The Anti-War on Iraq thread

[imported_Europe]

Today millions of people all over the world are marching in protest, all to express their opinion on the War on Iraq that some people in power wants so badly.

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kh0_b50ea085ab6cbda3.jpg'>
Infront of the US embassy in Taiwan

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kgz_bc01fb8304872be5.jpg'>
Us student in Taiwan

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kgo_2baa152bf2880963.jpg'>
Perth, Australia

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kfi_dcfb7134f1a5946f.jpg'>
Bangkok, Thailand infront of the US embassy

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kfa_830bd461f05b22b1.jpg'>

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kf9_fee7d6b006be3b47.jpg'>

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kf0_15d0eefc79bb7e90.jpg'>
Malaysia, in front of the twin towers

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kex_fc52c11c531ad4ba.jpg'>

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kcp_c1b43f1133209390.jpg'>
Auckland, New Zealand

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300k8q_26480ecd656b64c6.jpg'>

[imported_Europe]

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300kc4_b2c1c46f1a3e8c14.jpg'>
Tokyo, Japan

[img]http://ekstrabladet.dk/images/6j300k1x_b7cba531d6a4ca35.jpg'>
Montevideo, Uruguay

Ill post more as the day progress.

Stop the war against Iraq now!

[Basic]

ill post pictures from marches over here once they happen
we shall be there with our banners

[alleniverson]

Why are you against the war?

The US has provided ample amount of information which shows Iraq is hiding weapons of mass destruction. I think alot of the anti-war people just like having something to complain about, and would never be happy with any type of military and/or government. I think deep down you wish you were a part of whole hippie generation and are finding any excuse to recreate it.

Fuck Iraq.

[Basic]

it appears you are ignorant

[imported_Europe]

Originally posted by alleniverson
Why are you against the war?
The US has provided ample amount of information which shows Iraq is hiding weapons of mass destruction.

Well, it appears to me that USA has plenty weapons of mass destruction too, but I dont see that as any reason for going to war against USA.

[alleniverson]

Originally posted by Europe
Well, it appears to me that USA has plenty weapons of mass destruction too, but I dont see that as any reason for going to war against USA.

Alot of people find the threat of USA's global domination through military force to be more than enough reason for war against USA.
At what point do you feel a war is necessary? Iraq signed a treaty that they would not produce or harbor any weapons of mass destruction. They agreed to it. And now they want to go back on their word, and be secretive about what theyre up to.
If we wait until we're actually under attack from nuclear weapons we could lose millions of American lives unneccesarily.

In war and in life, sometimes you gotta strike first to protect yourself.

[VAITOMANOCU]

yeah word, i want my kids and their kids to go thru shit like this too

[chester]

yeah, and oil has nthing to do with it
and speaking of treaties, thin about all the treaties that Bush through out the window when got the white house.
And if Irak is so bad, why not take down north korea are while you at it? Seems to me like they have broken some seroius treaies as well...FUCK BUSH

[Poop Man Bob]

This war is avoidable. The US has turned its head (and helped fund) for years as Saddam has slaughtered his own people and grown to a Stalinesque figure. Why go to war now? Why Iraq when the other 2/3s of the "Axis of Evil" is in the process of creating nuclear weapons and/or has announced their intentions to do so? (N. Korea already has 'em; Iran announced they are beginning a nuclear program).

When the entire Middle East (and much of the world) already has a strong anti-American sentiment pervading their entire society, why increase that animosity by forcing war when much of the world clearly wants it avoided? The Bush administration is ensuring future generations of Americans that there will be plenty of people out there that hate us - more so than now. If the government wants to do something about terrorism, why don't they think beyond next year? This global domination kick we're on isn't fucking healthy.

Furthermore, I, like many others, feel as though this war is for the wrong reasons - namely hegemony, oil, and retribution.

War should be the final option.

[Poop Man Bob]

Originally posted by alleniverson


The US has provided ample amount of information which shows Iraq is hiding weapons of mass destruction.



What information?! Powell gave an entire presentation on the matter to the UN and nothing conclusive was proven! The UN arms inspectors haven't found anything, either. Meanwhile, Ari promises evidence on a daily basis.

I, nor the rest of the world, am not convinced. Unless you're watching Fox News 24-7, I don't see how you're convinced either.

[fr8oholic]

Originally posted by chester
yeah, and oil has nthing to do with it
and speaking of treaties, thin about all the treaties that Bush through out the window when got the white house.
And if Irak is so bad, why not take down north korea are while you at it? Seems to me like they have broken some seroius treaies as well...FUCK BUSH

please be specific

[footsoldier]

fuck a war. the geto boys said so, and i listen to what bushwick bill says....but seriously on the real, the way theyre going abotu trying to make it look like this war could still be avoided is actually funny, in a completely sad, unfunny way. everyday i get more ashamed of being a citizen of this country. and its just sad becasue it started with such good intentions and really did stand for something up until about 60 years ago. and anyone who says love it or leave it, fuck you. its not easy to become a citizen of another country. if there was a war and canada extended citizenship to americans fleeing i would def go there.

the us is going to bbe attacked again on our own soil, its sad, but pretty much everyone is warning about it. im not about to let myself die of small pox because the us has a small dick complex.

this is really jumbledand random..i just woke up and cant think straight yet.

[alleniverson]

Originally posted by Poop Man Bob
I, nor the rest of the world, am not convinced.

I like how you have chosen to speak on behalf of 'the rest of the world'.
Lots of people are for the war, so your statement is inaccuarate.

You can not just sit back and not do anything because youre afraid of possible retaliation. Doing that, you will never accomplish anything.
Heres an example..You see some gangbanger and hes by himself at a party talking with your sister. Your sister turns him down for a date and the guy hits her. Do you fight the guy or just not do anything because youre afraid he'll get his boys against you?
Theres not a real clear cut answer I guess. But personally Id fight him and worry about the retaliation later.

In a strange sense, thats kinda what youre talking about concerning the possible war. You think we shouldnt do anything to stop possible nuclear attacks on America and/or other parts of the world simply because other people will 'hate us'. Thats a weak argument and doesnt hold any water.

If you dont like the war, dont fight in it. Simple as that. I respect your right to protest. You can protest and hold up signs until your arms fall off. More power to ya, express your views. But personally I think this war is necessary and so do alot of other people, so think twice before you speak on behalf of the rest of the world.

[dik.n.ur.ear]

all the assholes like this deserve to blow themselves up....so i guess i could say yeah i am for war.....and nascar



Originally posted by alleniverson
I like how you have chosen to speak on behalf of 'the rest of the world'.
Lots of people are for the war, so your statement is inaccuarate.

You can not just sit back and not do anything because youre afraid of possible retaliation. Doing that, you will never accomplish anything.
Heres an example..You see some gangbanger and hes by himself at a party talking with your sister. Your sister turns him down for a date and the guy hits her. Do you fight the guy or just not do anything because youre afraid he'll get his boys against you?
Theres not a real clear cut answer I guess. But personally Id fight him and worry about the retaliation later.

In a strange sense, thats kinda what youre talking about concerning the possible war. You think we shouldnt do anything to stop possible nuclear attacks on America and/or other parts of the world simply because other people will 'hate us'. Thats a weak argument and doesnt hold any water.

If you dont like the war, dont fight in it. Simple as that. I respect your right to protest. You can protest and hold up signs until your arms fall off. More power to ya, express your views. But personally I think this war is necessary and so do alot of other people, so think twice before you speak on behalf of the rest of the world.

[imported_Europe]

If the USA go over and fights Iraq, which they probaly will do no matter what, do you then think that

a. The USA gets more enemies?
b. The USA gets more allies?

Right now the allies are already leaving the USA to their own business and there is no chance in hell that a war will make the USA more popular in the MiddleEast, muslim-ruled countries or peaceloving nations.

And like Poop Man siad, nobody is convinced by the "evidence" the USA claims to have. But I guess that doesnt matter to some people that knows better than the rest of the world.

[imported_Tesseract]

[img]http://www.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/438183_b.jpg'>
Athens.
i was there

Word Europe!!!

fuck the war
fuck bush

[imported_Europe]

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300kdh_b7aa56e2e5298a09.jpg'>
Holding signs till our arms fall off...

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300kik_4bcb54191b913d9a.jpg'>
In Greece, the giant banner reads:
NATO + U.S + EU = WAR = Barbarity
Fight for peace and culture

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300kkg_5e4f75431f39a4fd.jpg'>
Getting ready in London

[•nakEd]

The world would be a better place without war
but the government sucks... let them money hungry
ho's do what they want, because they act like
you have an opinion in what will happen... but they dont
give 2shits about what you have to say....

just keep it real nigga!

[imported_Europe]

[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.south.africa.johann.jpg'>
Johannesburg, South Africa

[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.germany.berlin.ap.jpg'>
350.000 protesters at the Brandenburger Tor in Berlin, Germany

[woo woo woo]

Originally posted by alleniverson
Heres an example..You see some gangbanger and hes by himself at a party talking with your sister. Your sister turns him down for a date and the guy hits her. Do you fight the guy or just not do anything because youre afraid he'll get his boys against you?
Theres not a real clear cut answer I guess. But personally Id fight him and worry about the retaliation later.


What a horrible analogy...Who is our little sister? Iraq hasn't done anything to any other country, so basically we're gonna fight the gangbanger just because there's the possibility that he could hit our sister. That's just not how things are supposed to work.

[HESHIANDET]

i respect everyones opinions on this issue, BUT. i WAS anti war before i had to do some serious research on the topic for a debate. so untill you guys (and the millions who are also protesting) hit the books in a serious way, not just some google searches you are playing yourself. straight up. you may not want to hear it, but its true. sad fact is people will die, how many is the question. and YES i have family in the military righ tnow. so yeahhhhhhhhhh

[Vlad]

Theres no point in arguing about this issue here because its almost impossible to change ppls point of view

And yes, no war

[alleniverson]

Originally posted by woo woo woo
What a horrible analogy...Who is our little sister? Iraq hasn't done anything to any other country, so basically we're gonna fight the gangbanger just because there's the possibility that he could hit our sister. That's just not how things are supposed to work.

Fuck it, it was a bad analogy. But now Europe has taken up speaking for 'the rest of the world'. If any of those people had jobs or something productive to do they wouldnt have time to stand around and recreate the 60s with their stupid signs. Why dont you go out and do something? Fuck if you believe that strongly you can go over to Iraq and fight against America. John Walker is someone I respect. Protesting fucks like this, I do not. Actually put your ass on the front line. If youre American, at the very least you could go to another country, you know your tax dollars fund the war, right?

And all of you are the same ones who complain about 9/11 and say the govt should have known and stopped them before it happened, etc. Thats what theyre trying to do here.

I know its all the rage among alot of you to be anti-whateverthegovernmentisdoing and it makes you seem ultra-smart that you dont 'believe the lies of the media and government', so someone like me who believes differently must be an idiot. Honestly, when is the last time any of you liked something the government did? Ill bet it was sometime during the Clinton administration since he seems to be the only president to be somewhat liked by the anti-everything folks.
And by the way, Clinton was a great president, but I dont remember too much protesting when he bombed the supposed 'weapons factory' in Sudan.

Keep holding up those signs..I still see arms.

[imported_Europe]

Originally posted by alleniverson
[B]But now Europe has taken up speaking for 'the rest of the world'. If any of those people had jobs or something productive to do they wouldnt have time to stand around and recreate the 60s with their stupid signs. [B]

Its a fucking Saturday man, people have their weekends!

Your points and analogies are so played... Youre like a grumpy old man telling young poeple to get haircuts and jobs, get over it.

[Poop Man Bob]

Originally posted by alleniverson
I like how you have chosen to speak on behalf of 'the rest of the world'.
Lots of people are for the war, so your statement is inaccuarate.

Pardon my use of sarcasm. I'll refrain from it in future posts.



You can not just sit back and not do anything because youre afraid of possible retaliation. Doing that, you will never accomplish anything.
Heres an example..You see some gangbanger and hes by himself at a party talking with your sister. Your sister turns him down for a date and the guy hits her. Do you fight the guy or just not do anything because youre afraid he'll get his boys against you?
Theres not a real clear cut answer I guess. But personally Id fight him and worry about the retaliation later.

In a strange sense, thats kinda what youre talking about concerning the possible war. You think we shouldnt do anything to stop possible nuclear attacks on America and/or other parts of the world simply because other people will 'hate us'. Thats a weak argument and doesnt hold any water.



So, in your completely asinine example, I assume that the gangbanger is Iraq and my sister is .... uhm ... well. The US? Iraq's own people? Daddy Bush? The Twin Towers?

