View Full Version : fuck terrorist bullshit
most guatamalans go through mexico to get to the US. I have a few guatamanteco friends and neighbors and they all say the US fucked their country up, but Im not too informed on this to make an opinion
villain
07-13-2002, 05:05 PM
Thank God Esai is a voice of reason on this thread. When I first came on it was straight testosterone from Freeze and KaBar. What the fuck is all that shit? All balls and no brains. America is not united. That's the biggest crock of shit i've ever heard in my life! Just look at your motherfucking dollar bill. It's got illuminati written all over it. That means sectarianism. Secret Societies all that old bullshit. Just look around. We are all segregated like apartheid! Da fuck is this shit? For you ppl run your shit spewing mouths you need to get your muthafucking facts straight and quit regurgitating conspiritorial propaganda.....
You know what? That was some ugly shit on 9-11. But america fucking deserved it. Maybe not those specific people in particular but some cowardly muthafuckas are hiding behind innocent people. Just from my own personal experience I KNOW america is fucked up. I've been fucked over by cops, agencies, organizations, the government, even muthafucking charities lately. And by god you've got to have a fucking television for a brain not to realize what the fuck is going on outside your front doorstep.
I just talked to a guy the other day who had a premonition about 9-11 and nobody listened to him. So hey. Maybe we ARE infidels. why don't you check this site out
http://freezerbox.com
it's got alot of shit that i suspected but couldn't explain. Like the Dabhol powerplant connection and the transafghan naturalgas pipeline. The answers are out there. About all you'll get out of state controlled media is a bunch of political rhetoric. Maybe every once in a while they inadvertantly drop a clue but you still got to put it all together yourself.
WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA!
You are destroying the world. You are killing tons of innocent people every day. You are destroying ancient cultures and replacing them with hedonism which is the lifeblood of capitalism. The natural balance of life. The doomsday clock is ticking. Russia is in submission. America is poised to close in on the 15 former russian republics. That means more exploitation by WTO, OAS, NAFTAA, FTAA, IMF, FUCK THAT!
We are more likely to be killed by the military-industrial complex than by nuclear warfare! We have destroyed over a 1/3 of the natural wildlife in just the last 30 years! And it's getting worse! So all you spoiled ass americans want to live in your fucking bubbles w/ your fucking dildoes and your corn chips and when some muthafucka squashes you you want to cry and bitch and moan and throw a big hissy fit. That's the fucking problem. Most americans are ignorant blind slaves to the interests of the big wigs up top. IF this brand of islamic extremism were so hateful against us they would have stuck such lovely strategic targets as public utilities duh! they went after the illuminati, the tri-lateralists, all them power monging bloodsuckers that have thier fingers in everyones fucking pie all over the world.
ok i'm sick of this ranting.
look i've been reading the news like crazy for quite a while. you need to check your facts.
Originally posted by villain
Thank God Esai is a voice of reason on this thread. When I first came on it was straight testosterone from Freeze and KaBar. What the fuck is all that shit? All balls and no brains. America is not united. That's the biggest crock of shit i've ever heard in my life! Just look at your motherfucking dollar bill. It's got illuminati written all over it. That means sectarianism. Secret Societies all that old bullshit. Just look around. We are all segregated like apartheid! Da fuck is this shit? For you ppl run your shit spewing mouths you need to get your muthafucking facts straight and quit regurgitating conspiritorial propaganda.....
You know what? That was some ugly shit on 9-11. But america fucking deserved it. Maybe not those specific people in particular but some cowardly muthafuckas are hiding behind innocent people. Just from my own personal experience I KNOW america is fucked up. I've been fucked over by cops, agencies, organizations, the government, even muthafucking charities lately. And by god you've got to have a fucking television for a brain not to realize what the fuck is going on outside your front doorstep.
I just talked to a guy the other day who had a premonition about 9-11 and nobody listened to him. So hey. Maybe we ARE infidels. why don't you check this site out
http://freezerbox.com
it's got alot of shit that i suspected but couldn't explain. Like the Dabhol powerplant connection and the transafghan naturalgas pipeline. The answers are out there. About all you'll get out of state controlled media is a bunch of political rhetoric. Maybe every once in a while they inadvertantly drop a clue but you still got to put it all together yourself.
WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA!
You are destroying the world. You are killing tons of innocent people every day. You are destroying ancient cultures and replacing them with hedonism which is the lifeblood of capitalism. The natural balance of life. The doomsday clock is ticking. Russia is in submission. America is poised to close in on the 15 former russian republics. That means more exploitation by WTO, OAS, NAFTAA, FTAA, IMF, FUCK THAT!
We are more likely to be killed by the military-industrial complex than by nuclear warfare! We have destroyed over a 1/3 of the natural wildlife in just the last 30 years! And it's getting worse! So all you spoiled ass americans want to live in your fucking bubbles w/ your fucking dildoes and your corn chips and when some muthafucka squashes you you want to cry and bitch and moan and throw a big hissy fit. That's the fucking problem. Most americans are ignorant blind slaves to the interests of the big wigs up top. IF this brand of islamic extremism were so hateful against us they would have stuck such lovely strategic targets as public utilities duh! they went after the illuminati, the tri-lateralists, all them power monging bloodsuckers that have thier fingers in everyones fucking pie all over the world.
ok i'm sick of this ranting.
look i've been reading the news like crazy for quite a while. you need to check your facts.
read pages 3, 4, and 5. its all there.
villain
07-13-2002, 05:31 PM
this just in:
And in an important step toward homeland independence from Middle
Eastern oil, crude oil from Russia's Black Sea was offloaded
in the Houston Ship Channel this week -- the first-ever Russian
shipment of oil to the United States. In 1980, 65% of our crude
oil came from the Middle East. That figure is now down to 50%.
that crude oil cost us three buildings and thousands of lives.
dukeofyork
07-13-2002, 05:54 PM
yall little ignorant-think-you-know-everything fucks need to wake up yourself..
kabar was playing the anarchist card back before your mom gave birth to most of you in here. hes been around the block and knows the fucking deal.
and hes a freight fan, so hes cool in my book just for that.
villain
07-13-2002, 06:07 PM
For an anarchist it sure doesn't sound like he's thinking for himself.
This is like vietnam all over again. They just wanted to be left alone. They kicked the french out after 60 some years of occupation... then the US thinks they can take over.... nope.... they fought off the french, the US AND the Chinese!
right chozer. what was i thinking. america is the land of the free and theyre not doing anything wrong. everyone owes america and theyre heros to the whole world. the south is an especially great place. you should go to louisianna. the landfills are amazing. check out the dead wildlife in the swamps and shit while youre there. then head over to a mountainous region of hte country like oregon and check out the clearcut mountains. the bear patches are beautiful. i remember when i used to catch huge salmon out of the river i lived on in oregon. not a single one anymore. head down to the galapogus (sp) islands and check out the oil spill.then head up to alaska and compare the damage. then fly down to hawaii and check out how they rape the most beautiful place in the world and exploit it and its natives illegally. florida is doing a great job polluting its estuaries. everythings getting fucked up. and not just in the US. and its all because the citizens just dont give a flying fuck. they would rather have their way and be able to waste as much as htey want instead of putting out a minimal effort to conserve gas or whatever. just because someones been around for a while doesnt mean theyve picked up on anything anymore than the majority of the people their age in the united states. most of them are either in denial, just too greedy to give a fuck, stupid enough to actually think theyre not doing anything, or just too fuckin proud to admit theyre wrong. or something....
SleepAnDream
07-13-2002, 06:17 PM
fuckin idiot...
dukeofyork
07-13-2002, 06:19 PM
why dont you go to china and see what theyre doing THERE.
and we dont have a damn thing to do with that.
(unless you count bill clintons selling nuclear information to them....but i try to forget about that..)
youre either a person who is in denial or a person who is stupid. youre trying to rationalize all the fucked up shit the US does by comparing them to china? who gives a shit what china does. just because they do fucked up shit doesnt make it any less fucked up for the US to do all this other stuff. thats the kinda shit im talking bout. whenever you tell someone about how their country is fucked up they start talkin bout how other countries are fucked up like it makes a difference.
sleep, must be nice comin on here and saying something as simple as "fuckin idiot" to try and make yourself look smart. why dont you try and drop some knowledge if you think you know shit. dickhead...
dukeofyork
07-13-2002, 06:31 PM
actually the point im making is damn near noone gives one flying fuck....
we all pollute our shit so much its insane...
i use so many cans of spray paint (that i didnt pay for mind you..:P) that ive probably given myself a few different types of cancer and burned a hole in the ozone that i can call my own.
the whole point of the thread i thought was terrorism, and how does what you are saying about environment justify the actions of a few people when it comes to murder?
all this is about positioning. if another country were in the position that america is in, they would be "exploiting" (as you call it) us and other countries..
but seeing as how they claimed responsibility for it, are promising more attacks, and reasoning it by saying that we help out our allies....fuck them. are we supposed to leave our friends with their asses in the wind?
if thats the type of friend you are, id hate to know you personally.....
well, at least we were both tryint to make one point: americans dont give a fuck about anyone but themselves (in general). and im not saying that what the US does justifies terrorist attacks; but it damn sure asks for them. the US is leaving people with no options. you think us supporting israel is good? the only reason theyre our allies is because there are a lot of jews in the film industries and whatnot that pay to have their interests looked after. and the israeli occupation in palestine is wrong. if they werent in there in the first place there wouldnt be an issue. but the people are so fuckin stubborn that they think since theyre bigger and have more guns they can occupy andyone they fuckin please and arent going to just pull the fuck out of there and end that fuckin ancient dispute. palestine has a damn good reason to be angry and its none of the US's business over there. would you want to be put in a camp? would you want your cities bombed and attacked? israel is fucked up and the US had no business getting involved in that. and once again, just because another country would do the same if they were in our position doesnt make it right. theyre not in the position and we are and we're doing the fucked up things. what other countries would do is irrelivant because theyre not in our position in the first place. and if your friend is going out to murder someone or kick the shit out of them for no good reason, yes, you leave them with their asses in the wind.
dukeofyork
07-13-2002, 07:10 PM
i typed up a good reply, but when i hit submit it flashed that i wasnt logged in.
i dont feel like typing for another 15 minutes between busy moments at work.
villain
07-13-2002, 07:31 PM
History in my own words:
Once upon a time there was a band of fearsome pirates. They would go around and rob and pillage the agrarian paradises or rob silk or whatever.
