensions have been around for thousands of years. This is just one high profile incident of many.

Obviously tribalism plays a part, but don't you think if it was just that it could be sorted? It's more than just a conflict over land, it's centuries of religous conflict coming to a head.



tsk tsk

can't believe you just said that. Tribalism could just be sorted?? Sigh.....I'm not even going to try to explain this to you



Funny really, but i haven't heard a goddamn thing from the middle east that said ANYTHING about beliefs................other than its ok to kill someone from X group
sounds like tribalism to me.................

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
Sigh.....I'm not even going to try to explain this to you

Hahaha....nice one


But seriously open any history book and you'll see about the middle east and their BELIEFS.

Oh, and there was that whole 9/11 thing. Don't know if you heard about it.....

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

You guys are all fucking stupid.

The Jews and Arabs have been fighting for thousands of years. It will not stop. Deal with it. You bitching and moaning will do nothing, as will your dumb ass opinion, WILL DO NOTHING. America? HA, it can do nothing but fuel the fire. They are fighting over holy land.

How are you going to justify what those piece of shit palestinian suicide fucks are doing??? How about some crazy fuck goes into your church, school, nightclub or any place where you like to hang out and decides he wants to blow himself up or open fire on a crowd of people??? I bet you would be pretty pissed off.

Arafat. What a piece of garbage. This guy was the leader of the PLO yet he gets the fucking Nobel Peace Prize. What a crock of shit. This guy kisses everyones ass while he sticks a knife in thier backs. The Al-Aqusa Martyrs Brigade is an offshoot from Arafats orginazation. How does he not know what they are doing? Its really easy to say "Um oh yeah... I condemn the attacks." While in your mind saying, " Damn Mohammad Abdul did a good job, 11 young Jews dead."

Sharon. Good guy, Isreal needed him a long time ago. He doesnt take shit.

Peace talks have been tried for years, its all bullshit. All you need is one crazy extremist palestinian to fuck everything up. Who starts the violence every time???

And to the guy that tried to compare the searches and whatnot to the holocaust, you fucking putz. The Jews in Germany didnt go around blowing themselves up or shooting up German neighbourhoods. They were simply Jews and being persecuted for being Jewish.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle


Hahaha....nice one


But seriously open any history book and you'll see about the middle east and their BELIEFS.

Oh, and there was that whole 9/11 thing. Don't know if you heard about it.....

you know, this post did NOWT to connect the fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians to the differences betwwen the beliefs held in Islam and Judaism

feel free to let me know what important issues the two religions differ on SO much that their followers must slaughter each other.............


also feel free to quote any passages in the Quran where it states that to be a Muslim you MUST blow up buildings

I know a lot of Muslims who wold take issue with your implying that Islam supports this sort of behaviour....................

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force
You guys are all fucking stupid.


How are you going to justify what those piece of shit palestinian suicide fucks are doing??? How about some crazy fuck goes into your church, school, nightclub or any place where you like to hang out and decides he wants to blow himself up or open fire on a crowd of people??? I bet you would be pretty pissed off.


Sharon. Good guy, Isreal needed him a long time ago. He doesnt take shit. .

How the fuck are you going to justify blowing up a hospital?



neither side's hands are clean..........................


(and in response to the "what can America do?" question - stop supplying the weapons........................................)

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper


you know, this post did NOWT to connect the fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians to the differences betwwen the beliefs held in Islam and Judaism

feel free to let me know what important issues the two religions differ on SO much that their followers must slaughter each other.............


also feel free to quote any passages in the Quran where it states that to be a Muslim you MUST blow up buildings

I know a lot of Muslims who wold take issue with your implying that Islam supports this sort of behaviour....................

Perhaps you should venture upwards in this thread to see that I am not implying that as a Muslim you must blow up buildings. What I am SAYING is that FANATICS use RELIGION as an EXCUSE or REASON to kill themselves and use violence as a means of getting their point across. Not just Muslims, all religions. Am I to take it then that you think ALL Palestinians want to fight the Israelis? Do all Palestinians agree with the fact that in order to get their land back they should blow up restaurants and schools? Do all Israelis want to see their army unload ona bus?? I don't think so. I'm almost certain that 99.9% of both countries would like to see the issue resolved peacefully. The people that are commiting these crimes are FANATICS, who are motivated by RELIGION. They believe that by blowing themselves up and sacrificing innocent lives they will be traeted as GODS in the afterlife....

This thread is quickly turning into a Dr. Dazzle VS bodice ripper thread.....

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle


. What I am SAYING is that FANATICS use RELIGION as an EXCUSE or REASON to kill themselves and use violence as a means of getting their point across.

This thread is quickly turning into a Dr. Dazzle VS bodice ripper thread.....

my very point. Its not about the actual religions, just people who hate each other using it as an excuse

are we done now?:(


I get the impression that it turned into Dr. Dazzle vs bodice_ripper not so much because we disagree, but because we haven't got enough to do..................

now what thread will I hover around?:confused:

[Mr. Mang]

until the playing field is leveled i'll definitely side with palestine.

israel = pussies

reasons?

land thieves

f-16 fighter jets
apache attack helicopters
all kinds of other weapons
SUPPLED BY THE US



palestine HAS to play dirty. you would too if you had to throw stones at tanks. what a bunch of bullshit.

it may sound terrible, but i cant feel bad for any palestinian attacks on israelis when the playing field is completely unfair.






(and on the hussein issue - in 88 i believe, saddam gassed thousands of people. i think it was in their northern border i dunno. but what i do know is after that we CONTINUED to send him weapons. i think we may have even increased weapon sales.)

[Dr. Dazzle]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper


my very point. Its not about the actual religions, just people who hate each other using it as an excuse

are we done now?:(


I get the impression that it turned into Dr. Dazzle vs bodice_ripper not so much because we disagree, but because we haven't got enough to do..................

now what thread will I hover around?:confused:


Whatever, I'm just going to stop this anyway......

But it's still about Religion:D

[bodice_ripper]

TRIBALISM


nah nah:crazy:

[seeking]

jewish task force,
how suprising for you to give complete amnesty to isreal. :rolleyes:

how are we "SO FUCKING STUPID" when you presented nothing but opinions? your opinions dont make our wrong, and none of us have claimed our opinions to be anything but just that.

"How are you going to justify what those piece of shit palestinian suicide fucks are doing??? How about some crazy fuck goes into your church, school, nightclub or any place where you like to hang out and decides he wants to blow himself up or open fire on a crowd of people??? I bet you would be pretty pissed off. "

actually, i wouldnt attend any school, church or or nightclub that supported the imprisionment, genocide, and enslavement of that countries indigenous people, so if the club blew up, i really wouldnt be that moved, and more than likely would root for the bomber. why? cause i can relate to being so desperate for freedom and self determination that you would be billing to kill yourself to bring about change.

but again, im just 'fucking stupid'

[ASER1NE]

since im an ass i dont really care what the hell happens bc its half way around the world and doesnt affect me whatsoever , yeah its tragic that thousands of ppl are being killed , but no one is doing anything to solve the underlying problem , they just continue to perpetuate the violence , the saying cooler heads will prevail seems to have been completely abandoned , and its not going to get any better until somebody takes a more responsible view an actually does something to promote peace . and frankly im glad that they are invading palestine with tanks and shooting missles at them , no it doesnt help any , but i guess its better that one side shows a strong showing of force and even starts a war that both sides just continue to mindlessly attack each other , bc eventually one side or the other will 'win' and then finally maybe the situation will come under atleast a small bit of control .

[BROWNer]

wow...
there's been almost or even more than 3
times the total body count of dead israeli's for
dead palestinians....800-900+ (*in the last 17-18months).
scales are tipped.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Originally posted by seeking innocence


actually, i wouldnt attend any school, church or or nightclub that supported the imprisionment, genocide, and enslavement of that countries indigenous people, so if the club blew up, i really wouldnt be that moved, and more than likely would root for the bomber. why? cause i can relate to being so desperate for freedom and self determination that you would be billing to kill yourself to bring about change.

but again, im just 'fucking stupid'


I better watch what I say before I get banned.

You attended school in the US I presume? Well the United States has supported the imprisionment, genocide, and enslavement of many countries indigenous poeple. So stop trying to be all self-rightous. This country that we all live in has done some fucked up shit. Not saying that we deserve attacks, but just saying that you are trying to be all cool saying, I dont support this , I dont support that. You dont know what you support or dont support. Go live in Isreal for a few years, come back and tell me what its like. JEWS are Isreal's indigenous peoples. Judaism is not just a religion but a culture and race of people. We took back our country and now we are defending it.

imprisionment, genocide, and enslavement

Dont get me started about the imprisonment, genocide and enslavement of Jews that has been happening for thousands of years. And for what?? Being Jewish.



You better stop believing what the press is telling you.

[Mr. Mang]

israel stole the land from palestine. they should have gotten it from someone else. period. we don't need a guilt trip about the jewish culture.

i dont think what seeking said was dunb at all. makes complete sense to me.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Originally posted by Mr. Mang
israel stole the land from palestine. they should have gotten it from someone else. period.

Oh, and you are a fucking genius with that comment. Now tell me, if Isreal were to "steal" land from someone else, wouldn't you be bitching about it still? And why did Jews pick that piece of land, because it was ours to begin with.

1. No land was stolen. Land was taken back.
2. Stealing land is what America did to the Native Americans. ( now if they started an uprising, coming into your church, school, bar etc, blowing themselves up and opening fire on innocent people, you would be defending your country now wouldnt you? )

[Mr. Mang]

how long ago was it the jewish land? thousands of years?

if native americans started killing americans, i couldn't blame them. fair is fair.

honestly.




i'm just saying i wish the jewish people would find somewhere else to make a jewish land instead of trying to 'take it back'. but since it is holy i guess that's outta the question.

[Pistol]

Originally posted by Mr. Mang
how long ago was it the jewish land? thousands of years?

if native americans started killing americans, i couldn't blame them. fair is fair.

honestly.




i'm just saying i wish the jewish people would find somewhere else to make a jewish land instead of trying to 'take it back'. but since it is holy i guess that's outta the question.

The SAME people that say shit like "an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind" are the same people on here applauding the Palestinian movement which revolves arounf sending in martyrs to shopping markets and exploding themselves next to women and children with nails attached to themselves to make an even more dangerous explosion. The same people on here that scream out against the war on terrorism and want peace and hugs are the same people that stick up for these fucking martyrs trying to see the reason behind it and understand what these people are feeling and why they do this shit.
So Palestine got their land stolen, who didn't? Why don't they just chill the fuck out and try to get it back politically. I mean what is bombing innocent women and children at the supermarket gonna do? Is it somesort of revenge , remember "an eye for an eye leaves everbody blind"

[Spoter]

no land stolen?you come back after CENTURIES and claim it's not stolen?how can you say that?maybe we should give good old USA back to the natives, and it doesn't even matter people have been moving here from all over the world for a couple centuries, building a new society and economy and living comfortably.maybe we should all just leave with no hesitation.maybe we should let the romans in italy have whole europe?it's that simple isn't it?you're a one sided fool.sheron a good man...ha.he's as good as napoleon, hitler, and all the other dictators that live in a stolen land and are fed up with the people they stole land from.


to who ever said i was racist:make your judgement more clear and explain zog theory.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Bullshit. You know if a Sioux Indian walked into a place where a bunch of your homies were chilling, or your mom or dads work and opened fire or blew himself up you would be pretty pissed. And if this was happening all over America for more than a year and a half you would be even more pissed. You would also hope that GW Bush put in the order to roll tanks and shit into thier reservations. Dont front.


It is Holy Land. Holy not only to Jews but to Christianity as well.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Originally posted by >>>spot<<<
no land stolen?you come back after CENTURIES and claim it's not stolen?how can you say that?maybe we should give good old USA back to the natives, and it doesn't even matter people have been moving here from all over the world for a couple centuries, building a new society and economy and living comfortably.maybe we should all just leave with no hesitation.maybe we should let the romans in italy have whole europe?it's that simple isn't it?you're a one sided fool.sheron a good man...ha.he's as good as napoleon, hitler, and all the other dictators that live in a stolen land and are fed up with the people they stole land from.


to who ever said i was racist:make your judgement more clear and explain zog theory.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop ranting, take a deep breath and try to make sense.

[Spoter]

exactly.if there's been a pretty hardcore uprising against that land your people "took back", then they should realize they shouldn't be there in the first place.the difference is the americans europeans had won the war a loooong time ago against the indians.that's why i'm living comfortably amongst millions of other people in this country.the israelis are way outnumbered and yet they still claim it's their land and that muslims are insane and their actions are always for defensive reasons.

[Spoter]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force



You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop ranting, take a deep breath and try to make sense.
actually i know quite a bit about the middle east in general.don't make assumptions you don't know me.i know i have more right to talk about this than most of you.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force
.