And when did Iraq hit my unascertained sister? 9-11? (no proof of connection). Desert Storm? (this has no relation, since, using your line of reasoning, the US at that point did beat up the gangbanger). Breaking treaties promising the nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction? (Like I stated earlier, no proof).

Your extended metaphor makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, your unwillingness to look beyond the imminent future ("personally Id fight him and worry about the retaliation later") is our government's central problem when deciding which conflicts in which to involve themselves. The US was supplying Saddam with arms in the 80s in order to battle Iran. Now that the USSR is no more and Iran isn't their puppet, we're the first in line to insist upon Iraq's disarmament.


If you dont like the war, dont fight in it. Simple as that.

Done. But, maybe, just maybe, I'd rather those I know not be sent over to die. Perhaps I don't want people I don't even know sent to die.




You failed to address anything I said in my previous post, especially re: the lack of proof of weapons of mass destruction and why Iraq rather than the rest of the Axis of Evil. Say something of substance for once.

[Cracked Ass]

Originally posted by alleniverson
Actually put your ass on the front line.

Practice what you preach, there, killer.
Are you ready to give your life to protect US oil interests?
The case for war here is so thin that it sets a dangerous precedent. Other countries can invade their long-hated neighbors for weak reasons and cite the US going after Iraq as equally weak. There goes Taiwan, Chechnya and who knows what else.

[Poop Man Bob]

Originally posted by alleniverson
If any of those people had jobs or something productive to do they wouldnt have time to stand around and recreate the 60s with their stupid signs. Why dont you go out and do something? Fuck if you believe that strongly you can go over to Iraq and fight against America. John Walker is someone I respect. Protesting fucks like this, I do not. Actually put your ass on the front line. If youre American, at the very least you could go to another country, you know your tax dollars fund the war, right?

I know its all the rage among alot of you to be anti-whateverthegovernmentisdoing and it makes you seem ultra-smart that you dont 'believe the lies of the media and government', so someone like me who believes differently must be an idiot. Honestly, when is the last time any of you liked something the government did?

Don't assume that because one is against the war, they are therefore against everything the US government does. You can extend anything anyone says to the nth degree, but it doesn't make their initial statement incorrect. Here's a link (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/) to help yourself out.

[dojafx]

The Current Axis of Evil:

Iran
Iraq
North Korea
Libya
Cuba

I know i'm missing a few more countries
i think syria is on the list but i'm not sure

[dukeofyork]

Originally posted by Cracked Ass
Practice what you preach, there, killer.
Are you ready to give your life to protect US oil interests?
The case for war here is so thin that it sets a dangerous precedent. Other countries can invade their long-hated neighbors for weak reasons and cite the US going after Iraq as equally weak. There goes Taiwan, Chechnya and who knows what else.


all kidding aside, this issue is so fucked, that its basically a lose-lose situation. i mean, if iraq is or already has developed "weapons of mass destruction" we already know that they hate us. thats what bush and his associates are putting out there, that they are out for our blood when the opportunity presents itself. do you or i KNOW whether or not iraq has these weapons or wants to cause us harm? we all have our opinions on the matter, and everyone is always so quick to jump down peoples throats for what others believe. and then you have all the countries in the middle east that have been watching us and judging our every move. how do they really feel? do they hate us as much as we are lead to believe? you can say that 9/11 was planned by our government, but seriously, if it was uncovered that it was done by our government, what would happen to those that plotted it? would they really risk their asses in such a way? if we sit back and act like iraq isnt up to anything at all, then we run the risk of being attacked. if we attack iraq, we run the risk of being attacked by other countries that didnt like us to begine with (maybe?). who is to say they wouldnt attack us at some point anyway? the reason they dont like us is the society that we live in. where people do as they feel, and dont worry about sin as long as they are happy. face it, our morals have gone straight down the shitter. our country was already headed into the trash can because of the environment we've created for ourselves. and it isnt democrat or republican party to blame. its EVERYONE. this used to be a country founded on morals, but what happened to all that? all that shit has been thrown out the window...and for what? for oil? for political gains? for personal gains? we write on shit all the time, breaking the laws ourselves....stealing along the way....for what reasons? fame? partially. to fuck the system? yea, that too. but are we really helping a cause, or are we just adding to the problem? take a look at hegemony theories.....our country has been on top for too long apparently. we could just try to cut ourselves out of every conflict, but then we run the risk of being attacked for our past. others arent going to forget the past, whether it was our own fault for getting involved or if we had a just reason. if we go out guns blazing, we'll probably lost a good percentage of our population. in my opinion, our time is through. how do we want to go out?

[johnny]

PATIENTLY WATING TO BE NUKED IN NEW YORK

[kido]

Everytime I say "axis of evil" i feel dumb.

[dukeofyork]

maybe its not a feeling....



just fuckin with ya..
:D

[Poop Man Bob]

'LARGEST' ANTI-WAR PROTESTS IN HISTORY OF EUROPE (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11790-2003Feb15.html)

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by HESHIANDET
i respect everyones opinions on this issue, BUT. i WAS anti war before i had to do some serious research on the topic for a debate. so untill you guys (and the millions who are also protesting) hit the books in a serious way, not just some google searches you are playing yourself. straight up. you may not want to hear it, but its true. sad fact is people will die, how many is the question. and YES i have family in the military righ tnow. so yeahhhhhhhhhh

dude, with all due respect..you cant assume all of our knowledge extends on google searches...as well that all those millions are uneducated people that dont know the facts....what are the facts that make it so clear to you?

wishes for your family anyway, people are people..

[sneak]

of course i think there shouldnt be war, but if they do have link with al quaida then i think saddam hussein should be forced to step down or whatever. forgive me if im quite ignorant

[imported_Tesseract]

Noone is in favor of saddam...anti war doesnt mean go saddam...

[sneak]

ok, fair enough. one question ive always thought is why does the west (mainly the us) just think they can controll and dictate who rules what country. why do they think they have 1st choice?

[imported_Europe]

"You don't fight terrorism with a preventive war," said Tommaso Palladini, 56, who traveled from Milan to Rome to protest with 1 million others. "You fight terrorism by creating more justice in the world."

[imported_Tesseract]

thats the whole argument homeboy...fuck that shit

fuck bush
fuck war

[grittylifer]

i dont really care to much about iraq. im selfishly insulated in my infidel american life and can not be affected by the fact that millions of iraqi children are living in poverty and malnutrition and dieing of cancer from depleted uranium left over from the last gulf war.

what really pisses me off is the following,
bush didnt even win the 00 election.
regime change in iraq has been a longstanding goal of republican hawks, WHO ON TV HAVE ADMITTED TAKING OVER IRAQ WAS PLANNED BEFORE BUSH EVEN TOOK POWER.
The september 11 attacks were clearly preventable in anyway you look at it, if federal regulations would have been followed, the jets would have never been able to reach their targets.
our economy is shit while the rich are still getting richer.
bush continues showing complete and utter disrespect and ignorance to the rest of the world while the feds are sending people to prison regardless of the fact that their actions are legal under laws citizens in california voted in.
north korea is able to nuke us on the west coast.
and besides that, iraq couldnt hit us if they wanted to. al quida is not down with irag. and a war in the middle east is all bad.
mother fuckers talking about premptive nuclear strikes.
hmmm..lets use weapons of mass destruction cause hes got weapons of mass destruction.

if they try to take bagdahd, expect a us body count in the thousandsl-cause that mother fucker has used chem. weapons on enemy troops before, as well as his own people. 5000 iranian soldiers killed in one battle.
besides, saddam cant even whup the kurds.

and now they got the patriot act two and shit......
in short, were fucked.

have a nice day.

[imported_Tesseract]

"We Germans in particular have a duty to do everything to ensure that war - above all a war of aggression - never again becomes a legitimate means of policy," shouted Friedrich Schorlemmer


...listen to that.

[imported_Europe]

^^
I guess Bush and the USA didnt think Hitler was wrong after all...

Oh, I didnt, did I...?

[Poop Man Bob]

State of the Union - Not Good (http://adbusters.org/abtv/movies/spotlight/state_of_the_union/qtpd_high.html)

[johnny]

that was entertaining bob.

[yoink]

i have to pose this question,
what is goin to take for people to realize that we do not live in a society where everyone is goin to get along? all in all these movements will most likely amount to nothing, moving on their part but in the big picture, semi meaningless, im no war monger, nor a right winger but sometimes theres a reality to thngs, i respect peoples opinions here, this is just a thought,
besides all the underlying subplots of war on iraq (anything from oil, trying to gain pop, bush is retarded) the threat is real, and its sad to think that its goin to take another 9-11 for people to once again feel the same way. I would rather attempt to stop things before they happen again, because the simple matter of fact is people dont like america, their ideals and the people that live there and are willing to harm/kill people for their "cause" now that is my family and friends in the crosshairs, and id rather protect that than let it simply hapen because we can work it out "peacefully" no war is never a good thing, its a tragic reality, warfare has been married to mankind since probably the dawn of time, not too be a dick but we "deal with it"
this was not meant to be a pro bush, pro war fuck everyone post, just kinda another viewpoint on the situation, i appreciate everyones posts here (the thoughtful ones) and this was just another 2 cents to the thought bank.
anyways my prayers are out to all innocents involved.

[socrates]

No offense to all the peaceful protestors but I think at a certain point if want someone to listen to you, you're gonna have to light something on fire. All the protest that I've been to in the US have been peaceful and some of them quite large but none of them had alot of press coverage and not that many people outside of those directly affected knew about them. I'm not for all out anarchy, but I'm not saying I couldn't use some new home furnishings and a nice jacket for those cold nights.

[grittylifer]

the threat is real because of us foriegn policy. let me spell it out for you, the reason people want to kill americans is because of i s r a e l i actions. we support them completely. they kill people and have settlements illegal under international law.

so if your concerened that the threat is real, how much realer do you think its going to get when we annex an oil rich country and kill a few million of its citizens. in the first gulf war millions of iraqis were killed including 500,000 CHILDREN.

starting a war does deal with the threat, it substantially increases it.

suppose we took the seventy or so billion dollars that is about to be blown on this bullshit war and assisted in repairing war damaged infrastructure in palestine. do you think we would have thousands of militants wanting to kill us if we are building them schools and hospitals, power plants and economic infrastructure.

do you not recall saddams scorched earth policy?

and besides that, you know that with bush their's dick..who's haliburton oil company has bought oil from iraq while iraq was under embargo, so outright, the vice presidents company has been bankrolling iraq until now. just like the taliban.
and to top it all off, WE GAVE THE PSYCHO MOTHER FUCKER THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION TO BEGIN WITH.

starting a war is the absolute worst possible course of action to pursue.



Originally posted by yoink
i the threat is real, and its sad to think that its goin to take another 9-11 for people to once again feel the same way. I would rather attempt to stop things before they happen again, because the simple matter of fact is people dont like america, their ideals and the people that live there and are willing to harm/kill people for their "cause" now that is my family and friends in the crosshairs, and id rather protect that than let it simply hapen because we can work it out "peacefully" no war is never a good thing, its a tragic reality, warfare has been married to mankind since probably the dawn of time, not too be a dick but we "deal with it"

[J3NF3R]

bomb those fuckers.
nobody was protesting when they killed our people.

[bodice_ripper]

[img]http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0215/Dublin3.jpg'>

[img]http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0215/Dublin.jpg'>

Dublin, Ireland 120,000 + (which is not bad for a city of slightly less than 1 million)

[grittylifer]

^
sniff sniff.....

is that ignorance i smell j3n3fer

[J3NF3R]

whatever...
it's still better to get them before they get us. and if we back down, you know they'll start shit. they're all power hungry S.O.B's and you gotta do what's necessary to survive.

[yoink]

Originally posted by ********
..............................
yeah first off simma down naw. :cool:
second. i dont need a lecture nor do i need people spewing off facts.
third im glad to hear you voice your opinions,
fourth, i wasnt posting what we should do, or anyone should do, only some thoughts on the matter.



suppose we took the seventy or so billion dollars that is about to be blown on this bullshit war and assisted in repairing war damaged infrastructure in palestine. do you think we would have thousands of militants wanting to kill us if we are building them schools and hospitals, power plants and economic infrastructure.

and....yes ;)

[T.T Boy]

i went to the beach and got tangled in a fishing net.


war is gay.

[.:armr:.]

i know what people say doesnt change opions...BUT...heres a quote i think people will enjoy...