Back then there wasn't a whole lot of superpowers. Sometimes the roman empire would take over.... sometime Alexander the great, sometimes atilla the hun.... whatever. But things were regulated for the most part because everyone kept each other in check.
Then one day the pirates discovered a whole nother side of the freaking planet! It was a beautiful land of plenty and the people there were so nice they made great suckers. So they brought thier imperialism over and now half the planet is controlled by these imperialists. Now that imperialism is so big and weighty and powerful the earth is under mighty stresses and imminent doom is near. But most people don't care. Hell, most don't even know. Fucking dinks.
Anyways the men in black in charge figure as long as they get a spot on the international space station once all of earths resources are depleted and the earth is uninhabitable they will be ok and they can eat astronaut ice cream all day and fuck clones of cindy crawford and live happily ever after.... while we all fry and mutate and drown and freeze and whatnot.
The End.
dukeofyork
07-13-2002, 07:34 PM
nice.
will i still be able to paint trains?
:confused:
Ted Wakowski
07-13-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by freeze
no see, you're wrong. i'm not your typical american [...] and really i have no idea why the hell why one might claim that we deserved to get attacked as you are suggesting
You should look into U.S. dealings with places like Iraq, Sudan, Haiti, Nicaragua, Turkey, etc...
The U.S. gov't has had its hand in a lot of fucked up shit ... for a long time.
Ted Wakowski
07-13-2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by KaBar
FUCK our enemies. May their rotting corpses cover their entire country, the sorry fucking bastards. We should honor and respect the people that keep our nation free and safe, and we should feel nothing but hate and contempt for our enemies. THEY ATTACKED US. May they rot in Hell, and the sooner, the better.
You seem like a nice guy most of the time, but damn, the above statement is among some of the stupidest redneck-sounding bullshit I've ever heard. It's on some years-of-personal-experience-and-mental-molding-leading-up-to-a-close-minded-and-fiercely-personal-view-of-the-world type shit.
I have a hard time even discussing things like politics and social issues with people. There are so many shades of grey but it seems like everyone only wants to paint with black and white.
KaBar
07-14-2002, 07:12 AM
Ted---Anybody that attacks the United States itself, or individual Americans because they are Americans is our enemy. We should hunt them down and kill them, wherever they are, under whatever circumstances we find them in. If you cannot understand that, then I accept that you are very young and naive, and will probably change as you grow older. There was a time in my life when I thought I was a pacifist. I was wrong. There was a time in my life when I thought I was an anarchist. I was wrong. I learned better, through life experience and reality testing. Save the accusations of "redneckism" for somebody who would be offended by that. Doesn't work on me. Being called a redneck in Texas is a compliment.
Enemies are just that--enemies. We ought to kill them, and most likely, if we can locate them precisely, we will kill them. The sooner, the better.
I once had an acquaintance that was a former Army Ranger and later a Delta Force commando. After he left government service, he went to work for a large oil company here in Houston as a security consultant. They have pipelines all over the world. Periodically, someone tries to harm the pipeline, usually so that they can extort money from the oil company. My acquaintance's job was to take his precision 7.62mm NATO sniper rifle and go with his spotter to wherever the company sent them, to patrol the pipeline without being seen or heard, and to neutralize anyone he observed that appeared to be a threat to it. He usually worked in Africa, often in Nigeria. According to him, there is a lot of security work there. He was one of the best rifle shots I've ever seen, out to about 800 meters. Maybe it's true. I don't know for sure. He was often gone somewhere on assignment. His wife and kids remained here in Houston.
There are people who specialize in these sorts of things, probably not a huge number, but a fairly good-sized number of them. Out there somewhere, the U.S. government very likely has CIA men on the trail of the principle players in Taliban and Al Qaida. If and when they finally get them, you won't read about it in Newsweek or see it on CNN, any more than you hear about the Al Qaida captives whose planes never arrived at Guantanamo Bay. Even if some left Guantanamo Bay, headed somewhere else, nobody is going to talk about it.
You act like my opinions about it somehow affect the outcome. Don't be silly. Believe me, the government much prefers the sanitized "public version"-- halal food, prayer caps, prayer rugs and an opportunity to pray to Allah five times a day. All I have to say about it is "Diet Coke." Believe me, if the CIA wants them to talk, they will talk.
Im sorry Kabar but not all people who threaten oil pipelines want to extort money. Many are local indegenous groups who do not like the pollution(many of these companies have scarce environmental concerns) or the fact that they dont see a pennyand feel that these rescources are being robbed from them. Especially right now in Columbia, where bush is spending 100 million on protecting a privately owned pipeline from indigenous "terrorists". My aunt has family who are in one of the local tribes that are involved with this specific pipeline owned by occidental. They basically say that this company has fucked up their land and gave them shit. Im lucky enough to live in a city that has been the destination of huge migrations of people who had to leave their land because of uncle sam's misbehavior(el salvador, nicaraugua and basically most central american countries). Its best to learn about what is goin and went down from locals rather than a book or your sargeant. I also got a lot of info on uncle sams dees in southeast asia cuz my wife's family is vietnamese and I used to also volunteer at a place in richmond,ca that assists the problems of southeast asian refugee community(vietnamese, laos, cambosian,samoans,etc)
kabar, you keep saying the same shti about how america is going to track down their enemies and fuck them up cus no one can fuck with us and we're touch motherfuckers blah blah blah... no need to repeat it again. i dont think anyones arguing with you about that. at least im not. those fools who had shit to do with those attacks deserve what they get and i hope that theyre found and delt with. what everyone else is saying is that the US does a lot of fucked up shit and theyre asking for these attacks. maybe not the people of the US but the government is for damn sure. the people are just left to wonder why they get attacked. the government knows exactly why and it shouldnt be very surprising. every time someone comes up with an argument or reason why the states are fucked, you come off with some reply about how no one can fuck with them and anyone who does will be killed then you call us naive and add a little story about your military or hippie days. the more you talk the less you sound like you ever believed in the hippie ideas. you think your friend is some kind of hero for killing people who try and steel oil. oil is not worth someones life whether theyre steeling it from us, or we're steeling it from them. the US thinks they have some sort of rights to the oil in the middle east or something. thats not our land. thats not our oil. tons of people are dying because of some dirty thieves. get a grip on reality. if you want to discuss what people are talking about then do it but dont just make some reply that is totally irrelivant to what we're saying and call us naive and shit. ill say it again; the fact that the US is going to hunt down their enemies has nothing do with the fact that they shouldnt have a lot of these enemies and theyre fuckin up a lot of other peoples shit that doesnt belong to them. youre trying to argue with us about shit we're not even talking about. i shouldnt say argue so much though. discussing. im not trying to get heated over any of this shit or start squabbling. all im sayin is that youre talking about different things.
KaBar
07-14-2002, 08:49 AM
Jah---Well, all I can say is that life is imperfect, and I'm part of life, and therefore flawed. Nobody has all the answers, and nobody's opinions are 100% correct. They are OPINIONS, that's all. And opinions change. I certainly was a hippie, and I had all sorts of sincere committment to ideas that were sort of sweet and hopeful, like Earth Day, or NORML. I was 100% against the Vietnam War, and one of my best arguments (back then) with pissed-off Vietnam veterans who were angry at us for protesting the war was this: "Let me get this straight--you went to Vietnam, and all you could think about was getting back home in one piece. I am over here working my ass off to get you home as fast as possible in one piece. What's the problem?" The problem wasn't that we held such differing views (what, you think 19-year-old draftees wanted to go to Vietnam and get thier legs blown off in some rice paddy? No way.) it was the way in which many of us presented our opinions. In fact, in every anti-war march that I was in after about 1968, the Vietnam Veterans Against The War (VVAW) was usually leading the march in the front four or five ranks.
As I've said in other posts, I was disillusioned when I realized that the anti-war movement was actually Communist-led. I also met a lot of Vietnamese refugees who came to the U.S. after the war. Their complaint was that we withdrew our forces and left them on their own (the so-called "Vietnamization" of the war) and they were over-run and defeated. They are usually virulently anti-Communist, as well. I had a number of close friends, and a cousin, who were patriotic combat veterans, as well as opponents of the war. But the more I thought about it, the more I found that the politics of the New Left, and anarchism in particular, just no longer seemed valid and appropriate.
