Patriot Act *breaking news*

[gabe rock]

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lewis.html

Breaking News
There's an important story developing tonight at the Justice Department. The non-partisan Center for Public Integrity obtained a closely-guarded document that shows plans for a sweeping expansion of the government's police powers.

Until now, few people outside of the department, not even members of key congressional committees have seen this draft legislation. It could lead to increased surveillance and greater secrecy - all in the name of the war on terror. It raises questions about how we balance liberty and security - the rights of individuals versus the rule of law.

Bill Moyers talks to Chuck Lewis about the significance of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 and how it would affect civil liberties.

* Read the Department of Justice Response (PDF)

* See Office of Legislative Affairs cover sheet for the draft legislation (PDF)


READ THE DOCUMENT
* Download the high resolution version (PDF)
* Download the low resolution version (PDF)

Get Adobe Acrobat




Civil Liberties and the Patriot Act:


The Center for Public Integrity
The Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit, nonpartisan, tax-exempt organization, was founded by Charles Lewis. The mission of the Center for Public Integrity is to provide the American people with the findings of our investigations and analyses of public service, government accountability and ethics related issues. The Web site has many frequently updated features on Issue Ads, Campaign Finance and Citizen Muckraking, among others. The site is also home to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, which posts stories from all over the globe.

The Department of Homeland Security
The Department of Homeland Security offers information about Homeland Security legislation, the President's Homeland Security proposal, and analysis of the department. Other features include transcripts of speeches given by Governor Tom Ridge at the National Association of Broadcasters Education Foundation 2002 Service to America Summit and President Bush's Address to the Nation concerning homeland security. Online chat transcripts with Governor Ridge are also included.

Homeland Security, Homeland Profits
On the Corpwatch Web site (a corporate watchdog group), Wayne Madsen argues that corporations are standing to make billions from selling "surveillance and information-gathering systems to government agencies and the private sector." Madsen cautions that this technology will be utilized to intimidate and squelch dissent.

How the USA Patriot Act Puts the CIA Back in the Business of Spying On Americans
In this issue brief, the American Civil Liberties Union argues that the USA Patriot Act includes domestic espionage against American citizens. According to the ACLU, the USA Patriot Act "permits a vast array of information gathering on U.S. citizens from school records, financial transactions, Internet activity, telephone conversations, information gleaned from grand jury proceedings and criminal investigations to be shared with the CIA (and other non-law enforcement officials) even if it pertains to Americans."

Preparing the U.S. Army for Homeland Security
In this Rand Corporation publication, the organization analyzes the security threats facing the U.S. and helps to clarify the U.S. Army's core responsibilities in preventing and responding to attacks on the U.S. homeland.

Seizing Dictatorial Power - William Safire
In this New York Times op-ed, journalist William Safire admonishes the Bush Administration for usurping "dictatorial powers" in the prosecution and sentencing of suspected terrorists. Safire trumpets a clarion call for all "conservative iconoclasts and card-carrying hard-liners to stand up for American values."

The Sons and Daughters of Liberty
Village Voice correspondent Nat Hentoff reports on 300 citizens of Northhampton, Massachusetts that organized a community meeting to resist the USA Patriot Act. Under the banner of Northhampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee, Hentoff describes the town's activism as a "new American Revolution."

The Northampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee
The Northampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee (NBORDC) is a grassroots initiative that organized to resist the U.S.A Patriot Act. The NBORDC Web site provides helpful tips to individuals and groups interested in creating their own Bill of Rights Defense Committees in their communities. The Web site also includes an issues page which analyzes provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act and Federal Executive Orders in the context of the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution.

USA Patriot Act
Thomas is the legislative search engine provided by the Library of Congress. Thomas allows users to read the complete text of the USA Patriot Act, follow its path through Congress and its many committees, review its co-sponsors in Congress, and much more.

USA Patriot Act Includes Provisions on Student Records
The American Council on Education(ACE) highlights provisions in the USA Patriot Act that authorizes the ability of the U.S. government to collect detailed information on foreign students. According to ACE, the USA Patriot Act also directs the U.S. Attorney General to implement an electronic database to store and track foreign students from selected countries. Those educational institutions that fail to authorize the intelligence network can be denied the ability to accept foreign students.

Watching You: Systematic Federal Surveillance of Ordinary Americans
A Cato Institute issue brief, "Watching You," documents the push to enact a federal tracking system to monitor U.S. citizens in the aftermath of September 11, 2001. If this federal tracking program is instituted, the Cato Institute warns that the government "will have perverted its most fundamental mission and destroyed the privacy and liberty that it was supposed to protect."

Task of a Terror Czar
Robert Maginnis of the Family Research Council makes recommendations to ensure the effectiveness of the Gov. Tom Ridges' Department of Homeland Security.

The Posse Comitatus Act: Can We Maintain American Freedom Without It?
In this essay, C. T. Rossi responds to Homeland Security head Tom Ridges' attempt to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. The Posse Comitatus Act barred the U.S. military from serving as a civilian police force, effectively protecting the right of states and local communities to police themselves. Its repeal, argues Rossi, "would open the door to old abuses" and concentrate undue power in the federal government.

[Dick Quickwood]

FUCK

[TEARZ]

bad shit....

[ElectricitySucks]

i dont get it cause i didnt read the whole thing but i guess all breaking news sucks so,....yeah, same here. fuck.

[KaBar]

The very people that many of you guys thought of as ignorant, redneck jackasses have been bitching to high heaven about the potential for this very thing to occur for the last twenty or twenty-five years. For YEARS people have been rolling their eyes at the Constitutionalists and saying things like "The right wing is a bunch of paranoid extremists."

The John Birch Society has been screaming about the potential for fascism in America for YEARS. IT WON'T COME WITH JACKBOOTS AND TORCHLIGHT PARADES. Fascism will come to America WRAPPED IN THE AMERICAN FLAG.

LISTEN TO ME. BUY RIFLES AND AMMUNITION AND UHF/VHF RADIOS WHILE YOU STILL CAN. BUY 1,000 ROUNDS FOR EVERY RIFLE AND PISTOL YOU OWN. STOP SHOOTING UP AMMUNITION FOR FUN. LEARN TO RELOAD. STUDY THE CONSTITUTION. LEARN THE LAW.

Someday, you may find yourself faced with the choice of becoming a subject in a police state, or fighting back. You need to know what it is you are fighting to defend. READ THE CONSTITUTION. DEFEND YOUR RIGHTS POLITICALLY AS LONG AS YOU CAN. VOTE VOTE VOTE WHEN YOU ARE OLD ENOUGH.

For those that are old enough to do so, and who care one way or the other--the militia movement used to advocate buying rifles chambered for one of the Militia Three--5.56mm (.223 Remington), 7.62mm NATO (.308 Winchester,) or 7.62x39mm Com Bloc (this is the cartridge that fits AK-47 and SKS rifles.) Some members also went out and purchased a type of AK variant called the NHM-91, which has a 21" barrel and a permenantly attached folding bi-pod rest. They also purchased 75 round drum magazines for these rifles. They are not full-auto, but the bi-pod and the drum magazine allows accurate, sustained fire for fire support.

If you buy bolt-action rifles, buy 7.62mm NATO (.308 Winchester.) This is a U.S. military caliber, and cartridges in this caliber and 5.56mm (.223 Remington) will be available on the black market long after other ammunition has become scarce. Buy the best rifle and the best scope you can afford. Your scope should cost at least as much as the rifle itself. If you spend $350 for a first-class, long-range rifle, buy a first-class, long-range $350 scope to go on it. Yes, $700 is a lot of money to pay for a deer rifle. How much would you pay to not live in a dictatorship? Large, extra powerful cartridges are not necessarily better. The U.S. military and Federal LEO's use the .300 Winchester Magnum as a sniper rifle (oh, excuse me, a "precision marksman" rifle--like the precision shot that hit Vickie Weaver in the face as she stood in the door of her Idaho home with a BABY IN HER ARMS) but the advantage of owning a 7.62mm NATO rifle is that this is the same caliber as the M-60 machinegun, the M-240G and other lightweight, general purpose, belt-fed machineguns shoot. This kind of ammunition will be easy to obtain on the black market. So will 5.56mm, but the 5.56mm cartridges (M-16A2, or M-4) are not effective at long ranges (500 meters+.)

