Confederate Flag

[Canadiano]

What's the deal? What the fuck is wrong with it? Why the hell do they want it off certain buildings? Why was Bodice hated on 'cuz she owned one? Why is it so taboo?

I think it's an awsome looking flag, and if I was a Southerner, I'd rock that shit all over.


I'm not white, nor were my ancestors slaves.

You can't say it represents slavery, 'cuz it doesn't make sense. I'm out - I'll be back to grade you.
[img]http://www.cultural-expressions.com/thesis/confederate.gif'>

[--zeSto--]

I found one in my house while cleaning.
It looks really old and it's not your average cheapo-gas-station flag.

I'm not about to put it up in the window,
but I'm not going to burn it.

after all....
One day the south will rise again.

[nomadawhat]

damn, where are you from? Canada or someshit? That flag was one of several confederate battle flags used by the racist south back in the days of the civil war. After the war the flag was used by many extremist hate groups such as the kkk to represent white domination over african americans.

[postaholic]

^^^^^^^^^^^

:lol:

nothing is wrong with it man... it just signifies that youre a white supremicist and you love killing black folks for growing up on hiphop and that you were a slave trader in your past life, and that you think blacks are good for nothing except pickin' tha rich white mans cotton of his fields and not paying them...

you bastard mutha fucker you!!!!

JUST KIDDING. :D :D :D

but fuck that flag anyways... people always trying to claim some other shit...

[kissmyass#1]

people need to stop worry about a dumb flag. we need to focus on killing innocent people in other countries. yet, i remember that i dont really give a fuck.

[seeking]

so by your rational, theres nothing wrong with germany continuing to use the swastika as its national symbol? that jews, russians, italians and gypseys shouldnt feel any alienation, sorrow, or anger when they see the flag flying above their government buildings?
that they will be able to remove the fact that under its rule, 13 million people were murdered?

100 million africans died or were murdered during the slave trade, dont tell me the flag that the slave owners chose to represent themselves, doesnt still carry that debt on its back.

[juggernaut]

it's a symbol of america's early stupidity regarding the right to own slaves, and therefore i think it's really embarassing. it represents how far the southern states took the fight for slavery.
unfortunately, racist americans have adopted the flag to show which side of the civil rights fence they stand on, to this day.

[Smart]

yeah, and another thing, what's so bad about the Nazi flag? Why is Nazi paraphenallia illegal over there?

The Nazi's were dope...:mad:

[seeking]

no man, butterflys and kittens are dope.

[img]http://www.wtv-zone.com/mimisplace3/globes/kittens.gif'>

[d-town_bomber]

its not about how it looks, its about what it represents

[alabama]

yeah....so, being where im from, you can imagine that the flag is highly visible...and it is. you catch it on license plates, car windows, in peoples yards, etc.... and yeah, its also still used by the klan and other white supremacist groups....but those people are all fucking morons...and theyre spread all over the country, not just in the south....as far as it being a symbol of hate, thats the way its perceived, and it probably always will be...
the thing is though, that not all people who take pride in the flag are racist...some are just proud to be from the south....hell, lots of punk rock kids and the few writers here rock that shit on beltbuckles and flyers.....like myself, im into collecting some confederate shit, but im by NO MEANS a racist....just proud to be from my area (despite all the terrible shit that our ancestors did)....in the long run though, shits not gonna change....people are always going to find something to bitch about, and in all actuality, i guess they probably have a good reason....

[platapie]

rebels rule! i liek the dam thing

[drunken phil]

Originally posted by alabama
yeah....so, being where im from, you can imagine that the flag is highly visible...and it is. you catch it on license plates, car windows, in peoples yards, etc.... and yeah, its also still used by the klan and other white supremacist groups....but those people are all fucking morons...and theyre spread all over the country, not just in the south....as far as it being a symbol of hate, thats the way its perceived, and it probably always will be...
the thing is though, that not all people who take pride in the flag are racist...some are just proud to be from the south....hell, lots of punk rock kids and the few writers here rock that shit on beltbuckles and flyers.....like myself, im into collecting some confederate shit, but im by NO MEANS a racist....just proud to be from my area (despite all the terrible shit that our ancestors did)....in the long run though, shits not gonna change....people are always going to find something to bitch about, and in all actuality, i guess they probably have a good reason....
dude where are you? the only place i ever go when im in the states is alabama. mobile and birmingham. i need someone to show me around. hit me up on aim: partialminded
~PUkE

[vinyl junkie]

i was in this tattoo shop a couple weeks ago, and one of the tattooers was telling me about the black guy that came in wanting a confederate flag tattooed... when the tattooer said he wouldn't do it the guy then asked if he would tattoo his girlfriend (of 2 weeks) 's name on his neck... it was funny stuff...

[willy.wonka]

butterflies and kittens......cool

[willy.wonka]

i'll tell you one thing...mapo makes me want to become the first brown boy to throw on the pointy hood and wave that flag around.

[Ferris Bueller]

I don't have a problem if the flag is being flown to represent a southern state or in any other tasteful manner...

I really hate it when people assume that all it fucking symbolizes is racism, KKK, slavery, cotton, and good ole boys. I don't mind those people as long as they keep it to themselves, but if they want to have a fucking argument about it, they can get the dilznick anyday of the week. Word.

I hate the good ole boys that fly it out the back of their truck. Dumbasses.

[Mr. Mang]

Originally posted by seeking
so by your rational, theres nothing wrong with germany continuing to use the swastika as its national symbol? that jews, russians, italians and gypseys shouldnt feel any alienation, sorrow, or anger when they see the flag flying above their government buildings?
that they will be able to remove the fact that under its rule, 13 million people were murdered?

100 million africans died or were murdered during the slave trade, dont tell me the flag that the slave owners chose to represent themselves, doesnt still carry that debt on its back.


i couldn't have said it better myself.