I'm not a proponent of pollution. I hate pollution. I wish we did not use so many chemicals and didn't drive so many cars and burn up so much gasoline. But everybody in this nation loves being mobile, and I do too. We are the world's biggest polluter, true. We are also, by far, the world's biggest and most productive manufacturer. We manufacture goods and the entire world helps us consume them. The world's other large manufacturers are often just as wasteful and as polluting as the U.S., or worse. I hate clear-cutting and strip mining.
Much of the hate and envy felt towards the U.S. is because we are so adept at creating the good life for ourselves. One of the principle grieviances that the Taliban and Al Qaida have against the U.S. is that our way of life, our moral values and especially our upwardly mobile society are extremely seductive to young people in places like Afghanistan. They see our CD's and hear our music and say "I want that too." They hear about dating, and going off to college, and think "I want that too--why can't I walk and talk with my boyfriend, like American girls do? Why is that so bad?" The Taliban wanted to take Afghanistan back to the 1600's. Al Qaida is jealous. Virtually every one of the hijackers of 9/11 spent lots of time in strip clubs, and hired prostitutes. They all secretly wanted to live like Hugh Hefner. Their brand of Islam has very little to do with loving and submitting to Allah, and a whole lot to do with being pissed because Afghan teenagers like American styles-of-dress, dance and music. The people buried their TV's to protect them from the Taliban, and when Taliban was defeated, they rushed to dig them up. Like any fascist group, the Taliban wished to prevent the population from getting information, and from developing ideas that did not conform to their version of Islam. An attack upon Taliban or Al Qaida is an attack upon backwards, fascistic, totalitarian ideas. The U.S. does not promote or espouse totalitarianism, despite the accusatory tone of some of the opinions stated on this site. People who refuse to allow women to go out on the street unless they wear a burqa, or who refuse to allow girls to go to school past the fifth grade, or who outlaw kite-flying can reasonably be characterized as "totalitarian." People who hold public beheadings, mass firing-squad executions, or who order Biblical stonings for adultery, can reasonably be characterized as "totalitarian." Even still, we did not counter-attack them until they attacked us first.
Yes, I used to hold ideas and principles much like those you espouse today. But as I grew older, I grew up. And I outgrew liberalism.
Government does a shitty job of administering anything. It's a poor answer, and far from perfect. It is, however, the best thing we've got so far. I believe the market can provide a fairer and more equitable distribution than any government agency coulf possibly do. I'm not a hippie any more.
well, thats the first post i think ive read in this thread where we both agree on the majority of what was said. i agree that those people probably are jealous. but i dont believe thats the whole reason. some arent jealous at all. some just scorn the western way of life. and theyre right to. not to attack us, but to disagree. one of the problems with americans is how they will do anything to create a good life for themselves, disregarding the consequenses and affects it has on others. or they just dont know.theyre kept in the dark by the media and the government. theyre brainwashed to think that they must fulfill their desires or something terrible is going to happen. they have no concept of needing things. its just want. i want what i want cus i want it and i can get it. it doesnt mean that they should have it. like how america is so mobile. its a bad thing. the fact that you like that about america too doesnt make it right or okay. and what people need to realize is that we can get by without tons of things and in the long run the world will be a hell of a lot better place to live in. if you think i believe the worlds gonna change over night because of a couple kids with idealist theories youre mistaked. im not naive because i know that believing in this kind of shit doesnt really make much of a difference. but that doesnt mean im going to just let go of what i think is right and join the puppets because theres no hope. i have a conscience and it tells me not to go into burger king when im really hungry and dont want to wait till i get home, or to put the car in neutral when its stopped to conserve gas, or to turn off lights when im not using them, or to not take hour long showers, or not buying red meat, or recycling, or or putting my garbage in my pocket until i find a trash bin instead of throwing it on the ground, whatever. the point is that doing shit you know is wrong cus other people do it so much youre not really gonna make difference by yourlsef is still wrong because youre not living by your standards. youre not doing what you know is right. everyone slips up. i do. everyone does. i know this. but most americans do as little as possible. literally. they do the absolute minimum that they need to. they jst dont care. driving a suburban down the street by youself to get a movie is wastful. better yet, if you live by yourself in a fuckin city, dont buy an SUV; buy a civic or something. just because theyre nice to hace doesnt mean theyre right to have. a little sacrifice would go a long way. people lives are drastically altered by the little things that people refuse to do. why is there such a power crisis in souther california? if you have to ask youre a fuckin dipshit (not you personally). why havent people switched to alternative sources of power? there plenty of sun down there in california; why not put in some solar pannels? well, if solar power catches on in too many places the oil companies that rape, pilliage (sp), and destroy for their oil would be out of business. and those are the people running hte country. its ALL about money and power. they have no humanity or compassion for other people. nothing that i hear about the government surprises me (unless its something positive). i hear a lot of wacked out conspiracy theories and i hear facts and theyre usually pretty easy to differentiate. im not a conspiracy theorist i just have seen too much fucked up shit to actually buy into the governments bullshit anymore. and im sure my knowledge doesnt even begin to touch on all the fucked up things the bush's are involved in (along with virtually everyone else running the country). so you lost hope kabar. seems like most people do. maybe i will someday like you said. but dont believe all the hype just because you realized your hippie ideals werent really ever going to happen and preaching didnt make much of a difference. you obviously have ties with the military and that influences you quite a bit, im sure. but just because your involved with the government doesnt mean you have to defend the shitty things they do.
its time to start looking at things from a few steps back. look at the bigger picture. life isnt about the united states. theres a whole world ou tthere. until you see some of it its just sort of like hearing about outer space. it seems really distant and irrelivant. but once you get out and look around you see what the deal is and how small of a place it really is. and you see how much everyone effects everyone else. you at least get a much better understanding of why things are the way they are. maybe if you met someone from another country that you cared for you could stop just worrying about the people of the US and realize that other people are out there that really face some tough problems that you dont even think about in the US. nationality is bullshit. everyone in the world is a world citizen and fucking it up little by little is going to fuck the whole thing up eventually. everyones gonna catch wreck in the end. and some will deserve it and others would have nothing to do with it. the US alone produces enough food to feed all the people in the world numerous time over and half the world is dying of starvation. whats going on?
capindikfays
07-14-2002, 09:54 AM
damn, i've stumbled into some deep shit
war makes money
and bush ain't funny
a concerned bloodskull
Ted Wakowski
07-14-2002, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by KaBar
Ted---Anybody that attacks the United States itself, or individual Americans because they are Americans is our enemy. We should hunt them down and kill them, wherever they are, under whatever circumstances we find them in.
Thus furthering the noble and just American way of life! Let freedom ring!! Drink Sprite!!!
KaBar
07-15-2002, 05:28 AM
Ted Wakowski---Well, you can be like that, and that's okay. But personally, I think you need some broader horizons. Why not travel to someplace (relatively) close and sort of more-or-less Third World? I suggest El Salvador. You can get there by air from Miami or Houston and it's not so far away that if things really went to shit, or if you got real sick, you couldn't get home pretty quick. Go check it out, Ted. Then come back and tell me how much the U.S. sucks, how we're all insensitive assholes, spoiled rotten, etc., etc. You need some Real World therapy, and I don't mean MTV. Go on. Go have an adventure. You'll see.
I went to Okinawa with the Marine Corps. When I arrived back in the States, to El Toro Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, CA., I got down on my hands and knees and KISSED THE RUNWAY I was so glad to be home. Go ahead. Go check out the rest of the world. Better remember to take your amoxicillin and your malaria pills though.
Jah---I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the idea that I must change the way I live my life to suit somebody else. Sorry, but I'm not doing that. As long as I can afford the life I choose to live, then I'm going to do it however I please. I'm not harming anyone by so doing. If the rest of the world is concerned about the U.S. using so much energy, etc., then they can simply refuse to sell us oil. They won't do that, of course. They are every bit as greedy and short-sighted as you allege Americans to be. Their complaints revolve around not being able to figure out a way to get on the same gravy train that the U.S. and Western Europe have created. Yes, we are wealthy (compared to some Third World peasant) and we have enough to eat and a decent life. They don't. THAT IS NOT OUR FAULT. If the people of Somalia chose to do so, they could turn Somalia into the Cabo San Lucas of the Horn of Africa. They choose not to do that. They could be the Switzerland of Africa. They choose not to do that. They could be the Rio De Janerio of Africa. They choose not to do that. That also, is not our fault. They choose to be poor and starving and ruled by tribal warlords. Oh, well. Later for them. If Bill Clinton had had any guts, Somalia would have suffered the full brunt of American military force for the "Black Hawk Down" story. But that's another argument altogether, which would just be a big waste of time.