Many of you will think I am talking like a nut case. You tell that to the German Jews. You tell that to the Poles. You tell that to the Czechs, the Rwandans, the Cambodians and every other nation that has been overrun by murderous dictators. TODAY, they are following foreign students from Syria and Iran around as if they are all saboteurs. Eventually, they are going to run out of foreigners to kick out of the country. And guess what? THEN THEY START ON YOU. I do not believe that the Homeland Security Department is going to suddenly throw up it's hands and say "O-Kay. Jobs done! Let's all go back to being beat cops and insurance salesmen now." Once they have a taste of power they are not ever going to want to stop, like the DEA. They will just get bigger, and more powerful with a bigger budget and a higher salary for the "Director."
J. Edgar Hoover used to have FBI agents over pulling weeds in his flower garden on Saturdays, in white shirts and TIES.
That's the kind of mentality that comes along with being the "nation's watchdog." Everybody is fucking terrified of you, and you know what? IT FEELS GOOOOD TO BE KING.

I am 100% against all terrorists, and I hate and despise ALL enemies of the United States, but I also have NO INTENTION of giving up my Constitutional rights without a struggle.
Go back and re-read this post.

[deth dealer]

sounds disturbing

[BROWNer]

yikes.

and the answer?!

go buy a gun!!!!!!! yeeeeehhaaw.

[BROWNer]

actually, fuck that, go buy a whole shitload of guns and
tons of AMMO.

BOOYA.

[optimo]

Yeah.. apparantly this is the higest terror alert since 9/11..

im looking into getting a pistol for sure, don't know about hunting rifle's though..

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

shut up kabar.... guns don't solve a god damned thing.
if you honestly feel so threatened that you need an AK47 and a bathtub full of ammunition, go ahead and waste your money. that's your right i suppose. most of those guns will, however, be used in stupid crimes commited by the moronic majority of 12oz viewers. it's not too hard to dismiss the theory of terrorism, either.

what do we want? oil
how can we obtain it? somehow seize land in the middle east
how do we do that? start a war and hopefully win
what cause do we have to start a war? uh... none.... let's crash some planes into the world trade center and blame it on extremist muslims whose remains will be disintegrated leaving no evidence of them even being on planes. let's tell the world they trained as pilots too.

it's only terrorism when it happens to us, right?
GETCHER GUN JIMMY! THEM DAMN A-RABS'RE A'COMIN!

[Dick Quickwood]

Originally posted by KaBar
[ [/b]

this guy is right

[fr8oholic]

you didn't get the chain email?

we are the new hitler.

[WebsterUno]

sounds like a story from the bible.

I dont think this is BS.
I think its better to be
prepared, boy am I lucky
I live in the ghetto, home
of the black market.

[shameless self promotion]

Originally posted by some pittsburgh flavor
shut up kabar.... guns don't solve a god damned thing.
if you honestly feel so threatened that you need an AK47 and a bathtub full of ammunition, go ahead and waste your money. that's your right i suppose. most of those guns will, however, be used in stupid crimes commited by the moronic majority of 12oz viewers. it's not too hard to dismiss the theory of terrorism, either.

what do we want? oil
how can we obtain it? somehow seize land in the middle east
how do we do that? start a war and hopefully win
what cause do we have to start a war? uh... none.... let's crash some planes into the world trade center and blame it on extremist muslims whose remains will be disintegrated leaving no evidence of them even being on planes. let's tell the world they trained as pilots too.

it's only terrorism when it happens to us, right?
GETCHER GUN JIMMY! THEM DAMN A-RABS'RE A'COMIN!

Its not hard to dismiss the theory that your not a dumbass either is it?
You shut the fuck up. I dont agree with kabar totally, the man speaks truth that you should know your rights, as every american should...

I wish i had all day to sit here and school you on what the fuck is really going on. But instead I will recommend that you check out some international news channels, they have a wide array of perspectives and storys, and maybe once you'll understand what the fuck is going on...

Oh, by the way, every person i have ever met from pittsburg has been a total fucking idiot. (not to forget every person i met when i lived there for a brief peroid of time..)
Must be something in the water?

[imported_suburbian bum]

Fuck buying a gun, i'm moving to Canada.

[BROWNer]

Originally posted by shameless self promotion
I wish i had all day to sit here and school you on what the fuck is really going on.

:confused:

[KaBar]

Okay, in your case, don't buy any firearms, ammunition or anything else to defend yourself with.

We would all prefer that you , and folks that think like you do, not be armed. Okay? Don't do any of this stuff the Government is recommending, either, okay? No plastic sheeting for you, no miracle duct tape, and definately no Field Protective Mask. Do not store food and water, do not prepare for any sort of trouble. Just go about your normal routine, and when they announce on the TV that everything is fine, go back to work, do not attempt to walk down the fire escape---what the heck! It's EIGHTY FLOORS, right? Shoot. Take the elevator, it's what a rational person would do. Of course, a lot of other people will be standing around in the elevator lobby with you, patiently being rational and calm. You're in the majority of calm, normal people. The paranoids and extremists are hurrying down eighty flights of stairs like crazy people.

Don't worry. You can trust the Government. The Homeland Security Uber Alles Department is only trying to make your life doubleplusgood, and anybody who tells you different may be an unstable, irrational doubleplusungood Prole. Big Brother Loves You. Face towards the monitor.

Out beyond the tree line, who knows what may be out there, laying in the brush watching with binoculars? Better stay here, close to the Soma store.

fas-cism 'fash-,iz-ez-em also 'fas-iz- n [fascismo, fr. fascio bundle , fasces group, fr. L. fascis bundle& fasces] 1921. 1 often cap ; a political philosophy, movement, or regime, (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and race above the individual , and that stands for a centralized, autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of the opposition.
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army ~and brutality--J.W. Aldridge.

lib-er-tar-i-an , lib-er-'ter-e-an n (1789) 1 : an advocate of the doctrine of free will 2 : one who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty, esp of thought and action --- libertarian adj libertarianism -e-a-,niz-emn

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

Originally posted by shameless self promotion

I wish i had all day to sit here and school you on what the fuck is really going on.

yeah... i could dance like that.... IF I FELT LIKE IT!!!!

sure, believe what you want. It's no secret that we actually have enemies in the middle east, and all over the world for that matter.

But i guess they hate our country for no reason. We are the most powerful country in the world, we do nothing but good.

be sure to shoot some red-dots for me, chief.

[dELiSs]

i'm intrigued

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

hey kabar, i should listen to what the authorities say about buying Gunz 4 da Masses but i shouldn't when i work 80 floors up and nothing is "wrong"?

cool.
and logical.

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

what if your country had an evil tyrannical leader with weapons of mass destruction? (less than america has, mind you) And this other country decides the only way to take care of that problem (it's not even their problem now, is it? sadaam is all about talking yang but he won't hang) is to fly "over there" (remember that? propaganda, yay!) and nuke the hell out of YOUR mother's house and all of YOUR friends coming home from church. what's that have to do with taking out the evil tyrant you say?

well,

[KaBar]

Was that business about the Taliban beating women with automotive fan belts for showing their face while begging. That's gotta be worth at least a week of laser-guided GPM's falling like a driving rain. Or not. Iraq has oil. So does Texas. If you want to be patriotic, sell your car and ride the bus. Take the money you save and buy a decent long-range 7.62mm NATO bolt-action rifle with a first-rate telescopic sight. NO DICTATORS HERE.

(Edit: Take my word for it, the absolutely last thing the Government wants is an armed population. There's just so many of us, they can't do a GODDAMNED THING ABOUT IT UNLESS THEY WANT TO FIGHT A CIVIL WAR.)

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

Originally posted by KaBar
Was that business about the Taliban beating women with automotive fan belts for showing their face while begging. That's gotta be worth at least a week of laser-guided GPM's falling like a driving rain. Or not. Iraq has oil. So does Texas. If you want to be patriotic, sell your car and ride the bus. Take the money you save and buy a decent long-range 7.62mm NATO bolt-action rifle with a first-rate telescopic sight. NO DICTATORS HERE.

?
i don't get you. i do ride a bike and take the bus. i take it that when the beat those begger women, they also go to yoru hosue and beat you? so you should kill them?

[shameless self promotion]

Originally posted by some pittsburgh flavor
cool.
and logical.

no no no.

Young
and impressionable..

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

hey! let's be bad and act against the government's wishes but in effect push the same militaristic and racist beliefs they try to enforce with their god damned homeland security fetish!