"If your 21 and not a Democrat, your evil. But if your 35, and not a Republican, your stupid."

i hope people see where im going with this

stop being so idealistic and get a grip on real life

id rather see iraqi children die than my children die because of some terrorist with a suit case nuke

oh yeah...and about no blood for oil
well
why do you think the countries against war, are against it
they dont have oil wells
they import it
hmm
who has oil
iraq
hmmm
lets think...
we have oil
we dont need iraqs
and
if politicians are so greedy, why waste billions on a "bullshit" war
and without this so called "oil"
these liberals wouldnt be able to drive their kia's around perfectville, suburbia and college campuses

what else...i had another point but i can think

fuck

well if i think of it ill post it

but yeah...i hope some people atleast get another view to look at this war

its bad...i dont want to see people die

but rather them than us...yeah i know im going to hell

[.:armr:.]

oh wait

and 500,000 iraqi kids

1. where do you get these numbers

2. with all the tax dollars but into these smart bombs...i think we can manage to miss the mass iraqi orphanage camps they have set up around the country...they flipped out over a bomb hitting a bus...i think theyd tell us about 500,000 kiddies

[imported_grim540]

as for my reason why I am not against the war.....that is a whole another big long post

as for the French oppisition(sp)

French Military History in a Nutshell
The Complete Military History of France

- Gallic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, and Italian.

- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman."

-Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

-The Dutch War - Tied

-War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

-War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution - In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

-World War II - Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina - Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador, fails after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?" but rather "How long until France collapses?" "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

[TEARZ]

Originally posted by Tesseract
"We Germans in particular have a duty to do everything to ensure that war - above all a war of aggression - never again becomes a legitimate means of policy," shouted Friedrich Schorlemmer


...listen to that.

wurd to fuggin god homey. there's a lot of ignorant dudes up in the mix. thanks europe for a very nice thread. i wasn't able to attend; i work in non-profit and had a previous social-justice engagement, but my whole family and all of my friends that are not completely apathetic or have substance abuse problems were all out today.

TEARS.
fuck a war
fuck a bu$hmoney millionaire
fuck US foriegn policy
and fuck a fucking israel and us support of them
holla.

[.:armr:.]

sorry to be a bother...

but when 9/11 happened

they cheered

they fucking cheered

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by .:armr:.


id rather see iraqi children die than my children die because of some terrorist with a suit case nuke



g'wan, tell me how war on iraq will prevent this? hmm?

if anything, it makes it all the more likely, as war will give these people yet another reason to hate america.

[.:armr:.]

hey grim 540...since you did that whole france thing i think youll like this


"going to war without france is like going to war without an accordian"

you used that i just noticed...my fault...but your whole thing was very whitty and entertaining...and convincing...but one wayed liberals hate us
lol


:P


oh adn the iraqi children thing...well...itll sure scare the shit out of them because the us has been a bunch of pussies with this whole war on terror...what a waste of money

[harry]

stop hte war...has the us not learned from vietnam,has britain not learned from their involvement in ireland??why dont u guys find bin ladin?? weak ,unproven evidence doesent give usa the right to stomp all over iraq because saddam has weapons of mass destruction(that you guys have too)thousands of ordinary people will suffer needlessly and a war will just increase hate of america by moslems worldwide..millions of people spoke today..bush and blair need to listen...if not i really think you guys will find terrorism on your doorstep again.one u start bombin iraq. like pissin in the wind it will all come back in your face..backing the taliban to oust the russians /norhtern alliance..now backing the northern alliance to oust taliban,backing iraq when they were fighting iran(coz they were pissing usa off)now planning fighting iraq..wake up america you cant play puppetmaster to the world and expect nuthin to happen...thousands of people have died at the hands of american state sponsered terrorism too..why not spend the money on positive projects rebuilding confidence in america by helping these third world countries with schools/water /agriculture/industry instead of blowing the shit out of them????

[.:armr:.]

people act like we never do any positive things

we fund sooooooooooooooooo many programs in other countries and they just piss alllllll over us

fuck isreal...their a prime example

fuck frace...well..i mean cmon now

fuck the world

grow up and stop being so idealist

at this point in my life, id rather keep the money IN the country

america should be like the roman empire

even though their senators were gay...and ours are homophobic rednecks lol

IM ALL FOR ELITISM

good book for all you worms out there
In Defense of Elitism by William A. Henry III

:)

[J3NF3R]

armr seems to be one of the only people with a fucking brain in here. i agree with him 100%

[bodice_ripper]

seems the body has been forced to live without the mind for some time now......

[.:armr:.]

thanks :)

i went to a liberal arts school

thats why im so against them haha

jk

well...not really

please dont think im being one sided all your anti war peoples..im really not

i may sound evil...but thats just my 2 cents


they should make a chat room...i feel like such a tool doing 9348403 posts in like 3 mins

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
seems the body has been forced to live without the mind for some time now......


cute one eurotrash...i didnt want to start name calling...i hope you get hit by a stray too ;)

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by .:armr:.


america should be like the roman empire



no doubt you picked this little sound-bite out of your book.

one would do well to note that Rome fell because it was power-hungry and poorly run, and spread itself too thin while trying to control the world - leaving itself open to attack by those with whom it had interferred

[.:armr:.]

good point eurotrash...another good one is russia...i mean cmon now...thats pretty big ;)

actually not it wasnt from the book though...but hey...rome was pretty cool...you gotta give them that...you ever see gladiator...

jk

your right...i take that back

i shouldve used a much better example...:(

[.:armr:.]

but ill take a sound bit out of the matrix...like i did "body with out mind" quote thingy


IGNORANCE IS BLISS

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by .:armr:.
good point eurotrash...another good one is russia...i mean cmon now...thats pretty big ;)



the people of Russia are starving and being wiped out by TB

[.:armr:.]

i shouldve said

why ussr didnt work

haha oh man...on cops...some cop is drivin to a call...and theres all these other cruisers infront of the house...and hes like "i wonder if this is the house"

man hes dumb

[RAGSOE]

a few questions, or statements, or whatever:

people have stated that they are not convinced that saddam has nuclear capabilities/weapons. what is your opinion on his nuclear status then, i'm very curious. please think realistically using what you know of saddam and his country. i'm not convinced that people three times my size can pick me up and toss me, i have no proof until it happens, but i think i'll take that one for granted, along with accepting or at least dealing with the extreme possibility that saddam has a little more then some rifles, and that that is why he is making it so hard for u.n. inspectors.

i'm not stating that osama and hussein are linked. how does this event warrant a world-wide protest, almost all anti-war, and in my opinion the 9-11 attacks warranted no where near the world involvment, protest wise. not saying these are related, just grouping the two for example. what are your opinions?

if no war, then what do you suggest we do about saddam, ignore because he's not attacking us at the moment?, wait until he does and then attack?, what do you guys think?

i in no way agree with war, but i do think saddam is a threat to u.s and global safety and way of life. why a war? why can't we just go kill saddam himself, is this possible? innocents are just that, and it's horrible what happens to them in times of war. any intelligent ideas to go about this idea?

just some thoughts.... attempting not to ramble....

[TranceStoner]

I was at the NYC protest today. It was FUCKING HUGE!!! The cops did there best to separate people and not let them get to the main event by blocking off roads and making people weave in and out of streets...but then people started shouting LET US THROUGH over and over again and the cops took the baracades down. It was a great day...I ended up watching the speeches on a huge screen they had set up. As I was heading back to the subway, the Bread and Puppet Theater was having a seperate march and I joined that.

I think this war is bull shit and I think that more and more people are realizing it. For the first time in a while I saw pretty good coverage on the world wide marches on NBC. They downplayed it a little by saying that mostly Europe was against it and not talking much about the USA. But they did a decent job of showing the marches. Peace to those on both sides of this conversation.

DROP BUSH NOT BOMBS!

[SIVIK]

Iraq deffinatly has 2 be disarmed.If u look back over the last 5 years & read bout some of the bombs & nerve gas sadham has used on his own ppl its fukn unbeleivable.He is a threat 2 his neighbouring counties such as israil & 2 the rest of the world if he uses nuclear weapons.Peoples veiws might change if the knew the full details of his caperbilites & what we hear in the media wouldnt be 10% of whats really going on.The wheels are already set in motion so i rekon the war is inevitable & ppl are deffinatly intitled 2 a opinon on whats right or moral but whos really listening,the UN???No chance.The US doesnt have the surrport of the entire UN but little johny howars didnt hesitate in sending over hundreds of our troops 2 sit out in the persian gulf as "sitting ducks".America should limit the cervilan causulitys more so than what they did in the gulf war when they got a fuk load of intellengce wrong & dropt scuds on bomb refuge shelters.What the fucks up with that??The commander of that mission should be put b4 a war crimes triburnul.I dont see it as a battle 4 oil but it doesnt hurt americas cause & sadham is also the man that publicly put a contract on bush's dad during the gulf.Its been reported that america wants 2 capture whole city's such as bagdad,how many soliders are gonna die then?After hearing that all i thought was scenes from "black hawk down" thats hardcore.Appently US wants 2 kill sadham within the first 2-3 days of combat 2 save a long war.I dout this will happen due 2 the fact he's got a labrinth of under groung bunkers & at least 1 other imposter.Who knows maybe they will get lucky with some help from the informers they already have in iraq that couldnt resist the $$$ 4 vital info.When the US does bomb whats the repercusions gonna be in your homeland??Hopefully no more innocent lives are gonna be lost.Whats it going 2 take 4 it 2 end though thats what i wanna know?

Just my 2cents,its been a long night.

[Ski Mask]

went out today to take photos, and show support. estimates here were 20-50,000 people...somewhere in the middle seems accurate to me. Mobs of people far as you could see down the street.
[img]http://www.nothingbutfreights.com/nowar/cplacemob.jpg'>
[img]http://www.nothingbutfreights.com/nowar/mob.jpg'>
[img]http://www.nothingbutfreights.com/nowar/justicenotwar.jpg'>
[img]http://www.nothingbutfreights.com/nowar/downburrard.jpg'>
[img]http://www.nothingbutfreights.com/nowar/crowdpan.jpg'>

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by TranceStoner
Peace to those on both sides of this conversation.



thank you for being friendly :)


this is about opions eurotrash...not name calling...do i really care if some1 on the other side of my computer screen really cares

[.:armr:.]

i wish these protesters would come up with better things than "no blood for oil"...ive only seen a few provocative ones...i dunno...most of these people are like college students...im a 16 straight F 10th grader...and i think id be able to come up with something original...lol sry


iraqi children ask "what have we done"...thats a good one
soldiers are terrorists...thats ok...but thats arguable if they are
terrorism -the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

but i dont get why all these protesters wear like gap and all that..and all those underground clothing companys...all the cloth comes from the same place...i mean cmon...we know all that shit comes from sweat shops...im wearin nikie kicks nautica jeans and a gap shirt...and atleast i know a kid got 3 cents to make it...am i a bad person?

[Brownbread?]

Originally posted by ********
i dont really care to much about iraq. im selfishly insulated in my infidel american life and can not be affected by the fact that millions of iraqi children are living in poverty and malnutrition and dieing of cancer from depleted uranium left over from the last gulf war.


mother fuckers talking about premptive nuclear strikes.
hmmm..lets use weapons of mass destruction cause hes got weapons of mass destruction.


couldn't have said it better myself *** . Bush has no clue on what the fuck he's doing. His propaganda team is still using tactics from like the wwII era and sadly some idiots are eating it up. His whole shit is sloppy and his agruement on war with Iraq are weak as shit. Fact is Iraq has weapons, this is not new infromation. But to say Iraq is the biggest threat to the US at this moment is silly. This is just a waste of time n money that could be spent else where. Its not like if we bomb Iraq terrorism will go away the next day. Why not go after the actual terrorists(Bin Laden)? As much as we'd benefit from raping Iraq, going to war right now is not worth it. The effects after a war with Iraq will hurts us. Plus terrorism will still exist.

[ArtvandaL]

visit my

*12oz activism site*

and the war on Iraq is going to be a very bad decision because it will only piss off the rest of the world, and the US only wants money, george bush wants to kill Hussein for trying to kill bushs daddy, american soldiers are going to die, not bush, bush is going to be thousands of miles away, he can care less about the american soldiers. he doesnt have support, he is not convincing, and the weapons that Iraq has can be made in a high school laboratory. shit, i havent even seen Osama bin Ladens head yet, that only means one thing, hes still alive and well.

By the way, theres going to be a big ass protest in lower manhattan february somehting, ill get back at with the exact date. and yo ese, is that downtown L.A.?, it looks cold, i didnt know it gets cold in LA. well, salamualaikum

[imported_Europe]

Originally posted by .:armr:.
this is about opions eurotrash...not name calling...

^^

Not namecalling? Who are you calling eurotrash then?