Declaring that all these problems are the fault of the U.S. is like declaring that AIDS is the fault of the U.S. It's not our fault, and it's not our responsibility to provide care for the millions of world-wide AIDS sufferers. It's dirt simple. I know a lot of people from Africa, here in Houston. They will tell you straight out--"the people who are catching slim are the people who sleep around. Don't have sex with strangers and you won't catch slim." IT'S THAT SIMPLE. Be faithful to one person, and one person only, and you are very safe. If you won't do that, you're likely to die of AIDS. Simple. I could not care less about their moral code, but if they refuse to keep their sex lives in order, they are going to die. Period. We know this, the Europeans know this, the Asians know this and so do the Africans. Everybody knows. But they don't choose to remain safe. Anti-viral medications cost about $20,000 per year. Even if the governments manufacture their own medications, it's still thousands of dollars per person per year. They don't have the means to do that. So the answer lies in changed sexual behavior. Either change, or die. Simple. Unfortunately, nations like Uganda and Zimbabwe are already 40% infected. Uganda is finished, as a nation, unless they change. Zimbabwe was once Africa's second wealthiest nation. Now they can't even feed themselves. (So much for their victory over the evil white farmers....) If they succeed in driving all the white farmers out of Zimbabwe, there will be a famine. Again--NOT OUR FAULT. They did it to themselves and they will experience the consequences of their own foolishness.
capindikfays
07-15-2002, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle
americans always stick their nose in other peoples business. Who the fuck are you to say what's right and wrong??
no shit, right?
I Luv Roo
07-15-2002, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by KaBar
If ANYBODY fucks with the United States, they better hope to hell we don't take them alive. Because they will pay, and pay. The only solution is for them to stay off our shit list. Sadaam Hussein is right at the very top. Just look for it.
kabar, can you list for me the things that Saddam did to 'fuck with the united states'?
Also, if it's your opinion that every country in the world should stay off our shitlist - aren't you reinforcing most people's arguments that the US is the world's bully, and they use strongarm tactics to get what they want? Is that a good thing to you? Would you kike them to come to your door and bully you out of your elegant lifestyle?
you are a genuine texan. congratulations. "they choose to be poor." spoken like a true racist marine. your experience in okinawa was with a bunch of racist jackasses who were all your friends im sure and all influenced you very much. thats why you have such fucked up views about okinawans and people in third world countries. a lot of them have way better values than you. gun crazy cowboy....
yes ted, go to south american and see exploited, poverty stricken slaves working in factories for barely enough to servive. kabar here will tell you theyre lucky to have that job and if they dont like it they can starve to death. what a great point of view. the military really knows how to make em....
I Luv Roo
07-15-2002, 08:21 AM
And Kabar - It's pretty apparent that no one is going to change your views on the world, so maybe give your speeches a rest - you're not changing anyone's mind here.
And, you are apt proof that our middle aged generations (the baby boomers) are stinted and stubborn, refuse to learn anything from the present, and instead refer to their days as young adults - then treat us young adults as if we are uneducated and naive.
We probably know more about our nations dirty past and present than anyone because we thirst for answers and we seek them out. We are wary enough to not trust the 6 o clock news, and we know full well not the believe everything we read. Yes, we are the so called 'lost' X-generation - a generation of individuals more evolved, educated, and aware than any before. We look to our parents' past for inspiration, despite their own lost appetite for justice, and gained appreciation of the Land Rover.
You guys are grandparents now. Stuck in the past, your prime is gone, yet you continue to revel in its triumphs, however long over. Unless you plan on continuing to learn, grow and expand, it's time to move over. Your old ways will not work for the world for much longer. Your generation has been a shining example of what NOT to become when I hit my middle years.
Thank you.
Nice wording Roo, the liberalism of the town has done you good. Is brown still trying to gentrificate the o? My favorite part of kabar's sermon was about goin to El salvador at first, but then the whole" theychoose to be poor" was great as well. Damn homie are you just quoting from the Gingrich/Limbaugh big book of ignorance, or just from what ABC news tells you? I value your opinion, it just seems more akin to deadarab.com. It still is better than the other 12 year old rantings Ive read. THis narrow minded view is what is goin to be the end for america, its showing to me how weak in the brain white(or should I say wealthy) america is becoming. Evey empire has fallen in history, and I believe the cracks are showing in the ignorance of our country. My grandpa always told me "the white man can lie and distort the truth all he wants, but the truth will still seep out the sides and eventually destro him.
[/QUOTE]Declaring that all these problems are the fault of the U.S. is like declaring that AIDS is the fault of the U.S. It's not our fault, and it's not our responsibility to provide care for the millions of world-wide AIDS sufferers. It's dirt simple. I know a lot of people from Africa, here in Houston. They will tell you straight out--"the people who are catching slim are the people who sleep around. Don't have sex with strangers and you won't catch slim." IT'S THAT SIMPLE. Be faithful to one person, and one person only, and you are very safe. If you won't do that, you're likely to die of AIDS. Simple. I could not care less about their moral code, but if they refuse to keep their sex lives in order, they are going to die. Period. We know this, the Europeans know this, the Asians know this and so do the Africans. Everybody knows. But they don't choose to remain safe. Anti-viral medications cost about $20,000 per year. Even if the governments manufacture their own medications, it's still thousands of dollars per person per year. They don't have the means to do that. So the answer lies in changed sexual behavior. Either change, or die. Simple. Unfortunately, nations like Uganda and Zimbabwe are already 40% infected. Uganda is finished, as a nation, unless they change. Zimbabwe was once Africa's second wealthiest nation. Now they can't even feed themselves. (So much for their victory over the evil white farmers....) If they succeed in driving all the white farmers out of Zimbabwe, there will be a famine. Again--NOT OUR FAULT. They did it to themselves and they will experience the consequences of their own foolishness. [/QUOTE]
wow, i stopped reading right before there when i posted my other reply. i cant believe you just said that. thats some of the most ignorant racist shit ive ever heard. you dont think the fact that white people came into africa and raped it up the ass until it couldnt stand any more had anything to do with the state its in today? i dont even really know what to say exactly. wow! you went too far there.
I Luv Roo
07-15-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Esai
Nice wording Roo, the liberalism of the town has done you good. Is brown still trying to gentrificate the o?
He's slowed down a bit. Not sure what he's up to now - you'd think there be more noise considering elections are at the end of the year...
I love oakland!
dukeofyork
07-15-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by I Luv Roo
And, you are apt proof that our middle aged generations (the baby boomers) are stinted and stubborn, refuse to learn anything from the present, and instead refer to their days as young adults - then treat us young adults as if we are uneducated and naive.
thats because young adults ARE uneducated and naive.
dont worry though, one day YOU and i will be the ones calling younger adults uneducated and naive. kabar has been there and done all that far before your mom and dad met more than likely.
im leaving now. yall have fun.
ill stop by every once and a while..........maybe.
KaBar
07-15-2002, 08:05 PM
You need some on-the-ground experience. You may not change your views very much at first, but the more you know, the more you'll understand how rare and precious the American experience is. The fact that it is so difficult to replicate says worlds. GO TO AFRICA AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. I have friends, co-workers and acquaintances from both Africa and South Asia. They do not understand American blacks at all. One of my co-workers struggledall his life to overcome obstacles at home in Nigeria to become educated and to legally immigrate to the U.S. He married an African-American woman and they had a baby. He thought she was the cultured, well-educated college graduate she appeared to be, but they have divorced. She uses cocaine, she has a completely uncontrolled lifestyle. His daughter, whom he loves very much, has gone completely ghetto. He is shocked and dismayed. He cannot understand where it comes from--and denies that anything he did or said could have resulted in such catastrophe. "It's the culture, this horrible culture," he says. "Why would they want to be criminals? I just don't understand it." And in Nigeria? "That culture, I do understand. One's tribe, one's connections, all are a part of existance. It's like a Mafia that goes everywhere and contols every thing. If I had stayed there, I would have been lost. Here, in America, one makes one's own future." And all I can add to that is that this first-generation Nigerian, middle-aged and over weight, is making upwards of $50,000 a year. Don't tell me that one's economic level is not a choice. It is too a choice, and one that anyone can make if they choose to make it. The fact that millions of people choose to do nothing just underscores the success of those who choose to change their lives. If you guys choose to adopt a philosophy that puts the blame for your problems on somebody else, you will spend endless amounts of time fighting a system that is very resistant. Ask somebody like Abby Hoffman. It's a waste of time and effort.
Young people always struggle to change things. And things do change. Very, very slowly, most of the time. Look inward, towards something you can actually affect. Yourself, now that's something you can change. If you choose to do so.
Im sorry Kabar, but you need to open your eyes to the real world bro. That conservative republican "its not my responsibility" bullshit doesnt fly in reality, it just seems that way cuz all these politicians blab it 24/7. I agree with you somewhat about personal responsibility,after all you cant whine and blaim everyone for your woes. But that would be the only truth if the playing field was even. There are institutions in this country that fuck people over and they are motivated by either classism or racism. Because of that thing will never be right, the poor(or oppressed) will always be demanding what they believe to be equality and the rich(the oppressors) will always brush off responsibility. The political landscape of our country is molded by money, not democracy. For the past 40 years, taxation of the wealthy has plumeted while steadily rising for the rest of the country because all our politicians are rich and they look after their own, democrat or republican. Unless us young liberal minded people start taking initiative around politics thing aint gonna change. But the whole concept of your future is molded by only you, is a half truth. In all of american history less than 1 % of all millionares didnt inherit their fortune, and it is getting harder and harder to accumulate wealth. although not impossible. it is 200 times harder for a brown kid from el paso to graduate from harvard than any son of the president. You cant avoid agreeing on that.
KaBar
07-16-2002, 08:20 AM
Yes, I do agree with that statement. But what you are saying is that it would be tough for a guy from El Paso to join the super-elite at Harvard. What the hell, who'd want to? I wouldn't go to Harvard if you put a gun to my head. Being a member of the Richey Rich inner circle doesn't appeal to me at all. Maybe I can't ever be a power broker--so what? I don't want to be part of that, so it's not a problem for me.