[KaBar]

When the people are armed, the Government suddenly becomes rather polite. Are the people armed in Iraq? Nope. Guys like you would die screaming in the torture chambers beneath the Ministry of Love, Pittsburgh. Open your eyes, fella. Being all liberal and nice and pacifistic will get you herded into a ditch in front of a bunch of creeps with MP-38's. Best be ready to rock and roll, and it doesn't really matter who the thugs are---whether they are gang banging fuckheads from the next block, monsters from the DEA, thieves from the IRS or some jack-booted ninja from the Homeland Security Department or FEMA. Go ahead--give peace a chance, see how it works out. Some people just gotta learn the hard way. I did--that's why I'm so vocal about it.

High School Student Union 1966
Students for a Democratic Society 1967
Unitarian-Universalist Church 1967
War Resister's League 1968
IWW 1969-1976
Conscientious Objector 1969-71
U.S. Marine Corps infantry 1976-1981
Washington State National Guard (tanks) 1984
Texas Constitutional Militia 1994-1998
13th TIR 1998-2000

Things change, and people change with them. This is your time to do whatever you think is right, but look^^^ what you think is right today may not always strike you as right. Some day in the future, you may be looking back on it, and think "How could I have been so wrong?" One of the biggest stoners in my high school was drafted, joined the Navy to beat the Draft, was assigned as a gunner's mate on a PBR (Patrol Boat, Riverine) and wound up getting a chest full of medals in the "brown water Navy" in Vietnam. He's still a big stoner. He has doubts about what he did, or rather, what he allowed to happen to him. One of my best friends in the world, back in 1970, has nightmares still today of shooting a fleeing Vietnamese prisoner with an M-60. He tried alcohol, marijuana, heroin, whatever, but he gets no relief. Every night, he's back in the rice paddy with the slicks and the gunships roaring into his LZ.
He's the biggest, most determined liberal I know. But even he acknowledges that he had no control over the events--he was just swept along in the tide. And so are we.

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

Originally posted by KaBar
When the people are armed, the Government suddenly becomes rather polite.
-------------------
he had no control over the events--he was just swept along in the tide. And so are we.

to quote GWAR here... "follow the herd... just another cow..."
call me young and impressionable, sure, whatever the fuck floats your red white and blue nuclear death submarine. swept along in the tide? SWEPT ALONG IN THE TIDE? you're acting as though it's your responsibility to take care of our great leaders' fuck-ups. i bet you have tom ridge on speed dial ready to report any towel-heads or camel jockeys who look at you the wrong way. i think your opinion is void anyway seeing how you readily went and served in the military for all those years. don't even say "oh i got college benefits" or something stupid because you know you enjoyed it, you felt proud defending this great land of ours built on the skeletons of "them stupid Red Skins" and built by tortured, diseased slaves. And you're proud of that? It's disgusting.
i bet the uneducated vagrants in hiroshima and nagasaki who had nothing to do with WWII deserved to die because "they" attacked pearl harbor, right, guy?

do me a favor, and move to iraq or afghanistan, start shooting beggar-beaters with all those guns you bought, and await our satellite guided missiles to kill you and everyone you can fucking see. because that will solve everything. right?

[ArtvandaL]

NO TO WAR ON IRAQ!!








NO BLOOD FOR OIL!

[willy.wonka]

see this is all follytricks..

i want the governments of the world to fall and mass amounts of people dead, so that the tribes can journey on into that thing called the mind and survival.

if anybody can give me all that crap that has been copied and pasted, i might be able to talk about it, but on the other hand, i might just read it later on.

[ArtvandaL]

wonka i want you to be a *12oz activist*

[bufme1]

[img]http://images.indymedia.org/imc/jakarta/01_lontoo_sw-thumb.jpg'>

[KaBar]

Unless you are a super-dedicated Communist, which I doubt, I bet that within ten years your views change dramatically. I bet that before you are 26 years old (the cut-off date for enlistment in the armed forces) that you experience a change of heart, and enlist in the military. Maybe not the Marines, like I did (hey, I was extraordinarally unhappy with the choices I had made---a tour in the Air Force or the Navy would have probably been good enough) but I bet before you are too old, you are wearing the uniform of your country.

And I did not join for any kind of benefits. I enlisted in the Marines and pretty much demanded "infantry." I joined to learn to fight, and so that I could look in the mirror and say "You did your duty." I'm sure you think that's total bullshit, and since we live in a free country, you are free to think and say, and write, whatever you please. Can't do that in Iraq, though.

In 1969, when I was at my most most rabid anarchist revolutionary fever pitch (man, I hated Nixon with a burning passion, beyond anything I've seen on this board so far) I was jungled up with a bunch of hippies and one of them was an older French guy, in his late twenties or early thirties. After listening to me rant and rave about Nixon, the State, "this genocidal war" yadda yadda yadda for about twenty minutes, he asked me what I would do if the U.S. was ever attacked. I drew myself up and sort of self-righteously announced "I'm a pacifist!" He just smiled, put another stick on the fire and said, "You'll fight. When it comes to your home and your family---you'll fight." That's all he said about it.

Words of insight from the French. He was carrying a French Army ruck, I've always wondered if he was a French veteran of Vietnam---they were fascinated with the American involvement in Vietnam, and the French national conciousness was a sort of smug "See, even the Americans got their ass kicked." Getting overrun at Dien Bien Phu was a terrible loss to French national pride.

Do what you gotta do, but you know what? "You'll fight."

[yoshy]

hey kabar,

do you think you needed to go through you radical hippie phase? are you
glad that you did, or would you have rather come into the mindset you
have now, at an earlier age. i guess i am asking if you think there are
actual answers, or if there is just a process....

and on another note, i kinda get the feeling that you enjoy "glamorizing"
war, and that bothers me...maybe i am just misreading things tho....

yoshy

[dojafx]

heh
reppin the super dedicated comunistas!
viva!

[xwibxonex]

some of you guys ARE really impressionable, BOTH WAYS, i'm like alot of you on here, i dont watch alot of news, i hear what i hear thru say school or work, my boss being a Army National Gaurdsman,
on alert about to be sent out,
ANYWAY, you peopel scare me, alot of you, kabar, he is intellegent, but he is an extremist,
those ARE worst case scenarios, alot of his phrases and fragments true, main point a little shady

a lot of you are reaaaaly to one side here, i dont beleive the vew presented on any of the us news channels, but how smart is it to base your knowledge off of a message board of a bunch of kids caught up in a stream of anti-americanism, i hate bush, hes an idiot yes

I dont know all the facts on everything, and neither do all of you, a lot of you will watch the news, or check news articles posted on sites and than blast them to pieces and try and prove them wrong, now look, isn't that a little "weird"?
I like the post where the kid linked to a site that said something about bush being in direct connection to terrorists in iraq or something about his broker having ties to bin laden, while im sure hes got some dirty things going on here and there, like alot of our presidents had, you fools take shit too far
I mean shit, ANYONE can right this shit with NO facts at all,
besides, dont you think the press would be all on his shit about it, go, go ahead and say NOOOO theyre hiding things from us, but thats bullshit, PLUS, hed have no chance in the next elections with that garbage, and we all know it, stop complaining and acting as if you all know what youre talking about, being a rebel is fun yes, but i got bored of it, and im annoyed of hearing it,
chose your side, pick reliable facts, and for gods sakes, stop reading every damn article on google that has to do with the goverment written by 20 something college kids with no full view of whats going on in the world. peace.

[dojafx]

heh, george bush is not an idiot
he knows exactly what he is doing
capitalism will always be on the march towards fascism
thats how it works,
i'm sure you've heard of that poem by the holocaust survivor
"first they came for the communists, and i didnt speak up because i wasnt a communist, etc..."
thats exactly how its working except they're comming for the immigrants first this time
watch your back.

[dojafx]

oh, and as much as i disagree with KaBar politically, i think arming yourselves would be a really good idea
as zapata said
"its better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

[KaBar]

Honestly, I think that people (especially men) go through stages of life where they tend to be rebellious and defiant, and then, as they mature, they lose that. Some of us (hey, I'm 52 and I'm still attracted to a board full of teenagers---what does that say about me?) seem to drag it out much longer than others.