[imported_Europe]

Copenhagen 30.000+

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300krp_497f9724d6aac0de.jpg'>

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300ks2_3485df792959e2bf.jpg'>

[img]http://www.berlingske.dk/grafik/redaktion/3E4E7D5E:00005654:71-large-Demopix.JPG'>

[swif1]

[img]http://www.politiken.dk/images/6j300ks2_3485df792959e2bf.jpg'>

hahaha...he's wearing a yellow NY beanie. hahahaha

[grittylifer]

Norman Shwarzkopf stated that 500,000 iraqi children or it mighta been only 250,000 were killed during the gulf war, i think total iragi body count was like two and a half million. i think i seen him on pbs.



Originally posted by .:armr:.
oh wait

and 500,000 iraqi kids

1. where do you get these numbers

2. with all the tax dollars but into these smart bombs...i think we can manage to miss the mass iraqi orphanage camps they have set up around the country...they flipped out over a bomb hitting a bus...i think theyd tell us about 500,000 kiddies

[SIVIK]

Like what browner said terrorism will still xsist after the war with iraq.

[SIVIK]

Like what browner said terrorism will still xsist after the war with iraq.

[TranceStoner]

BUSH WAS A DRAFT DODGER!!! THIS WAR IS BEING FAUGHT BY THE POOR MAN!

[imported_grim540]

Originally posted by .:armr:.
hey grim 540...since you did that whole france thing i think youll like this

"going to war without france is like going to war without an accordian"

you used that i just noticed...my fault...but your whole thing was very whitty and entertaining...and convincing...but one wayed liberals hate us
lol
oh adn the iraqi children thing...well...itll sure scare the shit out of them because the us has been a bunch of pussies with this whole war on terror...what a waste of money

not quite a liberal myself...
but there is no way in hell I want to be included with a bunch of elitist fucks.

I am a military brat and a little bit of history buff

Bush is a moron who is acting on a personal vendetta against Hussien.

I am just not a big fan of muderous despots with no respect for human life (Hussien). Talk to an iraqi defector, or one of those poor souls that survived one of his gas attacks, it seems people really dont care what they have to say in this matter. So if someone like Hussien is going down in the war I am not against that... but that is about it. War is a ugly, brutal, disgusting, thing, the absoulte lowest thing people are capable of. Peace is beautiful, but an apathetic "look the other way" peace for the sake of peace is no alternative to war.

Sadly, war is neccasary in our world.

So if.......not if, when the war goes down, we will win, do the "nation building thing" and move on to something else, and 20 years down the line Iraq will much likely be a better place for it. We have done it before, and those nations have moved on, and in some cases, become our equals.

A lot of people are all afraid of a WW3 situation or something really bad happening. Well sadly, I am almost at the point of welcoming such an event. I hope we come close to the brink of extinction, it seems that the only way the the world is going to learn. Human civilization needs to move on from this 3rd grade mentality it has been stuck in for the last few hundred years.

America doesn't need to be like the Roman Empire, it is the Roman Empire, and I think bodice pointed out to you what happened to the Romans. I dont want my grand chilrden to grow up in America, I want them to grow up on some floating city on a moon orbiting Jupiter. Is that going to happen in a world like ours?

[T.T Boy]

this war is just?




come on, dont bullshit me.

[Dirty_habiT]

fuck - your - antiwar

get pissed.

[T.T Boy]

[img]http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0302/otsc.popup/gallery.rome.3.jpg'>
roma

[Dirty_habiT]

ttboy>>> get on AIM.

[ana]

I'll add my 2 cents-If the US is going to war to disarm Iraq because they have weapons of mass destruction, aren't they risking Iraq setting off these weapons? Maybe bloodthirsty dictators, Hussein being hardly a role model for saints, think differently than I, but if you were being attacked, wouldn't you use all the weapons you could get your grubby little hands on?
Personally I think Bush can look forward to many more terrorist attacks if he continues on this plan-having no guarantee that Saddam will not let loose his weapons of mass destruction before Bush gets to them and giving Al Quada and the like another example to say "hey look Americans killed your brother/father/sisters, etc, why don't you set off a bomb/dirty bomb/plane,etc... in the US and get revenge?"

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Originally posted by chester
FUCK BUSH

[grittylifer]

your mad fly sexy huh?

Originally posted by ana
I'll add my 2 cents-If the US is going to war to disarm Iraq because they have weapons of mass destruction, aren't they risking Iraq setting off these weapons? Maybe bloodthirsty dictators, Hussein being hardly a role model for saints, think differently than I, but if you were being attacked, wouldn't you use all the weapons you could get your grubby little hands on?
Personally I think Bush can look forward to many more terrorist attacks if he continues on this plan-having no guarantee that Saddam will not let loose his weapons of mass destruction before Bush gets to them and giving Al Quada and the like another example to say "hey look Americans killed your brother/father/sisters, etc, why don't you set off a bomb/dirty bomb/plane,etc... in the US and get revenge?"

[ana]

ummm well certainly mad

[aichs47]

Originally posted by Ronnie Dobbs


da pussy fi dead

[grittylifer]

in what kinna way?...
mad like bush is in the white house while dick is behind the scenes with colon?

or mad like its a world gone mad?


Originally posted by ana
ummm well certainly mad

[Giving Tree]

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak for me.

MARTIN NIEMOELLER

[BROWNer]

there was a protest here, but i worked all day and couldn't make it, regrettably.

i'm am fully down with the promotion of peace and anti-war demonstrations to
stop the incredibly weak and disgusting daily PR spectacle by the white house.
i am so sick of the tone, the insult to everyone's intelligence, the veiled disses to the members of the UN, the handy terror alerts that inevitably end up being false becuz some al qaeda suspect supposedly faked out the fbi, the utter fanaticism that they claim to be so morally superior to...................
what are we coming up to now, 5 months straight of iraq white house spin every goddamn day?

[ana]

Originally posted by alder
No offense to all the peaceful protestors but I think at a certain point if want someone to listen to you, you're gonna have to light something on fire. All the protest that I've been to in the US have been peaceful and some of them quite large but none of them had alot of press coverage and not that many people outside of those directly affected knew about them. I'm not for all out anarchy, but I'm not saying I couldn't use some new home furnishings and a nice jacket for those cold nights.

Might I suggest you look at the ties between gov't, big business and big media? You might be shocked at how much CNN doesn't report.
Check some alternative news sources if you want to see coverage of activist stuff.
www.rabble.ca (http://www.rabble.ca) (more for Canucks)
www.motherjones.com (http://www.motherjones.com)
www.adbusters.org (http://www.adbusters.org)
www.alternet.org (http://www.alternet.org)
the manchester guardian or the bbc are good reliable sources too though with much more of a European focus

[ana]

Also about using violence to attract attention-Ghandi conducted a huge mass protest against British occupation of India using strictly peaceful methods. His methods were immensely successful. Granted different period, different sitch but violent methods generally blow up in your face in terms of pr. Media usually dismiss your message and concentrate on the number hurt or amount of property damaged if you use violence.Check Seattle, Quebec, Genoa protests.

[BROWNer]

or go here for something a little more stark:

cnn steez (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/devries/psyops.htm)

[VAITOMANOCU]

DRAFT THE BUSH TWINS

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by .:armr:.


this is about opions eurotrash...not name calling...

atta boy

[HESHIANDET]

5:45 am est phila. pa. usa,
im wasted out of mind, bimb iraq. just to mke you dweebs sad. i hope millions of innocent people die. word to the gods an shit.

[imported_Europe]

Signs at the NYC protest:

EMPTY WARHEADS FOUND IN WASHINGTON

LET'S BOMB TEXAS - THEY'VE GOT OIL TOO!

SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS, A VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT.

THERE'S A DICK BEHIND THE BUSH

[alleniverson]

To Europe and the other anti-war people..

at what point do you feel war is necessary?
do you feel we should be attacked first?
if so, why?

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by Europe
Signs at the NYC protest:

EMPTY WARHEADS FOUND IN WASHINGTON

LET'S BOMB TEXAS - THEY'VE GOT OIL TOO!

SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS, A VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT.

THERE'S A DICK BEHIND THE BUSH

now those are provocative :D

im pro war...a lil on the fence...but def leaning on the pro war side...and i know why people want war

simply put

fear of other humans and them losing power

there i said it:D :D

im just a lot more secure with dumb texans in power than some1 else...thats all

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by alleniverson
To Europe and the other anti-war people..

at what point do you feel war is necessary?
do you feel we should be attacked first?
if so, why?

[1] At the point were your 'secret' sources are shown to the UN and after inspection they prove to be reliable and true...if the US is so sure saddam has all those weapons and the inspectors still havent found them, why not let'em check the data???

I think its common sense that you cant convice the whole world just because you say so...

[2] inspectors are satisfyied with the corporation from the iraqis right now, and they say the investigation is moving correct, if they werent willing to corporate, that would be a reason...anyway, war is the final move and i think we have a long way till that.


As far as US being attacked, theres no way iraq, can threaten US soil with a military attack, you know that very well. The only attack you could take would be a terrorist attack...thats unpredictable, and it has nothing to do with who attacks first.

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by alder
No offense to all the peaceful protestors but I think at a certain point if want someone to listen to you, you're gonna have to light something on fire. All the protest that I've been to in the US have been peaceful and some of them quite large but none of them had alot of press coverage and not that many people outside of those directly affected knew about them. I'm not for all out anarchy, but I'm not saying I couldn't use some new home furnishings and a nice jacket for those cold nights.

I totally disagree with that, heres what a small example of what happened here yesterday:

[img]http://tovima.dolnet.gr/B/D160203/1rea5b.jpg'>

Breaking stuff is sure more fun, and you get to feel more active...but its a total illussion, the only thing you achieve is pass the wrong message, these protests were ANTI-WAR, and thats why they should remain peacefull, practise what you preach and keep your actions in context...

As far as media coverage, my impression is that the whole world saw what happened yesterday, the message was sent clearly to the US, its up to you guys to think about it or not.
alea jacta est.

[Poop Man Bob]

I e-mailed an ex-girlfriend to ask her what she thought about the impending war. This was her response:
I am utterly against it. And if there was anything I could do to stop it, I would. I personally think that Bush is the AntiChrist who will lead us into the 3rd world war that will destroy life as we know it. Look in the Bible sometime. The signs are there. (I really dont know, but Mom made us watch Left Behind and some of the signs were in there.) Any time a president who was not even elected by the majority can start a war for oil and say it is to "stop evil", not a good idea. And what is with the religious bullshit about this being about an "evil axis?" What place does the word "evil" have in politics?

Also, since my friends are in the armed forces, I think it is scary. Richie just got engaged, and sent to Kuwait in one week. If one of my friends is killed overseas, I will go crazy and personally bomb the White House.

Plus Bush is dumb. And ugly.



My current girlfriend had this to say after going to a mass that was mostly about the war:
yesterday, mass was about the war too. the priest was saying how he was conflicted b/c he wants to have pride in america and protect us against terrorism, but at the same time, we're going to be killing thousands of innocent people and who are we to just go and do this without international approval.

the gospel was about being unclean and he was saying that we as a nation are unclean by going to war. then he said that it's scary that the president has gone this far in the movement to start a war when the american people arent even behind him. it's like bush doesnt care what america is saying, he's going to do what he wants

[ArtvandaL]

Im glad I dont go to Church, fuck church

[HESHIANDET]

uhhhh, i wasn't really serious about what i said last night. i was under the *ahem* influence. im not gonna discuss this anymore, you guys are all cool w/ me, we just don't see eye to eye.

[grittylifer]

i seen some slimeball republican on a debate show,
the independant he was debating against referenced a mid 90's think tank memo from the republican conserivitives that basically outlined taking over iraq to disrupt opec and provide military supremecy for israel.

this was years before the 9/11 attacks.

which leads me to conclude that in my opinion the 9/11 attacks were allowed to happen in order to further the republican agenda of taking over iraq.

iraq is one broke ass ho of a country. the only threat the could pose is to their neighbors, most of which are not to keen on a war.

and again, if you look at whats behind al quida, its the israel palestine thing.
solve that shit, and i bet money youll rid the world of the majority of islamic extremist terror.

did anyone see the time photo essay of the chechyn rebels and the theatre in moscow?
brutal shots of passed out women rebels -passed out from gas- that were shot and killed while they were passed out.

the administration has ran our country into the dirt in the last two years. we have a fucked economy, less civil rights, a goverment that failed to protect its citizens when it had warnings of terrorist attacks, unsolved case of anthrax attacks, huge deficit, social programs are slashed while the rich are proposed to get huge tax cuts and state goverments are going broke.

i dont give two fucks about iraq. george bush has done more harm to the country i live in than the terrorists could hope to.