The things that are important to me have very little to do with being wealthy.
But here's an example--I have a friend from Mexico. His family owned a ranch there, hundreds of acres of land, very few cattle or horses. His father was too poor to make a go of it. The father sent three of his sons to the United States at age 16. They entered illegally, went to their uncle's house in Houston, and all got jobs as sandblasters and painters at an oil tool company. They sent 90% of their pay home to Mexico. With that the father immediately began improving the ranch. He bought an irrigation pump. He bought a registered American bull, to improve his herd. They built a poured concrete house. It looks typically Mexican, but it is obviously designed like a fortress. The windows have 1/4" thick steel shutters, with a "cross" cut into them, to provide firing ports. His father invested money in rifles, which are illegal in Mexico. They bought a piece of land in town, and opened a tienda, where my friend's mother sells beer, soft drinks, cigarettes, candy and small amounts of canned food.
In less than five years, my friend's parents went from dirt poor to wealthy, by Mexican standards, all due to one thing--American dollars. My friend was grateful for the job. His heart is still in Mexico, but his children were raised here. They are as American as apple pie. They are just like every other American kids. They do not want to ever live in Mexico. They call Matamoros de Puebla "that dried up place". They want to live the good life, the American way of life. They like Game Boy and Selena CD's. No rancho for these girls. My friend is a success, by any measure of standards. But he wants to go home to Matamoros de Puebla and raise cows, and ride his horses and hang out with his cousins
I can understand that. But if he had not chosen to come to the U.S.? He would be a dirt-poor Mexican vaquero with a chip on his shoulder.
I Luv Roo
07-16-2002, 08:45 AM
You think those guys got paid as much as the US citizen workers? Did they have benefits and union rights?
kabar, i woke up at 5 in the morning the lat two days in a row and went to school until 2 30. i havent woken up past before 8 in a year so bear with me here. id like to say, first of all, that america has some great qualities. qualities you cant find anywhere else. im not disagreeing with you there. there are great opertunities and plenty of things to keep one entertained. the cultural mix is cool too. any big city in the states you can find any kind of food you want. you even have the right to a fair trial once in a while. but overall the US is a ces pool of greedy puppets hopeless idiots. in the long run, the united states is going to destroy a lot of the world. of course other countries (all countries) contribute to the problems and all governments are corrupt in one way or another. the united states advocates corruption. it initiates it and supports it. it just knows how to hide it better than other countries. it does more damage to the rest of the world than any other country. all the other coutries that the US are worried about habving nuclear weapons arent the ones who go around bombing everyone. whether they would if they could is irrelivant cus they cant. therefore they dont. the US does. the united states government is the biggest crime organization/terrorist in the world. other countries that are known for corruption and cruelty are known for it because they do it blatantly to their own people. the US does it discretely to it own and others. they do it by letting the fda approve poisons, putting toxic waste in drinking water, bringing drugs into the ghettos, beating handcuffed criminals, the list goes on and on. it fucks with other people in a lot worse ways. it does just enough to keep people satisfied (zombified) or occupied by television, radio, shopping.... consumerism and sex. they make you think you have all these rights but if you start using them against them youre gonna find yourself 6 feet deep pretty quick. they dont care when you talk about the CIA being involved in all these skandals or the government or anything for that matter. but when you start mentioning specific names and their specific skandals... you know the rest. they send their kids to fight for their greed and die in other countries but they wont allow them to drink until 21. why can you go and die in war for your country but you cant make the decision to have a beer? or a joint for that matter. and no, im not whining about not being able to drink in the US. i could give a fuck, ive been drinking for years anyway. their stupid laws dont make a differnce (at least not a positive one). im just using that as an example. being able to fire deadly weapons and die at war but you cant decide for yourself if you want to drink away your life. fucked up. thats why so many kids are turning to other drugs that are much easier to get (paint thinner, cough medicine, x, coke.... theyre all easy to get) that completely fuck them up. people are thick headed. theyd rather show those dumb fuck bush faggots that theyre going to do what they want than be healthy and live a good life. sure its a stupid decision and they chose their own fate, but thats the way it goes. kids will rebel. they want to show you that they can do what they want even if they dont really want to. they grow up seeing everyone striving for power, respect, and money and they think thats worth dying for. or they just dont know shit about what theyre doing to themselves because retarded programs like dare just feed them with bullshit all the time. lying to kids about drugs to keep them scared does not work. parents who are honest with their kids and treat them with dignity and respect and teach them good values end up with good kids. its the same with government. if you lie and confuse the fuck out of people and sufficate them with media and tell them they need this and that to be cool or get women or have a good life youre going to get kids who dont know what the fucks going on. and adults for that matter. you, kabar, are a product of the governemt. the military. the US media. those people in africa dont choose to have shitty lives. they just start out that way and no one teaches them how to live and better themselves. they just know they want to survive and thats it. sex is one of hte things that comes natural. its instict. a lot of people in africa probably still dont know what aids is. and even in the places they do, condoms are not readily available and they cant even afford them if they were. theyre trying to survive, to eat, to have shelter; safe sex isnt their first priority. do you think the minorities in the united states choose to live in the ghettos? true, if they really wanted to get out of the ghetto they most likely would be able to. but they dont know what the fuck to do to get out of the ghetto. the poor areas are the ones most influenced by television and consumerism and drugs. the schools are no good, there are usually too many problems in their family life, they dont want to sit around at home all day. what the fuck are they supposed to do. play basketball till they die? thats why theres so much trouble around those neighborhoods. im not even gonna take anymore time trying to get through to you. youre too old to take in new ideas and youre too brainwashed and blinded by your pride for america to hear this shit. what do people in america have to be proud of these days besides living in the most powerful country in the world? its sad people think theyre better than other countries for stupid shit like that. they think because the military is strong theyre somehow stronger or have something on others. foolish....
Pistol
07-16-2002, 09:17 AM
what the fuck does all this have to do with terrorists?
you hate America and complain every chance you get.
we understand.
....so about those terrorist scumbags...
pistol, lets take a few steps back. let me break it down for you so you can understand since youre a little slower. or maybe you just wanted an excuse to talk shit about me. i dont know.. anyway, what this has to do with terrorism is that some people just dont seem to get why we got attacked. they have no fuckin clue as a matter of fact. as far as they know its because the axis of evil has made its way to america and bush is the knight in shining armor thats going to save them from this unprovoked group of terrorists. kabar is one who thinks the US doesnt do anything to the rest of the world that they shouldnt do and that the US is the most perfect, considerate country in the world. he thinks america is a god damn super hero thats here to rid the world of communism/terror and has everyones best interests in mind. what im telling him (and anyone else listening) is that the US does a lot of fucked up shit to piss people off. the discussion has gone a little further than terrorism but it is all related. yeah, i like to complain every chance i get. im sorry i wasted 5 minutes of your life by writing something that you have no obligation to read if youre not interested. im trying to drop some knowledge and im bored. im having a discussion that has nothing to do with you. kabar is making some points that i dont agree with and im telling him why. even if it didnt have anything to do with terrorism i woundt give a fuck. im not writing it for you and i dont expect you to read it or appreciate it or agree with it. i wasnt even talking to you. who the fuck are you to say shit abou what i write in a thread. 12 oz is full of stupid shit thats a lot more of a waste of time than this is. go read a thread about jerkin off if youre tired of hearing me complain asshole.
originally posted by myself:
"the US is the biggest terrorist in the world."
i would say that relates to this thread pretty well. why dont you read the whole post and give it some thought before posting dickhead comments merely to piss me off.
Rogue23
07-16-2002, 11:58 PM
JAH: seeing as how you are dropping all this knowledge and like bitchin so much why dont you offer some constructive ideas... for example if we are all so in the shits here in amerika and we do agree that though it may suck at best its still a hell of a lot better than everywhere else; what would you suggest be done to fix it? more to the point aside from preaching to the choir on an isolated chat what are you doing about this situation and what would you in your infinite wisdom have a buch of dumb fucks like us do? just curious.
Daddy_Screw
07-17-2002, 01:00 AM
[img]http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~jbusby/images/america.jpg'>
Cracked Ass
07-17-2002, 03:41 AM
I am late to this thread, and too crosseyed after the first 4 pages to read the other four, so pardon me if this already came up.
I understand where almost everyone is coming from in this thread, and I've already covered all the ground everyone has covered, come up with the grand unified theory, and moved on. Then I'm too weary of all the bullshit to even try to explain my position. It's possible that I have the highest IQ of anyone on this board, but trust me, I'm not bragging - it's often a curse, and it doesn't help me in life like you think it would. Hard work is much more of a result-getter than high intelligence. I am one lazy, underachieving, observant motherfucker.
On to my analysis: It seems to me that the moral variations among the participants in this conversation lead to different blind spots. I see where Esai and jah are coming from, and if you boil it down and skip the details, their beliefs and views probably stem from a frustration with this fact: Humans are smart enough and have the technology and money to clothe, feed and shelter their entire species, yet they continue to make war, make classes, make slaves, and hoard and squander resources. This seems to be a common liberal complaint, that we have the brains but lack the compassion to live harmoniously. The blindness of this view is an inadequate understanding of human nature: that humans are competitive, survival-oriented brutes, in whom greed and selfishness are at least partially programmed to aid natural selection, and these qualities do not vanish just because an individual, or a culture, has all it needs to live.