As for glamorizing war, well, it has to do with imagination, I think. People who disagree with me take the position that the United States is safe, secure and no preparations or individual ability to defend the country is necessary, or even desireable. I was reading posts that were very concerned about the possibility that commercial airliners might be hi-jacked and used as kamikazi planes against soft civilian domestic American targets as far back as 1994. The survivalist and militia guys have always been worried about it, and we discussed it at great length, numerous times, over the years. Nobody in the "straight world" (i.e. non-survivalist, or maybe "anti-survivalist" world) took it seriously at all. We had been worrying and calling for food stockpiling and arming every household for years, but the liberal left, and also the bland middle majority just rolled their eyes.

I don't understand how the liberals can be so blind. Can they not see that what stops fascists and night riders and terrorists in their tracks is an armed population? What Ku Klux Klansman in his right mind would even consider night-riding and cross lighting in a black neighborhood today? Shit, they'd be shot so full of holes they'd look like a collander.

One thing I never could understand back when I was a young-twenties anarchist is how the Left could be so stupid as to "give away" being armed and combat-ready to the right wing. hel-LO! If anybody needs to be trained and armed, it's the WORKING CLASS. All my so-called revolutionary anarchist buddies had a very limited and unimaginative viewpoint of the world. Basically, they are pussies, and that's the truth. The only fighters I ever met on the left were the anarchist-communists in San Francisco, and even they admitted that they beat up the Trots for the hell of it.

As I became aware that I was definately no pacifist, I started saying "What else that I believe is a bunch of nonsense?" Pretty soon I found myself saying "I really do love my country. That black flag doesn't mean shit to me, so why am I going around telling myself that I'm an anarchist?" I wasn't super patriotic when I enlisted, but as I served in the Corps, I sure got that way.

So few of us in America have served in the armed forces these days, it's almost a subculture now. I had already done my two year's alternative service as a C.O. When I enlisted, my military obligation was satisfied, I didn't have to do it. Don't you think the Drill Instructors looked at me with a jaundiced eye? They had to know I was a former anarchist. They leaned on me plenty. I wound up as both Platoon Honorman and Series Honorman. I was the best fucking Marine they had seen in months.
War isn't glamorous, it's nasty. Basically, you're talking about legalized homicide, but even in war there are definate rules. Anybody that breaks them, and gets caught, will suffer the consequences.

Once you know how to wage war, though, you have a distinctively different understanding of the world.

There are 1.8 million members of the armed forces.
There are 4 million members of the NRA.
There are 31 million licensed deer hunters.
There are 70 million American firearms owners.
NO DICTATORS HERE.

[--zeSto--]

RE: Taliban and the treatment of the population.

I'd just like to add a comment for the sake of adding a little info on this subject.
I just finished work on a documentary about a woman's return to Kandaher. She is an Afghan, and a Muslim. I've met and talked with this woman about her story and feel that because she was there, her opinions are extrememly valid. When she was a child, there were pictures of Michael Jackson on the billboards all over the major cities. They drank coca-cola and wore levis. Then the Russian supported a coup in 1978, and started kidnapping and tourturing all their opponents. So the Afghan 'Freedom Fighters' get incredible support from the CIA and approved aid from the american congress. This is all cold-war stragety, and when Mother Russia falls, they retreat from Afghanistan.
The 'Freedom Fighters' have won!
So now what?

The Mujahedeen are in control of the counrty, but they are essentially tribal gangs with many guns and stinger missles. There's no real leadership and the US has stoped officialy supporting them. What happens? Well they kill anyone they think is against them in addition to rape, kidnapping, torture, murder and genocide. Many people are aginst these new rulers, and being led by Mullah Omar, they form the Taliban in Pakistan. When the Taliban was originally formed it was considered the less-fundamentalist group. The people needed someone to stop the violence and killing so they looked to Omar and the taliban for help. They take Kabul by force and change the country. At this time the CIA is still seceretly supporting the Taliban because they fear that the Russian supported Uzbek and Tajik groups will try to regain power. These group have come to be know as the 'Northern-Alliance'.

then 9-11

So all the US intervention goes down and what come from it?
The Taliban and their allies are killed by former russain supporters and former 'freedom fighters'. Too bad that both of these groups also want to kill each other. Essentially all off the evil warlords that were in power before the taliban are back in power. I'm not saying that the Taliban were any better, it's just crazy that killers replace killers who replace killers.

any what do the poeple of Kandahar blame on the violence?
The fact that every single grown man has guns!

[dojafx]

i see you kabar
i have an icepick proof hat
you're not getting me

[dojafx]

on the afghanistan issue
the cats that were in afghanistan who were supported by the soviets were brutal, but compared to the taliban they were long haired flower sniffing hippies

[KaBar]

Good point, and I've got to respect your source, but I do not agree. Sorry. I understand that your friend feels that way, but bottom line, I'm not disarming NO MATTER WHAT, and I'll bet you that the Afghan freedom fighters/communist creeps/ warlords/ CIA shills etc. aren't disarming EITHER. I'm sure it would be a better world if everybody would just be nice, but they won't and so one either prepares or deals with the fact they aren't prepared. If you don't want to, brother it's cool with me. But the woods in the state of Texas are like one huge ammunition dump. This state will not be pacified, man. See what I'm saying?

[--zeSto--]

Kabar

I suppose the difference in our opinion comes from the meaning of being 'armed'.
You can have a shotgun, side arms and even a semi-auto rifle, but it's no where close to what these people are dealing with. The Russians gave relatively simple people assault rifles and land mines. The cia gave even simpler people stinger missles. The escalation just got so far out of hand that everyone was armed to the tits, and terrified of everyone else. That's why the struggle for power went so crazy and why so many people died. If you see two men fighting, dont give one a gun.
That's the major difference.

I think that it's totally in your rights to have arms, but I don't think that every american should have to have guns just because their neighbours do. People have owen guns for generations and are very well aware of the consequences. Americans know that if you start firing your guns off, you will probably get shot. Some people dont have the experience. besides, it's easy to make rash decisions when you're starving.

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

Originally posted by KaBar
(hey, I'm 52 and I'm still attracted to a board full of teenagers---what does that say about me?)


it starts with "P" and ends in "edophile"


no, i'm kidding. you asked for it though.
i don't see how you answer any of my questions or rebutt any of my statements by telling what went down when you were in the marines. if yuo're going to be the proverbial "father" to this 16-year-old, i'd appreciate if you'd actually respond to me.

thanks

[xwibxonex]

no doubt heh, my bad, i was attacking the wrong group of poeple in the wrong thread, i totally agree with being armed, ive got a good start with 3 swords and a bb gun 45 heh, but yeh, im still tired of these extremists, but im ready to arm myself for my freedom, right on kabar

[patatasbrava]

If you really want to here some good honest media coverage with views from all over the world. There are many sister stations, but 94.1 KFPA in Berkley has some of the best coverage of world events. that station only has a range that can reach people in the Bay Area. but there are other stations across that country the work together and broadcast the same things that KPFA does. its great because the have alot of people(scholars,journalists, human rights activists, civil rigts) so you get a complete story not the junk thats in mainstream media. Its a public funded radio station thats why they can broadcast what they want, without having a large corporation leaning on them about what there content is. peep it , it change the way you look at things. www.kpfa.org (http://www.kpfa.org)

the sister stations are: KPFK(LA), KPFT(houston),WBAI(NY),WPFW(DC)

[--zeSto--]

But here's the tricky part...

What is too much ?

Obviously if you're sitting on a giant ammo dump
the chances of self-inflicted wounds are goingto rise.
If you've got a gun in every room, well you're not really
all that protected from accidents or quick theifs.
I have a sawed-off baseball bat (dont laugh) behind the door
incase any nutjobs try to come up my stais. I think that's all I'd need.
If anyone with a gun tries to rob my house, then they are probably just
dumb enough to use it.

[imported_The Former]

[SIZE=4]1984

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

it's all about kanedigital's size 34 wooden louisville slugger complete with electrical tape grip and "BEAT ON THE BRAT" lettering on the dome-crushing portion.