[boogie hands]

Originally posted by Canadiano
You can't say it represents slavery, 'cuz it doesn't make sense. I'm out - I'll be back to grade you.

look....i was going to come with a sarcastic comment on this one but sarcasim cant even hang with the retarded ass comment posted above...

at least get a little education on the subject before you go talking out of your ass......alright???

[uncle-boy]

Originally posted by platapie
rebels rule! i liek the dam thing

[-MOE LESTER-]

i hate that flag

[ledzep]

Originally posted by seeking

[img]http://www.wtv-zone.com/mimisplace3/globes/kittens.gif'>

if this would be the confedarate flag, people would be against it.


but honestly lots of cool symbols and flags have bad meanings or ideas behind them, for example, the confedarate flag, swastikas, the pentogram, the mcdonalds M....

you could say that it is an embodiment of american closed mindedness in the 17 and 1800s, but isnt it closedminded also to be hating on a somebody because he thinks the flag is cool?

[imported_suburbian bum]

I DUnno its kinda like rocking the U.S.S.R flag (which i think is a dope fucking flag) people are going to associate it with things. End of story.

[willy.wonka]

http://www.kriegste.de/revolution/kkk.jpg
http://www.corsophotos.com/images/KKK.jpg

[THEdude]

make your own flag.........................





with all the rainbow colors and shit on it..................






it would look good on you
seriously

[Kr430n5_666]

http://www.damnage.com/images/embraced.gif

[dahighlifdhl]

flag is a flag
what you associate with it is youre problem
i see people fighting to defend their beliefs
good or bad
they stood up againts the gorvenment

[Smart]

you idiot, a flag is not a 'flag'...

a flag, EVERY flag, is a visual embodiment of a movement or an idea, that's the entire point of having a flag! It's a symbol that represents an ideology, forever to be associated and never to be DISassociated with, mostly, political viewpoints...

any of you who think a flag, American or otherwise, is just some piece of cloth obviously have the mental maturity of a 7 year old.

[Pistol]

[img]http://pistol.fuccyou.com/12oz/communazi.gif'>

[IntangibleFame]

Originally posted by Smart
you idiot, a flag is not a 'flag'...
a flag, EVERY flag, is a visual embodiment of a movement or an idea.

Nuff said....:rolleyes:

[krie]

Originally posted by seeking
no man, butterflys and kittens are dope.

[img]http://www.wtv-zone.com/mimisplace3/globes/kittens.gif'>


hahaha worddd

[NATO]

Originally posted by Pistol
[img]http://pistol.fuccyou.com/12oz/communazi.gif'>

this is the first thing ive ever seen on the internet that's ever made me laugh out loud. :king:

[sneak]

^^ i wouldnt say the first thing ive seen on the net...those german shit movies made me wet myself when i saw em for the first time, but either way thats funny.

[I Luv Roo]

Lynrd Skynrd used the confederate flad on their album covers.

Take it in context. I don't think Lynrd Skynrd were racists, just proud to be from the south.

The KKK hang the confederate flag, but they also wear a costume that is FAR more symbolic of hate. Same with the Nazis. They took a symbol used in a number of cultures far older than the 20th century: India, Tibet, Navajo. It communicated welcome & brotherhood and the Nazis twisted it's meaning into control and hate by their awful actions - to them the symbol is a good thing, and meant the same as the others, but their actions told another story.

In India I used to see swastikas painted all over the place and I was so confused until I learned its original meaning. Now I understand the difference and can interpret each one through it's context.

[Canadiano]

So here is my response: (i use this when certain weed smoking vegan hipsters talk about burning the canadian flag)

The flag does not represent your country, it should represent what you want your country to be.

that being said, I'd have to agree with screenname alabama. He is proud of his area, whether for geographic reasons, or societal reasons. Hell, my country has done some bad shit to the natives, the chinese, amonst others, but that doesn't stop me from loving Canada.

how many of you americans hate your government but love your country?

unless you're one of those anti-nationalism people, you gotta love your country's flag*.


and didn't the swastika represent Hitler's Germany? * That's just one period in time, where that swastika represented pure evil.



You know what sucks? my mom got a beautiful sari from India a few years ago (it was sent to her) that had golden swastikas all over it, and she couldn't even wear it here, just because of this bullshit stigma around it in this part of the world. *It shouldn't be like that.

so boogie hands, who's the retard now? seeking, you're wrong. one shouldn't let a few stupid apples ruin a good thing.

[Kr430n5_666]

[img]http://www.damnage.com/images/zerohour.gif'>

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by seeking
so by your rational, theres nothing wrong with germany continuing to use the swastika as its national symbol? that jews, russians, italians and gypseys shouldnt feel any alienation, sorrow, or anger when they see the flag flying above their government buildings?
that they will be able to remove the fact that under its rule, 13 million people were murdered?

100 million africans died or were murdered during the slave trade, dont tell me the flag that the slave owners chose to represent themselves, doesnt still carry that debt on its back.



Your logic is very fuzzy seeking.

Firstly, the swastika represented NAZIS, not germany. Germany has its own flag. A beeter comparison would be this symbol:
[img]http://www.internationalgiftitems.com/images/Magnets/Souvenir%20Magnets/Germany/1.Page/Dland_Crest_next.JPG'>

People still associate it with the nazis, but its far older than that.





All this "the confederate flag was used by evil racists" shit is daft. WE ALL KNOW the north only freed the slaves to force the confederates to return to their farms. The American flag has just as much shit attatched to it. Anyflag can be a hate symbol in the wrong hands

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Armenhammer




but honestly lots of cool symbols and flags have bad meanings or ideas behind them, for example, the confedarate flag, swastikas, the pentogram, the mcdonalds M....




Oh yeah - pentagrams are regarded either as satanic OR as a kiddie-rocker joke. But for some people that is a highly potent religious symbol.