On the other side are people like Kabar, who grasp human nature better, but are content to lock up their worldly goods and defend them with guns, smug about being on today's winning team and not wasting much compassion on the losers, despite the sureness of the cycles of time: that empires rise and fall, and surely the US will someday be dust, or run by quite different landlords. Not in our lifetimes, is my guess - this country will last generations yet, and undergo changes I can't foresee. We're just Romans with the internet, at the peak of our empire.
I wind up mostly in Kabar's crowd out of pragmatism, and perhaps he does too. In a world you can't change, the logical objective is to look out for yourself and your own happiness, and that's easier in the US than a lot of other places, especially if you have a gluttonous appetite. I just have a weary contempt of most humans, sometimes myself included, and American stupidity is the easiest kind for me to sneer at because it's geographically handier than other kinds. I loathe stupidity, so I am obligated to be a misanthrope, an unusually smart specimen of an otherwise brutish and dumb race of beings. Then some days I feel more mellow and forgiving, that it's a miracle we have as much cooperation worldwide as we do. And who am I to judge the human race? I'm part of it.
I often see the earth from a great distance in my mind's eye, a big blue and green anthill, and off to the left (usually the left for some reason) the sun that will one day expand and fry most of the solar system to cinders, and both poison and motivation drain from my body. I just sit in a chair and watch 9-to-5ers in their bizarre rush, thinking them at least as strange as people who paint freight trains or train in terrorist camps or hawk Jesus to subway straphangers via pamphlets and a sandwich board. If you can't step back that far, you'll never understand America or Al Qaeda or yourself or the doofus you're arguing with on 12oz.
JIGSAW
07-17-2002, 03:44 AM
[img]http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~jbusby/images/america.jpg'> hahahahahaha
Shit i'd throw in my I dont agree but they have a reason to, comment but I'm just sick of discussing politics and this picture is good enough.....
Originally posted by Rogue23
JAH: seeing as how you are dropping all this knowledge and like bitchin so much why dont you offer some constructive ideas... for example if we are all so in the shits here in amerika and we do agree that though it may suck at best its still a hell of a lot better than everywhere else; what would you suggest be done to fix it? more to the point aside from preaching to the choir on an isolated chat what are you doing about this situation and what would you in your infinite wisdom have a buch of dumb fucks like us do? just curious.
well, one very slow and hopeless way of improving things might be trying to put things in perspective for brainwashed americans and people on 12 oz. a way to help clean up the environment (like i have suggested) would be alternative energy. solar, hydro, HEMP! i know everytime someone mentions hemp as a solution people think they are just idealist hippies who love weed. this is not the case. its proven that hemp can be used for a thousand different purposes that are all clean and much healthier for hte world. hemp can be made into a clean burning fuel, stirafoam (sp), plastic, linen (and almost any other material), paper, food (before it was banned across the world it was the most eaten food besides rice because of now nutricious and abundant it is/was), oils..... not to mention the medicinal uses of marijuana. hemp grows super fast, can be grown almost anywhere where theres life, and is easy as fuck to cultivate (a hell of a lot easier than trees which take a long ass time to grow too). weed is illegal because of hemp. not the other way around. all the major corporations in the world would virtually be useless and use shitloads of money. that is why it is illegal. is that sufficient for you for now? ive been up since 5 in the morning the last few days so im too tired to go through all the same shit over and over again. the point is that if other people actually thought of solutions something might get done. its funny that no one can think of anything. youre all brainwashed to think the system we have now is the best one possible and nothing can be done about the problems in the world. yeah. fuck you for your tone of voice rogue. you just come on here, talk shit, and dont say shit about he subject. its not hard to talk shit. try contributing something inteligent....
KaBar
07-17-2002, 09:22 AM
Jah---It's not that I'm too old (LOL) or too stupid to understand the things you've said or the ideas you've put forth. I understand them very well. And, thirty years ago, with a slightly different cast of characters, I was arguing your side about imperialism, American hegemony, cultural incrementalism and all the rest. It's not that I don't understand. It's that I disagree.
What Cracked had to say about the Roman Empire may be very true. Intellectually, I know that virtually no political entity lasts forever. It's a matter of time and social decay. Given the immuttable fact that technology has us on a rapid cultural and social roller coaster, it would not surprise me to discover that the decay of the U.S., like the decay of the Soviet Union, may be precipitous.
What you have difficulty seeing is that you may very well be calling down the thunder by hoping for a loss of American power and prestige. Do you imagine all this industry, all these chemical plants, the enormous cities, the military establishment will just pack it up and choose to start farming organically? When the Soviet Union collapsed, it resulted in ecological disaster of unprecedented proportions in Ukraine, around the Black Sea and other places. All those unpleasant industries are still there, still producing chemicals, still polluting, only now the Russian government is so weak and disjointed that there are no effective regulatory controls over them. Cowboy capitalism at it's unfettered worst.
You will be unhappy to hear that many on the extreme right wing agree with you on many of the points you raised. They are sort of hoping, with fingers crossed, that Armageddon is right around the corner, to eliminate the government that restrains them from operating openly and which validates their viewpoint that the U.S. is surrounded by villians and that the United Nations is the Devil incarnate.
I don't see the world in such terms. Much of the relationship between the U.S. and the rest of the world is based on commerce. They want what we're selling, we want some of what they are selling. In that regard, we are the Third World's best customer. They value our help and our business. We try to sell them things like democracy. Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.
kabar. i understand what you are saying very well. believe me, im not naive enough to think all those corporations and military powers are going to hand shit over to a bunch of whiney loudmouths who care about things that dont have to do with power and wealth. its obvious. all they care about is power and wealth. and theyre just supposed to give it up because someone else doesnt like it? no. thats quite clear to me. it still doesnt mean im okay with it. i know you understand what im saying, youre just too lazy to care enough anymore or something. plus being so close to the military has obviously influenced you and knocked a little foolish racism into you. you are too caught up in consumerism to want to let it go. like you said, as long as you can live the life you supposedly want (the life that everybody supposedly wants), you will. if you agreed with me again youd have to either live against your beliefs, or give up all the pointless luxuries you hold so dear. i cant say what would happen if hte US all of the sudden colapsed. no one can. maybe shit would get ten times more hectic than it already is. i dont care. someday, people are going to start thinking about the future or there will be no future. i would like a future for my kids and grandkids and their grandkids. i want to stop seeing the world rot away before my eyes. i grew up in southern oregon on a beautiful river. i used to swim in that river every summer and catch huge salmon and trout out of it. now theres oil (what a coinsidence) all over the place when the water level drops and you wont see a salmon in sight. i watched the mountain i grew up on get clearcut. every year the world gets dirtier and dirtier. its like the damage is exponential. im only 19 years old and ive seen shit get mad fucked up already and it gets worse and worse every year. you cant even swim in a lot of the water in santa cruz anymore. i watched beutiful land (some sacred land) on kauai get turned into lots in the two years i was there. these are just a tiny bit of the things that have affected ME. its alot worse out there for other people. call me a stupid hippie but i like animals. i like seeing them. i like interacting with them. the earth used to be a garden of eden. leave the fuckin fruit alone you greedy fucks (not anyone specifically but you know...). humans arent the only creatures on earth. we're fucking it up for everything. yes, ive been raised by hippies. i am not a hippie. i just care about a lot of the same things. if i was ahippie, i wouldnt be ashamed and i dont really give a fuck if any of you think i am. i know where i stand. my views will change im sure. but not to your views kabar. you seem like your intentions are good but your hearts in teh wrong place homie.
peace
Rogue23
07-18-2002, 03:52 AM
Jah...
first let me say that as shit talkin goes you hold the gold, I actually joined this site and set up a membership just to hear wether or not you had any solutions to all these problems and because I was tired of hearing you dis Kabar who has made some tight friends around here from some of his other posts...
much props to Kabar for all the rail knowledge and practical tips
my tone was simply a reflection of the conversation level I see you to have set. You asked me if your sugestion was sufficient... no I dont think it was... hemp is not unto itself a solution... its just one more comodity to be exploited... what makes you think they wont clear cut forest to plant hemp or reroute rivers to water it or poison oceans with the oils it produces or the fumes from the machinery that harvests and processes it... the only up side is that it will grow anywhere and is cheaper to deal with, that doesnt mean less impact... in the real world it means simply that more people can and will afford to enter the business along with the multinationals... so no its not a sufficent suggestion... when I asked you to speak up I had in mind a broader context one that will explain how to take the predatory instinct out of the human animal which is only a few thousand years out of the trees... your the one who said there was a problem and you sound like a relatively smart kid so I would expect you to be able to offer somthing a little more than
"one very slow and hopeless way of improving things".....
perhaps you should suggest that we just say fuck it as a technological race and run back to the forest and hide from our own intellect and growth as a race, ahh but then the travel I would geuss you hold dear as a freedom would be limited due to lack of vehicles etc... and you would end up on a farm in an agragrarian society (at best) living in the same sparse home with 3 generations of your family.... thats no good, not much freedom or creativity when you break your back all day hunting and gathering then have to go home to no light or computer to communicate with... doesnt sound very appealing and probably wont happen. Instead why dont we revolt and take the power we rightiously deserve... Im certain when our revolution happens it wont be corrupted as all former world or social revolutions have and I am positive no one will get power hungry and we will all get along smashingly in a zen anarchist hippe utopia of world bliss.... of course I could be wrong....
the harsh truth is this, you can go nowhere or do nothing without leaving a footprint of some sort... its simply not possible. if you move, no if you live you create and you destroy... Im sure our mensa poster child Cracked Ass would agree... its the nature of reality and one of the only truths in this world... another one of those truths is that the earth, and humans on it and the society they create; we create are a living organic creature unto itself and it can not exist with out creating and destroying anymore than you could live without breathing... all of these organic modules share this commonality and one other, they are all temporal and expire, no matter how much you bitch or prolong it we are all (including mother earth) cosmic worm food in the distant eventuality and any attempt to prevent or rationalize this is simply fear of a lack of permenance and meaning on part of the individual who feels that he needs to be heard or remembered.... maybe the only solution is for everyone to quit their bitching and belly aching and live their lives in a way that despite the shit they are living in makes them happier than they were instead fo trying to grab at what everyone else has.... a happy nut will fare better in an assylum than an angry bitter or sad one; believe me I know....
ofcourse as I said before I could be wrong. :D
girl-lies
07-18-2002, 04:27 AM
its been said 1 million times before.. fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
-MOE LESTER-
07-18-2002, 05:24 AM
damn you guys take shit to seriously...this sounds like a debate team or someshit....