[casekonly]

iraq is the second largest oil producing country in the world...not that it matters. i honestly don't think it's about oil. russia has potential to produce a shit ton more oil, they just don't have the funds. we have people over there right now trying to find the best place to drill, it won't be long. i think the u.s. is slowly weening itself off of oil from the middle east...
as far as weapons go, our armed forces have some pretty high technology "super weapons" who needs a nuke when you can wipe out the population of a city and leave buildings standing?
who needs missiles when you can shut down their ground control with a digital bomb (will shut down all electricity, and data type devices with an electro magnetic pulse)? we can also cause the "enemy" to wretch and fall onto the ground with super powerful sound waves...inaudible for that matter...gah, who knows what else we have up our sleeves?
as far as the homeland security act part II: i'm scared to death of the first one, the second is 1,000,000x worse...i'm moving to canada...and i'm buying a gun and a wilderness survival book...
here's something interesting you can do: go googling and find out how many nuclear reactors are in the u.s. and find out where the closest one to your house is...and stop using the library computers and checking out books....the feds keep track of what you look at...also, use a proxy on the net...i'm not using one at the moment, but plan to...if you don't know what a proxy is, find out...

[KaBar]

I think that we should arm in accordance with the letter of the law. One has to qualify statements like that, because every single thing the Nazis did was 100% legal under the laws in Germany at the time they did them. The legislature was NSDP controlled (National Socialist Party of Germany) and they just wrote whatever laws "Chancellor" Hitler told them to write. IN FACT, the Gun Control Law of 1968 was lifted WORD FOR WORD from Nazi gun laws, and that is absolute fact. (For you doubters, I heartily recommend you check with the organization "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" (JPFO). They call themselves "America's aggressive civil rights organization.") www.jpfo.org (http://www.jpfo.org) or go directly to the Nazi gun law of 1938 http://jpfo.org/NaziLawEnglish.htm

The law says that you may not own "long arms" (rifles and shotguns) until you are 18 years old. DO NOT VIOLATE THE LAW. If you do, and you get caught, you will lose your legal right to own firearms for the rest of your life. You may not buy handguns until you are 21 years old. ^^^ See above statement. You also may not purchase or possess ammunition for handguns until you are old enough to buy one, except .22LR ammo, which also fits .22LR rifles.

Not everyone should own firearms. I have had people tell me "I just don't trust myself around firearms." Wow. When I heard that, I said "Then by all means, don't buy any." Sheesh. If you don't trust yourself, no wonder that you don't trust me.

This is more or less what it boils down to. You have a right to own firearms under the Second Amendment to the Constitution. But that does not mean that you have a right to carry them around illegally, stupidly show off for your friends, get drunk and play with them, shoot up rival drug dealers' house, etc., etc., etc. You have a right to LAWFULLY POSSESS THEM. That means "Don't break the fucking law!" Do people stupidly break the law? Well, duh! Yeah, they do. Goof around with a gun, though, and you might wind up killing somebody (or yourself), just like if you goof around on a motorcycle, or while skydiving, or while rock climbing. You'd best put your brain in gear around guns. DO NOT DRINK AND FUCK AROUND WITH FIREARMS.

At 18, you can vote, get married, make a legally binding contract, join the Armed Forces, get insurance, buy property, sue people, get sued, be tried as an adult, purchase long guns, and so on and so forth. You have a right to do all these things. If you do any of them stupidly, you could wreck your life. Exercise some care, young citizen.

At the age of 17, LIKE IT OR NOT, you are a member of THE MILITIA. You do not get to choose. The law applies to you, period, unless you meet a rather narrow bill of exemptions. If you want to read the CURRENT LAW REGARDING YOUR MEMBERSHIP IN THE MILITIA, look up United States Code, Section 311 and Section 332, I think. It basically says that if you are between the ages of 17 and 45, able-bodied and male, you are automatically in the militia unless you are the Vice-President, employed as an arsenal or shipyard worker, or a minister of the Gospel, or already a member of the regular armed forces. There is the "organized militia" (National Guard) and the "unorganized militia." (That's the rest of us.) If you have prior military service, you are in the militia until age 64. This means that come what may, if the President or the Governor of your state calls up the militia, YOU WILL GO, or you will be breaking the law. (Frankly, I can't see it happening anytime soon, but it is still LEGAL.) In Texas, any peace officer can deputize any citizen as a member of the "state military forces" (militia) anytime he or she needs to. Remember the Texas Tower Sniper? (Charles Whitman, former Marine, with a "brain tumor the size of an orange" August 1, 1966.) The four men who went up that tower after him were two brave Austin police officers, and two brave deputized civilians who were combat veterans. They didn't really want to go, but Whitman had killed fourteen people and injured dozens. Somebody had to go get him, and so they volunteered to do it. Legally, they were members of the militia, mobilized in the service of the State of Texas.

As regards the Pacifica Radio network, here in Houston we have KPFT 90.1 FM. They were bombed off the air twice by the Ku Klux Klan back when I was in my twenties (1971 and 1972). I went out and looked at the tin transmitter shack (or what was left of it) the first time. I think the guy that did it used way too much explosives. The second time, it looked very professional--the building (which was concrete) was hardly damaged at all. The bombers put the charge on top of a vent grille, then put sandbags on top of that. When it went off, it destroyed the transmitter, but barely scratched the building at all. It looked like a military demolition job to me, which was pretty close. A Klan member named Jimmy Dale Hutto was convicted of it, but in 1981, a Grand Wizard of the Texas Klan admitted that it was he who had engineered the bombing. Unfortunately, by that time, the statute of limitations had run out.
I enjoy KPFT's music a lot of the time, especially their blues program, reggae, and bluegrass, but the left-wing politics sucks a big one. Oh, well. They can't please everybody. I figure anybody that the KKK thinks is worth blowing up must be worth listening to, even if they are ultra-liberals.

A Constitutional republic requires a little input from every side. If the right wing were completely unfettered, they would soon alienate the population just like an unfettered left wing has done. Texas now has a completely REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED government, both houses of the Legislature and the Governor. Do you realize how rare this is? Texas has been a solidly Democratic state SINCE THE CIVIL WAR. But when the Democratic Party became a euphemism for the Socialist Party, the people of Texas voted with their feet. For years and years and years, the word "Republican" was synonymous with "Yankee." Not any more, though. They done come up.

Well, this was a long and boring ass post. Typical.

[--zeSto--]

you are automatically in the militia unless you are the Vice-President, employed as an arsenal or shipyard worker, or a minister of the Gospel, or already a member of the regular armed forces.

so a shipyard worker is more essential in his position than a doctor?
I guess that just goes to show how outdated that little bit of legislation really is.
When was that law writen ?

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

hmm.... the terror alert was a false alert. there is nothing to be scared of.

WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

hellllllo-o-o-o-o-o-o-oooooo

[OMARNYCAKASW1]

[img]http://www.hermes-press.com/soldier.jpg'> [img]http://www.hermes-press.com/silence.jpg'>

[Al Green]

Originally posted by fr8oholic
you didn't get the chain email?

we are the new hitler.

i heard hitler was the new anus.. which is the new vagina.


fyi boieeeeeeee

[KaBar]

I'm not sure why I think it's important to try and reach you guys on this issue. Probably I won't succeed in reaching many. You all have your own viewpoints, and it's virtually certain that the power of the mass media from Hollywood already has succeeded in shaping your viewpoints. (I know, I know--you feel like your viewpoint was arrived at totally independently and that nothing except your own opinions and sensibility has unduely influenced you. That's why companies spend fifty million dollars for thirty seconds of commercial air time during the Super Bowl, because TV doesn't influence anybody. ) You guys feel that you are very sophisticated and media-savvy, and I'm sure that's true to a degree, but YOUR OPINIONS ARE SHAPED BY POPULAR CULTURE AND POPULAR CULTURE IS SHAPED BY "HOLLYWOOD." Why do you think so many left-wing, so-called "progressive" people gravitate towards advertising, Hollywood film and TV, teach in universities, etc., etc.? They go where they think they can have the most influence on society. Why do you think so many people in the "social services" sector of the government are ultra-liberal, left-wing types? You guys probably do not think of Harvard and Yale and other "Ivy League" schools as universities that champion the Left, but they absolutely do. Yale, in particular, has had enormous influence over CIA and NSA over the years, as well as being the source of many Naval officers. The professors in these schools know that while they may have little personal power in world affairs, if they can succeed with one George Bush or one Bill Clinton or one Condoleeza Rice, they can have enormous influence on world affairs and the direction the country (and the world) takes.
President Bush's cabinet is filled with people who served in former (mostly Republican) administrations, as well as many, many corporate Boards of Directors. Bill Clinton's administration was exactly the same way, with only slight variations. They have many things in common, but one glaring common thing is where they went to college--there is a HEAVY dose of the up-Eastern establishment in both examples. George W. may be a good ol' boy from Midland in the public's mind, but his roots go DEEP, DEEP, DEEP into Connecticut and the same up-Eastern establishment mileau that produced the Rockefellers, the Mellons, the du Ponts and so forth.