The intent is more important than the symbol

[nomadawhat]

"Hell, my country has done some bad shit to the natives, the chinese, amonst others, but that doesn't stop me from loving Canada. "


no one saying that they don't love their country, just what that symbol has come to represent. Lets say when your country did these atrocities (sp?) to these ethnic groups they began to use the maple leaf as a sign of oppression, a symbol of holding people down and a symbol of white power over the natives and chinese. A number of people would then associate the maple leaf with that from then on out leaving many sour feelings for people, yet some would still see it as a sign of national heritage, leaving an open ended debate on weather the symbol should be used for its first intended purpose (a national symbol) or not used b/c it can be associated with a time of pain and suffering for others. kapish?

[jah]

what kinda shit do you learn up in the land of the maple leaf?

[Canadiano]

nomadawat, my country is still fucking around. i have cops pulling me over for no reason constantly, among a million other things. i still love the nation. like i said, it doesn't matter on history, or what your government is about. it is about YOUR love for your country, and how YOU want it to be. sure, another proud Canadian may want all Jamaicans kicked out...

[dukeofyork]

so if you shave your head you are a skinhead and a racist then?



i dont get it...
:confused:

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by chozer
so if you shave your head you are a skinhead and a racist then?



i dont get it...
:confused:

yeah, that was INDEED argued by the same people in a different thread...........................

[BIG T]

"american by birth... southern by the grace of god"

at least that is what all of the bumper stickers down here say.

i see nothing wrong with all the good ol' rednecks down here rocking it on the back of the pick up as they drive around town. it really is just a southern pride thing around these parts, not a racist thing... but that is just what i have noticed since i moved th the south...

[Matthew13]

For some reason the Post Office in Reno NV has Swashi's engraved all in the tables and shit...it's all real old steel furniture..there's a story behind it, but i forget. Think about it.

matthewthey'reconvictingDAniellVanDamme'skillerasi typethirteen.

[mental invalid]

"I'll be back to grade you. "


you can give me an F, im not gonna waste my time........

[nomadawhat]

Originally posted by Canadiano
nomadawat, my country is still fucking around. i have cops pulling me over for no reason constantly, among a million other things. i still love the nation. like i said, it doesn't matter on history, or what your government is about. it is about YOUR love for your country, and how YOU want it to be. sure, another proud Canadian may want all Jamaicans kicked out...

We aren't talking about love for a country, we are talking about the friggin' confederate flag and then later about symbology and how a symbol can mean different things to different people. So since the police harrass your, you probably associate their symbol, (a badge or whatever) with some sort of oppression and say 'fuck the police'. While another person may say 'I love the police, they are great!'.

[Canadiano]

which all relates back to the confederate flag, nomad.



i don't get what you're trying to say.

[Canadiano]

Originally posted by nomadawhat
So since the police harrass your, you probably associate their symbol, (a badge or whatever) with some sort of oppression and say 'fuck the police'. While another person may say 'I love the police, they are great!'.

i may hate a lot of police officers, but the idea of police is good, to me. Therefore will I never associate the badge with oppression. I'd rather be more creative than that.

[nomadawhat]

Originally posted by Canadiano
Confederate Flag
What's the deal? What the fuck is wrong with it? Why the hell do they want it off certain buildings? Why was Bodice hated on 'cuz she owned one? Why is it so taboo?



I am trying to help you answer your damn questions. The symbol represnts alot of oppression to alot of people mainly within the USA, that is what is wrong with it, that is why the want it off certain building, thats why bodice was hated on cuz' she owned one and that is why it is so taboo!!!! But at the same time to a smaller amount of peolpe it represents southern pride. Stay with the fucking conversation.

[Canadiano]

okay, okay, sheesh!:rolleyes:

lighten up, man. Smoke a cigarette.

I hear you, and you answer my questions, but I guess I already knew all that. I asked those questions so I could see what people's opinions are, and see if we could delve deeper into the subject. I was looking for arguments that justified a reason to keep the flag up and around (and not being hated on), or to take it down (because it's hated on). I think it should be a source of pride and nothing else to Southerners, and I guess you think that it is all relative, and always will be. But do you think it should be?

[imported_iphs]

ok this is one of the few times i’m going to comment...
there’s allot of ignorance surrounding the confederate flag which meaning takes root during the american civil war.. for one it was not fought for slavery, and lincoln could give a fuck less- it was fought to keep the union together, and as lincoln said if i could keep the union together without freeing a single slave i would, but if i have to free all the
slaves i will...
the confederate flag for the south stood for the right for self-government and to protect a way of life- basically the same reasons the american revolution was fought for but anyway
read up..
in no way does that justify,or excuse slavery and death upon death- but the confederate flag has come to symbolize something that in essence it truly isn’t due to -- aah fuck it..
i’m tired..
we see what we want to see....
and they only tell us what they want us to know.

[nomadawhat]

^^^ naw man, i hate the damn thing. to me it represents the negative. but if it symbolizes southern pride to someone with nothing else, none of the negative, then though i may not agree, to each their own, i'm not a 'my way or the highway' type person. but at the same time that person needs to realize that people may question thier beliefs or may get the wrong idea about them.

oh and i don't smoke cigs, maybe i could use a drink though.....

[Sarah Tonin]

over here people rock those "NO FEAR" stickers which is sometimes racist cuz its stands for National Organization For European American Rights which is David Duke's lil group he has goin on.

[mafIAkilla]

a few points.....
-the confederate flag was not the official flag of the confederate states,rather just a flag to carry into battle
-the civil war was almost not at all fought over slavery,rather a group of states' rights to form their own country (which is exactly what the american revolution was fought over)
-thomas jefferson,the man that wrote the words "all men are created equal",owned the most slaves in virginia,as did many of the founding fathers,but the american flag is not seen as racist or oppressive
-i fly the flag to represent southern heritage and pride in where i come from,yet i am a very open minded and cultured individual,as many people that fly the flag are
-first amendment rights grant me the freedom to do this.....

[Grandola]

fuck what people say or think, especially some kids on the net. sure, you might get your ass beat one day for having that flag around, but if you don't give a fuck, neither do i, neither do i...

to each their own...