It is Holy Land. Holy not only to Jews but to Christianity as well.


indeed, and to the Muslims.



notice the Christians aren't that pushed anymore, at least in comparison with the Jews/Arabs. That, I can only assume, is because of the higher standard of living. So I have the answer: Capitolism, it worked before...............

all joking aside, raising people's standard of living is the key


and as Bono pointed out at that world forum - There's another ten Afghanistans waiting to happen in Africa.........................

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Out damned spot. You dont fool me.

Outnumbered? Yes. Kicking their ass. Yes.

If you are so smart, what started this violence. Not all of it, but just the ongoing violence, the violence that started a year and a half ago.

[bodice_ripper]

I think that the Saudi suggestion is the best I have heard so far........................


QUOTE:
Outnumbered? Yes. Kicking their ass. Yes.


neither side ought to gloat like this - there are CHILDREN being killed you idiot.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper



indeed, and to the Muslims.



notice the Christians aren't that pushed anymore, at least in comparison with the Jews/Arabs. That, I can only assume, is because of the higher standard of living. So I have the answer: Capitolism, it worked before...............

all joking aside, raising people's standard of living is the key


and as Bono pointed out at that world forum - There's another ten Afghanistans waiting to happen in Africa.........................


So wait, are you trying to say Jews in America are poor? Are you trying to say that Jews in Europe are poor? Are you trying to say that Jews in Isreal are poor? Jews not capitalists? Are you fucking crazy????

Look at the majority of Arab countries. The citizens live in poverty.
Look at Isrealis, they live pretty well. Its irrelevant but......


Ok, keep defending Palestinians.. Assist them. They will turn on you just like the other Arab countries the US tried to help.

Afghanistan: We helped them out against Russia, taught the army that became the Taliban and Alqueda(Osama and all his top aides were in this army getting trained by Americans) and now we are fighting against them. This will happen agian.

Kuwait: We helped them out when they got invaded by Iraq. Now in a poll of Arab countries, they were 7-10 for the WTC attacks.

Palestinians: Dont forget they were cheering when the WTC happened.

Is this the thanks we get?

[Mr. Mang]

you'd be cheering too if a country that supplied your enemy heavily got attacked.


let's say iraq heavily armed palestine and made an unfair fight. one day terrorists attacked them. 10 bucks says you'd be glad they got attacked.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

I would be glad they got attacked anyway. Fuck Iraq. Dont forget, USA is the Arab worlds enemy, no matter how much those countries try to hide it. Think about that.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force



So wait, are you trying to say Jews in America are poor? Are you trying to say that Jews in Europe are poor? Are you trying to say that Jews in Isreal are poor? Jews not capitalists? Are you fucking crazy????

Look at the majority of Arab countries. The citizens live in poverty.
Look at Isrealis, they live pretty well. Its irrelevant but......


Ok, keep defending Palestinians.. Assist them. They will turn on you just like the other Arab countries the US tried to help.

Afghanistan: We helped them out against Russia, taught the army that became the Taliban and Alqueda(Osama and all his top aides were in this army getting trained by Americans) and now we are fighting against them. This will happen agian.

Kuwait: We helped them out when they got invaded by Iraq. Now in a poll of Arab countries, they were 7-10 for the WTC attacks.

Palestinians: Dont forget they were cheering when the WTC happened.

Is this the thanks we get?

There's no "we" here.

I don't believe there's ANY justifaction for killing kids, ever. Both sides are doing this. So, no I don't support what the Palestinians are doing. I'm not even talking about whether or not Israel should be there

However, they should get the fuck out of the Occupied Territories.

you gave examples of who the US (no "me" or "us") had given military aid to
and you left out Israel
this could backfire just as easily, seeing as US backing Israel without question is CLEARLY one of the sources of Arab hatred of the US

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

I left out Isreal because it is not an Arab country.

[bodice_ripper]

Quote:
USA is the Arab worlds enemy, no matter how much those countries try to hide it. Think about that.


I have thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that this was OBVIOUSLY inpart because of the unquestioning support that the US gives Israel

[Mr. Mang]

maybe i'm wrong, but i heard that cheering footage was form years ago and was unrelated to the WTC . . .


but maybe i'm wrong.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
Quote:
USA is the Arab worlds enemy, no matter how much those countries try to hide it. Think about that.


I have thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that this was OBVIOUSLY inpart because of the unquestioning support that the US gives Israel


Wrong, that hated the US way before any support was given to Israel.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force



Wrong, that hated the US way before any support was given to Israel.


All the more reason to give them a quite valid reason to loathe the US, right?:rolleyes:

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Yes but irrelivant. If I hate you now, I will hate you more if you help my enemy. They still hate the US. So the US helps Israel fight them.

quote:
'you gave examples of who the US (no "me" or "us") had given military aid to
and you left out Israel
this could backfire just as easily, seeing as US backing Israel without question is CLEARLY one of the sources of Arab hatred of the US"


What the fuck are you trying to justify here?

[bodice_ripper]

I'm not trying to justify anything

you mentioned the people the US armed, and then it backfired
I pointed out that the US is arming Israel and it is backfiring


Quote:
They still hate the US. So the US helps Israel fight them.


YOU on the other hand are arguing that the US is involved because that Arabs hate them. I would have thought that the relatively large Jewish population (who vote) of the US was a more likely cause.........................

[Step8]

Originally posted by Jewish Task Force
Arafat. What a piece of garbage. This guy was the leader of the PLO yet he gets the fucking Nobel Peace Prize. What a crock of shit.

i agree totally with this, neither arafat nor rabine(sp!) should have been given a peace prize.

a question that needs to be asked is whether the Palestinian Authority should unilaterally declare the creation of a Palestinian state in the Occupide Territories? will it stop the violence? i doubt it, and it will probably lead to an escalation in the conflict..... on the other hand the palestinians dont seem to have much more of a choice either.

[imported_Jewish Task Force]

Nothing will stop the violence. End of story. That land has been faught over for thousands of years. No fucking peace talk will help it.

[willy.wonka]

Originally posted by seeking innocence


ummm, i dont know, i think it might have to do with the fact that invading iraq will piss off EVERYONE, including our allies, and might very well lead to ww3.
i hate to break it to you, but the US and our sanctions are responsible for more death, disease and famine in iraq than sadaam is. also, dont forget that until he decided to invade kuwait, he was our allie. all those weapons his soldiers threw down against us, we gave him. he only became our enemy when he stood to hold a monopoly on oil.

oil, by the way, ive decided is the root of all evil in the world, because oil controls EVERYTHING. without it, our whole society beaks down. that makes me mad. america makes me mad.

seeking....i love you.
the only "good" i can see from a big war is casulties so large that the human race will be a small one...

fuckin greed....

[willy.wonka]

The Six Day War
Introduction
The Six Day War broke out on June 5, 1967, following three weeks of tension which began on May 15, 1967 when it became known that Egypt had concentrated large-scale forces in the Sinai peninsula. Egypt's force buildup in the Sinai was accompanied by other serious steps: the United Nations Emergency Force stationed on the border between Egypt and Israel and Sharm el-Sheikh in 1957 and which had provided an actual separation between the countries was evacuated on May 19 upon the demands of the Egyptian president at the time, Gamal Abdel-Nasser; the Egyptian navy blocked the Straits of Tiran, located at the end of the Gulf of Eilat, on the night of May 22-23, 1967, preventing the passage of any Israeli vessels; and on May 30, 1967, Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command. Iraq followed suit. It agreed to send reinforcement and issued a warning order to two brigades: Contingents arrived from other Arab countries including Algeria and Kuwait. Israel was confronted by an Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft.

In this way, a direct threat along the whole length of Israel's territory was created. The Egyptian Army was deployed in the Sinai, the straits were closed signaling the failure of Israeli deterrence, and Jordan joined the military alliance closing the circle of the states threatening Israel’s borders. As the situation deteriorated, Israel increased its reserve forces call-up which had already been underway and established a National Unity government which included representatives of the opposition parties at that time. Moshe Dayan was appointed Minister of Defense. Though the Government of Israel viewed the closing of the straits as a belligerent act and a warning bell, the government tried to solve the crisis through political channels. The government of Israel approached the Great Powers who had guaranteed the freedom of Israeli navigation. Britain and France reneged on their commitment and the President of the United States proposed a plan for breaking the blockade by an international armada. Israel agreed to wait and give the plan a chance and Prime Minister Eshkol announced his Government’s intentions in a radio broadcast on 28 May. Israel’s decision to wait was taken despite the fact that it was well aware that the main threat had now become the Egyptian deployment in the Sinai and not the closing of the straits. When it became clear later that the political demarches had failed, the Government, on June 4 gave approval to the Israel Defense Forces to undertake military offensive to eliminate the threat to Israel’s existence.

This dramatic development was the height of continued deterioration in the relations between Israel and her neighbors. The state of war that had existed since 1948 was already intensified between 1964-67 with the increase in the number of dangerous incidents on the Syrian border following Israel’s activation of the National Water Carrier from the Sea of Galilee to the Negev in 1964. This tension came against the backdrop of Syrian attacks on Israeli farmers cultivating land in the demilitarized zone and on Israeli fishing boats and other craft in the Sea of Galilee. The Arabs opposed the National Water Carrier project and tried to destroy it by diverting the subsidiaries of the Jordan river located in their territories. In addition, at the start of 1965 Palestinian terrorist organizations, under the patronage of both Syria and Egypt, began to operate against Israeli settlements. Their attacks led to Israeli military reprisals against their bases located in neighboring countries. The Arabs were strengthened in their stand by the consistent support of the USSR, through both the supply of weapons and military advisers and through political support in the framework of the cold war between the East and West. It was the Soviets who spread the false report in 1967 that Israel had concentrated large forces on the border with Syria in preparation to attack, after the Syrians had already "heated up" the border area. This fraudulent report was the declared reason for the concentration of Egyptian forces in Sinai, in confirmation with the military alliance between Egypt and Syria. This concentration of forces gradually led the Arabs to believe that an opportunity had been created to realize their 19-year aspiration to destroy Israel. In the light of this development, Israel had no choice but to preempt.

[ASER1NE]

i know what your thinking , its kinda late to go swimming

[seeking]

JTF,
perhaps if you disagree, youd like to counter the things people are saying with fact, instead of just insulting them and telling them they dont know anything.
if you are going to parade around your list of arab countries we 'helped' then i will counter with the FACT that we 'helped' them until it was advantagous to help their enemies, then we turned tail.

we helped afghanistan because we feared the russians would spread communism further, and that would be bad for american businesses. do you honestly think we gave a fuck about their people? if we did, why did we just give the taliban 43 million dollars, 6 months before the attacks? why did enron officials meet with the taliban just days before the attacks to discuss running a pipeline through afghanistan?

we gave arms to iran, in exchange for them giving money to the contras, who we could not sponsor, as it went against the very rules we set up in the UN for the whole world to follow. then, when they went to war with iraq, we , refused to give them parts, ammo and support they turned on us and took hostages. ford made a deal to get them back, reagan got them to hold off on releasing them until the day of his inaugeration, so it would be a great news story. reagan then began backing iraq, which we continued to do, as sadaam took over any country he wanted, until he got to kuwait. then we got pissed cause it was fucking with our oil. so we blow the shit out or iraq, then leave kuwait completely fucked up, in worse shape than it was before.

korea: again, another communist country that were pissed cause we cant sell them coca cola. we can dress them up as being a threat cause they have nukes, and blah blah, but we have nukes, so why arent we a threat to everyone else? cause were moraly right, and sound? i think not.

china: china boasts the largest population in the world, is it any wonder why were bending over backwards to suck their cocks while we tickle their assholes?



should i go on?



i dont agree with anyone killing any innocent people anywhere, but i can understand the desperation to be heard, that can come about when no one gives a fuck about you and your people.


jews didnt 'steal' isreal, it was given to them by the UN, lead by brittan. a pretty terrible fucking choice of place if you ask me. after we put the jews in place there, they immediatly began branching out and taking over occupied lands. this was easy, considering the money they had, verse the incredible lack of money that the palestinians had.


whatever, this is my last post on the subject... discussion is futile when those involved would rather rely on opinion and insults, than fact, to make their stand.

[Soul_On_Ice]

this doesn't relate directly to this thread but have you all heard about the U.S. developing smaller nuclear weapons to use in case some of the countries in the middle east get out of hand.

[23578]

Originally posted by Pistol


The SAME people that say shit like "an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind" are the same people on here applauding the Palestinian movement which revolves arounf sending in martyrs to shopping markets and exploding themselves next to women and children with nails attached to themselves to make an even more dangerous explosion. The same people on here that scream out against the war on terrorism and want peace and hugs are the same people that stick up for these fucking martyrs trying to see the reason behind it and understand what these people are feeling and why they do this shit.
So Palestine got their land stolen, who didn't? Why don't they just chill the fuck out and try to get it back politically. I mean what is bombing innocent women and children at the supermarket gonna do? Is it somesort of revenge , remember "an eye for an eye leaves everbody blind"

And then there are people (hint, hint) like you who feel that they are the only ones living in the real world. Quoting the bible while they're getting their killing on. Please, spare us your claims of immunity.