These universities also make it possible for the children of FOREIGN elite classes to be educated at their schools. And when little Abdul becomes Minister of Interior in Abu Dhabi, his background is at least heavily influenced by having attended Duke University or Harvard or Yale or wherever. Ergo, his professors have some influence over how he thinks and the decisions he is likely to make.

I deliberately enlisted in the Marine Corps. I quit art school at University of Houston, and joined the Marines. That experience colors the way I think. I did it on purpose. The decisions YOU make, what TV shows you watch, what movies you go see, the people hang out with, the newspapers you read etc., etc., are all going to influence the way you think. Don't think for one second that listening to MTV and popular music, etc., isn't changing the WAY YOU THINK and WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE CORRECT. It does. Recognize it.

[--zeSto--]

just to piggyback on Kabar's point (about viewpoints and influence)...

Try to balance out your news sources.
For every item you get from CNN,
try to get a least one oterh viewpoint from the BBC
or any other international news source. Please!
American cable television is not the most reliable news source.

and for more piggybacking (on the influence of certain schools)...
Noam Chomsky teaches at MIT. How's that for a left-right conflict?
Please Believe!

[SteveAustin]

I watch BBC more often than any american news program...for real.

Don't trust american media or the governments manipulation of it.

[imported_suburbian bum]

Funny thing Kabar, because your opinion that left wing people's views were formed by hollywood and the media. I was just going to say the exact same thing about YOUR views.

[fatcopone]

late entry:

kabar, what exactly is a war on terrorism? please tell me, because my government won't, and i don't think one can actually exist.

and why exactly should we take up arms within the constraints of the constitution? and, do you feel there may be some post-apocalyptic aftermath to this war??? do you feel you'd want to survive and try to restore hope to the world like mad max by defeating the evil government??? call me young and naiive but i agree with SPF. the RIGHT way (for me anyway) to defeat (or rebirth, you choose) our own country is through a peaceful protest and SMART living. NO commercialism, NO consumerism, NO blind hatred, NO MTV (have you seen these kids at the mall lately?) No No No etc etc. NO FUCKING OIL! why won't soldiers just not join the army? do they not understand that no one is attacking US? i'm just glad i won't ever give my life in the name of this rotten country...

if any of my comments sound attacking, cynical or snide, just blame MTV.

[KaBar]

What you apparently can't see is that those rights were secured by the militia and volunteers in the Continental Army, during the Revolution, and are today guaranteed by young men and women wearing the uniform of the United States. The phrase "It's a free country" means "We have liberty" not "The liberty that we enjoy didn't cost anything." You are completely free to do whatever you please, within the law, and if eating organically, riding a bicycle everywhere, dumpster-diving for the essentials is what you want to do, then I say, "Right on, brother!" The problem arises when just doing your thing isn't good enough. Ultimately, collectivists want to control what other people can and cannot do---like making somebody else ride a bicycle when what he wants to do is blow down the road in a giant gas-guzzling, jacked-up monster truck. As long as I'm armed, and I'm willing to pay the price, I can live as a free man. Without firearms, this is not the case. An unarmed population is essentially serfs. They have very little choice, or at least, that's how I feel about it. Maybe I'm wrong, whatever. I'm still not giving up my firearms.

The UN dreams of being able to TAX THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Fuck them. They dream of restricting people to the cities, of having "no go" areas where people are forbidden to go (hey, it's on their own web site, or used to be.) Fuck that too, I'm not accepting the authority of the UN to say shit about life in the United States. This is OUR country, and they can kiss my ass. Will we see this BS in my lifetime? I doubt it. But they are thinking "long term." They may be able to convince the American people, slowly, to accept their totalitarian crap. I hope I'm dead before it happens. They have already tried designating AMERICAN National Parks as UN "Biosphere" areas. The public outrage was so great that the Park Service took down the signs. It's part of their scheme to tax us. (They need to tax us so they can "administer" our parks for us. Motherfuckers.)
Personally, I am not too enthusiastic, right now, about the war against Iraq. The problem isn't about humanitarian concerns, though, it's about the U.S. Congress. Our soldiers should not be engaged in warfare unless there is a DECLARATION OF WAR from the U.S. Congress. And if there is, then I say "Let's go get their ass." We do not need anybody's permission. We do not need anybody's support. We do not need any "coalition" of UN straphangers along for the ride. They have NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER OVER AMERICAN CITIZENS. If we wish to make war on Iraq, or Somalia, or Panama, or whomever, that's our business. Anybody doesn't like it, let them step up to the plate and say so. France comes to mind. (We SAVE THEIR ASS TWICE IN ONE CENTURY and this is what we get in return, those ungrateful sonsabitches. We should have let the Germans have their ass. Well, I take that back---we did get second-generation Jacqueline Kennedy from France, sort of. She was worth quite a bit. But other than that, how have they ever showed us any gratitude?)

If the American people don't like the government, let them VOTE THEIR CONSCIENCE and they can put somebody in office that does what they want. Instead, we get Demopublicans and Republicrats. No matter who bottles it, it still tastes the same. Our major companies no longer have any loyalty to the United States or the American people. By and large, they consider themselves "stateless." Especially the oil companies.
And their behavior reflects that. I am not a happy camper, but I definately am glad I do not live in Baghdad. I heard some American liberal peaceniks are going to Iraq to chain themselves to potential targets. What idiots. I hope they made out a will before they left.

The grunts are just doing what we ask them to do. Don't blame them. March and protest the war, if you want, but don't forget who protects your right to do so. In Iraq, if you protested, you'd wind up in the torture chambers of the Secret Police. Here, you can protest all you want, but it means virtually nothing. The government rolls on, regardless. Even the Vietnam War protests, probably ten times bigger than the Iraq protests, barely impeded the government.

[philestine]

"Let's go get their ass."

Whos ass exactly??
You don't need anybodys permission!?
Up until now, I thought your posts were reasonable and sensible, but after that paragraph, you reminded me of your President who thinks arrogance and self-righteousness is the way to go because US is "under-threat".

[KaBar]

Man, you still don't get it. Read Clauswitz. "War is just politics by other means." There is no "reasonableness" about warfare. It's completely unjustified, unless you've got a knife to your throat, and if you're in that situation, you waited way too long. An example would be World War II. We never should have waited for Hitler to become that powerful. He should have been assassinated when he was still beating up Socialists in beer hall brawls. Did we have any justification for doing so? Not in 1933. But ten years later, with the ashes of six million murdered Jews drifting over Poland, we had 20-20 hindsight.

Let's fucking kill Saddam right now. He rates it.

No doubt you disagree, and I can understand why. But I think it's time to get real about Islamic fundamentalism. We created a Frankenstein and now they are running all over the middle east causing worlds of shit. I say that we can deal with them now, or we can deal with them later, but if you think that a guy like Saddam Hussein is ever going to play nice, think again. We could have killed Hitler easy as hell in 1933. Everybody knew he was trouble, even then. But "cooler heads prevailed." "Let's give diplomacy time to work." "Czechoslovakia is half German anyway." Yadda yadda yadda. I think you lack imagination. These people do not respect anything but force---you may disagree with me now, but ten years from now when you have been drafted and are sitting in a hole with a rifle fighting WWIII, you may remember my words. "Let's go get their ass while they are still weak enough for us to handle them easily."

[imported_WISE]

Kabar, I agree with you 100%

[yoshy]

guns definitely solve problems. unfortunately they also create
problems. owning a gun doesnt solve everything. as a culture, as a
gov't in theory we strive to become better people, and create a
"better" environment. sometimes, the world, or our neighbors dont
agree with what actually is "better".

bottom line, if you use a gun to solve your problems, you are only
participating in a vicious cycle.

i am not saying that i am not apart of this cycle.

i also understand, kabar, that you might say one would use a gun
to make a situation "better" in order to foster an environment that
could spawn something "better".

unfortunately that is rarely the case. we seem to live in a world where
someone, somewhere is always "unjustly" suffering under someone else.

i dont know how to break that cycle...

[grittylifer]

Originally posted by KaBar

Let's fucking kill Saddam right now. He rates it.

*saddam aint doin shit to you. what the fuck do you care about iraqis and arabs? that fucker couldnt hit us with missles if he tried.