[ctrl+alt+del]

"duuuh hey! who you callin a redneck! "
[img]http://spasemunkie.kicks-ass.net/images/redneck.jpg'>

[KING BLING]

[img]http://64.224.111.156/ShopSite/media/nationwide.jpg'>

ghetto pass revoked bitch, fuck all flags

[TRUE]

If your solely talking about all the negative history surrounding a flag then this one tops the confederate flag.
[img]http://www.kxtv.com/images/Community/american-flag.gif'>
(note: I'm not putting america down, I am a proud american.)

[Grandola]

Originally posted by TRUE
If your solely talking about all the negative history surrounding a flag then this one tops the confederate flag.
[img]http://www.kxtv.com/images/Community/american-flag.gif'>
(note: I'm not putting america down, I am a proud american.)


oooo shit... he gots a point.

Originally posted by seeking
so by your rational, theres nothing wrong with germany continuing to use the swastika as its national symbol? that jews, russians, italians and gypseys shouldnt feel any alienation, sorrow, or anger when they see the flag flying above their government buildings?
that they will be able to remove the fact that under its rule, 13 million people were murdered?

100 million africans died or were murdered during the slave trade, dont tell me the flag that the slave owners chose to represent themselves, doesnt still carry that debt on its back.

seeking 100 million? there are only about 300 million people in the US today. if there were 100 million who were killed, what about the living. they are called a minority because there aren't as many.

[T.T Boy]

Originally posted by Smart
? Why is Nazi paraphenallia illegal over there?

:

well the german people are so ashamed of the past they dont want to see that ever again.

aaaaaaaaaand there are swastikas painted all over the streets of italy.

[Smart]

Originally posted by T.T Boy


well the german people are so ashamed of the past they dont want to see that ever again.

aaaaaaaaaand there are swastikas painted all over the streets of italy.

Right, and in America we plaster the Rebel flag on the back window of the pick up and shout "The South Shall Rise Again!!!"

Also, it is fair to point out that in countries like the ROI and UK the rebel flag is seen as just that, a symbol of defiance, as opposed to a symbol of oppression.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Smart


Also, it is fair to point out that in countries like the ROI and UK the rebel flag is seen as just that, a symbol of defiance, as opposed to a symbol of oppression.


I think its becoming that in many places, because unlike the swastika, its pretty easy to see that the people under it weren't any worse than their opponents. The civil war wasn't really about the slaves at all.....................................

[Smart]

why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country

On the deepest level the war of seccession was the battle between an outdated and corrupt econimic system vs. the birth of the industrial revolution (YEAH LUDDITES!)... Also, on a bit more surface level, it was a war to determine the rights of states to choose their own laws and not be controlled by some fat cats in Washington, the 'powder keg' issue? SLAVERY!

Just because you all got old enough to finally comprehend and be taught the OTHER reasons that led up to the Civil War, don't be so arrogant as to assume slavery had nothing to do with it. The slavery issue was pivotal...

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Smart
why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country



No.


damn that was easy

[mental invalid]

i guess its a good thing you didnt need to know american history to get into art school...................the second time around, huh?



dam that was easier........:lol:

[alabama]

that dude with the flaming beer tower looks cool as shit!!!! I'd love to kick it with that guy...

[mafIAkilla]

Originally posted by Smart
why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country

On the deepest level the war of seccession was the battle between an outdated and corrupt econimic system vs. the birth of the industrial revolution (YEAH LUDDITES!)... Also, on a bit more surface level, it was a war to determine the rights of states to choose their own laws and not be controlled by some fat cats in Washington, the 'powder keg' issue? SLAVERY!

Just because you all got old enough to finally comprehend and be taught the OTHER reasons that led up to the Civil War, don't be so arrogant as to assume slavery had nothing to do with it. The slavery issue was pivotal...
this war was fought over states rights to govern themselves.....quoting abraham lincol to the house of representatives on jan 12,1848 "any people,anywhere,being inclined,and having the power,have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form one that suits them better".....northerners owned just as many slaves as southerners did,giving them a vested interest in slavery. do you think they would have waged a war over slavery if that in turn meant that their slaves would be emancipated?i think not.....

[Smart]

Originally posted by mafIAkilla

this war was fought over states rights to govern themselves.....quoting abraham lincol to the house of representatives on jan 12,1848 "any people,anywhere,being inclined,and having the power,have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form one that suits them better".....

Execpt the confederate states right? I don't think that quote means what you think it does... But if you think you can use it to somehow prove that Lincoln approved of the Confederacy or slavery, then, by all means...

The Lincoln Quote of the week: "The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the masters of your own negroes."

Originally posted by mafIAkilla
northerners owned just as many slaves as southerners did,giving them a vested interest in slavery. do you think they would have waged a war over slavery if that in turn meant that their slaves would be emancipated?i think not.....

You think WRONG... the northern states didn't own slaves on ANYWHERE near the scale of the southern plantation owners... You obviously know nothing about the war and absolutely nothing about the 50 or so years that led up to it...

sit down

[kissmyass#1]

[img]http://www.whfs.com/images/archives/fellspoint2001/sunday/beertruck.jpg'>

[KaBar]

I really ought to know better than to get into this debate, but here goes:
First of all, very few Soutrherners owned slaves. They were very expensive, costing between $800 to $1,500 for a healthy young man. Women and children went for less, because their ability to produce was less. The average wage for a working-class white man in 1850 was about a dollar a day. So I doubt very many white families owned many slaves. Some of the larger farms that owned none might have rented them out from larger plantations, though. Slavery was extremely inefficient. The owner was required to feed them even in the winter when there was considerably less work to be done. The average working life of a slave was less than thirty years. The Industrial Revolution solved this dilemma. Northerners just fired their workers in the winter and let them fend for themselves.
By the way, although you'll never read it in any history book printed today, Jefferson Davis FREED THE SLAVES FIRST. And Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves in CONFEDERATE-HELD AREAS. The black slaves in the Union states were still slaves, and remained so until Reconstruction started. Lincoln's intention in freeing the slaves in the South was to deprive the Confederacy of it's black labor force. When the slaves made their way north, they were rounded up and held in Freedmen's Bureau compounds, and not permitted to roam freely. Davis attempted to stop the flow of black labor to the north by proclaiming all slaves free in the South and requiring Southern plantation owners, etc., to pay wages, but few agreed and fewer still ever freed any slaves.