[serum]

bump for the sickness going on in palestine. i'd really like to hear the pro-israel heads defend this one. people are being bulldozed alive in their houses, civilians shot for searching for medical help and food, the stench of rotting people everywhere in palestine. never again? ha right now its going on. palestinian and israeli people are suffering because of their governments with the holocaust being used as an excuse. sick.

i saw something on bbc about a rally in the us about israel where a jewish politician spoke up about the suffering going on in palestine and people booed. its really sick. i'm not pro suicide bomber but for real women with children are blowing themselves up. doesn't that say something? not i'm a crazy bitch but rather i feel i can do better for my child by blowing myself up than i can by raising you in this hell hole that israel has created.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by serum
never again? ha right now its going on.

[Brownbread?]

looking at it from thousands of miles away in a sheltered environment miles away from having to worry about suicide bombings or air raids i dont think i have any right to say who's wrong or right because both sides have blood on their hands. you can't go kick your politics to some 19 year old Israeli soldier and tell him that the suicide bomber that killed his mom acts were justified and he should undestand it because of blah blah blah...or tell some Palestinian kid that he shouldn't hate Israel because of blah blah blah. Fact is both sides will hate each other till death. I doubt that if the Palestinians were given their/share of land that there would be peace. Hatred like that cant be erased by money and land. Even though the US and western countries aren't really getting at peace, i dont think alot of Arab countires want to see peace between Israelis and Palestinians. personally, I believe that some Arab countries want to use the Palestinians as a way of getting Israel out of the region and that any extra conflict is good.

Originally posted by BROWNer
and qaddafi.....he doesn't let america push him around
and so they get all pissy pants and blackball him. qaddafi has some great qualities. anyhow...........
.
if you think america is corrupt how can you side with qadahfi?
how can you even try to make him look like a victim?????

[BROWNer]

whatever....
don't believe the hype.
qaddafi is a good example of how the us
blackballs people....look into it.
they blackball whole populations. iran
is another example..the whole 'axis of evil' shit...
and to add to seekings post, iraq was manoevered
to invade kuwait by the cia. thats a war that
was instigated by the us.
its one big chess game.

[Cracked Ass]

Here are the facts of human nature:
-If I grew up in Palestine and was indoctrinated in the religion and culture, I would today be a suicide bomber.
-If I grew up in Israel and was indoctrinated in the religion and culture, I would probably be an Israeli soldier, or at least a Sharon supporter.
-There will be no peace until one side or the other has been exterminated, and that peace, if achieved, will eventually be broken by supporters of and sympathizers with the exterminated group.
-Indoctrinated humans are not capable of choosing relocation over mass murder as a solution to their problems.
-Religion and politics are at the root of all human stupidity, and very little of human progress.
-I can shit talk Israelis and Palestinians for being too dumb to see that they can avoid violence by moving somewhere else in the world instead of insisting on ownership of a strip of desert, yet I live on land that has not in my lifetime ever been disputed, so it seems that I would not know what the fuck I am talking about.

ALL THESE ARE FACTS OF HUMAN NATURE. They are inconsistent and paradoxical. We have always been this way. I say "we" because I am no different. I don't know whether to condemn or forgive the human race on any given day.

[Ferris Bueller]

I just wish the USA would stay out of Israel's and Palestine's beef.

[23578]

Originally posted by serum

i saw something on bbc about a rally in the us about israel where a jewish politician spoke up about the suffering going on in palestine and people booed. its really sick. [/b]

there is a pro-palestine rally this weekend i think. i'd go probably, but i'm even poorer, another speeding ticket, there are mad hostels in dc though, so i may look into it. fuck terror.

[blink_ATX]

iran isnt an arab country either

[listen]

here's some more stuff to add to Cracked's list:

The US will continue to support Israel because they can't get shit from Palestine

Many European countries appear to be anit-Israel, but they won't make a move against Israel while the US is on Israel's side

Surrounding Arab nations are not pro-Palestine, only anti-Israel, an important difference

Every person's view on this board is slanted by what there media is telling them. The media has its own bias's so it is impossible to even get a clear view on the attrocities that both sides are committing.

[serum]

whats the most interesting to me is that i watch BBC world news which i feel is damn good journalism. they show both sides, try to get them a bit upset and don't really have a bias. if they did i'd actually say it was a little more for palestine. when i turn to CNN they tend to have more interviews with israeli leaders and never really tear them a new asshole about whats going on now. its true that they will eventually kill each other until they are all dead and with the majority of the men gone from these camps israel might now be successful in doing so.

[23578]

I've been thinking about what Cracked said as well, and I'd have to agree, there just is no way for them to live together. Too much water under the bridge, so to speak. I have to say both sides have humiliated the other enough so that they're capable of doing anything to one another as long as they're in the same territory. Whoever said that they're behaving like children is absolutely right. You have Sharon and the Israelis, all jews sadly born to humility, and you have the suicide bombers who grew up in times where they saw many atrocities committed against thier parents. It's plain to see what human nature is capable of when you look at what's happening. Can I feel sorry for them if I am them?

[23578]

Article-talking points discussion of conflict (http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/commentary/2002/0204israeltalk.html)

[Bar Fly]

oh how quickly the opressed can become the oppressors!

[Mr.LonelyHeart]

Originally posted by Pistol

I trip out on the WASP kids with everything that want something to fight for always wanna stick up for the Palestinians and bash Israel.

Hah. Yeah I trip on that too.
Sure, everyone loves an underdog, but yikes....supporting Palestinian killing of innocent civilians is just too out there for me.

I'm tripping on this whole self-loathing thing going on as well... If you're American then fucking accept the fact, and don't willingly accept blame for the "sins of the fathers".... or the sins of the US government. None of you would be down to see someone you love get murdered because they "occupy stolen land" or are a certain ethnicity or nationality. Come on, people.

[angry xbox]

remove the occupation and quit giving aid to sharom, lets see how that sceneario werks then waht?

[angry xbox]

ahahahhah BUMP

because i won the arguement

[metallix]

whos got nuclear weapons and a suicidal doctrine? the cult leader -

whos your cult leader -

[Born Loser]

Only Ese would start a thread like this. He thinks he's all smart and shit. I got photos of him smoking.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[SPORTO]

..

[KING BLING]

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/images/map.gif

[KING BLING]

http://www.sunspot.net/media/cartoon/2002-10/4965804.gif

[Dawood]

There is no Isreal, just occupied palestine.

[SF1]

Fuck Isreal.

[isor357]

Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies and is hated by every arab nation. This includes the whole middle east as well as north Africa. Israel has a large palestinian population of sworn enemies. Life in Israel is very uncertain. There have been so many suicide bombings over the last few years. In 67' they fought a war against Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt and won. Israel has nuclear weapons and very well equipt arsenel. We give them our technology. In the past America has had to step in to keep Israel from blowing Iraq into hell.(heaven forbid) Even as Iraq was hurling SCUDs into Israel. Young Israelis are required to serve in the armed forces. The Israeli Mossad is like the CIA but with fucking huge nuts. Considering all of what has happened to Jewish people across the diaspora they deserve a homeland. Israel is where Jewish people are said to have originated and is therefor a suitable place. If the Jews decided to wipe out the Palestinians i wouldnt blame them for a second. Fuck palestinians and islam. Not that Palestinians havnt had a rough go of it. When immigration really picked up after 1946 the Jews took everything from the Palestinian and herded them into concentration camps.
I perfer jews over arabs. Jewish girls are easy and arab girls are disrespectful and loud

[KING BLING]

Originally posted by isor357@Oct 31 2005, 10:26 PM
Considering all of what has happened to Jewish people across the diaspora they deserve a homeland. Israel is where Jewish people are said to have originated and is therefor a suitable place. If the Jews decided to wipe out the Palestinians i wouldnt blame them for a second. Fuck palestinians and islam. Not that Palestinians havnt had a rough go of it. When immigration really picked up after 1946 the Jews took everything from the Palestinian and herded them into concentration camps.
I perfer jews over arabs. Jewish girls are easy and arab girls are disrespectful and loud
Quoted post



I started to counter your ideas than relaized that it was a waste of time. Can you give me any reasons that we didn't form a Jewish country within the borders of Germany? I'm not sure if it was any less plausable than displacing an entire country of Palestenians...anything to offer on the subject?

[isor357]

really whats there to disagree with. ill humor you. Before the second world war and under the dirrective of the Balfour declaration the Jews were already beginning to populate Palestine. It was a British territory and the British agreed to allow the Jews a homeland in Palestine. They had anscestral ties to the region. This is nearly indisputable. They were there first. There was also talk of a Jewish homeland in South America. I think it was Argentina but why put them in South America and displace South Americans when you can put them in Palestine the place that they want to be. Its pretty clear that no country wants a large jewish population. During and just before the Holocaust no country would open its doors for Jewish immigrants. The British even imposed late immigration restrictions on Palestine. Then 6 million were killed. Its just my opinion that this small slice of the middle east is not too big a deal. More than half of it is desert anyways. I have long been impressed by Israel's defense capibility. I dont care for islam but if it makes people happy i dont care. Im just not too down with all the suicide bombings, terrorism, and jihad. I also think that when Israel was getting missles hurled into it by Iraq we should have let them take care of the problem. Israel has already fought wars against the Arab nations and won. Impressive victories. Arab girls really are obnoxious. Dont take my word for it. Go seek out a group of them and find out for yourself. I almost dont blame arab men for being such fuckers. Its probably because they have to listen to their women all the time. It would make me sour too. Jewish girls are easy. And if you dont know now you know

As for a Jewish state in Germany. I never really thought about that. I doubt the jews wanted a homeland in Germany and im sure the Germans didnt either. Anyways who cares about Palestinians. They are lucky the Israelis have allowed them what they have.

[!@#$%]

merging..

use the search function fools

[Dawood]

Originally posted by isor357@Nov 1 2005, 06:26 AM
Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies and is hated by every arab nation. This includes the whole middle east as well as north Africa. Israel has a large palestinian population of sworn enemies. Life in Israel is very uncertain. There have been so many suicide bombings over the last few years. In 67' they fought a war against Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt and won. Israel has nuclear weapons and very well equipt arsenel. We give them our technology. In the past America has had to step in to keep Israel from blowing Iraq into hell.(heaven forbid) Even as Iraq was hurling SCUDs into Israel. Young Israelis are required to serve in the armed forces. The Israeli Mossad is like the CIA but with fucking huge nuts. Considering all of what has happened to Jewish people across the diaspora they deserve a homeland. Israel is where Jewish people are said to have originated and is therefor a suitable place. If the Jews decided to wipe out the Palestinians i wouldnt blame them for a second. Fuck palestinians and islam. Not that Palestinians havnt had a rough go of it. When immigration really picked up after 1946 the Jews took everything from the Palestinian and herded them into concentration camps.
I perfer jews over arabs. Jewish girls are easy and arab girls are disrespectful and loud
Quoted post


So your preference of jews over Arabs originates from your liking of easy Jew floozies, sounds like a solid logic....so intellegent.

[dumy]

zing!

[isor357]

So your preference of jews over Arabs originates from your liking of easy Jew floozies, sounds like a solid logic....so intellegent.
Quoted post
[/quote]

not that it really matters but within the last year i took a 400 level course on the arab israeli conflict and 3 classes on the holocaust. I probably know more about the topic than most of the put together. And just to clear up your little shitfit i like all easy floozies. Black, brown and especially yellow. My highschool was probaly 30% arab 30% jewish and 30% black. I fell into the 10% white category. I have seen how races and religious groups act and im speaking under purely objective pretences. Dont get it twisted. Im not a huge bigot. My fiance is korean. My best mate is black. I have probably had more ethnic friends than white ones. I work with arab kids and we get along great. I dont sugarcoat my opinions around them and they give me shit on the regular. Thats not to say that we dont get along. Rest assured that i could think you into a steamy pile of shit

[Dawood]

thats it.... It's a wrap, you are the man isor.....all that and a bag of chips.

[KING BLING]

I had wanted to write this than stopped because you're not worth it but the above paragraph was essentially the equivalent to someone saying "its okay that I said that racist remark, some of my best friends are black." no matter what you have read or what classes you attend, your "knowledge" of the conflict and the opinions you formed have little to do with eachother in your presentation. Everything you stated regarding your opinion is either not supported or is based on ridiculously acute experiences you've had in your small life. I don't know where to start - for one, you seemt o beleive your experience with Americanized versions of these two cultures is anything like the people in the Middle East. Secondly, Jews and Palestinians both have histories in the region older than our countries whole history - the logic used there would uproot half of the borders drawn today throughout the world, including the United States. Also, your history of the region ignores one small fact - the British controlled Palestine, but had no historical right to determine who should live there. Because they chose to make Israel what is does not by default make it right. And "Fuck Islam" - dude, you're way off and missing a very strong religions many strong points over what it is used for by extremists. Anyways, I can't go on and argue with you because you don't really say anything concrete, just inflamatory statements surrounded by facts I knew without putting down money on classes...I'm gonna go call my best friend who is black and tell him that at the end of the day I don't respect him enough to allow my arguments to rest on there own merits and instead I opted to use our friendship and his race to win an argument. I'm sure he'll appreciate being my "black friend' when I need him to be, but my normal friend when no one else is around...