No doubt you disagree, and I can understand why. But I think it's time to get real about Islamic fundamentalism. We created a Frankenstein and now they are running all over the middle east causing worlds of shit. I say that we can deal with them now, or we can deal with them later, but if you think that a guy like Saddam Hussein is ever going to play nice, think again.

*so we should send our troops to die at the hands of his weapons of mass destruction we gave him?

We could have killed Hitler easy as hell in 1933. Everybody knew he was trouble, even then. But "cooler heads prevailed." "Let's give diplomacy time to work." "Czechoslovakia is half German anyway." Yadda yadda yadda. I think you lack imagination. These people do not respect anything but force---you may disagree with me now, but ten years from now when you have been drafted and are sitting in a hole with a rifle fighting WWIII, you may remember my words. "Let's go get their ass while they are still weak enough for us to handle them easily."

*this would make sense except for the fact that this war is the biggest chance of starting www3 and our military is capable to handle any country anywhere at anytime. not just on the bush administration time table...really though...we havent even won the war in afhganistan against rag tag rebels.....and now we are thinking we can invade a country with weapons of mass destruction who's leaders has allready used them twice in war and sent its citizens through two brutal wars in the last 25 years? Afghanistan should be the precurser to any other gulf war. The war in Afghanistan is sill raging. what makes you think Iraq will be diffrent.

And what I really dont understand Kabar, is where is all this blind faith in the bush administration coming from??

[KaBar]

The Iraqi people have become masters at phony enthusiasm. As long as the cameras are rolling, they protest loudly, but as soon as the CNN crew goes back into their hotel, they all go home. I do not believe that the Iraqi people are committed to a last-ditch defense. For one thing, Saddam cannot afford to arm the population. Unlike the U.S., where there are enough firearms in the population to arm every man, woman and child, the Iraqi people are DISARMED. If Saddam passes out rifles to the people, it won't be Cruise missles or American snipers he needs to worry about.

I do not trust the Bush Administration very much. George W. isn't that much different than his father, and both of them are in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations up to their eyeballs. Virtually every single Democratic and Republican politician and the majority of their advisors and Cabinet members are TL and CFR too. You may recall, George 41 was Director of the CIA at one time. George W. picked as his running mate Dick Cheney, who is a poster boy for the New World Order. These people are HOOKED UP, and they do what is best for themselves. You may roll your eyes and say "KaBar is totally off his rocker," but the fact remains that hundreds of key Government officials, industrial leaders, military officers, Repubicrat and Demopublican political party officials are all members of the same three or four extracurricular social and political organizations. Before you scoff, do the research. Add in their friends, acquaintances and business associates who are part of the "Bilderbergers," and suddenly the fact that 5% of the world's population owns or controls 90% of the world's wealth makes a lot more sense. The rest of us, including billions of starving, illiterate, Third World peasants, own the other 10% or so.

But, being a realist, I understand that you cannot have everything. We must do the best with what we have. The mass majority of Americans have no desire to upset the apple cart.

We have enemies in the world, who may not be any worse (and certainly no better) than our own leaders. The difference is that enemies of the United States are somewhat of a threat. Some are greater threats than others. I belive (but cannot prove) that a lot of Al-Quaida fighters are being killed wherever we find them, either by the U.S. Special Forces, or by Afghan proxy troops, fighting on behalf (and probably on the payroll of) the U.S. government. It is consistant with what I know about the U.S. armed forces. The war is easier to fight, and casualties are less of a problem politically, if the war in Afghanistan is fought without broadcast news coverage.

I am concerned about casualties, but we enjoy an ALL-VOLUNTEER ARMY. I knew when I signed up for the Marines that I was taking a little risk. The Marines have a saying, when war breaks out: "Oh well, let's go earn our pay." And put it in perspective. We lost 58,000 in Vietnam in eleven years of war. In WWII the Marines lost 10,000 Marines in three DAYS taking the island of Okinawa. An friend of mine has a story about his father fighting at Tarawa for three days with a captured Japanese rifle, because he lost all his equipment (including his rifle) when the coxswain dropped the ramp out about 50 yards from the beach. Most of his platoon drowned in deep water, loaded down with ammunition and water.

President Bush is an opportunist, like all politicians. They have been waiting for years and years for an external threat like this to create the Homeland Security Department. Now we will see an incremental erosion of our Constitutional rights, even worse than they already have. I don't really trust him, but he is pretty much all we have in terms of leadership. Where's Congress in all this?

[fatcopone]

Again with this gun thing. Kabar, are you saying that the citizens of the US do NOT really need guns, BUT we should ALL own one for a JUST IN CASE scenario??? I'm sorry, but is is hard to follow all the different angles you cover (they are much appreciated), but can you break your philosophy down in lamenms terms>??? Keep typing though, I like reading it.

[WebsterUno]

so get yourself a gun and just be ready to
ride till the wheels fall off!

In laymans terms, RIDE OR DIE!

Serisouly, just hope for the best, expect the worst.

[--zeSto--]

Originally posted by WebsterUno
In laymans terms, RIDE OR DIE!

say Na-Na-Naa! unngh!

[WebsterUno]

with a bottle of bub!

[imported_some pittsburgh flavor]

fatcop... Aus-Rotten - "They Ignore Peaceful Protest"
check it out

and i think yesterday's post-gazette had a front page headline reading:
"Bush: Protests deemed insignifigant" or something like that

i dont think the protests held in pgh recently did much of anything, and it may have to turn to not-so-peaceful to get the point across.


on the 'help SPF and Kanedigital buy amps before the Ramones tribute show" tip, i screen print PGHHC shirts with the upside-down star logo on them, any color shirt, any size, any color ink, forl ike $4 or something... pass the word on/hit me up if you're interested

[imported_suburbian bum]

Originally posted by KaBar
Even the Vietnam War protests, probably ten times bigger than the Iraq protests, barely impeded the government.
And did you see how big of a fucking waste of peoples lives the vietnam war was?

[KaBar]

I spent years of my life protesting the Vietnam War. It was the major thing in my life from 1965 until well into the mid-70's. After all that effort, all those protests, all those leaflets and spray-paint runs, I came out of "the Movement" (the anti-war movement, of course) less convinced than when I went in. There was a quote from some military officer lookingg back on the Vietnam War that goes "We had to get out of Vietnam before it destroyed the U.S. Army." He didn't mean "destoyed" as in killed by the enemy, he meant "fractured politically to the point that it will never be repairable." There was open hostility between the rank-and-file soldiers (especially draftees) and the NCO's and officers. And even some of the "R-A's" ("regular Army--i.e., men who enlisted deliberately.)

Vietnam was a very bad war. It took forever, there were no clear-cut victories, and the enemy used every opportunity to spread dissension, narcotics, etc. within the American forces. Many Vietnamese girls who supported the Viet Cong became prostitutes, and used their profession to gather information. Plenty of American soldiers were killed in back alleys after a night of drinking.

Are there any "good" wars? Nope. Not really. But Vietnam came along at a rather unfortunate period in American history, and we had the civil rights movement, the hippie movement, the "if it feels good, do it" thing, the anti-war movement, all happening at the same time. It has been described as a "revolutionary" period, and while I don't think it qualifies for that sobriquet (well, almost) it was definately a period of social upheaval.

[fatcopone]

i totally agree with you there kabar. if there is one good thing happeneing right now, it is one of the largest anti war movements in the history of the US...

[KaBar]

If the current anti-war movement gains enough steam to prevent the U.S. from waging war on Iraq, through political means, and then Saddam does something like nerve-gas the shit out of Kuwait, boy won't you be sorry. I'm not convinced that war with Iraq is the best thing, but I'm also not convinced that Saddam doesn't need a 9mm between the headlights, either. I don't think the Iraqi people will resist. If we smoke Saddam and all the top generals, the Iraqi people would probably welcome us as liberators.