The Civil War was only called the Civil War in the NORTH. Down here in the South, all my life, I have heard that unfortunate conflict called "The War Between the States." Lately an old name has been resurrected among re-enactors and the like--they call it "The War of Northern Aggression." Essentially, Lincoln was America's Lenin. He successfully gutted the Constitution and made the Federal government superior to that of the sovereign States. Prior to 1865, each State government was sovereign unto itself, and except as provided for in the Constitution, conducted it's own business. After the WBTS, the South was politically neutered, and essentially, the Democratic Party (THE PARTY OF SLAVERY) was completely neutralized. Only the Republicans and Radical Republicans were permitted to vote or run for office. No former Confederate was permitted to vote for ten years, until 1875, when Reconstruction was ended. In Texas, the Democratic Party re-seized the reins of power in the very first election, in 1876. They promptly voted the hated Yankee occupier, Gen. E.J. Davis out of office, but he and his Radical Republicans refused. A three-day battle ensued on the grounds of the Capitol at Austin (the bullets are still embedded in many of the walls of the Capitol building.) The Republicans wired Washington D.C. for help, and troops, but Washington refused. Finally, Gen. E.J. Davis and his men surrendered, and were marched out of town at bayonet point by the Texas Militia. Crowds thronged the streets, many of the men wore their Confederate uniforms.
One of the first orders of business was suppressing the Ku Klux Klan. Wearing a mask in public is still illegal here. During the hours of darkness, it is OPEN SEASON on anybody attempting to harm you or your property. Everybody was forbidden to carry side arms, but rifles and shotguns were (and are) still legal to carry wherever you go in Texas except schools. The new Constitution placed enormous power in the hands of County Judges (essentially the "mayor" of a county,) and their legislative body, the County Commisioner's Court. This prevented "Yankee" influences from dominating small, sparsely populated counties in remote places. We still use that same Constitution in Texas today, but it has been amended over 350 times.

Governor Gen. E.J. Davis was the last Republican to serve as a Texas governor for 120 years. There was not another Republican governor until Governor Bill Clements in 1986. It was said, that when Governor Clements was elected in 1986, Texas "turned it's back on the Confederacy, and re-joined the Union." That was only sixteen years ago.

[Smart]

well KaBar, I think you missed out on the broader topic of the confedrate flag but... as far as it goes... there are a couple historical issues you have going against you...

The Abolitionist movement started in the 1700's in New England but over the years it spread, haphazzardly as ideas are wont to do... by the 1820's there was enough tension between the abolistionists and anti-abolitionists, AND, enough states had weighed in that basically the US was in a stalemate, half were 'free' states and half were 'slave' states...

All of this was casual until Missouri gained enough territory to actually become a state, and no matter which way they sided it would throw the sweet sweet balance to the wind (but for the record they were going 'slave')... so, in a flurry of other activity, war reparations for Tejas, Maine becomes a state, seems like Kansas played a role (but that may have been Dred Scot a few years later, forgive my drunken memory...), and others a NEW balance was achieved, and it became Federal law in 1820 that no slaves should be owned past 36'30"N latitude... the Miserable (Missouri) Compromise is often referred to as the Rule of 36'30"N...

ANYWHO, 36'30" was struck down as unconstitutional in 1854 (see Kansas-Nebraska act), still the anti-abolitionist south and the abolitionist north were both FIRMLY established before Lincoln even stepped into the national arena...

AND... Jefferson Davis wasn't even the TRUE president of the Confederacy, ahem, Alexander Stephens, and then I'm pretty sure they tried to give it to some Georgian named Cobb (but it could have been Merriwether)

I'm sorry.. what are we arguing about again?

OH YEAH....

The Union - largely made up by Abolitionist states ("Free States")
Except Virginia who later joined the Confedracy

The Confederacy - ENTIRELY made up of "Slave states"

I find it mind numbing to argue the political differences (though many) between the northern Republican agenda and the Southern Federalist agenda, though some points should be blatantly obvious...


AND THEN... your narrative leads to events of the reconstruction but... I think this thread has meandered so far afield at this point that we should at least settle hash from before and including the War of Succession (which is the 'gentlemanly' name for it in Dixie) before we move on to the awful events of the reconstruction, which to a large extent can be attributed to personal greed (carpetbaggers and 'yankee trusts')...


But please, speak to the primary issue at hand as well. What does the 'symbol' represent to you and is it appropriate on the flagpole of a state legislature building?

[Smart]

damn KaBar, you changed your post and now I'm ll lost...

[IntangibleFame]

Originally posted by Smart
you idiot, a flag is not a 'flag'...

a flag, EVERY flag, is a visual embodiment of a movement or an idea.

I thought we stopped around here....:rolleyes:

[Smart]

^no, that was where we turned... I don't think anybody could cook up a good counter to that so... now it's on about wether the civil war was about slavery or not...

[IntangibleFame]

oh ok thanks for catching me up....so if it wasnt about slavery then what was it about??...angry drunk white people who didnt want to pick cotton themselves, let what they owned go and file a "loss"......

[Smart]

Originally posted by KaBar
The average wage for a working-class white man in 1850 was about a dollar a day. So I doubt very many white families owned many slaves.

in EITHER the north OR south, so let's just wash this idea that everyone had slaves from our heads, focus on the facts of the abolitionist movement from it's birth. The non-slave-owning majorities in these states spoke out for 50, even 70 years before their southern peers would even hear their arguments...

[IntangibleFame]

preach it braddah smart

[Smart]

but I'm sayin...