Smart
07-18-2002, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by -MOE LESTER-
this sounds like a debate team or someshit....
28 and over VS 18 and under... A decade of ignorance exposed! -or- Welcome to the 21st Century!
Damn Im almost getting sick of this thread, but not yet.Cracked ass that was a damn good analysis on the stand points.I actually was semi conservative in my beliefs before I started school again and pondered the question of why we have a surplus of goods yet billions starve? Thats what begun me on my quest for the truth that still continues. No matter what I believed, i had the underlying resentment of being raised knowin that somehow I was getting screwed over. I mean my culture had flourished in the americas for thousands of years and now were reduced to slave labor and worse. Thats why feel that any conservetive view is either half assed and biased(cuz of personal benefits)or just ignorant. I set out with a clean slate and read a lot to find facts that pointed me in the direction that things aint right. Anyways, I must argue that man naturally acted in packs and tribes in the beginning, which means human nature has some semblence of cooperation and sharing in its essence. It seems Capitalism is based on competition which puts people in an unatural position, creating turmoil for many for the profit of a few.
Remi Martin
07-18-2002, 08:26 AM
I agree with Esai.
"It seems Capitalism is based on competition which puts people in an unatural position, creating turmoil for many for the profit of a few."
I find this mindset behind actions to be wrong. Therefore, I dont condone anything behind it. For lack of better words, shit is real fucked up. Fuck the man in charge, live morally for yourself with common sense and compassion twoards your fellow human.
rogue, hemp was one example. and it has potential to have a big impact on the world if used right. even if people develop it for the soul purpose of profit, mass producing it for fuel, paper, rubber, plastics, linens and other fabrics, food, and tons or smaller miscellaneas would have a big impact on the environment and economy. but that alone isnt going to save the world. solar energy is good, hydro, wind. why do you think travel wouldnt be possible. theres good enough technology to create clean means of travel.but alot more is going to have to change too. there does seem to be more people wisening up about weed. the prison system in the US is fucking ridiculous. they have way more people in prison than any other country in the world. over two million people. a lot of those people are in there are nonviolent criminals. what do you thinks gonna happen when a harmless person gets thrown in a cage with a bunch of thugs and other hardcore motherfuckers? hes going to adapt to his environment. hes going to come out a lot worse than when he went in. rehabilitation is a much better method. i know there are plenty of people that are too far gone or too crazy or violent to be rehabilitated but there are plenty in tere that could too. im not talking about violent criminals. im talking about criminals who do shit cus they dont really know what else to do or they have a lot of problems they dont know how to deal with. rehabilitation is no fun place. it would still be punishment but it could teach them how to fit into society better and they would most likely come out a lot better than when they went in, instead of worse. the education system needs improvement. they need to stop censoring the media; people need to know whats going on. if people only knew half the shit, a hell of a lot more would start making changes. they program dummies over there. they dont want people to know how to behave civily because they would wake up and realize that its retarded to spend so much money on pointless shit they dont need. consumerism is booming and a handfull of people are making astronomical amounts of money and gaining more and more power every year. anyway. i said i dont expect it to come and if it does it wont be too soon. maybe when it gets so bad people have to turn to something. i dont know. but consumerism, greed, ignorance, and arrogance arent helping anything. yeah, i think everyone on 12oz will remember me forever as knowledgeable good person for these posts man. thats why i come on here. the 70 people in the world that see this shit are gonna tell everyone they know, and everyone they know is going to tell everyone they know, and so fourth."i could be wrong." thats definitely my real motive behind writing page long posts to internet graff heads though. im sorry if i offended your pappy. man. sounds like you have everything all figured out anyway so im just going to stop wasting my breath on you guys and get some desperately needed sleep.
big PERM
07-18-2002, 02:48 PM
the fucking govt. even pays farmers to destroy surplus crops, what the fuck! i hate the world
imported_El Mamerro
07-18-2002, 05:06 PM
[img]http://www.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/goldmine/bumperstickers//EDGECRUSHER_band.jpg'>
8====D
07-18-2002, 05:32 PM
:king:
that's tight el mamerro, whered you get that at? I would make those into stickers all over the place.
Rogue23
07-19-2002, 12:09 AM
Study your sociology boys and girls, its all school yard politics...
we did not form tribes out of some need to be brothers or a desire for cooperation. tribes were formed as a means of protection and keeping out the wild and insuring the sucess of the tribe even and sometimes especially at the expense of others. sure we have a need to be around others like us but that invariably wether it be a tribe, a schoolyard club, a multinational business or a political structure. we are simply pack animals and it is a very thin strand of dna that seperates the business man or corporate leader from a tribal elder who is hungry for power.
this is our nature and we should do the best we can within our system to survive and thrive... but as for mass change dont hold your breath, just do your thing and try to make litle improvments wherever you can.
"you must be the change you wish to see in the world" Mahatma G.
Jah: just out of curiosity (and an undefinable burning desire to antagonize you) you said that you posted here in hopes of being remembered.... were you serious about that? just proves what I was saying about the need for us to be remembered when were gone... mortals constantly seeking imortality due to a fear of death. if you really want to be remembered youd better get a lot louder and in a much more noticable position than just one of a million kids just like you reachin for props anonomously from one of a thousand electronic communities. just a suggestion.
Brownbread?
07-19-2002, 02:05 AM
damn this thread is gonna go on forever.i think it should have been closed after what Cracked Ass said cause it was the only thing that made sense. cause it's just a battle between one extreme and another extreme. both saying how blind the other is.
whydontyudie
07-19-2002, 02:15 AM
shoudlnt we be sitting ina low rent apartment with some kids who dont shower a couple of lonestar beers and girls with mohawks?
whydontyudie
07-19-2002, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by El Mamerro
[img]http://www.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/goldmine/bumperstickers//EDGECRUSHER_band.jpg'>
thats awesome you nerd
bnut seriously i want that sticker
Originally posted by Rogue23
Jah: just out of curiosity (and an undefinable burning desire to antagonize you) you said that you posted here in hopes of being remembered.... were you serious about that? just proves what I was saying about the need for us to be remembered when were gone... mortals constantly seeking imortality due to a fear of death. if you really want to be remembered youd better get a lot louder and in a much more noticable position than just one of a million kids just like you reachin for props anonomously from one of a thousand electronic communities. just a suggestion.
lol. at least you say it in a funny way. sorry to spoil your fun bro but i was trying to b e about as sarcastic as i could. do you think i really believe people on 12 oz take me seriously or are really going to listen to anything i say, let alone spread the ideas? hahaha. no no no. i thought throwing in, "i could be wrog" would make it more obvious i was joking. i am not seeking imortality in the least. death is my peace. as it is all of yours.
later
KaBar
07-19-2002, 07:22 PM
Well, even though we have not reached any middle ground, it's been a hell of a good thread, and I think both "sides" (if there is such a thing in a debate like this) have made good points. I'd like to say that some of my posts early on were a little too extreme. I have a (sometimes regrettable) tendency to post late at night when I'm tipping the paisano jug, and while sometimes it creates juice, sometimes it doesn't. As this whole terrorism thing plays out, I think we will all see things that shock and disappoint us. War is bad. But sometimes necessary. Sometimes the "powers that be" manipulate the situation to score points, on both sides. All that aside, I enjoyed this thread a lot.
well, looks like we completely agree on the closing statement (if this is it). i have to say that some of my (quite a few) posts were a little extreme too. not so much in the ideas i expressed, but the way that i presented them. i got a little too into it sometimes and i said some harsh things.
kabar, if you want to get into another intellectual thread, go to "cracked's manifesto". its almost like a continuation of this but its goes way off into other subjects. but equally enticing to me and very interesting.
Smart
07-19-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Rogue23
we are simply pack animals
NO NO NO! Humans don't have a pack instinct, dogs have a pack instinct...
Rogue23
07-19-2002, 11:21 PM
Smart:
would that be a note of sarcasim I detect?
Jah: cool, glad to hear it, I was a little concerned. sorry if I came off a little strong. I think we are all looking for the same thing just getting at it in different ways. I sincerely hope I am wrong about this being an ongoing problem and that we do grow enough as a race to rise above it.