[grittylifer]

I agree Kabar.
But at the same time the people calling for war are undoubtedly questionable.
I advocate the removal of Saddam, however I do not advocate uneccesarry civilian casualties.
You bring a good point, if that crazy bastard hits Kuwait, shit would go down...but it is the entire handling of the region by our goverment that is not sound.
I still am of the belief that resolution of the Palestinien Israeli conflict would greatly ease tensions in the region as well as destroy the clout of any reprisals from neighboring countrys.
Fuck it. The father of our president was vp to the man in charge of the administration that armed him. We were short sighted then, so perhaps longterm we shouldnt make the mistake again.
We had our rep. at the UN going on and on about violations Iraq has made to UN mandates, but at the same time Israel is in violation as well.
I dont really care either way.
Why didnt we asasinate him in the 80s instead of arming him?
And why is the Israeli Palestine conflict not resolved? Why are our troops still being attacked in Afghanistan? And what the fuck is up with North Korea?
What I was thinking about today was how the bush cheney admin. went in with an almost 6 trillion surplus bugdet wise and now were almost 6 trillion in debt. Trillion is a big number. Where the fuck did the money go? And besides that , where were we when the Iraqi people rose up against saddam after desert storm?

[KaBar]

And if I had the answers to many of them, I'd probably be a foreign policy genius instead of a nurse. I doubt that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going to be resolved anytime soon. It has been going on all my life, and no doubt it will still be going on after I'm gone. The Palestinians were sort of used as pawns by the Arab nations around Israel. During the 1948 war, when the British pulled out of what was called the Palestine Mandate (it was like a British protectorate), there was an immediate civil war between the Jews and the other residents of the Mandate. After a brief war, thousands of Moslem Arabs (and a lot of Christian Arabs too) left Palestine, refusing to be governed under a Jewish government. They went to refugee camps in nearby Arab countries. They should have been absorbed into the population of those countries, but instead, they were set up in permenant refugee camps, and some lived there for thirty or forty years. Lebanon took in hundreds of thousands. When the PLO was formed, it began making plans for terrorism, but it also did a lot of humanitarian things too, setting up clinics, hospitals, schools, etc. The Israelis have fought five or six wars against the Arab states. The Arabs attack Israel repeatedly, and Israel always wins. So far. They have made various attempts over the years to make peace, but never successfully.
The PLO attempted to seize control of Lebanon back in the 1970's, and the Lebanese population split into rival factions. In Beirut, especially, the city was divided into what amounts to rival mafia clans, each with it's own religion, political party and business interests. The Lebanese Christians were outnumbered, and getting pounded hard, so they made coalition with the Israelis, who then armed and equipped them with armored personnel carriers and artillery and heavy mortars, even a few small armored cars, sort of like a tank with wheels. It was the Lebanese Christian militias that massacred the Palestinians in the Shatilla (sp?) refugee camp. The Israelis were blamed, saying that they should have stopped it, but frankly, these hatreds go a lot deeper than that. It wasn't a contract killing, it was hate-filled payback for years of Palestinian intrigue in Lebanon. Eventually the U.N. brokered a departure of the PLO from Beirut on ships, and they left, with U.S. Marines providing a very uneasy "security buffer" between the warring factions. In 1979, Lebanon looked like Berlin after WWII. Every building was flattened, just about. It has recovered a lot in the 20 years since. At one time, before all this shit started, it was called "the Switzerland of the Middle East." It looked like Miami Beach, back in the day. Today, Syria controls most of Lebanon, I think, or at least, they used to do so. For a while, Israel occupied South Lebanon (the mostly Christian area) and used it as a buffer zone to keep the terrorist groups from attacking Israel from there. They moved out a few years ago and gave it back over to the Lebanese.
To tell you the truth, it would be a full-time 24/7 job trying to keep track of all the plots and counter-plots, intifadas, uprisings, terrorist attacks---who has time for this shit? It's not as simple as some people would lead you to believe. Don't fall for the "The Israelis are evil monsters" shit. There is plenty of blame to go around. The neo-Nazis in Germany love the Palestinians because both sides hate Jews. It's a fucked-up, hate-filled mess and I am very grateful I don't live there.

[Rojotelefono]

Ok, due to today's events I've been checking out american politics... had a look at the Patriot Act.
My god, talk about a licence to fuck people over

The bit that caught my eye though was pretty near the top: provision to employ translators

To me, it just says it all; america takes no notice of the rest of the world, unless something happens on its home ground (ie. 9/11), then america's polititians run around like chickens with their heads cut off and its war... 'oops I guess we're gonna have to know what these people are saying before we fuck them up.."

No beef with you guys, it's just that I've got no idea what the people in power over there think they're doing (or here for that matter, but that's a different rant)

You'd think that nobody had ever had an act of terrorism against them...israel/palestine, Ireland, Spain, Japan, et al all seem to be able to manage without using it as an excuse to go and level a country...

Yes, I know it's old news, but I kinda got fired up today for some reason.

Peace

[deph]

Yeah in Feiren Height 9/11 Micheal Moore talks about this act. Apparently most of congress hadn't read it because it got published in the middle of the night. Oh what a great country.

[Juan Fuentes]

FREE PALESTINE!

[willy.wonka]

im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.

[KING BLING]

Originally posted by willy.wonka@Dec 9 2004, 03:21 PM
im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.
Quoted post


Is this sarcasm? Could you explain?

[!@#$%]

bump

[wiseguy]

great, fucking great, we are all fucked now.

[casekonly]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/casek/cattle2big.jpg

[iloveboxcars]

i am confused as fuck. was some pittsburgh flavor arguing with himself on the first page? i didnt really get passed his argument.. sometimes he would direct to kabar.. but..

yeah....

[robJ]

..Remember Rubie Ridge ...

It still amazing me on how blind the citizens are towards the US goverment. I'm waiting on the day the Goverment installs a form of Marshall law for "our" security....

[casekonly]

what about leonard peltier?

[SteveAustin]

Its not that the citizens are blind towards the government...its more like they are pleasantly distracted. God bless commercialism.

[imported_dowmagik]

is peltier still locked up?

[villain]

damn leonard peltier is still locked up?
free leonard!
free mumia!

[robJ]

bump,

[angelofdeath]

fuck michael moore, fuck the patriot act, and fuck mumia.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/supersoer/mickeymoore11_3.jpg

[Herbivore]

Thought this was kind of interesting... in a shitty way. Didn't want to make a whole new thread about it.

source (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10070691/)

Patriot Act deal could curb some FBI powers

Pre-dawn agreement may also make provisions of expiring law permanent

Updated: 2:08 p.m. ET Nov. 16, 2005
WASHINGTON - House and Senate negotiators struck a tentative deal on the expiring Patriot Act that would curb FBI subpoena power and require the Justice Department to more fully report its secret requests for information about ordinary people, according to officials involved in the talks.

The agreement, which would make most provisions of the existing law permanent, was reached just before dawn Wednesday.

But by mid-morning GOP leaders had already made plans for a House vote on Thursday and a Senate vote by the end of the week.

That would put the centerpiece of President Bush's war on terror on his desk before Thanksgiving, more than month before a dozen provisions were set to expire.

Officials negotiating the deal described it on condition of anonymity because the draft is not official and has not been signed by any of the 34 conferees.

Any deal would mark Congress' first revision of the law passed a few weeks after the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

In doing so, lawmakers said they tried to find the nation's comfort level with expanded law enforcement power in the post-9/11 era — a task that carries extra political risks for all 435 members of the House and a third of the Senate facing midterm elections next year.

Sensitive time
For Bush, too, such a renewal would come at a sensitive time.

With his approval ratings slipping in his second term, the president could bolster a tough-on-terrorism image.

The tentative deal would make permanent all but a handful of the expiring provisions, the sources said.

Others would expire in seven years if not renewed by Congress.

They include rules on wiretapping, obtaining business records under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and new standards for monitoring "lone wolf" terrorists who may be operating independent of a foreign agent or power.

The draft also would impose a new requirement that the Justice Department report to Congress annually on its use of national security letters, secret requests for the phone, business and Internet records of ordinary people.

The aggregate number of letters issued per year, reported to be about 30,000, is classified.

'Relevant' records
Citing confidential investigations, the Justice Department has refused lawmakers' request for the information.

The 2001 Patriot Act removed the requirement that the records sought be those of someone under suspicion.

As a result, FBI agents can review the digital records of a citizen as long as the bureau can certify that the person's records are "relevant" to a terrorist investigation.

Also part of the tentative agreement are modest new requirements on so-called roving wiretaps — monitoring devices placed on a single person's telephones and other devices to keep a target from evading law enforcement officials by switching phones or computers.

The tentative deal also would raise the threshold for securing business records under FISA, requiring law enforcement to submit a "statement of facts" showing "reasonable grounds to believe the records are relevant to an investigation.

Law enforcement officials also would have to show that an individual is in contact with or known to be in contact with a suspected agent of a foreign power.