DOH!

[mental invalid]

i just like hearing intelligent people speak their mind......whether i agree with smart or kabar or anyone else....the fact remains is that i just learned more about that time period and i thank you both....good show chaps...

still, unless your the dukes of hazard, lose the flag.....

[Canadiano]

unless your the dukes of hazzard? fuck that, man. i'm telling you, straight up, the south should be proud of a lot of their history, and should be glad that they have a flag to distinguish themselves from the rest of the states. I see nothing wrong with some confederate flags flying high on top of the Georgia Dome, or the Capitol building of some state. Everyone knows they are American, so why shouldn't they respect their heritage? Living in Canada, I don't know too much of all this, but from the books I've read, from the television and movies I've watched, the typical Southern gentile looks a really cool, noble character. One shouldn't look to the bad when it comes to the flag. What normal person talks about the love they have for their country, then backs it up with past genocides that have been committed? Rather, they will talk about the beautiful land, the urban landscapes, the overall pleasant character of the people. The flag is a part of that, for anyone.

I know a vegan "hippie" who loved to tell people that he loves the environment. He is the same person who would tell me that agriculture sucks, and that we should go back to the hunter-gatherer system. He loooooved the environment (:rolleyes: ), yet he worked for Starbucks at the foodcourt of a giant corporate building. He once told me that he wanted to burn the flag. I couldn't push him, punch him, anything, because he is a frail boy. Instead, I never talked to him again. This fucking hypocrite walked through Quebec City (during that summit) making fun of our soldiers, calling them idiots. My friend, apparently, responded by saying that they are the protectors of our nation. This dumbfuck hippie said that they are not at all, and that he is far more of a protector (smoking weed and talking about the latest Suzuki book is how he protects).


I HATE PEOPLE WHO DON'T RESPECT THEIR HISTORY.

[KaBar]

The Confederate flag represents the Lost Cause of states rights. If idiot racists the nation over want to adopt it as their "symbol" I can't help that. Suppose the racist right adopted the jelly bean as their symbol--would you stop eating jelly beans? It's silly.
The Confederate battle flag has a lot of emotional baggage that goes along with it, but the "real" flag of the Confederacy was the Stars and Bars (this is the Confederate flag that has a field of blue with a circle of eleven stars and three lengthwise stripes--two red stripes separated by a white stripe, or the "Bonny Blue Flag" a solid field of blue with a single white star. (This same design also flew over Texas earlier, during the War for Texas Independence.) The Confederate battle flag has another version with a field of white added to it. Nowhere during the War Between the States did the Confederate forces fly a flag similar to the "modern Confederate Flag." The modern flag did not then exist in the form we see it today. The actual Confederate battle flag was square.

What does it mean today? I guess it means different things to different people. I don't know anybody born in the South who actually flies a modern Confederate flag today. One of my neighbor's kids had a rebel flag sticker on the back window of his pick-up truck and the black neighbor who lives across the street from him (whose wife works for the Sheriff's Department as a clerk) tried to get him arrested on a trumped-up charge of attempted burglary of a motor vehicle. The black neighbor's attitude was every bit as racist and bigoted as any redneck I ever met. Racist and racial bigotry are by no means limited to one particular racial group, and it is just as ugly, regardless of who espouses it, and whatever their lame excuse is.

One of the coolest versions I ever saw of the modern rebel flag design substituted the green, black and red colors of the Black Nationalist movement for the red, white and blue of the rebel flag. I thought that was a creative idea.

I also have met two black guys who are members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, one whose great-great-whatever grandfather was a white Confederate, and the other whose African-American ancestor served in a South Carolina militia as part of an infantry company alongside his white owner. It wasn't voluntary, apparently, but there is nothing in the charter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that says anything about "voluntary." Plenty of Confederate soldiers were unhappy draftees.

Just parroting the "Southern whites are all racist dogs" and "the Civil War was all about slavery" is bullshit. It's revisionist history, and superficial. Yes, the South was "for" slavery. But slavery as an institution was doomed no matter what--the cotton harvester was coming, and it marginalized millions of black Southern agricultural workers. Slavery was about economics and technology. It had a very real human toll, but it doesn't make the Confederacy an authoritarian dictatorship like Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union. There was no attempt to exterminate black people.

As unpleasant as many Northerners find it, both white and black Southerners share Southern culture, speech patterns, musical traditions and so forth. When I was in the Marine Corps, I often gathered together with other Marines from the South, of all races, and we would reminisce about Southern food, or weather, or sports, or whatever. Yankees don't like grits, or fried okra, or collard greens and fatback. "Fried chicken", now a national dish, was once called SOUTHERN fried chicken. Yankees didn't fry their chicken, they roasted, broiled or baked it. These are, of course AFRICAN-AMERICAN dishes, because the cooks of the South were black. And the white folks learned to appreciate the recipes brought to Southern kitchens by black cooks and chefs. I never met a white person from the North that had ever tasted collard greens and pork fatback who wasn't a Southern immigrant.

Resist the temptation to sum up the racial problems of the South in a neat little tidy explanation. It doesn't work. (For instance, we are now beginning to see serious black racism against Asian and Hispanic immigrants who are beginning to outnumber blacks. There is real anger and resentment there. Where is the ACLU and the NAACP? I'm not hearing anybody from the NAACP call for racial tolerance for Asians and Hispanics, nor any condemnation of racist, violent crimes by blacks against these other minority groups. BUT THEY SHOULD.)

I know a number of African-American women who are very angry because white women are marrying successful black men. When I hear "Those bitches ought to stick to their own kind!" come out of a black woman's mouth, I am reminded of the white women voicing racism of a generation or two earlier. NO EXCUSES. Racism is racism. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

As much as it may displease the liberals, I went to integrated Houston schools from the 8th grade on. TODAY, in Chicago and New York and other Northern cities there is a degree of segregation that is greater than ANYWHERE IN THE SOUTH since about 1965. We have learned to live together and appreciate one another for who we are. Can the North say that? No, it cannot.