[Dawood]

^^^ yeah, that just about pulls his card.

[isor357]

you talk all the shit you want and at the end of the day yer still wrong. I am all that and a bag of chips. my IQ far exceeds what is concidered normal. I work 2 jobs. Im getting a 3.8 and taking very difficult classes. My girlfriend IS HOT ASIAN AND could be a model. Im young. attractive and i drive a LANCER EVO. My apartment is pretty hooked up to. With the plazma the the 64 gallon salt water fish tank. My mind is clear enought to realize that Islam is a piece of shit. MY BURNERS ARE SICK TOO. .And i dont pray to mecca 3 times a day.. Someday i will fuck some islamist up for praying

[MAR]

Originally posted by isor357@Nov 1 2005, 10:57 AM
There was also talk of a Jewish homeland in South America. I think it was Argentina but why put them in South America and displace South Americans when you can put them in Palestine the place that they want to be.
Quoted post



Actually it was Africa, Uganda to be precise. Hertzel said "No" and that was the end of that. Oh and in general its not very smart to end a nice agument with I hate whom ever. It just makes you look ignorant regarless of how solid your agument is.

[Dawood]

Originally posted by isor357@Nov 4 2005, 05:28 AM
you talk all the shit you want and at the end of the day yer still wrong. I am all that and a bag of chips. my IQ far exceeds what is concidered normal. I work 2 jobs. Im getting a 3.8 and taking very difficult classes. My girlfriend IS HOT ASIAN AND could be a model. Im young. attractive and i drive a LANCER EVO. My apartment is pretty hooked up to. With the plazma the the 64 gallon salt water fish tank. My mind is clear enought to realize that Islam is a piece of shit. MY BURNERS ARE SICK TOO. .And i dont pray to mecca 3 times a day.. Someday i will fuck some islamist up for praying
Quoted post


I don't think I even have to say anything. I mean you were doing better when other people were pulling your card, now youre pulling your own card you yuppie sucker. By the way Mr. Hi IQ, your'e a sucker and you are talking to a grown man with kids and a wife, And I told somebody before on this site that you can joke all you want , but there are 2 things I don't joke about , My religion and my family, So If you are making jokes , then they are not funny , If you are serious , then you are more of a lowlife than I thought. Anyway, some words of advice from your elder, Have some respect for people and they will respect you, Your 2 jobs , your Lancer and your Asian girl don't make you special because one day you'll probably get canned for thinking you are too special, your lancer will blow a head gasket and Your Girl will get old and ugly and you will be left with nothing to brag about, then you'll slip into depression and overdose on OC's becuase you can't handle the reality of not being the Big Kahuna you used to think you were. You should humble yourself a little and learn how to show people respect because mark my words , If you keep that materialistic psuedo important 3.8 toughguy outlook on life, you will crash and burn hard one day. Honestly, man, in that post you made yourself look so out of touch with reality and in a boogie nights fantasy world that I had to re read it to see if you were joking.

[isor357]

and 1 more thing. I shit bigger than you

[isor357]

i would wipe my ass with your koran and fuck your daughters. That being said. If you dont like what i gots to say just ignore my posts. Nowhere is it stated that you need to pay any attention to me

[Dawood]

oh, the internet, I would love for you to say that to my face you spineless faggot!

[!@#$%]

isor, yeah you're right, you shit huge, out of your brain, apparently
your 'argument' has dissolved into a hate rant, and it won't be tolerated.

let's NOT PLAY INTO THIS (ahem..dawood)
dude just wants to get a rise out of you
apparently his big screen and hot bitch aren't enough to keep him entertained.

[Dawood]

Its ok symbols, I'm done with him, not only is he a disrespectful spineless coward. he is a liar too. its amazing how he was down to ramen noodles and jobless in September, but now in November he is big balling.
what a sucker.

QUOTE FROM ISOR ON THE 'EARN LESS' THREAD
"im not joking. I look around my college campus and i see women. I would conclude that its probably around 65-70% female. The bad news is that they are mostly unattractive. I been pouring through the papers and discovered that unless you have experience in one of the skilled trades you are basically fucked. Furthermore. why would i apprentice to do some shit when im spending all this time and money to go to school for a "carreer" the shit that i would perfer to do is geared towards females or it pays minimum wage. I would far rather sit on my ass and type and answer phones or clean houses than apprentice to be a plumber up to my knees in mud digging trenches at 7 in the morning for $9 an hour. Either that or its part time. Even if you find a job doing some manual labor and make decent $ its hardly enough to pay bill let alone save. Some friends of mine graduated before me and none of them have even put their degrees to use. I know way too many waiters and waitresses with college degrees. I cant even find a punk ass resturaunt job. Sorry about the complaining. Im beginning to feel like shit is hopeless. I want to move to costa rica and grow bananas and drugs.

Im at a fucking loss 12oz. I dont have a next move. Im going down on the ramen noodle 5 oclock vodka i hope my car dont break down diet.

Anybody with a suggetion besides kill yourself or sell rock is more than welcome to fire away. a job solution. anybody like their job? winning lotto numbers."




I'm still investigating him though

[KING BLING]

Talking much about oneself can also be a means to conceal oneself.
-Nietzsche

[Dawood]

wow,, this thread took a funny twist back in september, It's a trip to go back and read what you wrote 6 months ago. It looks like Isor had nothing else to say after all that.

anyway. I found a website that may be useful in bringing this discussion back up.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[MAR]

The site is mearly a propaganda tool ment to mislead and misguide people who have little knowlage on the subject of the conflict. It is full of inaccuracies and misleading satistics.

[Dawood]

ha, ha ...Mar..A.K.A Quick draw Mcgraw...somehow I knew you'd be the first to respond to that and I knew you'd respond exactly like that.
Just consider. Every story has 3 sides.
this side / that side and the right side.

[MAR]

ha, ha ...Mar..A.K.A Quick draw Mcgraw...somehow I knew you'd be the first to respond to that and I knew you'd respond exactly like that.
Just consider. Every story has 3 sides.
this side / that side and the right side.

I have some sort of sixth sense about this stuff.

[loose leaf]

I'm not seeing any distortions on that website. Those are facts and figures I've seen quoted worldwide from a variety of sources. This is the general consensus on the issue.

[MAR]

read the subjects and fine print, if you know enough about the issue some things should stick out like a sore thumb.

[Dawood]

when you say "if you know enough about the issue" what do you mean? By that do you mean know what Jews say about the issue? Be specific, what's sticking out like a sore thumb?

[yumone]

holy shit i cannot believe how much of a maggot isor is. its crazy how superior i can feel compared to someone just by reading their posts on the internet. im seriiously smirking right now about how low as dirt you are isor. a pathetic little faggot with a chip on your shoulder.

[MAR]

ugg....I dont want to get into this now....or really at all.....heres a few quick examples and then Im going to bed:

1. It is impossible to know how many palestinians have been killed in israel because the red cresent in israel has been known to inflate numbers. Not to mention they fail to give the reasons of death. Unlike the suicide bombers israelis dont kill people at random.

2.UN resolutions targetin the israelis and palestinians- Frankly if you read them and have a knowlage of the history behind them alot of them seem insignificant and sometimes silly.

3.Political prisoners and detaines- First off there have been civilains and soldiers kidnapped but since the palestinian people arent a governing body they cant hold them prisoner. Instead they end up dead on the side of the road or in a cave.

4.Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
"0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000." Where it gets tricky is the palestinian government cannot demolish homes in Israel. What It fails to include is the number of jewish homes that have been demolished for being on illegal land and such. Not to mention when Israelis destroy palestinian homes it is because they are being used for smuggling weapons into israel.

5.New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)
"60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements." The dates are rather conveniant for a fairly well updated site. Aza and gush katif would be the reason for the laziness in the update.

[yumone]

1. Unlike the suicide bombers israelis dont kill people at random.


im sorry but that is a complete load of bullshit there are so many well documented examples of israel bombing palestinians and shooting little girls etc.

but hey im sure a lot of palestinians would love to indiscriminately bomb israel too they jsut dont have the resources beyond suicide bombings

[MAR]

show me proof.

[Smart]

C'mon Mar, he's gonna find dozens of stories about 'collateral damage' from the decades old 'missle attack' tactic... you don't really have a leg to stand on with the 'show me proof' argument... I thought you were better than that.

[MAR]

You got to trust me on this Smart. I've been doing this for years. Its very repetative.

Anyhow, I seriously doubt that anyone will be able to find an example of a random murder by the Israeli military. Even the missle attacks arent random. They are targeted at high level terrorists that would be otherwise difficult to take out. The israelis take special precausions to ensure that there is a minimal amount of deaths when they conduct such attacks. Alot military deaths since 2000 have been because the Israelis insist on going door to door when hunting down terrrorists instead of bombing the hell out of that area in order to ensure that there are minimal civilian deaths.

[Smart]

True, the Israelis do invest a ton of 'intelligence' into their missle attacks. I'm not suggesting that they don't but I'm not forgetting things like the missle attack on the car that also killed one of the bad guy's kids. There have been apartment buildings targeted which contained 'innocent' families as well as bad guys.

I don't really have much sympathy for these 'innocents' but they do exist, or they did before their deaths. I have mostly just noted these things as life passes me by. I hear these things on the news sometimes and I think 'damn, shame about that, not gonna be a great press day for the Israelis... guess they did get some PLO types too...'

I will say that I have NEVER heard of Israelis shooting little girls.

[Dawood]

http://www.through-the-eyes.org.uk/occupation/israeli-soldier-and-terrified-children_lrg.jpg

it looks like this nice Isreali soldier is teaching the kids how to hold the gun.
what a nice guy!

http://argentina.indymedia.org/uploads/2004/11/israeli_soldiers_are_really_nice_guys_.jpg

and here, it looks like they're taking this nice boy to see a movie or get an
ice cream.

http://alsaher.com/boycott/images/sofa.jpg
how sweet, the Isreali soldiers showed these kids what a nice
job a few rockets can do on the house. NIce couch !


http://alsaher.com/boycott/images/bush2.jpg
these boys seem to be relaying a message of some sort to a
nice fellow named "bush".

http://alsaher.com/boycott/images/bushsharon.jpg

Grandpa Ariel is trying out his new hanshake buzzer on Uncle George.
what a great bunch.

[Smart]

So... why does that kid have a T-shirt on his head? Is that the style there?

[Dawood]

I was wondering the same thing. at first I thought maybe he was wearing it and they pulled it over his head but he has a jacket on. then I figured they were blindfolding him with it or something.

[Smart]

I was being facetious... that's the traditional garb of a rock thrower, from Ireland to Israel and all points between.

They scared the piss out of him too!

[MY ROTTING LIVER]

ugg....I don't want to get into this now....or really at all.....heres a few quick examples and then I'm going to bed:

1. It is impossible to know how many Palestinians have been killed in Israel because the red cresent in israel has been known to inflate numbers. Not to mention they fail to give the reasons of death. Unlike the suicide bombers israelis dont kill people at random.

2.UN resolutions targetin the israelis and palestinians- Frankly if you read them and have a knowlage of the history behind them alot of them seem insignificant and sometimes silly.

3.Political prisoners and detaines- First off there have been civilains and soldiers kidnapped but since the palestinian people arent a governing body they cant hold them prisoner. Instead they end up dead on the side of the road or in a cave.

4.Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
"0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000." Where it gets tricky is the palestinian government cannot demolish homes in Israel. What It fails to include is the number of jewish homes that have been demolished for being on illegal land and such. Not to mention when Israelis destroy palestinian homes it is because they are being used for smuggling weapons into israel.

5.New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)
"60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements." The dates are rather conveniant for a fairly well updated site. Aza and gush katif would be the reason for the laziness in the update.

Nope...

1) http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza <Hi Smart>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915725,00.html An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist.

2) Of course they are silly - nothing significant could come out of the UN without the US stamp of approval (literally, we veto anything critical of Israel - http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/), though we can circumvent it apparently. I'm glad Smart respects you because this point seemed like you just talking - what were you trying to say?

3) The Palestinian government isn't a government? You are just another version of ISOR - you're a hack. You'll note that (assuming you read the news) America is now withholding funds from Palestine because Hamas was elected to run, oh I don't know, the country? Now beyond this, note we decided to withhold, which means we provided funding to some organization previously and I'm sure we would give million dollar hand outs to a group of Arab guys trying to blow up Israel with no organization or officiating body. Furthermore, in regards to your claim that all the Palestinians do is shoot people because they can't be bothered with jails or ethical treatment (after they were treated so good too) - why don't YOU back that up, because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it. In fact it's kind of like those secret jails we have...wait

4) http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-02-01-israel-outpost_x.htm "Thousands of Israeli troops and police demolished part of the illegal West Bank outpost of Amona on Wednesday, facing stiff resistance that left more than 200 Jewish settlers and troops wounded." Israel destroys Israeli homes, there is a divide there much like one we have here between rural and urban populations. When Sharon began implementing his plan, Israeli soldiers were clearing out settlements. Of course Palestinians can't "demolish" shit - if they control an area it's because it was given to them and they would rather live in the homes. The reason I bring this up is how completely uninformed your rhetoric is...