This world needs all the optimists it can get. its been fun,
kind of a sick pseudointellectual fight club :beat:
KRONOLOGIK
07-20-2002, 01:06 AM
Fuck it
Ted Wakowski
07-20-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by KaBar
Ted Wakowski---Well, you can be like that, and that's okay. But personally, I think you need some broader horizons. Why not travel to someplace (relatively) close and sort of more-or-less Third World? I suggest El Salvador. You can get there by air from Miami or Houston and it's not so far away that if things really went to shit, or if you got real sick, you couldn't get home pretty quick. Go check it out, Ted. Then come back and tell me how much the U.S. sucks, how we're all insensitive assholes, spoiled rotten, etc., etc. You need some Real World therapy, and I don't mean MTV. Go on. Go have an adventure. You'll see.
I went to Okinawa with the Marine Corps. When I arrived back in the States, to El Toro Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, CA., I got down on my hands and knees and KISSED THE RUNWAY I was so glad to be home. Go ahead. Go check out the rest of the world. Better remember to take your amoxicillin and your malaria pills though.
I'm late but feel like responding to a few things you wrote anyway.
I didn't write much in this thread but the the few things I put down seemed to lead off on the wrong foot. My viewpoint is different, I think, from what you've made it out to be. I haven't labeled Americans as "insensitive assholes" who are "spoiled rotten," nor have I made such a broad generalization as to declare that the "U.S. sucks." I love this country, and I love a great deal of the principles it was founded on. Unfortunately as much as obviously, I don't think those principles are consistently upheld, and I generally find the nation's founding itself to be completely contradictory to the essence of what "The American Dream" ideally represents, but that kind of shit is old news. Most Americans, from what I've noticed, are aware of certain shortcomings within their past and present. I'm no exception, although I might hold stronger opinions than others.
Specifically relating to your posts, I can agree, to some extent, with one of your strongest points: a lot of domestic anti-american sentiment revolves around a lack of first-hand experience. The critical American who might dismiss patriotism altogether and demand a more "compassionate" or fully liberal order of government probably hasn't tasted their own freedom until they've choked on the often brutal reality of a life outside the spectrum of Western ideology.
That notion I would support.
Where I really start to disagree is with the image you're trying to project of America and its relationship with the rest of the world. While I can make some sense of the point you're heading towards in saying that many third-world or developing countries "choose to be poor," it still seems too one-sided and finger-pointish for me to accept. Maybe I'm just being too naive here, but there seems to be a complex system of oppression, exploitation, hopelessness, laziness, frustration, violence, politics, religious conflict, ignorance and war all bundled together that have helped maintain the "third-world" state of different impoverished and struggling nations for as long as America has been a superpower.
I also disagree with the picture you're painting of a third-world social apathy consciously seperating itself from the established reign of a more Westernized civilization, this sort of living hell of its own accord united in misery by a collective choice to be unamerican. Again, there seems to be a lot more going on beneath the surface than an outright "choice" to live such a difficult life. The position of blame I side with is in noticing the ways America fans the fires of struggle in underdeveloped countries by abusing its own power and capitalizing off of other people's hardships. This may be part of a "harsh real world" that I have yet to undertsand, and protesting it may be a cliche stance to take, but the fact remains, America, like so many other nations from history back up to the present, can do as much bad as it can good, and will most likely continue to do so until the last Happy Meal and inexpensive piece of undeveloped land has been purchased and consumed. I simply chose to disagree with it on the basis of who I am as a person of certain beliefs.
For the most part, I try and season my opinions with a sense of well-roundedness by looking at political and social issues from all sides. However, I ultimately tend to cling to what would probably be labeled more "liberal" or "leftist" points of view in the hopes of subverting my own unguided pessimism and finding something more within myself than typically over-confident American arrogance. Of course, like you say, I'm a young guy, and my views will surely change and mold over time, so it's possible you might one day find me trumpeting an American flag from my picket-fenced front lawn and demonizing anyone who would dare attack my blessed nation while charring up a few hot dogs and playfully squirting lighter fluid at "Walter," the family dog. Who knows.
As far as calling you a redneck, I didn't, I just pointed out that the "fuck-em-all-and-let-'em-rot" mentality you portrayed struck me as something I'd expect out of a typical "redneck's" mouth. Sorry for being a dick, I respect you as an entertaining internet personality and a person who's older and wiser than myself.
KaBar
07-21-2002, 01:24 AM
You are a very articulate guy, and I think that you probably have a gift for expressing things clearly, consisely and succinctly. I'm guessing you're in college. At least I hope you are, because if you aren't , we (as a society) are not doing the right thing. Anyone who can write this well should receive a university education.
Sometimes I find myself venting and posting opinions and ideas that are probably left better unexpressed. When I say that Third World nations "choose" to be poor, obviously I'm not saying that every single person in a given country is making a concious choice of poverty--but in the long run, countries that do not educate their children to think for themselves, or who use a public school system to indoctrinate children are choosing to create a population twelves years hence that lacks he essential ability to create a constitutional republic, with a democratic form of government. Without that foundation, modern capitalism cannot long survive. For a banking system to exist, people must be able to trust the central bank. For sustainable industry, agriculture, energy distribution, etc. to exist, there must be a VALID social contract. Outside of the Americas and Western Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, etc. this cannot be said to exist. People in Third World nations do not want their life savings in rupees, rubles or pesos. They want American dollars, German DM, British pounds or possible Japanese yen. Where we find a stable, valuable, desireable currency, we find a stable, desireable government. This is what the Third World needs, and it starts with elementary school. I wish every government around the world could understand that. It's not about capital investment or a socialized means of production. It's about elementary school.
Ted Wakowski
07-21-2002, 09:45 AM
Thanks for being cool. Unfortunately I'm a bit too intoxicated to dive into a discussion of the stuff you mentioned with much clarity. Next time, I guess.
As far as universities go, I'm just a graf writer with an obnoxious chip on my shoulder. A good student I doubt I'd make.
I Luv Roo
07-21-2002, 10:09 AM
Kabar -
I went to school in India, so I want to speak a bit from personal experience:
Anyway, I went to school there from grade 3 through 10th. It was a boarding school, and it taught in English, and the level of education was very high, and although not a public school, not a very fancy one either. Every time I came home, my parents would have me and my sisters take an equivalency test (I think it was required), and we always came out three, four sometimes six grades ahead. The level of teaching in math and science was far more advanced than highschools in the US, even the private ones. I gained an utterly amazing elementary school and highschool education - AND I now know two foreign languages! I went on to college after tenth grade, and did far above average.
To me, I wouldn't trade it for anything - even though our lifestyle was third world, with no hot water, no heat (and we were in the himalayas), and sporatic electricity - we had a priceless upbringing in a world and culture vastly different from our own. Our diet was ideal: all vegetarian, consisting mostly of rice, vegetables, and legumes - plus extra yummy other indian treats. We were skinny, but we were healthy, and I have to say that my immune system is like steel (I did go through sicknesses and disease at times too though). I LOVED coming home to the luxuries of America, but I treasured the experience of being on my own when I was that young.
It wasn't all rosey for sure. But I got a more than decent education. I can't say that all Indians get a good education, they definitely don't. There is a HUGE population, and the gap between rich and poor is widely visible. The caste system still lingers in the villages, and curses future generations. But, politically, they are not so different than us here in the US. There are many corrupt officials, and many who do good things for the people.
But the education on a whole is above par for US standards, that much I know, and since you were talking about education, I thought I'd tell you about it. In my opinion, our own educational system is heading in a downward spiral - and it's picking up momentum! Kids these days are in trouble.
roo, im sorry im way too tired and lazy right now to read your whole post. but from what i read, thats fuckin cool as hell. my dads going to india in a couple months. i wish i could go but i have courses i need to go to. sounds like you know whatsup....
APTOS
06-21-2007, 04:01 AM
i luv terriosts they have done nothing wrong
trainkilla
06-30-2007, 05:08 AM
I was charged with street terrorism among other things when i got caught writing. I'm like this. U.S. should counterattack terrorism with terrorism. We could lace up the desert with landmines or some mad poisinous biogenetically engineered spider and let em loose then poison there camels water supply with syphillis...... boom right there we just totally restricted our oppositions movements then its all computers and missiles from there. next do that to every other country and then americans will be come the super-race and will control the world.
beansandrice
09-23-2007, 05:01 PM
americans have used terrorism for areally long time, in fact they atre maybe the most effective terrorists in the world..true story
Dawood
09-25-2007, 11:47 AM
I was charged with street terrorism among other things when i got caught writing. I'm like this. U.S. should counterattack terrorism with terrorism. We could lace up the desert with landmines or some mad poisinous biogenetically engineered spider and let em loose then poison there camels water supply with syphillis...... boom right there we just totally restricted our oppositions movements then its all computers and missiles from there. next do that to every other country and then americans will be come the super-race and will control the world.
yeah, that's what we should do.:rolleyes:
yumone
09-25-2007, 01:04 PM
I was charged with street terrorism among other things when i got caught writing. I'm like this. U.S. should counterattack terrorism with terrorism. We could lace up the desert with landmines or some mad poisinous biogenetically engineered spider and let em loose then poison there camels water supply with syphillis...... boom right there we just totally restricted our oppositions movements then its all computers and missiles from there. next do that to every other country and then americans will be come the super-race and will control the world.
if you're an example of an american that aint no super race chump
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