[Smart]

you might be suprised to learn that the jellybean had never been associated with a corrupt and racist political system until Regan...

The fact is, the confederate flag is fully and inexhoribly associated with a system of human rights abuse, and with KaBar's facts I must assume even MORE SO today... I have lived in 2 places known as 'the birthplace of the klan' in my life and from that experiance, I find it obvious that, for whatever reason, the Klan has adopted the confederate flag and also linked their own movement with it's symbology...

Also, the perpetuation of segregated society in the south through the 50's created a certain political group who also used this flag, and the states rights arguments, to perpetuate a corrupt system associated with human rights abuses...

I have visited the old 'colored school' in my town, it's exactly the same in everyway as the old city high school, except the scale of everything is reduced by about 20%... the room size, wall height, desk size... everything the same but smaller. Black people aren't any smaller than white people on the average, you know... sitting in those desks is like visiting the kindergarten...

No matter what you think the confederate battle flag represented upon it's creation, though it wasn't born from the most idyllic circumstances, the political/symbological perversion over the years has stained it's reputation forever...

Also undeniable is that, since it's creation it has continually, AND singularly, been associated with a particular type of human rights abuse... this is why 'racism' is the knee jerk reaction, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE... for the same reason stereotypes are stereotypical, racists are always gonna be distinguishable by this particular issue of race hate. The symbols they use to express pride in their particular brand of hate have absolutely no reason atop a pole on the state capital!

[IntangibleFame]

You guys and your debates...just knock it off, Smart let us get back to the bear jokes...

[Canadiano]

Originally posted by Smart


No matter what you think the confederate battle flag represented upon it's creation, though it wasn't born from the most idyllic circumstances, the political/symbological perversion over the years has stained it's reputation forever...

so you're saying that it would be perverse of my mother to wear that particular sari i had mentioned earlier (the one with the gold swastikas all over it)? I don't think so. She is a very proud and traditional Indo-Canadian who will never forget where she came from. It is unfortunate she decided not to wear it (my yuppie brother had a lot to do with that decision). The confederate flag is all about southern pride, and I believe should be flown by all proud southerners if they wish. KaBar made it clear that even the south is losing a bit of it's distinguishable culture, ie the fried chicken, etc. There needs to be something, like a flag, to represent themselves, even if it is just a casually thrown on sticker on the back of a truck. Hell, there is a flag for every country. Every state in the US has a flag, as well as every province in Canada. Families in Europe have Coats of Arms, and the list goes on. I say they definately should fly that flag high all around the government buildings. People have to be educated. I don't believe it is proper for some angry minorities to want that flag removed because of their lack of historical knowledge. Hell, perhaps this would do a better job of uniting the races in the south. If I were a politician down there, I'd say that the flag must be taken back from those skinheads who abuse it's beauty. You know, like when women try to 'take back the night' from the rapists.

[ctrl+alt+del]

Originally posted by mental invalid
i....good show chaps...


i just saw a lady wearing purple shorts under chaps at tony romas.

[Smart]

Originally posted by Canadiano


so you're saying that it would be perverse of my mother to wear that particular sari i had mentioned earlier (the one with the gold swastikas all over it)? I don't think so.

No, I'm saying it's wrong for her to wear the Luftwaffe uniform she has in the closet... and you're either very very dumb, or you think everyone else is... How can you expect to draw a nonexistant parallel... this is like me suggesting that any flag containing red, white and blue with some stripes and some stars is equal to the confederate flag.

FUCK the confederate flag, there is NO DENYING the associations I have pointed out, anyone who flys that flag supports those belief systems along with whatever misguided justification you want to tack on... WHAT LACK OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE??? It's the history of these minorities... I'm sorry if you don't know anything about what your great great grandfather did for a living, but I assure you that if he was an actual slave you would know.

In fact, Canadiano, it's not even YOUR history, you're not from the south, you don't know what your talking about. You telling me how things are or ought to be is like Jah telling Boddice Ripper that Dublin is in Ulster...

The confederate states had their chance and blew it, the war is over, the south will NOT rise again...

And for all KaBar's talk of marine comeradery, I know a 4 tour veteran if Vietnam, Marine Recon, who has repeatedly told me with pride in his eyes how he and his buddies kept an all southern all white squad, by hook or crook, it's not all hugs and kisses in the service...

[ctrl+alt+del]

Originally posted by Smart
the south will NOT rise again...

lets hope so

[el nervo]

you guys need a fucking break this tread should of ended with. who gives a fuck

[KaBar]

Hey, we never miss an opportunity to re-till plowed ground around here.

There's definately a split on this board, but it's not between the liberals and the conservatives (we are locked in a sweaty intellectual embrace). The dividing line is at the Beavis-and-Butthead border. "Huh huh huh He said "history." Go back to sleep. And I'm with ya.

[I Luv Roo]

Originally posted by Canadiano


so you're saying that it would be perverse of my mother to wear that particular sari i had mentioned earlier (the one with the gold swastikas all over it)? I don't think so. She is a very proud and traditional Indo-Canadian who will never forget where she came from. It is unfortunate she decided not to wear it (my yuppie brother had a lot to do with that decision). The confederate flag is all about southern pride, and I believe should be flown by all proud southerners if they wish. KaBar made it clear that even the south is losing a bit of it's distinguishable culture, ie the fried chicken, etc. There needs to be something, like a flag, to represent themselves, even if it is just a casually thrown on sticker on the back of a truck. Hell, there is a flag for every country. Every state in the US has a flag, as well as every province in Canada. Families in Europe have Coats of Arms, and the list goes on. I say they definately should fly that flag high all around the government buildings. People have to be educated. I don't believe it is proper for some angry minorities to want that flag removed because of their lack of historical knowledge. Hell, perhaps this would do a better job of uniting the races in the south. If I were a politician down there, I'd say that the flag must be taken back from those skinheads who abuse it's beauty. You know, like when women try to 'take back the night' from the rapists.