5) http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0806-03.htm But despite similar promises, and televised images of Israeli soldiers wrestling with Jewish settlers to dismantle outposts, settlements continue to expand, threatening peace efforts. According to the Israeli nonprofit Peace Now, since the Bush administration's "road map" to peace was launched, twenty two outposts have been dismantled, but an equal number of new ones built. And just after his White House visit, Sharon's government announced plans to build new settlement housing in Gaza.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2119356
The winding route of this first phase of the plan traps 15 Palestinian villages with 13,600 residents between the Green Line and the barrier. These unfortunates are prohibited from entering Israel to the west, and physically barred from reaching their lands, businesses and extended families in their West Bank hinterland to the east. A further 30,000 Palestinian farmers who live on the east side of the barrier are now cut off from their orchards, groves and farms on the western side.





...I think the people you've been "doing this for years" with are likely not very interested or informed or even intelligent, because most of what you said is garbage and provided no facts - you expected credibility you don't have from what I can tell. You're not an expert and your facts don't hold up. They should rename this thread "King Bling / My Rotting Liver Pulls Cards"

[yumone]

its cool mar i understand that you have ties to israel and i dont expect to change your opinion on an internet forum. but trying to say that israel hasnt indiscriminately killed palestinians is like holocaust denial. hey palestinians have indiscriminately killed plenty of israelis too, no ones trying to deny that, so why cant you just accept the obvious and move on with other reasoning and arguments as to why israel might be partly justified in its actions or something like that instead of blankly trying to say it doesnt happen when it most certainly does.

[Smart]

right on MRL, the thing I found most disturbing about that story... Obviously that was written right after the incedent and during the investigation, so I did some research trying to find out the eventual outcome... and there seems to have been anything additional. I would say that this was the result of one bloodthirsty soldier but the lack of legal retribution is unsettling.

One site I visited claimed that 649 children were killed during 2000-2004 in a deliberate attempt to intimidate Palestinians but I have no verification on that fact. Another site suggested that Palestinians diliberately put the children in dangerous situations so they could judge how close they could approach an installation.

The use of children as fodder during the Iran-Iraq war is a relatively well documented fact so, there may be something to that argument as well. I'm not trying to take sides but both those arguments are out there.

Additionally, one of my friends was in Somalia, his team was sent in to resecure that intersection you may have seen in Blackhawk Down. He said almost every male from around 12 and older carried an AK. One day we happened to be talking about the whole scene over there and he said how he thanked God he never had to shoot one of those kids but he also assured me that he would have if he had to.

So, kids are combatants too... not that little girl though.

[MAR]

Nope...

1) http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza <Hi Smart>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915725,00.html An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist.

Do some reaserch on the subjects.
Rachael Corrie:
http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

Iman Darweesh Al Hams:
According to an investigation by the IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF)'s Southern Front Command, soldiers spotted a figure carrying a bag at 0700 on the morning of October 5, as it approached the IDF Girit outpost along the Philadelphi Road in the Tel Sultan neighborhood of Rafah, an area allegedly banned to Palestinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian) by Israeli military authorities. Suspecting that the bag contained a bomb, soldiers fired and hit the figure. "Captain R", and members of his unit left the army post to "defuse the threat," only to discover that the threat was a young schoolgirl, And the bag was later found to contain only schoolbooks.
Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) soldiers from the platoon testified that the commander knowingly shot the girl in the head at close range and then emptied his magazine of bullets into her body to "confirm the kill." One of the soldiers was quoted as saying:
"We saw her from a distance of 70 meters. She was fired at and shot from the outpost. She tried to flee but was wounded badly. I understand she was dead. The commander walked toward her, he shot her with two additional bullets before returning to the outpost. Then he returned to the girl, put his weapon on automatic and -- ignoring our objections on the walkie-talkie – emptied his entire magazine into her body." Another soldier reportedly testified, "Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl. How can anyone spray a girl from close range… The commander was hot for a long time to take out Arab and shot the girl to relieve pressure."
It was revealed later that soldiers who had testified about "Captain R" had lied to the investigators in order to frame their commander "because he was a tough commander and often handed out harsh punishments . They revealed that other soldiers had initially taken part in the shooting of Iman al-Hams, not just their commander, and that the commander had not, as reported earlier, shot the girl from close range. Said one soldier to Ma'ariv:
"After we fired, the platoon commander went out to make sure she was dead. He fired only two bullets at her from a relatively distant point, fearing she was wearing a bomb belt. He then headed back to the outpost, but suddenly turned around and fired a long burst. I saw where the body was, and in which direction he fired. It wasn't even close [to the girl]. He fired towards Rafiah, in response to a burst of fire..." On March 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_6), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005), a report in the Israeli daily "Yediot Aharonot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yediot_Aharonot)" entitled "The video of the killing: Was the girl alone?" stated that the video tape from the event revealed a Palestinian man about 50 meters from the girl, walking away from the scene toward the houses of Rafah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah). "Captain R"'s lawyer claimed it was a militant, who had probably sent the girl to the "No man's land" as a decoy or bait.On November 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_15), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005) a military tribunal acquitted Captain R and cleared him from all the charges against him. The court revealed that the accusations that he "comfirmed kill" on the girl were based on false testimonies and a video that show suspicious Palestinian figure near the girl, probably the terrorist who sent her.

I'm not saying I'm glad she's dead but I completely understand why it happened.

2) Of course they are silly - nothing significant could come out of the UN without the US stamp of approval (literally, we veto anything critical of Israel - http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/), though we can circumvent it apparently. I'm glad Smart respects you because this point seemed like you just talking - what were you trying to say?

Basicly that the un resolutions tend to look uninformed after time passes (iraq's nucleur powerplant for example).

3) The Palestinian government isn't a government? You are just another version of ISOR - you're a hack. You'll note that (assuming you read the news) America is now withholding funds from Palestine because Hamas was elected to run, oh I don't know, the country? Now beyond this, note we decided to withhold, which means we provided funding to some organization previously and I'm sure we would give million dollar hand outs to a group of Arab guys trying to blow up Israel with no organization or officiating body. Furthermore, in regards to your claim that all the Palestinians do is shoot people because they can't be bothered with jails or ethical treatment (after they were treated so good too) - why don't YOU back that up, because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it. In fact it's kind of like those secret jails we have...wait

The palestinians lack soverinty therefore in my oppinion their goverment is basic at best.

"because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it." maybe so but they did vote for hamas which tells you something about their oppinion on terrorism.

4) http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-02-01-israel-outpost_x.htm "Thousands of Israeli troops and police demolished part of the illegal West Bank outpost of Amona on Wednesday, facing stiff resistance that left more than 200 Jewish settlers and troops wounded." Israel destroys Israeli homes, there is a divide there much like one we have here between rural and urban populations. When Sharon began implementing his plan, Israeli soldiers were clearing out settlements. Of course Palestinians can't "demolish" shit - if they control an area it's because it was given to them and they would rather live in the homes. The reason I bring this up is how completely uninformed your rhetoric is...

This paragraph doesnt even make sense...

5) http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0806-03.htm But despite similar promises, and televised images of Israeli soldiers wrestling with Jewish settlers to dismantle outposts, settlements continue to expand, threatening peace efforts. According to the Israeli nonprofit Peace Now, since the Bush administration's "road map" to peace was launched, twenty two outposts have been dismantled, but an equal number of new ones built. And just after his White House visit, Sharon's government announced plans to build new settlement housing in Gaza.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2119356
The winding route of this first phase of the plan traps 15 Palestinian villages with 13,600 residents between the Green Line and the barrier. These unfortunates are prohibited from entering Israel to the west, and physically barred from reaching their lands, businesses and extended families in their West Bank hinterland to the east. A further 30,000 Palestinian farmers who live on the east side of the barrier are now cut off from their orchards, groves and farms on the western side.

Where were they built? Thats important.

As far as the security wall. Because of it Israels main sorce of vegetables (Gush katif) were lost. Everyone took a loss.


...I think the people you've been "doing this for years" with are likely not very interested or informed or even intelligent, because most of what you said is garbage and provided no facts - you expected credibility you don't have from what I can tell. You're not an expert and your facts don't hold up. They should rename this thread "King Bling / My Rotting Liver Pulls Cards"

You talk to much.



Look man as you may have noticed I've decided to take a sabbatical from this site so I can focus on my own work but Im willing to take a few minutes to argue with you. Just because i do this alot doesnt mean i dont care anymore. I still read Arab newspapers daily, once in a while I read sermons given in mosques and Israeli papers and news broadcasts too. I care and thats why I willing to argue with you.

[loose leaf]

And using bombs and rockets in "assassination" attacks is about as tactical as using an elephant gun to swat a fly. Why is it so hard for you to admit that both sides are guilty of commiting heinous hate crimes on each other?

[yumone]

please forgive me if i dont believe that that poor schoolgirl was sent into no mans land and subsequently shot because of 'a terrorist' . its fucking bullshit wow some guy was walking within 50 metres of the incident shit he msut have been a terrorist that sent the girl in there thats some damn fine deductive reasoning. those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief, its like bam throw the word terrrorist into the equation and snap its no longer anyones fault. i also feel sorry for the israeli soldiers who tried to do the right thing afterwards and give up the son of a bitch that sadistically executed her, its a pity they were silenced to avoid public outcry and give the military a bad name.

[KaBar2]

Eventually, you guys are going to tire of endlessly debating this bullshit and do an independent investigation of all this crap and you'll probably come to some clearer understanding about it.

You will have to go way back in history to understand the problems we are facing with Israel's aggression and entitled attitude, the Palestinian's hatred of the Jews, and the seemingly inexplicable, bizarre support of Israel by the United States.

I read that the U.S. has given Israel 61 TRILLION DOLLARS since 1948.

Holy shit, that's a lot of money.

WHY WOULD WE DO THAT? Seek the answer.

[Nekro]

Sixty one trillion dollars? Did you leave a decimal point out?

[MAR]

The annual Palestinian budget is about USD 1.9 billion. The USD 1.3 billion in foreign aid last year accounted for 32 percent of Palestinian gross domestic product, making Palestinians the biggest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world.

Kabar2: If you go back and do your own independent study Im sure you will understand Israels sense of "entitlement" more. Just read straight history books.

yumone: I assure you living in israel is nothing like america. The constant threat of terrorism make people very edgy. It doesnt help that some of the terrorists feel life has little value and are willing to sacrifice it for what they feel is a greater cause. The constant threat of terrorism and use of young children as weapons makes military peacekeeping efforts that much harder. Trust me I have a good friend who is a tank commander who is haunted by the fact that he had to shoot a boy who had aimed a sholder rocket at his tank.

"those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief"

Do you mean the Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas), Palestinian Islamic Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad), Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah)'s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs_Brigades), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine_-_General_Command), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine), and the Abu Nidal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal) Organization?

[Dawood]

The Jews attitude of entitlement comes from a beleif that they are God's chosen people and everybody else are basically dogs. ok, Mar, GO!

I didn't say that as a Judaism expert, but as a person who understands very little about judaism so keep in mind I don't mind being wrong.
Mar, also, I was trying to find an authentic talmud site but I kept finding all these beleifnet type sites that say Judaism should change and that Judaism is evolving etc. can you give me a link to the nitty gritty talmud teachings where they say it's ok to lie to a gentile and hurt him and mess up his plans and to charge him interest etc. etc. ?
I found some sites with this stuff , but it seems to be sites only put up by christians trying to expose judaism and that stuff can't be too objective, so, where's the good stuff?

[MAR]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.

[yumone]

yumone: I assure you living in israel is nothing like america. The constant threat of terrorism make people very edgy. It doesnt help that some of the terrorists feel life has little value and are willing to sacrifice it for what they feel is a greater cause. The constant threat of terrorism and use of young children as weapons makes military peacekeeping efforts that much harder. Trust me I have a good friend who is a tank commander who is haunted by the fact that he had to shoot a boy who had aimed a sholder rocket at his tank.

"those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief"

Do you mean the Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas), Palestinian Islamic Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad), Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah)'s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs_Brigades), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine_-_General_Command), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine), and the Abu Nidal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal) Organization?
i'm not an american im an australian, the closest thing weve had to a terrorist attack was some indonesian arseholes blowing up a club in indonesia where some australians were at, yet for some reason our government has enacted anti terror legislation to keep us all safe and secure and which has helped them arrest a lot of muslims with minimal evidence (just for context im not a muslim and the relationship between muslims and the rest of australian society is a very precarious one and has been so for a long time before terrrorism due to ethnic gang violence etc.). i do understand that in israel the threat of there beign an actual real deal terrorist about to kill you is a fact and a very disconcerting one at that. i just cant stand it that these days a person in a percieved position of power can just drop the word 'terrorist' and everyone gives him a blank cheque without thinknig once let alone twice.just out of interest are you an israeli living in israel or an american or what?