[ArtvandaL]

Originally posted by ********
i seen some slimeball republican on a debate show,
the independant he was debating against referenced a mid 90's think tank memo from the republican conserivitives that basically outlined taking over iraq to disrupt opec and provide military supremecy for israel.

this was years before the 9/11 attacks.

which leads me to conclude that in my opinion the 9/11 attacks were allowed to happen in order to further the republican agenda of taking over iraq.

iraq is one broke ass ho of a country. the only threat the could pose is to their neighbors, most of which are not to keen on a war.

and again, if you look at whats behind al quida, its the israel palestine thing.
solve that shit, and i bet money youll rid the world of the majority of islamic extremist terror.

did anyone see the time photo essay of the chechyn rebels and the theatre in moscow?
brutal shots of passed out women rebels -passed out from gas- that were shot and killed while they were passed out.

the administration has ran our country into the dirt in the last two years. we have a fucked economy, less civil rights, a goverment that failed to protect its citizens when it had warnings of terrorist attacks, unsolved case of anthrax attacks, huge deficit, social programs are slashed while the rich are proposed to get huge tax cuts and state goverments are going broke.

i dont give two fucks about iraq. george bush has done more harm the country i live in than the terrorists could hope to.


plus we havent seen osamas head yet!!!!!!!!!!!

[boxcarwilly]

infoshop.org helps with a good amount of unbiased straight news, and always anarchist comments on the juicy stuff.
i personally wont get involved in a diatribe against war as a last resort, tho war is a necessary evil due to greed consumption etc on both sides i dont think blowing the hell out of another country should be used as a threat and/or a consequence. everyone knows my opinions to be extremely anti-US, and have defended myself on numerous occasions... yet just a little hint at who to believe:
"Major duct tape manufacturers came out this week to the tune of: DUCT TAPE IS gaspermeable and wont do a damn thing against biowar/infectwar you are better using clear packing tape which happens to be impermeable to gas and air yet not very temperature resistant"
Thanks senor ashcroft because millions of gunjumping americans would have died just like the Jews who took showers to be clean... hmmm more parallels to Nazi America 2003.
rant.

[grittylifer]

Osama Rallies Muslims, Condemns Hussein

By William Rivers Pitt, TruthOut.com
February 12, 2003

Osama bin Laden rose from the dead yet again on Tuesday to prophesy doom and death for America. This is nothing new; he has been clawing his way out of various burial holes for seventeen months now, and always manages to strike fear into the American heart by way of the American media and the Bush administration at exactly the moment when incredibly important shifts in history are in the offing.


At this moment, George W. Bush stands almost completely alone in his desire to make pre-emptive war on the nation of Iraq. Several key NATO allies – France, Germany and Belgium among them – have thrown sand into the gears of battle by refusing to prepare Turkey for an immediate war they do not support nor deem necessary. As this incredible state of affairs unfolded, Americans found their ears ringing with orange-hued warnings of imminent death. Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge went so far as to tell people to load up on plastic sheeting and duct tape so as to bar their windows from chemical attack, but the administration he calls home made sure to tell people to live their lives normally and continue shopping.


And so it goes. This is fairly standard stuff within the American echo chamber. Let there be one important piece of legislation, or one highly embarrassing turn of events for the administration, and the word goes forth that the sky is falling. We have been dealing with this politically manufactured low-grade hysteria for many months now. Most Americans have reached a suspended state of disbelief about it all, and won't be taking these warnings seriously unless they see Osama bin Laden on their doorstep in a black cassock with scythe in hand. Bush and Ashcroft will soon run out of colors on the warning chart if this keeps up; the shade after red likely exists somewhere in the fourth dimension, visible only to ultraconservative war-hawks and media talking heads.


When the voice of Osama comes out of the television, however, things suddenly become much more serious. The Bush administration may have forgotten him entirely, but every single American still sleeps with visions of burning towers and plummeting bodies projected on the backs of their eyelids. Peter Bergen, noted terrorism expert, stated on CNN that such messages from bin Laden usually herald new attacks. If the Orange Alert was dubious on Monday, it was given new importance on Tuesday.


Secretary of State Colin Powell set the stage for this new bin Laden statement early on Tuesday, much to the surprise of CIA Director George Tenet. Powell, during testimony at a Senate Budget Committee meeting, let it drop that the Middle East news network Al Jazeera had in hand a tape of Osama bin Laden. Tenet, seated with the Intelligence Committee, had not heard of this tape. One is left wondering at Powell's sources, especially after the story unfolded.


Powell used the existence of this tape, and the words he claimed bin Laden had said on it, to further tie Saddam Hussein to international terrorism. He claimed bin Laden was clearly establishing a connection between himself and Hussein on the tape, beyond all question. "This nexus between terrorists and states that are developing weapons of mass destruction," said Powell, "can no longer be looked away from and ignored."


The actual tape, played and translated live on every major cable news channel, told a very different story. Osama bin Laden swore vengeance against America if Iraq was attacked, and demanded that the Muslim world stand in solidarity with the Muslim people of Iraq. In very clear words, Osama bin Laden told the people of Iraq to rise up against both American aggression and against "socialist" Saddam Hussein. If the translations that were provided were reliable, there is no ambiguity in bin Laden's words on the matter. So much, it seems, for Powell's case that Hussein and bin Laden are working together.


And this is where it gets interesting.


An MSNBC.com report on the bin Laden tape carried the following sentence: "At the same time, the message also called on Iraqis to rise up and oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who is a secular leader." This clearly confirms the clarity of mind Osama bin Laden displayed in regard to Saddam Hussein, and conforms to the recorded message heard by millions and millions of people around the world.


Less than twenty minutes after this report appeared on MSNBC, that sentence was deleted from the report. A few intrepid Internet news junkies, including myself, preserved what is called a 'screen-grab' of the original article before it was scrubbed. The version of the article currently in existence has replaced the text above with this far more benign text: "The taped statement reflected Saddam, a secular leader, but made it clear that Saddam was not the immediate target." A similar story line, bereft of the portions describing bin Laden's wish that Hussein be killed, has appeared in virtually every mainstream news media report on the matter.


The manner in which this story unfolded brings forth a number of serious questions.


First of all, questions must be asked regarding Colin Powell's motives in this. The recording heard by the world diverged significantly from the spin Powell put on it before the Budget Committee. Osama bin Laden did not state an alliance with Saddam Hussein, but with the Muslim civilians in Iraq who will bear the bloody brunt of any American attack. In fact, bin Laden told the Iraqi people to rise up against Hussein. This is not the way allies deal with each other.


Why would Powell go to such lengths to stretch the glaringly obvious truth in this matter? He is already suffering from a deficit of credibility in the aftermath of the plagiarism scandal that is currently rocking Tony Blair's administration. Powell stood before the UN last week and praised a British intelligence dossier that contained cut-and-pasted pages and pages of an essay, with all spelling and grammatical errors intact, written by a postgraduate student from California. The data was years out of date, flat-out contradictory in several key areas, used without the student's awareness, and yet was offered as an up-to-the-minute assessment of Iraqi weapons capabilities.


This, in combination with Powell's obviously skewed interpretation of Tuesday's bin Laden recording, forces us to call into question every single word he and the Bush administration have said on the matter. The question of whether Saddam Hussein has ties to al Qaeda terrorism and Osama bin Laden can be put to bed now, it seems, alongside the tatters and shreds of honor and dignity formerly enjoyed by the Secretary of State.


More ominously, why would a news network like MSNBC so obviously haul water for the failed allegations of the Bush administration? Events happen in seconds on the internet, but merely scrubbing uncomfortable sentences from articles cannot stop the tens of thousands of readers who are wise enough now to save the evidence before it evaporates in a cloud of silicon.


These deletions display a manifest breach of faith on behalf of MSNBC, and call to mind issues surrounding the conflict of interest that are inherent in the ownership of this network. MSNBC, along with NBC and CNBC, are owned by the corporate giant General Electric. GE is one of the largest defense contractors on the face of the earth, and will, bluntly, be paid a king's ransom in the event of a war. Following this line of questioning leads to some dark corners, indeed. How often is the data being manipulated by the corporate-owned media? Are we to rely solely on the nimble fingers of keyboarded citizens to get to the heart of the matter?


A report appearing later on Tuesday on MSNBC.com served to refute the claims of collusion between bin Laden and Hussein. "Although Powell sought to characterize the tape as a concrete link between al-Qaida and the Iraqi government," the MSNBC.com report read, "White House officials acknowledged later to NBC News that it did not. Powell did not know it had not been broadcast when he spoke to the committee and was 'a little on the front of his skis,' a government source said." These lines were buried deep within the report.


By Wednesday morning, this text had been completely removed from the article.


Virtually the entire global community stands against us today on the subject of this war, with nations willing and able to destroy NATO before allowing it to take place. The Bush administration has cut billions of dollars from street-level homeland defenders like police forces and fire houses, yet has the eagle screaming for a war that will be fought simultaneously in downtown Baghdad and in your utterly undefended neighborhood. They have the gall, simultaneously, to speak of trillion dollar tax cuts for rich people that will further debilitate our budgetary ability to defend ourselves. Links between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein have proven to be not only false, but laughable. The credibility of the Bush administration has been destroyed.


And yet we go, with the news media whistling 'Onward Christian Soldiers' all the while. The Bush administration is ecstatic, believing they can spin bin Laden's statement of support for Iraqi civilians into a connection between the terrorist and Hussein.


You are being lied to, clumsily.


Pass it on.

[.:armr:.]

it may be possible for there to be some sort of link (bin laden...hussien). i mean they all have a common enemy. US. :).

stupid isreal

if they werent so pushy

but they do have a right to be there...not to be as awful as they have been...i mean...we all know theyre just a pit stop for america...and now they think their some sort of country...cmon now

oh and just wondering...if any1 knows americas other aillies in the middle east and where we get oil from if you could post it that would be grand :)

and do you guys pro and anti war sides think they have a right to be there? is it their fault theyve been shitted on by all those people? just a thought

[.:armr:.]

oh one more thing...about george bush being a piece of shit yadda yadda...hes just a talking head...you really think he knows what hes doing

i know if i grew up son of president super rich oil tycoon...id be dumb too

he just does what hes told...who tells him...who knows...ashcroft...hes new friend ridge...whoever else is on his cabinet...chances are...there is some hidden agenda

but

i can say im scared :(

maybe the war will bring more terror...maybe not

i personally feel since america hasnt done shit to get bin laden...all those other people think they can just do what ever...but if we show some balls...who knows...im rambling once again...sowwie :(

[ArtvandaL]

fuck israel!!!

[TEARZ]

and shit is not sweet....
i had the toughest time in the world figuring out what to say to this kid, and he's been my friend for years.
everything i wrote seemed to be out of step... any common ground seemed trivial, and yet i didn't want to make the shit too heavy too read; i'm sure he's got enough shit on his mind and might want respite... fuck.
and it doesn't help matters that it will take at least 30 days to get there.

i thought it might be a good experience. it wasn't.

anti-clear thoughts.

[woo woo woo]

Originally posted by Europe
Signs at the NYC protest:

EMPTY WARHEADS FOUND IN WASHINGTON

LET'S BOMB TEXAS - THEY'VE GOT OIL TOO!

SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS, A VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT.

THERE'S A DICK BEHIND THE BUSH

[ana]

Originally posted by .:armr:.
it may be possible for there to be some sort of link (bin laden...hussien). i mean they all have a common enemy. US. :).

stupid isreal

if they werent so pushy

but they do have a right to be there...not to be as awful as they have been...i mean...we all know theyre just a pit stop for america...and now they think their some sort of country...cmon now

oh and just wondering...if any1 knows americas other aillies in the middle east and where we get oil from if you could post it that would be grand :)

and do you guys pro and anti war sides think they have a right to be there? is it their fault theyve been shitted on by all those people? just a thought

Saudia Arabia is a major US supplier and ally in the middle East. As a sidenote Osama bin Laden is actually a Saudi Arabian and Saudi Arabia funds numerous terrorist groups, possibly even his. They are also a dictatorial regime run by a royal family who rely heavily on the US's aid. Gorgeous country if you don't mind being put in jail and tortured for speaking against the gov't.