The people who don't want the confederate flag flown in public spaces are not "some angry minorities". They are poeple who's ancestors had humiliating and oppressed lives. Most black people in this country can trace their family back to - you guessed it - slavery. All humans deserve dignity, and this is the dignity that alot of black people want. They don't want a constant reminder of what went on to their people. The image may mean a lot of things, but to many it a reminder of an ugly and shameful time in american history.
Regardless of what the civil war was about.
Just as the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians are an ugly reminder of people's stereotypes of American Indians.

The swastika is a context. If tilted on its corner, in black, surrounded by a white circle and red retangle - that is Nazi Germany. If gold, and on a sari - probably means Hindu. Most intelligent people are able to make the out the difference.

[willy.wonka]

would GOD want a daily reminder of what killed his Son?

the cross for example..?the cross is what Jesus was nailed on to..
kinda like the knife that killed your mother....yah seen?

something a friend brought up to me a while back.

[mental invalid]

"Living in Canada, I don't know too much of all this, but from the books I've read, from the television and movies I've watched, the typical Southern gentile looks a really cool, noble character."


exactly............

[Canadiano]

yo, Smart, you don't need to be bringing personal attacks to the table, 'cuz it might show your true character.

anyway, I could argue that your saying "the South shall not rise again" is a typically American way of ruining any sort of identity.

Roo, good call on the swastika - i'll tell my mom that, even though it probably won't work 'cuz she is stubborn like that.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by willy.wonka
would GOD want a daily reminder of what killed his Son?

the cross for example..?the cross is what Jesus was nailed on to..
kinda like the knife that killed your mother....yah seen?

something a friend brought up to me a while back.


beautifully done!

[mental invalid]

are you two kidding me?

beautifully done?


ahhhhhhhhhhh what?


click click hello, click click hello?

thats has to be the worst come back yet, no offense willie, or you either bodice, i just call it how i see it....and that my friends is a lousy counter arguement......

[bodice_ripper]

why? it nicely points out that all symbols are MEANINGLESS, except for what you hang on them yourself. Granted, it was a little far fetched, but made the point with a little humour - which this thread lacks..........................

[my moment]

i just think it matters how you use it to express yourself. some people might use it to express southern pride and others might use it as a sign of hate.

[Smart]

Originally posted by Canadiano
yo, Smart, you don't need to be bringing personal attacks to the table, 'cuz it might show your true character.

what persinal attacks? you mean me using your grandmother as a clothes horse to express my position? because you already had her dressin golden swastikas... if you'd have said your grocer I would have said your grocer... point is, you have no valid position on this argument from a 'historical' standpoint... and you may be dumb

[Weapon X]

i don't know, man. I thought my argument was very parallel, still. Then you called me dumb. boohoo. nothing to do with the moms, 'cuz you never said anything about her.




416 is today. maybe there'll be personal attacks of another nature there!

[shameless self promotion]

people need to have more shit to do, other than sit around and bitch at stuff like this..its a part of history, like it or not, im not saying that they have to fly it, but you sure as hell cant erase it...

nah meean?

[zen]

woop woop. the flag means lots of things. why dont people just NOT fly it. if it means a symbol of racism to a majority, reguardless of wether it is or not, then dont fly the flag unless you want to portray the that image to that majority. Dont make this deeper than it has to be.

[KaBar]

Crackatinnie---So, using that argument, the Vietnamese Cultural Center here in Houston ought to not fly the South Vietnamese flag because it might offend somebody, and rastas ought to not wear tams, and cowboys ought to not wear cowboy hats, and.... ah, come on. You can't control what other people do or say. Forget about it. If you don't like the Confederate flag for some reason or another, just refuse to own one or fly one, and your task is finished as far as I can see. If somebody else wants to fly one, I guess that's his problem. I suppose if enough people in a state vote to change the symbol of their state, then you'll have a black, green and red flag flying over Alabama and Mississippi and South Carolina, etc. and all the white rednecks can be the ones bitching and complaining and accusing people of racial insensitivity. That would be okay, right?

[Smart]

you're welcome to experss yourself on an individual level, on a statewide level, however, you must at least appear neutral... This has nothing to do with changing state flags entirely (except where it is completly neccessary)it's about letting go of symbols that reflect the state support of institutions that have been legally unjust since before WOMEN COULD VOTE!

[KaBar]

Smart---This isn't an issue for me. I don't own a "rebel" flag, and if I did, I wouldn't fly it. But to tell you the truth, I think we ought to be careful about thinking that somehow or another anybody has a right to censor what sort of expression somebody else wants to make. Last time I looked, the First Amendment guaranteed individuals the right to express themselves as they please, so long as it is not pornographic or a danger to public safety (Like the proverbial shouting of "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.) This is true of flags, etc. If some idiot wanted to fly a Nazi flag over his house, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights says that is just peachy, and in fact, if one interfered with that, one might get charged under the civil rights laws. Same goes for a Palestinian flag, or a Israeli flag, a Communist flag, or whatever.

And a "rebel" flag.

But is it appropriate for a government building to fly such a flag? Maybe not. I wouldn't be at all happy, for instance, if my county government decided to start flying the flag of Mexico from our Court House. It's not appropriate, and considering the history of Texas, it is inflammatory. The same thing could be said to be true about the State flags of former Confederate states. They should reflect an image that all the citizens of that state can identify with and be proud of. Or at least not be grossly offended by. Texas fought a war to be free of Mexican rule. We were an independent country for ten years. The same thing can be said to be true of former Confederate states, except THEY LOST THE WAR. Therefore, the state flags of those states should probably not contain elements of the former Confederate flag. Like the Stars and Bars, for instance. But for Billy Bob's trailer? No problemo.

[Smart]

KaBar, I couldn't agree more, and I think you'll fuind, if you look back through this thread that our arguments are exactly the same... at least I think I made a little stand in the beginning of this thread, basically outlining the same stuff as you...