[MAR]

american. I lived their for a few years but came back to the states, begrudginly, for college when I finish im moving back.

I understand your concern. I feel what america's doing in gitmo has gotten out of hand, and all in the name of terrorism.

[Dawood]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.

I was actually messing with you. Just a freindly Jab .
I was actually hoping you'd give me a little more to play with, but I guess I'll have to
find it myself. psssht.

[Nekro]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.The whole fucking premise of judaism is that the people of israel are god's chosen people. What part of "chosen people of israel" don't you understand?

[MAR]

i dont think that was directed at me but even so I want to clarify something. Just because the jews are the chosen people doesnt mean they can take advantage of the other nations. Jews are supposed to be a "light unto the nations", an example for the other nations to follow. Therefore if the jews act improperly* they are not walking in the way of G-d. So if a jew cheats a gentile they have sinned, and have caused an embaresment before G-d.


*This is not a invitation for pro-palestinians to take a jab at what they view as a injustice done to their people.

[Nekro]

Basically the jews are douchebags. So are the palestinians. Neither justifies the other. They're just going to have to keep killing each other until they can work some shit out.

[MAR]

Basically the jews are douchebags. So are the palestinians. Neither justifies the other. They're just going to have to keep killing each other until they can work some shit out.

Keep making blanket statements I hear it will get you far in life.

[Dawood]

i dont think that was directed at me but even so I want to clarify something. Just because the jews are the chosen people doesnt mean they can take advantage of the other nations. Jews are supposed to be a "light unto the nations", an example for the other nations to follow. Therefore if the jews act improperly* they are not walking in the way of G-d. So if a jew cheats a gentile they have sinned, and have caused an embaresment before G-d.


*This is not a invitation for pro-palestinians to take a jab at what they view as a injustice done to their people.


just in case you mistakenly thought I was pro-palestianian, then let me clear that up for you.
I'm not Pro-Palestianian. I am pro-submission to the will of the creator (i.e. Islam) Palestinians as a group do a lot of things that I personally, and my religion disagree with so I could never say I'm "pro-palestianian". Because palestinians are right sometimes and theyre wrong sometimes, so whatever. I'm Italian and I live in America. Palestine is not my biggest concern. Although if you throw into the equation a palestianian MUSLIM being killed unjustly, well, then that changes the whole story. To me the muslim's blood is more sacred than the kaaba in mecca.
I'm glad you say that Jews are not allowed by Judaism to cheat gentiles. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that all Jews feel that way. I've spent a lot of time in Brooklyn. I know Jews.

[Smart]

Yeah, it's well known that the only people cheating gentiles in Brooklyn are Jews. It's been that way since the 1920's.

[The Man with the Answers]

as an irish cathloic I hate both kikes and wops, they both have the negroid blood

[MAR]

I've spent a lot of time in Brooklyn. I know Jews.

If you think brooklyn is jews, you dont know jews. American Judaism is pretty lame.

Anyhow its always interesting to get an insight on your view of things. I like our chats.

[Dawood]

If you think brooklyn is jews, you dont know jews. American Judaism is pretty lame.

Anyhow its always interesting to get an insight on your view of things. I like our chats.


thanks.

I thought Jews were pretty deep on the Eastern Pkwy In brooklyn. I used to see them all secret serviced out around there in their black Yukons with their black suits and hats. White shirts and yamakas. I'd see them talking on their CB's looking at us like we had a bomb or something. ha,ha...they don't call it Jew York for nothing, Mar.

nah, seriously...tell me about real Judaism and why Jews don't accept Muhammad. (peace be upon him) Don't you know he was mentioned in the Torah?

[yumone]

i hate people who source any religious scipture to make a point its pretty much the lamest most impotent addition to any argument

[Smart]

...they don't call it Jew York for nothing...

Nobody I knows calls it that, they call it Hymietown...
http://www.mickeykaplanfineart.com/holocausts/small/I-Love-Hymietown.jpg

[dailycrunch]

True. yums comment

[MAR]

yo dawood I'm moving this conversation to the creator thread.

[Dawood]

i hate people who source any religious scipture to make a point its pretty much the lamest most impotent addition to any argument


well, that is unless you are talking about religion...:rolleyes:

[fermentor666]

What about all the gentiles that cheat the jews? Or enslave and burn them.

People think they know everything about something that is so far away from them that they have never breathed. If people really want to know what it's like to be an Israeli or a Palestinian, they should go over there and see for themselves, instead of making pre-judgments about entire populations. I think for someone to say that the Israelis are all about shooting little girls and boys would have to take a look at the soldiers of their own country and ask themselves if those soldiers always speak for them. That would have to be the same said of those who think that all of the Palestinians are all about blowing up a dozen people while they get something to eat. The ones who are committing the violence are often the ones who are in the minority within their division. There may be injustice, but it will not be solved through bloodshed or the annihilation of a race. I think, ese, that you have some serious misconceptions about the rest of the world.

[fermentor666]

And also, keep in mind that for many, the military is a way to escape poverty. They may not want to be blowing up Palestinian children or shooting RPGs across the Israeli border, but it's the only way they will be able to eat on a daily basis. And most of Hamas and their ilk are getting paid for what they do. Just like the Americans over in Iraq who signed up for the military in 1999 or 2000 and now have to spend their days shooting at anything that moves. Or the ones that signed up thinking they were going to go on a special mission to take down Osama Bin Ladin and are instead fighting a completely unrelated oil and religious war. Because, Bush believes he was chosen by "god" and everyone else is a dog. This much is recorded fact.

[Smart]

In Israel, everybody is in the Army. Mandatory conscription.

[fermentor666]

Including minorities. It's an even more extreme example of the fact that a lot of those soldiers had no choice and by default you can be sure that there are even more of them who do not want to do what they are doing but are forced to do so by a small minority of politicians.

[fermentor666]

Although there is an obvious and first-hand threat with the Palestinians that because it is on such a small-scale, could be compared with the American draft during World War II. Meaning that there may be a mass-mentality of nationalism. But you can be sure that if they had the choice, most of them would rather not be shooting at children who are aiming RPG-Launchers at them. And this being 2006, the horrible lessons of WWII have long-since been absorbed on a mass-concioussness level.

[Smart]

uh, I'm pretty sure there's a non-violent alternative... and I don't think there exists a parallel between the drafts... and I don't understand what 'horrible lesson of WWII' was absorbed before I could understand how that relates to mandatory conscription in Israel...

[yumone]

sorry fermentor 666 but you arent making much sense

[MAR]

I think what fermentor is trying to say is for the average american to make a judgement on the situation in israel without having been there and truly understanding the facts is presumtious and in many ways he is right. Israel and its situation is unlike any other place in the world and I've tried to illustrate that in my arguments.

The military is pretty easy to get out of. All you have to do is say your a stoner or want to kill arabs and they wont take you. Most israelis are proud to go to the military. Children talk about what units the want to be in when they get older but not because they want to kill, rather because they want to defend that small piece of land that they and thier families call home.

[Larry Pubes]

if the average american can't get to israel or palestine to make a judgement, then the avg. american should look at the extensive, official record and come to a clear understanding of how the avg. american's tax dollars continue being spent supporting a violent, brutal occupation.

[Smart]

The average american CAN'T get to Israel? What stops them? Here's some stuff I just grabbed from an MSN article, the numbers are from 2004.

* About 43% of American families spend more than they earn each year.
* Average households carry some $8,000 in credit card debt.

When only 57% of the country is operating 'in the black' then it stands to reason that these are going to be the only ones the option is truly open to... unless the others just want more debt, whch is a decision many make... anyway, if that many people are 'broke' then nobody is going anywhere much I'd imagine but I would also imagine that these are problems of their own creation. Nobody's forcing them to live beyond their means. Conversely, if you wanted to buckle down amd save some money hardcore I think you'd be surprised at the realtively short time it would take to raise the ticket fare to anywhere... Hell, just putting my change in a jar last year got me $512...

[MAR]

if the average american can't get to israel or palestine to make a judgement, then the avg. american should look at the extensive, official record and come to a clear understanding of how the avg. american's tax dollars continue being spent supporting a violent, brutal occupation.

Look Im not saying you cant have an oppinion who am I to stop you? Im saying if you dont view the situation first hand its hard to get a objective oppinion. Thats one of the reasons Im rarely involved in discussions involving forien (sp) politics.


The annual Palestinian budget is about USD 1.9 billion. The USD 1.3 billion in foreign aid last year accounted for 32 percent of Palestinian gross domestic product, making Palestinians the biggest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world.


So really the palestinains were reciving more money, until they were cut-off for electing a terrorist government.

Know this: There is no occupation.

[--->]

How is there no occupation? Isreal in itself is an occupation.

[Larry Pubes]

i'm sayin'...going there doesn't do shit for an outsider in terms of getting some sort of 'real' overview knowledge of the situation dudes. you'd have to live in both places for an extended ass time to grasp any objectiveness. the best you could hope for with this logic is a palestinian living deeply and open minded within israel and it's culture and understanding it from the inside out with that unique perspective, or an israeli doing the same inside palestine. some chump from america visiting for awhile isn't going to do much unless they already have a good, factual overview of the history, in which case the good, factual overview is much more pertinent regardless of actually visiting. but if anyone needs to visit, it would be americans...at least in the hopes they would return home and work to do something about how their own govt is slimey as shit regarding israel.

[Larry Pubes]

there's no occupation....

right..

and i'm connie chung..

[fermentor666]

uh, I'm pretty sure there's a non-violent alternative... and I don't think there exists a parallel between the drafts... and I don't understand what 'horrible lesson of WWII' was absorbed before I could understand how that relates to mandatory conscription in Israel...



I'm talking about how the people might feel, internally. The horrible lessons of WWII are murder, death, carnage, human suffering, destruction of history. This has happened before, yes, but WWII was well-documented and there are many who have lived through it and are still alive. Pictures, movies, television shows, books, documentaries, relatives--all these things can instill the concept of war more deeply into the youth then ever before. What I'm trying to say and seem to have failed to make clear, is that when someone was drafted during WWII, they had very little idea of what kind of emotional and physical trauma they were in for. Now, the people who are drafted into armies in first-world nations have a pretty solid idea; the imagery of modern warfare has already been well-instilled into masses of people in many cultures. Hence, they might really wish that there was another way, but are still being forced to war. I'm hypothesizing.

[MAR]

there's no occupation....

right..

and i'm connie chung..

If you think there is an "occupation" then prove it with facts.

[CACashRefund]

yeah i agree with the jew

the israelis fought the palestinians for the land and came out on top, they faced not only the palestinians but a number of arab countries

thats not occupation thats "you got your ass kicked deal with it"

[MAR]

thank you.

[fermentor666]

yeah i agree with the jew

the israelis fought the palestinians for the land and came out on top, they faced not only the palestinians but a number of arab countries

thats not occupation thats "you got your ass kicked deal with it"



That, and the land was given to them by the UN, right? If I'm wrong, correct me and tell me how it was given. I know they fought for it, but it was because they were attacked first.

And I've also been told that the Palestinians did not actually have a nation, but were merely a tribe of Arabs who were not welcome in any other Arab nation. Again, if someone thinks I am wrong, please give me your version.

[Dawood]

If you think there is an "occupation" then prove it with facts.



well, before we start this discussion...what is youre defenition of "occupation"?

[--->]

yeah i agree with the jew

the israelis fought the palestinians for the land and came out on top, they faced not only the palestinians but a number of arab countries

thats not occupation thats "you got your ass kicked deal with it"

And in 1940, before we came to the rescue, you could say the same about the Nazis conquest of most of Europe... "thats not occupation thats "you got your ass kicked deal with it".

[MAR]

That, and the land was given to them by the UN, right? If I'm wrong, correct me and tell me how it was given. I know they fought for it, but it was because they were attacked first.

And I've also been told that the Palestinians did not actually have a nation, but were merely a tribe of Arabs who were not welcome in any other Arab nation. Again, if someone thinks I am wrong, please give me your version.

it was given back to them by the british and the un recognised them.

from what i understand the palestinian people are made up of many different tribes(?) of arabs and currently are not welcome anywhere else, with maybe the acception of jordan.

as far a definition of occupation ill go with: Illegal seizure of land by a foreign military force.

[--->]

That, and the land was given to them by the UN, right? If I'm wrong, correct me and tell me how it was given. I know they fought for it, but it was because they were attacked first.

And I've also been told that the Palestinians did not actually have a nation, but were merely a tribe of Arabs who were not welcome in any other Arab nation. Again, if someone thinks I am wrong, please give me your version.

So my your definitions did we not steal America from the Injuns?

[fermentor666]

I did not make any definitions and said nothing of stealing. But yes, I recognize the fact that Native Americans were here long before the English, French, and Spanish landed on this rock of earth. I think they actually conquered them, not just stole the land. But I don't think that holds much relevance to the topic at hand.