As for Israel-Israel as we now know it, is a creation of Britain after the SEcond World War. THe Zionist Movement, aka movement for a jewish homeland, started there late 19th century and Jews migrated to the British colony, living in harmony with Armenians and the Arabs. After the First World War, the BRitish gave control over to the Jewish people de facto. After the Second World War, they gave control over legally. Then shit started. Basically the British felt sorry for the Jewish people and decided to give them the territory that now is Israel without a thought for the people already living there. Imperialism at its best. The people who were living there already, the Palestinians, were understandably a little put out at their homeland being given away to the Jews. And so now you have 3 generations of Palestinians displaced and 3 generations of Jews entrenched. Complex sitch to say the least. Sins of the father being visited on the son.

[grittylifer]

Originally posted by ana
Saudia Arabia is a major US supplier and ally in the middle East. As a sidenote Osama bin Laden is actually a Saudi Arabian and Saudi Arabia funds numerous terrorist groups, possibly even his. They are also a dictatorial regime run by a royal family who rely heavily on the US's aid. Gorgeous country if you don't mind being put in jail and tortured for speaking against the gov't.

As for Israel-Israel as we now know it, is a creation of Britain after the SEcond World War. THe Zionist Movement, aka movement for a jewish homeland, started there late 19th century and Jews migrated to the British colony, living in harmony with Armenians and the Arabs. After the First World War, the BRitish gave control over to the Jewish people de facto. After the Second World War, they gave control over legally. Then shit started. Basically the British felt sorry for the Jewish people and decided to give them the territory that now is Israel without a thought for the people already living there. Imperialism at its best. The people who were living there already, the Palestinians, were understandably a little put out at their homeland being given away to the Jews. And so now you have 3 generations of Palestinians displaced and 3 generations of Jews entrenched. Complex sitch to say the least. Sins of the father being visited on the son.

The Saudi Arabian goverment is not all bad though. They keep their citizens well stocked in good universitys, hospitals, schools and enjoy a very low violent crime rate. The royal family will pretty much give you a car or a few grand if you ask nicley for it. The culture can also be very upfront and friendly for the most part. It is not uncommon to see woman on the street asking for money to buy gold and getting it. Granted they do abuse human rights but most nations do, and at least they follow a fairly decent doctrine for the most part. It helps if your a devout muslim and male though. I think the reason that Saudi terrorists have such a problem with the United States is because they take religion very seriously, the city shuts down five times a day for prayer..shops close and tv shows are interrupted, and large amounts of United States troops whose goverment directly supports Israel on their land makes people a bit angry.
For example, if Hawaii was occupied and had been at war with China for some time, how would you feel if there were large amounts of Chinese troops in your city near the very things you hold most dear?
I am not in anyway sympathizing with terrorists nor advocating their views, but I really belive this to be the reason behind it.

As far as Israel, just a few years ago everything was looking up. The economy in Palestine was going up and the country was doing well. I think what people in the United States are not exposed to is the fact that Israelis enjoy a modern western standard of living while natives suffer in refugee camps since the 50's that to this day do not have sewage and plumbing in buildings nor electricity. And what I still cant comprehend is how the Israeli settlement issue with settlements being illegal under UN and international, can be such and underlying issue that is not being addressed at all in regards to all this bitching moaning and whining from the Bush administration about Iraq being in violation of UN resolution 1441. I took a look at Jenin via a Time photo essay (really cool website time has for photo essays ) and the destruction was so massive. It looked like ground zero in Manhattan but it was peoples homes and lives in rubble for as far as you can see in the photograph.

[.:armr:.]

thank you ana for the help with my question and *** for another point of view on it

id have to agree with *** on this one...i mean you gotta take the good with the bad

thats why im not so anti US

my kids will grow up with full bellies and a school to goto

our country is fucked socially but hey...nelly might get hit by a stray bomb who knows

and the most powerful country is obviously gonna be corrupt

[boxcarwilly]

Originally posted by ********

As far as Israel, just a few years ago everything was looking up. The economy in Palestine was going up and the country was doing well. I think what people in the United States are not exposed to is the fact that Israelis enjoy a modern western standard of living while natives suffer in refugee camps since the 50's that to this day do not have sewage and plumbing in buildings nor electricity. And what I still cant comprehend is how the Israeli settlement issue with settlements being illegal under UN and international, can be such and underlying issue that is not being addressed at all in regards to all this bitching moaning and whining from the Bush administration about Iraq being in violation of UN resolution 1441. I took a look at Jenin via a Time photo essay (really cool website time has for photo essays ) and the destruction was so massive. It looked like ground zero in Manhattan but it was peoples homes and lives in rubble for as far as you can see in the photograph.

at first read i was about to start screaming, thinking that someone who is seemingly educated could agree in any part to the occupation of Palestine, maybe it was due to the fact that i read things were looking up for Israel. first off things ALWAYS look up for israel, they are worldwide supported thiefs. i am NOT anti semitic at all, i have taken a strong opposition to modern Judaic belief systems that state something to the tune of if it is holy than we own it...
"private property is stolen land"
i think a majority of this country is kept in the dark about the plight of the Palestinians, while the demise of israelite life seems to be headline news, i think for all the respect i give cnn as being one of the few news channels that is less objective goes right down the porcelain god with the Palestine story. JEWS OWN CNN, not only that but jews own alot. (and they love sex Jewish women have sex more than any other *this is saracasm fueling the antisemite cause*)
sometimes i think what if i am just rooting for the losers because they are the underdog but then when it comes to logic i think a people unarmed and destabilized unifying and strapping c4 to a goat to blow up a bus because the overseer is afraid and will not allow them to arm themselves because passion is a good winner of wars, i think then i realize the domineering traits of global imperialism and that takes hold of me. i become entranced i rock a keffiyeh i dont hang out with the hassidics anymore and i fully suppot the liberation of Palestine plus reparations.

a little footnote on that rant, if you are Palestinian and you go to apply for a home loan at a bank you are waitlisted for 7 years until the Israeli merchant will "review" your loan application, now as an Israeli you can fill in the same info and you will with 100% bank funding be granted a loan with an interest rate that a fucking monkey could pay back. the Israeli govt (overseers) will grant you a stipend and provide you with supplies to build a "family safety room" complete with gas masks and air filters whereas the Palestinian family is beat with curfews constant ID checks and random assaults. hmmm usually the guilty act guilty don't they....

and i cant believe noone commented on the duct tape comment...

[rod stewart]

HEY SMART GUY LIBERAL TRENDY BACK STABBING IDIOT. IRAQ HAS TIES TO TERRIOISTS. HE WANTS TO KILL AMERICANS. ISREAL GETS BOMBED ALL DAY AND YOUR WORRIED ABOUT IRAQ.WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS? SHOULD THEY PUT UP WITH THE BOMBING? THE FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER! THEY BROUGHT ANTHRAX. YES IRAQ IS DOWN WITH ALL THIS AND WOULD KILL YOU IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE. BUSH SHOULD JUST SIT BACK,THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION,BUT WAR,NOT MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE IN TODAYS WARS.PLUS THESE ARE MAINLY VILLAGES WITH TERRIORISTS. WHAT IF YOUR MOTHER WAS IN THE TRADE CENTERS.DO YOU WANT OUR KIDS TO HAVE TO WORRY.DUMB FUCK! WAS YOUR MOM A HIPPIE AND YOU JUST WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT SO YOU PROTEST THIS WAR.SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Lil_5panky]

^^^ This guy is a tard.

You know where "terrorists" come from right? Theyre the children who grow up watching their families killed and their futures destroyed by repressive states like Israel and the U$, which have been terrorizing THEM for decades. Somehow I fail to see how doing more of the same is going to end that problem.

[imported_DISCO BRYSO]

the rally was bananas.

not since the WTO have I found thousands of protesters literally at my doorstep.

I hate the fact it's all about quantity over substance these days.

I support causes, but I really don't like public demonstrations.

[ArtvandaL]

Originally posted by Lil_5panky
^^^ This guy is a tard.

You know where "terrorists" come from right? Theyre the children who grow up watching their families killed and their futures destroyed by repressive states like Israel and the U$, which have been terrorizing THEM for decades. Somehow I fail to see how doing more of the same is going to end that problem.

[imported_El Mamerro]

Word. (http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml)

[ArtvandaL]

Originally posted by Lil_5panky
^^^ This guy is a tard.

You know where "terrorists" come from right? Theyre the children who grow up watching their families killed and their futures destroyed by repressive states like Israel and the U$, which have been terrorizing THEM for decades. Somehow I fail to see how doing more of the same is going to end that problem.

so nice i got to quote it twice

[grittylifer]

Originally posted by rod stewart
HEY SMART GUY LIBERAL TRENDY BACK STABBING IDIOT. IRAQ HAS TIES TO TERRIOISTS. HE WANTS TO KILL AMERICANS. ISREAL GETS BOMBED ALL DAY AND YOUR WORRIED ABOUT IRAQ.

if your texting at me, let me state again what i said, I dont really care about Iraq, I am a selfish insulated american infidel and can look past the massacre of probably tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in the name of protecting ourselfes. What affects me more directly is that the republican administrations currently in power has done far more affect the solid infrastructure of american society in a negative way. Somthing the terrorists could never be able to do single handedly and somthing that will victimize innocent americans for years to come, and on top of that you expect me to support the president in a one sided war against a country that has bucket ride hoopty missles that travel less than a thousand clicks...your trippen fool.

[/i]WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS? SHOULD THEY PUT UP WITH THE BOMBING? THE FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER! THEY BROUGHT ANTHRAX. YES IRAQ IS DOWN WITH ALL THIS AND WOULD KILL YOU IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE. BUSH SHOULD JUST SIT BACK,THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION,BUT WAR,NOT MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE IN TODAYS WARS.PLUS THESE ARE MAINLY VILLAGES WITH TERRIORISTS. WHAT IF YOUR MOTHER WAS IN THE TRADE CENTERS.DO YOU WANT OUR KIDS TO HAVE TO WORRY.DUMB FUCK! .[/QUOTE]

*edit, and about the anthrax, the anthrax we were attacked with-cluprit is still unknown- was military grade united states issue anthrax made by us.

I think that the Jews of Israel are held hostage to a onesided violent goverment. Recall that guy Yitzahk Rabin? I belive he had negotiated a entire peace settlement with the Palestine that was agreed to by Arafat and shortly before it was implemented, Rabin was assasinated by an Israeli rightwing radical and the goverment of Israel has been run by militant rightwingers ever since. My beef is solely with the Israeli goverment.

Bush does not give to fucks about you and if you think he does your playing yourself. The guy is an ex alchoholic coke head. The last person I would ever trust in such a posistion and you seem to over look that fact he never retained the majority vote in the last elelction. Many villages with terrorists, yeah there is. Theres also lots of blocks with homocide rates in California that will make your head spin a tthe unsolved rate of gun shot murders that Pres. Bush is not doing shit to resolve.

Not many innocent people die in todays wars? What about the 2.5 million Iraqis from the first gulf war added in to the cancer rate that has tripled from the use of depleted uranium. These facts were attained from Time magazine and Norman Shwarzkopf. If my mother or anyone I knew was in the trade center, I would be even more outraged that 20 terrorists with box cutters were able to kill thousands of americans. The fault lies with the united states goverment, these attacks were permitted to happen and federal regulations were not followed, in addition to the fact we had specific warnings the day prior and it ran in newspapers in afhganistan weeks prior.

If my mom was in the wtc, belive i would be raising holy hell and trying to the sue the federal goverment and all related agencys for a wrongfull death lawsuit. Your worried about your kids? Then maybe you should worry that school and social budgets are getting slashed so hard that the underfunded joke they were last year seems like club med.


[/i]WAS YOUR MOM A HIPPIE AND YOU JUST WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT SO YOU PROTEST THIS WAR.SHUT THE FUCK UP! [/QUOTE]

no my mother nor my father were hippies, they were in the military as were their fathers. My family has been in ww1 ww2 korea vietnam and the first gulf war. I spent the first ten years of my life living on a military base and civilian housing in saudi arabia.

and boxcarwilly,
i think you misread me, all i was saying pretty much in regards to israel is that two years ago there was no sudden wave of suicide bombings and things were starting to look up for palestine but since the uprising the better part of all goverment institutions have been destroyed.

[imported_DISCO BRYSO]

I enjoyed the link mamerro.. killed maybe 7 minutes. it's mostly on point, if a little fantastical.
beer,

[bigdork]

Originally posted by ********
if your texting at me, let me state again what i said, I dont really care about Iraq, I am a selfish insulated american infidel and can look past the massacre of probably tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in the name of protecting ourselfes. What affects me more directly is that the republican administrations currently in power has done far more affect the solid infrastructure of american society in a negative way. Somthing the terrorists could never be able to do single handedly and somthing that will victimize innocent americans for years to come, and on top of that you expect me to support the president in a one sided war against a country that has bucket ride hoopty missles that travel less than a thousand clicks...your trippen fool.