[--->]

from what i understand the palestinian people are made up of many different tribes(?) of arabs and currently are not welcome anywhere else, with maybe the acception of jordan.
.
Is it not true that the Jews were "given" Isreal (by Europeans) because they are nomadic tribes that had no home and weren't even entirely welcome in Europe? Aren't we being a little hipocritical now?



as far a definition of occupation ill go with: Illegal seizure of land by a foreign military force.
And aren't the Jews a foreign military force that (Illegally by the Palestinians law) seized their land?

[--->]

I did not make any definitions and said nothing of stealing. But yes, I recognize the fact that Native Americans were here long before the English, French, and Spanish landed on this rock of earth. I think they actually conquered them, not just stole the land. But I don't think that holds much relevance to the topic at hand.


No. You said that the Palestinians were mearly tribes and insinuated that they have no claim to their land because they dont have a (recognized) government. So whether or not you realize it, you were compareing them to the Native Americans. Yeah, it's relevant.

[fermentor666]

No. You said that the Palestinians were mearly tribes and insinuated that they have no claim to their land because they dont have a (recognized) government. So whether or not you realize it, you were compareing them to the Native Americans. Yeah, it's relevant.


There is a difference here, and it is that the Palestinians who are now trying to lay claim on Isreal are not the Palestinians of when Israel was granted that land. And there was no U.N. in the 1600's. And America was not even imaginable until the Westerners landed on it, whereas the Middle East had long since been mapped, colonized, and divided into nations by the time of 1948. And the Palestinians are still around, so they have not been wiped off the face of the earth, or conquered. You're really picking the wrong arguments.

[CACashRefund]

And in 1940, before we came to the rescue, you could say the same about the Nazis conquest of most of Europe... "thats not occupation thats "you got your ass kicked deal with it".

by your logic, then no nation in any part of the world is a legitimate entity

[Dawood]

it was given back to them by the british and the un recognised them.

from what i understand the palestinian people are made up of many different tribes(?) of arabs and currently are not welcome anywhere else, with maybe the acception of jordan.

as far a definition of occupation ill go with: Illegal seizure of land by a foreign military force.


so what exactly make a seizure of land "illegal"?

[Smart]

I did not make any definitions and said nothing of stealing. But yes, I recognize the fact that Native Americans were here long before the English, French, and Spanish landed on this rock of earth. I think they actually conquered them, not just stole the land. But I don't think that holds much relevance to the topic at hand.
See... well, I see... Your argument has a couple big flaws, not ones that truly affect what you're trying to get across but I would still call them GLARING errors. The Americas were claimed by "Right of Discovery". The Europeans 'discovered' the new world and claimed it in the names of their various monarchs. Israel, or more accurately the land that is now Israel and a bunch more surrounding it, was claimed by the British by "Right of Conquest" long before they gave the land to the Israelites.

The British owned and maintained said ownership with the gun and oppression. The Palestinians never seemed to have a problem with that but when the Jews moved in suddenly it was 'there goes the neighborhood' and the Syrians and Egyptians (mainly) decided to take the Israelites land (again 'right of conquest') and FAILED.

In the past (including WWII) such failures always resulted in reparations outlined in the various peace treaties negotiated throughout time. It was in fact war reparations that bankrupted Germany after WWI and led to the conditions that set up Hitler's rise to power. In Israel, after the 6 day war, the Israelites laid claim to conquered lands they felt were vital to their defense. The Golan Heights are a nice example because it shows both sides.

In '67 the Israelis took the Golan Heights because they had been used (by virtue of their elevation) to launch artillery attacks into Israel. There was another battle in '73 and, except for a brief victory, the Syrians were sent on home again. In '75 the US brokered a deal which gave the Syrians ONE city close by (I forget the name) and that treaty was signed by both sides. Later, sometime in Begin's rule the Israelis annexed the entire area and placed it under Israeli law as well as control. As far as I know, no country in the international community has ever recognized that annexation. It is apparent to me, though, that the strategic neccessity of the annexation is sound and since they won it, they keep it, imho.

I think Israel has been exceedingly generous in recent years by setting up a process to return Israel to the pre-'67 borders. If I took something, then fought for ownership, then kept it for nearly 50 years, no matter what 'it' is, I doubt I'd give it back if it brought me pleasure (security) and served as a constant reminder that I'm not to be fucked with.

[Dawood]

Here's the thing. There's always going to be 2 sides to a story. And whoever wins a war usually gets to write the history books that get taught in schools. 200 Years from now, Bush will probably go down as some kind of hero for what happened in Iraq and it will most likely just be quickly mentioned that some people opposed the war.

It's no different with this palestianian situation. I don't know much about it personally, but i'd like to invite my palestinian freind who is very knowledgeable about this to join this discussion. I really don't like to enter into arguments and pigheadedly add my opinion when I have the real possiblity of not knowing what i'm talking about. (historically)

[MAR]

Is it not true that the Jews were "given" Isreal (by Europeans) because they are nomadic tribes that had no home and weren't even entirely welcome in Europe? Aren't we being a little hipocritical now?

No. They where given it because they were from there and jews have always had a presence in Israel throught history. There were always Jews in Israel.

And aren't the Jews a foreign military force that (Illegally by the Palestinians law) seized their land?

Well if you want to go by palestinian law Israel doesnt exsist; so no.

If you want to go by international law, well, no again. You see britan was given control of the land from the turks who got their control from the romans who got it from the jews. so whos land is it?

Well technicly at the time, the british, and they decided to make two states one jewish one arab. well the arabs didnt like that so much, so after israel was declaired, they attacked, (they meaning all the surrounding nations and some). The jews managed to win even though according to all military stratagist they should have been wiped off the face of the earth or pushed into the sea as the arab chant went.

Fast forward. Jews attacked again, win again, gain more land. They give some back, unconditionally, a move never done in the history of war. They keep some land as a buffer zone between them and syria, because syria was shelling their people dayly, this area is known as the galil and golan.

The jews in 67 had a chance to kick all the remaining foriegn arabs out of israel but in a peaceful move by moshe dayan they let them stay. These are the people that seek to destroy the Jewish people and thier homeland and have tried to overthrough arab governments, lebonon most notably, they are an unwanted people.

and Smart http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/thumbup.gif.

[--->]

There is a difference here, and it is that the Palestinians who are now trying to lay claim on Isreal are not the Palestinians of when Israel was granted that land. And there was no U.N. in the 1600's. And America was not even imaginable until the Westerners landed on it, whereas the Middle East had long since been mapped, colonized, and divided into nations by the time of 1948. And the Palestinians are still around, so they have not been wiped off the face of the earth, or conquered. You're really picking the wrong arguments.

Exactly they're still around. They're still alive and kicking and are fighting for their shit. And when were the Native Americans whiped off the face of the Earth? They're still here they just gave up fighting for their land along time ago. I'm not picking an arguement just speaking the unbiassed truth.

[--->]

by your logic, then no nation in any part of the world is a legitimate entity

No, I'm just saying that if the locals are fighting back then they are in the right. If you're gonna invade another country don't cry when the natives aren't having it.

[--->]

No. They where given it because they were from there and jews have always had a presence in Israel throught history. There were always Jews in Israel.



Well if you want to go by palestinian law Israel doesnt exsist; so no.

If you want to go by international law, well, no again. You see britan was given control of the land from the turks who got their control from the romans who got it from the jews. so whos land is it?

Well technicly at the time, the british, and they decided to make two states one jewish one arab. well the arabs didnt like that so much, so after israel was declaired, they attacked, (they meaning all the surrounding nations and some). The jews managed to win even though according to all military stratagist they should have been wiped off the face of the earth or pushed into the sea as the arab chant went.

Fast forward. Jews attacked again, win again, gain more land. They give some back, unconditionally, a move never done in the history of war. They keep some land as a buffer zone between them and syria, because syria was shelling their people dayly, this area is known as the galil and golan.

The jews in 67 had a chance to kick all the remaining foriegn arabs out of israel but in a peaceful move by moshe dayan they let them stay. These are the people that seek to destroy the Jewish people and thier homeland and have tried to overthrough arab governments, lebonon most notably, they are an unwanted people.

and Smart http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/thumbup.gif.

You're grabbing for straws. Your bending over backwards for excusses. I don't even care enough to fully argue with you. Bottom line is I'm just giving an unbiassed view. If anything Isrealies and Arabs are both dispicable peoples generally but I'm not gonna get into that. I'm just saying that you can't blame the locals for defending their turf. Your people never actually won the land because the palestinians never actually gave up fighting for it. You can't claim to have won a fight when your opponent is still throwing punches. That's like saying we already defeated Iraq when the fact is that Americans are still being killed every day by the Iraqis and other Arabs in Iraq that refuse to give in. You can't blame them or try to label them as being in the wrong when they kill you and your people while you're attacking, invading and basically taking their land.

[--->]

And you can bash Hamas and call them terrorists all you want but the fact is that they are now an ellected legitimate government.:biglaugh:

[fermentor666]

Smart, that's sort of what I was going for, but not as informed as what you wrote.


Dawood, what Bush's reputation 50 years from now is depends on whether or not the rest of the politicians in D.C. do the right thing and impeach him for treason, lying to the public, and illegal survaliance on the American people. It's funny that they actually ran impeachment trials on Clinton for lying about sex (not that he was justified), but when Bush gives up the identity of an American secret operative of the CIA--aiding the enemy, the exact definition of treason, a crime in this country that used to be punishable by death--no one is saying anything. If he finishes this term, he will not be considered one of the greatest presidents, but there will be no stigma on the man like their was on Nixon. The only other thing that would do this would be if he plummets us into another world war.

[MAR]

You're grabbing for straws.

bullshit. Israel/the jews has every right to be there. The land was never the palestinian's, so how could they claim it as thiers? And since there have always been jews there how can you call them the natives anymore than the israelis, even more so because the vast majority of the so called palestinians arent even native to that area. Thats like saying the spanish and french dont own all of their contries because you have basque still attacking them.


goverment or not hamas will alway be terrorist.

[--->]

bullshit. Israel/the jews has every right to be there. The land was never the palestinian's, so how could they claim it as thiers? And since there have always been jews there how can you call them the natives anymore than the israelis, even more so because the vast majority of the so called palestinians arent even native to that area. Thats like saying the spanish and french dont own all of their contries because you have basque still attacking them.
What jews? How many? A handfull? Who cares? You're still grabbing at straws. And how can you say that the Palestinians aren't even native to the area?:haha: You're full of shit. You're making this up as you go along aren't you?:haha:



goverment or not hamas will alway be terrorist.

And so is the Isreali government. What's your point?

[Smart]

Bottom line is I'm just giving an unbiassed view. If anything Isrealies and Arabs are both dispicable peoples generally but I'm not gonna get into that. I'm just saying that you can't blame the locals for defending their turf.

I think he's got you stumped Mar... His twin pronged attack using bigotry and historical ignorance is gonna be a tough one to beat.

And despite his continued rants he also claims he doesn't "even care enough to fully argue with you" so, imagine what he's actually capable of...

[MAR]

What jews? How many? A handfull? Who cares? You're still grabbing at straws. And how can you say that the Palestinians aren't even native to the area?:haha: You're full of shit. You're making this up as you go along aren't you?:haha:



hardly anyone who calls themselves "palestinian" is native to israel. Most immagrated to the country in the late 1800's to early 1900's looking for work after the israelis made the country bloom again. Check british cencus reports from that time, the numbers of "native palestinians" (who btw recorded themselves as other people) is very small, and the reports show that there was a sizable presence of jews before the first aliyah. Israel was a shit hole before the jews changed it, if you dont believe me how about mark twain? http://www.shechem.org/machon/mtwain/52.htm


But what would you know other than you copy paste, liberal, no thought, underdog bullcrap.

Come at me with facts then we can talk.

I think he's got you stumped Mar... His twin pronged attack using bigotry and historical ignorance is gonna be a tough one to beat.

And despite his continued rants he also claims he doesn't "even care enough to fully argue with you" so, imagine what he's actually capable of...

yeh I know right...kids...

[angelofdeath]

"goverment or not hamas will alway be terrorist."

i wont butt in to much on this, because i really am not into this subject but i think both of you are right. hamas is a "legitimate" government. and a government can be "terrorist." (as i think hamas to be) but i think it goes to show the evil of "democracy." what some of those countries over there is not pure democracy, but a nice decentralized political state like we still somewhat have in america. liberty should be a priority, not democracy.

[MAR]

well im going to do something i dont do to often, defend the palestinian people.

The palestinian government has always been corrupt. Hamas went door to door literally telling people that they would change that and provide for the people, improving the quality of life. This might have been possible had it not been for thier extreme views. Life in the palestinian controlled areas is not easy because of the terrorist action. The terrorists have made it very hard for the israelies to trust the palestinians and therefore the borders are tight. In my oppinion the general palestinan people do not want to kill jews, they maybe upset with the rules but what can you expect there is a war going on.

So the reason hamas is in power is because the alternitive wasnt much better. That said, it would be foolish of me to say they didnt know their other policies.