[/i]WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS? SHOULD THEY PUT UP WITH THE BOMBING? THE FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER! THEY BROUGHT ANTHRAX. YES IRAQ IS DOWN WITH ALL THIS AND WOULD KILL YOU IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE. BUSH SHOULD JUST SIT BACK,THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION,BUT WAR,NOT MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE IN TODAYS WARS.PLUS THESE ARE MAINLY VILLAGES WITH TERRIORISTS. WHAT IF YOUR MOTHER WAS IN THE TRADE CENTERS.DO YOU WANT OUR KIDS TO HAVE TO WORRY.DUMB FUCK! .

*edit, and about the anthrax, the anthrax we were attacked with-cluprit is still unknown- was military grade united states issue anthrax made by us.

I think that the Jews of Israel are held hostage to a onesided violent goverment. Recall that guy Yitzahk Rabin? I belive he had negotiated a entire peace settlement with the Palestine that was agreed to by Arafat and shortly before it was implemented, Rabin was assasinated by an Israeli rightwing radical and the goverment of Israel has been run by militant rightwingers ever since. My beef is solely with the Israeli goverment.

Bush does not give to fucks about you and if you think he does your playing yourself. The guy is an ex alchoholic coke head. The last person I would ever trust in such a posistion and you seem to over look that fact he never retained the majority vote in the last elelction. Many villages with terrorists, yeah there is. Theres also lots of blocks with homocide rates in California that will make your head spin a tthe unsolved rate of gun shot murders that Pres. Bush is not doing shit to resolve.

Not many innocent people die in todays wars? What about the 2.5 million Iraqis from the first gulf war added in to the cancer rate that has tripled from the use of depleted uranium. These facts were attained from Time magazine and Norman Shwarzkopf. If my mother or anyone I knew was in the trade center, I would be even more outraged that 20 terrorists with box cutters were able to kill thousands of americans. The fault lies with the united states goverment, these attacks were permitted to happen and federal regulations were not followed, in addition to the fact we had specific warnings the day prior and it ran in newspapers in afhganistan weeks prior.

If my mom was in the wtc, belive i would be raising holy hell and trying to the sue the federal goverment and all related agencys for a wrongfull death lawsuit. Your worried about your kids? Then maybe you should worry that school and social budgets are getting slashed so hard that the underfunded joke they were last year seems like club med.


[/i]WAS YOUR MOM A HIPPIE AND YOU JUST WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT SO YOU PROTEST THIS WAR.SHUT THE FUCK UP! [/QUOTE]

no my mother nor my father were hippies, they were in the military as were their fathers. My family has been in ww1 ww2 korea vietnam and the first gulf war. I spent the first ten years of my life living on a military base and civilian housing in saudi arabia.

and boxcarwilly,
i think you misread me, all i was saying pretty much in regards to israel is that two years ago there was no sudden wave of suicide bombings and things were starting to look up for palestine but since the uprising the better part of all goverment institutions have been destroyed. [/QUOTE]

DAMN!! beautifully stated, question for you, I run into close minded fox news clones all day and get into heated discussions about this war, but i never feel like i get my point across, and feel like i state the same cliched stuff over again, So what do you think is the best why to get through to somebody who has been brainwashed by our media and president, or is it possible? its definatley a fine line because i tend to find most of them (generalizing) are very angry and when you even say anything anti war they throw commi or trader or did you forget the wtc. im rambling, any advice?

[Rectum]

fuck you moaning hippies
havent you ever heard of the greater good or sacrifice?

Saddam is dictator. the names of everyone he didnt like in his party were read out and herded outside by his police and shot.

he had the karran written in his own blood and is having towers constructed to look like SCUD missiles.
He is obviously borderline insane, and it is widely acknowledged that he has highly destructive weapons and hates the western world.

He must be stopped, you fucking gutless fagets better recognise

[Lil_5panky]

Originally posted by Rectum
fuck you moaning hippies
havent you ever heard of the greater good or sacrifice?

Saddam is dictator. the names of everyone he didnt like in his party were read out and herded outside by his police and shot.

he had the karran written in his own blood and is having towers constructed to look like SCUD missiles.
He is obviously borderline insane, and it is widely acknowledged that he has highly destructive weapons and hates the western world.

He must be stopped, you fucking gutless fagets better recognise

damn, you ganxtah...:rolleyes:

Yup saddam is a dictator...glad you finally figured that out. Guess who put him in power and gave him those "highly destructive weapons" and supported him the whole time he was doing all those things to his people? Yup thats right the good old U$ of A...nigga i thought you knew...we dont have a problem with dictators until they try to retain control over their own oil and resources. THATS when they "must be stopped". :mad:

[dojafx]

you should recognize, before you catch a hot one son

[Dirty_habiT]

Really, this is a wack thread. I'm sorry, I know some people from this site that are "antiwar".... I am not anti war. I was considering entering the service for the sole fact that I may have the chance to take care of business for my country. I have other avenues that I must pursue, or else I would've done it. And I don't want to hear your shit about would have could have should have. Some reconciliation is in order here. I don't care how it gets done, but something needs to be done.... and anti war doesn't look like that's the LOGICAL solution.

[Rectum]

look dont include me in the US is the villain shit im not even american, yesi know america supplied him and killed his baby but now he hates USA and its allies( my country - australia) and is armed.

He must be stopped, its quite simple
i coulnt care less it your country hooked him up in the past, its done , and now you need to fix it

[Rectum]

Originally posted by Dirty_habiT
Really, this is a wack thread. I'm sorry, I know some people from this site that are "antiwar".... I am not anti war. I was considering entering the service for the sole fact that I may have the chance to take care of business for my country. I have other avenues that I must pursue, or else I would've done it. And I don't want to hear your shit about would have could have should have. Some reconciliation is in order here. I don't care how it gets done, but something needs to be done.... and anti war doesn't look like that's the LOGICAL solution.

now you are a man i would gladly fight beside, i hate these trendy hippy sensitve fools

[.:armr:.]

i think these trendy hippy fools would fight too

i believe in this war

therefore i would fight for it

if they believed in it...i bet they would too

they just think its a pointless war

the reason id fight is so these anti war people can still have the freedom to speak

well not really...its just a bonus

i do hate the fact that it is become the trendy thing to do is be anti war


oh man...yo...yoa...yo...gi...that commercial hit the spot...along with that huge piece of ham...i hope i dont offend vegetarians too...:D

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by Rectum
look dont include me in the US is the villain shit im not even american, yesi know america supplied him and killed his baby but now he hates USA and its allies( my country - australia) and is armed.

He must be stopped, its quite simple
i coulnt care less it your country hooked him up in the past, its done , and now you need to fix it

here here...people make mistakes or strategic decisions...hook him up so they can take care of a bigger enemy

[Lil_5panky]

Oh so it's the ANTI-war people who are the "trendy" ones now huh? Yeah, I guess all those fools hopping on the patriotic "i'll do whatever my govt says sir" bandwagon left and right are the REAL independent thinkers. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh and putting dictators in power wasnt a "mistake", the US has a long and continuous history of doing that to gain control over resources in other parts of the world...if you really believe that the goal of an unprovoked attack on Iraq is to "make people free" I'm sorry but you are obvioulsy an uneducated retard.

[grittylifer]

tell those fools that even Pat Buchanan opposes war in Iraq. As I texted, my family has been in wars 3 generations back. See how quick people even on 12oz are to rise to war? Well peep this fools. North Korea is a broke ass ho of a country WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT CAN STRIKE US. Please belive that mother fucker would not hesitate to sell one or more to mother fuckers in al quida or whoever else gots the bread for one.
My father served in the military through 2 wars and seventeen years. 12 were in the middle east. My father after spending 12 years representing american military in the middle east is of the opinion that war with Iraq is the absolute worst case scenerio.
If all you fools are frightened now, take in to account that AT MOST YOU HAVE A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND ISLAMIC TERRORISTS THAT WANT TO KILL YOU FOR BEING AN AMERICAN. There is one billion moslems in the world to answer to the world wide call of a jihad against america.

and what really stuns me, is that this war is not being propelled by esteemed military minds.....not at all and it never was. this war is soley a so called preventitive measure pushed by the current bush administration. even the motherfucking cia states iraq couldnt do shit to us. and whats worse, is the CONGRESS GAVE PUSH THE POWER TO SINGLEHANDEDLY DECLARE WAR BY HIMSELF...CAN YOU BELIVE THAT SHIT???????

so basically, if you support the war than go to your local recruiter and enlist so you can train to be on the front lines. if not, then discuss why you dont somewhere with somebody.

recall that we got bitch slapped by less than twenty....thats the big TWO ZERO....TERRORISTS.

that aint shit fool. george bush has done more damage to your countrys social programs than the terrorists have to our society.

lives will be remembered and buildings will rise again. a generation of starving undereducated poverty stricken americans will have after affects that our children will have to resolve.

and im the fuck outta here......they found a truck bomb in my city today.

Originally posted by bigdork


DAMN!! beautifully stated, question for you, I run into close minded fox news clones all day and get into heated discussions about this war, but i never feel like i get my point across, and feel like i state the same cliched stuff over again, So what do you think is the best why to get through to somebody who has been brainwashed by our media and president, or is it possible? its definatley a fine line because i tend to find most of them (generalizing) are very angry and when you even say anything anti war they throw commi or trader or did you forget the wtc. im rambling, any advice? [/QUOTE]

[BROWNer]

this thread is so convoluted with falsities, assumptions and speculations its puke time for browndink.

[killtheradio]

i personly am aginst war but it seems thats goin to be the end result of all this... i cant do a thing about it nither can u so fuck it, fuck bush and fuck life......

[grittylifer]

huh...guess the situation is straight blowin up yo.......

get it.....i said blowing up.....hahhahaah.

Originally posted by ********
They found a truck bomb in my city.

[TEARZ]

HI, I'M MARIANO RIVERA....
[img]http://www.cnnsi.com/baseball/mlb/2001/worldseries/news/2001/11/04/cl_G7/t1_rivera_ap.jpg'>
and it's time to SHUT THIS SHIT DOWN!!!

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by Lil_5panky
Oh so it's the ANTI-war people who are the "trendy" ones now huh? Yeah, I guess all those fools hopping on the patriotic "i'll do whatever my govt says sir" bandwagon left and right are the REAL independent thinkers. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh and putting dictators in power wasnt a "mistake", the US has a long and continuous history of doing that to gain control over resources in other parts of the world...if you really believe that the goal of an unprovoked attack on Iraq is to "make people free" I'm sorry but you are obvioulsy an uneducated retard.

when i was lil...i was such a leftist...

then i matured

i came to the realization

that the us is fucked

but do i care

no

and yes left is trendy

its fucking obvious

is that a bad thing

not at all

but look at how people view the right

all dumb red neck white power people who hate every1 else racist pigs

and yes...thats the trendy thing to do...be an asshole

grow up and grasp the real world...our government sucks...i hate it...but my family and friends are americans...and if "freedom" is just a propaganda term to get people like me to be goons and get blown up...more power to them

if the enemy is wiped out...there is no threat

stop thinking left is some underground idea...look at all the democrats...i live in boston...ALL LIBERALS...who are all rich white people...whatever...i bet the twist in joe millionaire is that girl has a 7 inch cock

[Lil_5panky]

Democrats do not equal "leftists"...they're not even necessarily liberals.

[grittylifer]

the democrats in congress lost every shred of credibility when they voted to give george w. bush the sole discretion of issuing the order the launch a war agaisnt iraq.

[.:armr:.]

i take it back


hey ***...sorry to bug for facts again...but when did that whole thing happen? i didnt even know until a few weeks ago...i just figured that bush just liked to talk a lot...not that his words actually meant that he could goto war

[Lil_5panky]

Originally posted by .:armr:. but look at how people view the right

all dumb red neck white power people who hate every1 else racist pigs
not far off the mark, as your next quotes prove...


grow up and grasp the real world...our government sucks...i hate it...but my family and friends are americans...and if "freedom" is just a propaganda term to get people like me to be goons and get blown up...more power to them
if the enemy is wiped out...there is no threat

Yeah, genocide against anyone who your oil-mad govt decides is the "enemy" is the solution...and you think this makes you MATURE???

[.:armr:.]

would you rather be at risk...or others

LIFE ISNT FAIR

thats the mature lesson to learn

people die...why? because shit happens

DEAL WITH IT

[grittylifer]

sometime in 02 i think. Its true though. I just had it reconfirmed while watching cnn.