So do i think that all palestinians are killers? no. But their gov't is and thats something they are going to have to deal with, or change...

[CACashRefund]

No, I'm just saying that if the locals are fighting back then they are in the right.


the israelis have as much a right to be there as the palestinians

i doubt israel is crying about the palestinians fighting back, theyve been sitting on that land for the past 50+ years now and i doubt theyre gonna leave anytime soon

[Dawood]

I think it is is worth mentioning here, that the Palestinian issue is an Islaamic issue from the beginning (right through) to the end. Although, the enemies of Islaam have strived to distance it (this issue) from the Islamic path and convey to the non-Arab Muslims that this is an Arab issue, and that it does not concern the non-Arab muslims. It appears they've succeeded in this to a certain extent. This is why I feel it's not possible to reach a solution regarding this issue unless it is deemed an Islaamic issue, and the Muslims support one another in salvation, and make jihaad against the Jews in an Islaamic manner, until the land (of the Palestinians) is returned to its (rightful Palestinian) owners and the trespassing Jews return to their own lands where they came from, thereby leaving the true Jews to remain in their lands under the rule of Islaam, and not communism and nor secularism. So, truth can be plain to see and falsehood will be abandoned, and all rightful owners can return to their lands under Islaamic rule, and not under any other (rule).

that is the solution to the palestinian Issue.

[CACashRefund]

Thats all well and good dawood.

But when you have Fatah and Hamas having gunbattles with each other, it kind of undermines the whole solidarity thing you hear so much about.

[Smart]

Fuck that RIGHT OF CONQUEST, go suck on a bible.

[MAR]

.....and make jihaad against the Jews in an Islaamic manner, until the land (of the Palestinians) is returned to its (rightful Palestinian) owners and the trespassing Jews return to their own lands where they came from....

oh and should we jump back into the death camps too?

You must be pretty brainwashed. The Jews come from Israel, its our country of origin.

[Dawood]

I didn't say anything about deathcamps, I just said that the Law there should be the Shariah and the Jews can live under it peacefully. What I said was "the trespassing Jews return to their own lands where they came from, thereby leaving the true Jews to remain in their lands under the rule of Islaam"

the true Jews who are from there should have the right to stay, not the trespassers who come there to support the occupation of the palestinian people. There will never be peace in that land until the law is Islaamic. that's it.

[Smart]

So, why does Islam rule the land? It wasn't Islamic to start with, land has no religion...

[Dawood]

the religion of Islaam has commanded respect for the rights and preservation of people in terms of wealth, property and the self, and it has commanded peace making at times of war, as well as the prohibition of killing women and children. Islaam is far removed from terrorism, and ascribing terrorism to Islaam is a major injustice.

also waging war against the weak Muslims in Palestine is (Israeli) terrorism and oppression.

Islaam is the seal (finality) of all the religions. Islaam has given each and every person their rights and has honoured them by freeing them from the worship of false gods to the worship of the true Lord, Allaah.

The enemies of Islaam offer a false culture and civilisation which (negatively) differentiates between mankind, and nullifies (all) agreements, offering all types of weaponry to destroy mankind".
These days the Muslim nation is passing through a severe phase which requires it to take a close look at itself so that it can become a single Ummah defending and protecting it's beliefs and way of life.

The bad image and weakness of Islam these days is as a result of sins and weakness of faith in addition to the presence of political and religious partisanship and differing in the religion; and the last of this Nation will never be corrected except by that which corrected the first of this nation by returning to the correct Islam".

That is precisely why Islam should rule the land, because that is exactly what Allah revealed his religion for, So that Allah would be worshipped alone without worshipping false Gods and so that justice according to the Book of Allah would prevail in the land.

[Smart]

No, I didn't ask you to justify Islam, I asked you what is inherent in the land that makes it the PROPERTY of Islam.

[yumone]

fuck thsi terrorist government talk, how many early Israeli politicians were from the stern gang and hagganah? i have mad respect for a lot of members of thsoe groups as well as freedom fighters from palestine because they both stood up for what they were entitled to (liberty) against tyrants (like the british not letting fleeing jews from europe into palestine, and the israelis keeping palestinians in one big concentration camp).

Israelis ARE entitled to live there and govern themselves as long as they respect the other occupants. unfortunately the palestinianans along with other arabs had t ogo and try to take what was the israelis. Now if i was an Israeli id probably be spiteful abotu all thsoe arabs tryign to kill me and my family and 'drive us into the sea'. however if the Israelis want to be able t ochill a bit more and not worry about palestinians blowig themselves up outside their hosues they should jsut get the fuck out of the occupied territories and let the palestinians fend for themselves.

I do wonder though that if the tables were turned and the palestinians had an overwhelmign military superiority whther they wouldnt just kill all the israelis.

[MAR]

and the israelis keeping palestinians in one big concentration camp).


You made some interesting points. They only problem I have with what you have said is the quote above.

The palestinians are where they are because they choose to live there. The Palestinian governed areas are being controlled as if the territory is a seperate country. Since the palestinains and israelis are effectively at war the borders are strictly governed. Truthfully I dont see any reason why the Israelis should have to let palestinians into israel, but since they do the border is controlled. Its not a camp, its a border.

Something that bothers me is the palestinians demand for a state since they cant opperate on thier own. Way more than half thier population works within israel (not including the self governed areas) somewhere. If they were to delcare independence they would starve within weeks. What do they expect to live in palestine but work in israel?

[The Man with the Answers]

palastinians refers to any body who lives in palastine, whether they be jews, muslims or christians... its a geographic designation...this is not a islam vs. jewish issue... current reaserach is showing taht all palstinian people are ethnically the same people, some just have diffrent religions...

the main issue really is two groups of foreigners (or three) trying to control the land: Arab muslims, and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs)

[The Man with the Answers]

I think it is is worth mentioning here, that the Palestinian issue is an Islaamic issue from the beginning (right through) to the end. Although, the enemies of Islaam have strived to distance it (this issue) from the Islamic path and convey to the non-Arab Muslims that this is an Arab issue, and that it does not concern the non-Arab muslims. It appears they've succeeded in this to a certain extent. This is why I feel it's not possible to reach a solution regarding this issue unless it is deemed an Islaamic issue, and the Muslims support one another in salvation, and make jihaad against the Jews in an Islaamic manner, until the land (of the Palestinians) is returned to its (rightful Palestinian) owners and the trespassing Jews return to their own lands where they came from, thereby leaving the true Jews to remain in their lands under the rule of Islaam, and not communism and nor secularism. So, truth can be plain to see and falsehood will be abandoned, and all rightful owners can return to their lands under Islaamic rule, and not under any other (rule).

that is the solution to the palestinian Issue.


palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^

[MAR]

and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs)

Thats like saying that people from india that moved to america are native americans. I thought you were smarter than that.:shakehead:

[fermentor666]

Actually, he's right about the original cultural designation of "Palestine", it referred to everyone who lived in that area.

[Dawood]

palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^



the main issue really is two groups of foreigners (or three) trying to control the land: Arab muslims, and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs)[/quote]

first you said "Arab muslims" I assumed you were talking about the palestinain Arabs

then you said..

"palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^"

I know many palestianian muslims and they are all Arab, trust me.


[quote=The Man with the Answers]palastinians refers to any body who lives in palastine, whether they be jews, muslims or christians... its a geographic designation...this is not a islam vs. jewish issue... current reaserach is showing taht all palstinian people are ethnically the same people, some just have diffrent religions...

It is an Islam vs. jewish issue. It just depends on who you are. Some people are very religious, some people are fanatically religious and some people are secular. It depends on who you are if youre trying to gauge what the issue is. To a palestinain christian, no it's not an Islamic vs. Jewish issue, it's a land issue, but to a devout muslim or Jew it is an issue of Holy land also, not just an issue of the jews bulldozing palestinians houses or a palestinian walking onto a bus with a bomb vest. It's almost like a Gang war at this point, It's been war for so long there, people just grow up fighting from childhood. Allahu Akbar...May Allah guide the Jews. It's a trip to see the Jews at the wailing wall, and theyre so close to the 3rd most holiest mosque in the world where prayers are multiplied in rewards. If only they would let go of the traditions of the rabbis and follow the Torah. They would realize that Muhammad is the last and final prophet of Allah and accept him.

[Dawood]

No. 3674 - Narrated Anas:


When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam (one of the learned Jews), he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." ibn salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."
On this, 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and that you are the Apostle of Allah." and added, "O Allah's Apostle! Jews invent such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to I slam . " The Jews came, and the Prophet said, "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam among you?" They replied, "The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us. "The Prophet said, "What would you think if 'Abdullah bin Salam should embrace Islam?" They said, "May Allah protect him from that." The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer. Then 'Abdullah came out to them and said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah!" On this, the Jews said, "He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us." So they degraded him. On this, he (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Salam) said, "It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah's Apostle

sahih al Bukhari

[MAR]

If only you realised that Muhammad was a false prophet then you'd stop spewing this anti-jewish bullshit.

The rabbi's are the torah she balal peh- the oral law. A key part of the torah.

One man saw an angel and wrote the koran even though he was illiterate and he's believed? I just cant understand. You accept the torah but muhammed repeatedly goes against it. That doesnt even make sense.

6 million people heard G-d at sinai. It's hard to make six million people go along with a sham like that.

I dont like doing this but your insolence left me with little other choice.

Your a robot. Your religion is "Do without question and you will be saved". Doesn't that scare you? Do you ever question what you do or say, or do you always walk in the way of islam? Do the needs of others, not your family, play into your daily life?

Why are you so ignorant to believe that one religion is the way for all, even when your religion accepts all other religions that came before islam as acceptable?

Jew vs. Muslims? hmph...more like apprehension vs. blind hatred.



I dont care what you believe but dont prosolitize at me or i'll rip your religion apart...but i doubt you'd listen.

Thats one thing Christianity and Islam never caught on to. Conversion is only for those who truly want it. A forced/coerced conversion is not a conversion.

[CACashRefund]

Muhammad was a false prophet

that offends even me

[MAR]

Its ment to offend. I want him to know what it feels like to call anothers religion false.

[CACashRefund]

touche'

[the.crooked]

the last three posts are awesome.

[Dawood]

If only you realised that Muhammad was a false prophet then you'd stop spewing this anti-jewish bullshit.

.

I already showed you where he's in your book, but your people won't accept him because he's not a Jew and you call me a blind follower.

The rabbi's are the torah she balal peh- the oral law. A key part of the torah.




the rabbi's were not given the Torah, Moses was so, "woe to those rabbis who cahnge the books with their own hands"

One man saw an angel and wrote the koran even though he was illiterate and he's believed? I just cant understand. You accept the torah but muhammed repeatedly goes against it. That doesnt even make sense.

.

he didn't write the quran, it was revealed to him, he memorised it and he recited it. He was illiterate remember? How could he have written the Quran? We accept the torah as it was revealed to Moses (not after the changes, deletions and additions the rabbis made).
Now do you inderstand?


6 million people heard G-d at sinai. It's hard to make six million people go along with a sham like that.

.


6 million people heard God? whoah? and they still worshipped the calf? No wonder Allah cursed the Jews.



Your a robot. .

Nanoo-nanoo.....Danger Will Robinson, Danger.

Your religion is "Do without question and you will be saved". Doesn't that scare you? Do you ever question what you do or say, or do you always walk in the way of islam? Do the needs of others, not your family, play into your daily life?

.

I wish I was good enough to "always walk in the way of Islam" If I did, I'd be a much better person , even by your standards or anyone elses. If you want to see the most exalted of character , read about the prophet Muhammad.

Why are you so ignorant to believe that one religion is the way for all, even when your religion accepts all other religions that came before islam as acceptable?

.


because every religion can't be right, otherwise they'd all be saying the same thing. Every religion says God is something different.

I never said that the religions that came before Islam are acceptable (Judaism and christianity) What I did say is that Jesus and Moses were acceptable prophets of God and whoever followed them (in their time) were beleivers. Now, in this time , the only religion that is acceptable to God is Islam because Islam is the last message for all mankind whereas Moses's message was for the children of Isreal only and it has been abrogated by Islam in this time since the coming of Muhammad.



I dont care what you believe but dont prosolitize at me or i'll rip your religion apart...but i doubt you'd listen.

Thats one thing Christianity and Islam never caught on to. Conversion is only for those who truly want it. A forced/coerced conversion is not a conversion.

I don't think you could rip apart my religion. except with lies your rabbis told you, so go ahead and rip, I'll set you straight and maybe we can all learn something.

btw, Islam says there is no compulsion in religion, so I don't know where you get this Idea that muslims force people to be muslim. It's not true. You can't force someone to beleive.

And from what I understand about Judaism is that nobody can truly convert to Judaism
because you have to be born a jew (at least from your mothers side) so either youre born "a chosen jew" or your not. Sounds like racism to me. Well, I guess the secularist jews allow conversions now for good PR.

[the.crooked]

i think 12oz may see its first holy war.