Originally posted by .:armr:.
i take it back


hey ***...sorry to bug for facts again...but when did that whole thing happen? i didnt even know until a few weeks ago...i just figured that bush just liked to talk a lot...not that his words actually meant that he could goto war

[Lil_5panky]

Theres a difference between understanding that "shit happens" and saying "I support this shit happening, even though it doesnt have to"...

Besides, like I said before...how is creating even MORE hatred towards americans supposed to make me safer?

[.:armr:.]

thanks :)

wow...their almost as dumb as me

look...i ramble...arguing a pretty one sided bully war...

and all the obviously educated and politically active people are against it

but hey...i try:D

[grittylifer]

see this difference is....the United States has suffered Pearl Harbor, Tim McVeigh and 9/11. Not to shabby for 50 years.

The middle east has been in violent wars far more throughout history than the United States then you got the Arab Israeli wars that started in the 60's. The Lebanese civil war. The Iran Iraq war. The Afghani war. The Kashmere India war and the Gulf War.

Belive these people can be just as hell bent on revenge as the United States with less to lose.

"people with nothing to lose fight the hardest"-Living Legends.

The people we will fight against in Iraq are not coming home to GI bill educations and health plans, wives kids and suvs..nahhh...they will be fighting a war against people invading them that have all that. And if you think in anyway thats gonna increase our saftey and not fuel millions that will have been permananantly scarred, if not allready, to want to kill us. then your tripping.

life under a cruel dictator is better than life in a hellish warzone.

if you dont want to be attacked, than maybe pushing an agenda that looks to resolve conflicts and does not advocate premptive bloody wars will actually increase your safety.

im not stupid man. My lady told me today that a random truck stop revealed a bomb. if that bomb traveled 15 miles down the freeway and detonated my life would be irreversably changed. It would completely disrupt my life as i know it indefinitley. The attacks that american civilians are at risk for are so huge that realisticlly there is no way to protect our selfes. I dont wish this on anyone as i would never want to do it to any innocent in the name of protecting myself. So with out iraq attacking us, with out the neighbors of iraq pressing for us to invade, for your own and my saftey as well....nonviolence is the way to go.

people generally dont get shot for not making threats and not pointing guns.

Originally posted by .:armr:.
would you rather be at risk...or others

LIFE ISNT FAIR

thats the mature lesson to learn

people die...why? because shit happens

DEAL WITH IT

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by Lil_5panky
Theres a difference between understanding that "shit happens" and saying "I support this shit happening, even though it doesnt have to"...

Besides, like I said before...how is creating even MORE hatred towards americans supposed to make me safer?


fear my good friend

that makes you safer

they made me have fear of them

now its our turn

tada

[.:armr:.]

but ***, do you think these people would be a lot happier with a reformed government?

its doesnt have to be a democrazy...i feel a million people ARENT smarter than one (good nofx song)...but hey...theres a chance it will be better

as far as ive seen (which isnt much) but the afghani's seem a lil but happier

we really dont know what the majority of iraqi's think

we see anti war signs

but who knows

maybe theres guns behind the camera

"keep those hands high"

[.:armr:.]

Originally posted by ********


im not stupid man. My lady told me today that a random truck stop revealed a bomb. if that bomb traveled 15 miles down the freeway and detonated my life would be irreversably changed. It would completely disrupt my life as i know it indefinitley. The attacks that american civilians are at risk for are so huge that realisticlly there is no way to protect our selfes. I dont wish this on anyone as i would never want to do it to any innocent in the name of protecting myself. So with out iraq attacking us, with out the neighbors of iraq pressing for us to invade, for your own and my saftey as well....nonviolence is the way to go.

people generally dont get shot for not making threats and not pointing guns.

:( that is what i fear...

but that is what i feel this war will stop...fire with fire:confused: ...maybe

[grittylifer]

and not to rant or disrespect anyone who supports the military.
but my initial concern goes to the hundred thousand plus gi's that are on the front lines of this pointless conflict.
it is them i am most concerned about.
i am antiwar because i am anti americans dieing at the hand of an ignorant non democratically elected president who has a personal score to settle.
when this war begins and when they try to take baghdad..the body count will rise to the thousands. thousands upon thousands of innocent americans lost and thousands upon thousands of familys suffering from the loss to make sure that they couldnt attack us.

If the risk for loss has allready been accepted, why not wait until the risk is more defined and pronounced until we take action? We have the world standard for intelligence and the world was bending over backwards to assist us in fighting terror. Were has that focus gone? Since alot of those countrys are opposed to our current plan of action....
leaving more cells active, more plans of attack made.....all while we are lining up american soldiers to fight a war that the world says we should nto start.

could it have somthing to do with a completely downward spiraling economy that does not leave a president with only two years left much solid ground to gain re-election on?

maybe........

[grittylifer]

Originally posted by ********

and what really stuns me, is that this war is not being propelled by esteemed military minds.....not at all and it never was. this war is soley a so called preventitive measure pushed by the current bush administration. even the motherfucking cia states iraq couldnt do shit to us. and whats worse, is the CONGRESS GAVE PUSH THE POWER TO SINGLEHANDEDLY DECLARE WAR BY HIMSELF...CAN YOU BELIVE THAT SHIT???????

[/B][/QUOTE]

[.:armr:.]

*** that has to be the most convincing point

i have friends in the military

but the funny thing is...they want this war

they really dont know any better...but they joined because they wanted to

there is no draft

and if there was...we obviously dont chase after the dodgers

look at our past 2 presidents

BUT

look at the gulf war...the us casualities were very low...and many from friendly fire

if/when we take major cities...most civilians wouldve already been evacuated...ive heard talk about ground forces being used for these erbanaktions...but apaches will probably blow the hell out of it long before they get sent in

lets just hope theres no civilian walls...then were the ones getting fucked in the ass...and because of slimballs like him...using human shields...this is why i support it

[.:armr:.]

but hey...***...europe...all you anti war people who werent complete dicks...thanks for giving me a diff view...and challenging my points...very helpful to put my thoughts together...ive been beating a dead horse by going on about it...and being a minority on this board has made it that much worse...and being so mis informed haha...shitty cnn...thanks for posting those pure news sites too...but im done trying to get attention haha

PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST lol

[SIVIK]

We deffinatly getting some strong opinons up here.

[BROWNer]

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020...0902&s=vest&c=1 (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020902&s=vest&c=1)

[grittylifer]

and i guess is what it really comes down to........

is what the fuck is up with george bush??


sorry...i hadda lotta mountain dew today.

man....
when your bitch ass dodges the draft,

when your father is the vice president of the man who started the drug war and your abusing alchohol and cocaine,

when your vice president is buying oil off the man your father started a war against,

your administration overlooks warning of brutal attacks.....

and when your giving tax cuts to the rich after being in what appears to be a rigged election you spent flying around in a corporate jet (enrons) only to have that corp. defraud tax payer out of millions in unpaid income taxes not to mention ripping off all your employess.......

what american in their right mind would give this man the power to start a war???????????????????


i really just dont get it.

[grittylifer]

Originally posted by BROWNer
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020...0902&s=vest&c=1 (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020902&s=vest&c=1)

this is the reason people in the middle east want to kill americans.

[grittylifer]

article | Posted February 13, 2003

Letter From Iraq
by Jeremy Scahill

Baghdad

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raq has become one bizarre series of contradictions. Construction of what the government boasts will be one of the world's largest mosques continues in Baghdad, as does work on a new presidential palace, described by one official as being "like our version of the White House." On Abu Nuwas Street, workers are putting the finishing touches on the base for a new sculpture by the much-revered Iraqi artist Mohammed Ghani. The work: a great flying carpet, inspired by one of the tales of Thousand and One Nights. In fact, it's difficult to go anywhere in central Baghdad without seeing workers building or repairing something.

But in homes throughout the country, there is a different sort of labor under way, and it is being carried out with much greater urgency. Families are digging wells for water and buying up canned goods, cooking gas and heating oil. Wealthier families are buying generators. Some Iraqis say they will leave the city and head for family farms or homes in more rural areas. Others say they will not leave, some of them fearing looting in the event of internal strife. Among ordinary Iraqis, the enthusiastic rhetoric of defending the country against a US invasion has now been replaced by the stark realization that the eleventh hour has arrived.

On the surface, the daily routine persists. The streets remain congested with cars in a country where twenty-five gallons of gas costs little more than $2. The markets are crowded. Old men slam dominoes on tables as they puff nargila pipes. Children have just finished their midterm recess and are returning to school; their parents go to work. But almost no one harbors illusions. "All of us are scared because we tasted it before," said Aqbal Fartus, a primary school teacher in the southern port city of Basra. Fartus lives in the heart of the so-called no-fly zones, where US and British warplanes--with no United Nations mandate--have regularly bombed Iraq since 1998. On the morning of January 25, 1999, her oldest son, 6-year-old Heider, was killed by a US missile as he played in front of his home. His brother, Mustafa, lost two fingers in the attack and lives with shrapnel in his back. Four years after Heider's death, Fartus learned that she was once again pregnant. "We want this baby to improve our situation," she said--but she lost her baby two days after the interview. "It's hard," she said. "It's very, very, very hard because you can't do much other than wait for the bombs to fall on our city."

Meanwhile, the UN is already preparing for its role during the war and in the administration of a post-Saddam Iraq, as made clear in internal documents obtained by The Nation. One document says that "planning figures" for war foresee up to 800,000 Iraqis crossing the border into neighboring countries to seek asylum, with 500,000 asylum seekers stranded at borders inside Iraq. The greatest number, according to the report, would seek to enter Iran. Another document indicates that the UN is anticipating what it calls a "medium impact" scenario: "The military campaign encounters significant resistance, but ends after a more protracted period of two to three months. As a result of a large-scale ground offensive supported by aerial bombardments, there would be considerable destruction of critical infrastructure and sizable internal and external population movements." The report says there is a "major risk" of civil unrest in areas around Iraq that is "likely to result in high levels of casualties." In what could be a telling indication of the kind of timeline US-led forces are working on, the UN predicts it will be able to regain access to southern Iraq approximately thirty days after the start of the conflict but does not foresee reaching Baghdad until three or more months after the war begins.

A Western humanitarian official says that many UN workers have already begun quietly leaving the country in anticipation of massive attacks, although officially they are taking "vacations." By the end of February, some UN agencies will be operating with only skeletal staffs. The quiet departure, says the source, is intended to avoid creating panic and the impression that war is imminent. The UN has four "phases" describing its security status in the country. Officially, it remains at Phase I, the lowest status, but "they all know what is coming," said the official, who asked not to be identified. "It's just not official policy yet." Several foreign embassies have already withdrawn their personnel or say they will do so soon.

Perhaps the most revealing UN document is a draft report of the UN's Executive Committee on Peace and Security, dated January 7, 2003, which discusses potential scenarios involving UN assistance to a successor government in Iraq. "In the short term, the external force waging the war will be in command and may administer the country or impose a certain authority," the document says. "Gradually, after four to eight months, the UN may be given more room for limited responsibility in terms of governance and the establishment of security and justice." It goes on to say, "It is unlikely that the UN will play a major role similar to that in Eastern Slavonia [the region of Croatia that borders Serbia] or East Timor. The UN role is likely to be determined according to the request of either the new authority or the foreign forces that will provoke a regime change through war." In other words, the UN will do only what the United States tells it to do, or allows it to do.

[grittylifer]

Letter From Iraq
(page 2 of 2)


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he document discusses establishing a "transitional administration," saying UN agencies "might be asked to assist in nation and institution building." It envisions two major components of operations: "1) the first 100 days, and 2) Road Map for Reform (2 to 3 years of operations)." The document asserts that "even under a new type of government, it is likely that the country may slip back into its old ways" and that the UN "would also expect" that the new regime would make "political overtures to important neighbors and major powers at the same time as disciplinary measures against their agents in Iraq--the arrest and execution of Israeli, Iranian and US/UK agents." It continues, "In this mentality it would be quite consistent, indeed positively advisable, to allow the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights into Iraq to denounce the excesses of the previous regime while reminding all concerned of the where the [sic] new 'red lines' were placed."

The Iraqi government is well into war mode. Television is rife with videos of members of the Fedayou Saddam (Saddam Militia), marching in Hezbollah-type garb. Military parades are being staged for journalists. The Baath Party is giving weapons to anyone who signs up for the party, and gunshop owners report significant increases in purchases. While the official line is that there will be fierce resistance across Iraq, privately officials seem resigned to the idea that the ground battle against a US-led invading force will ultimately be fought in Baghdad. While the government may quite possibly consolidate its resistance in the capital and offer fierce resistance, it is unlikely it could do so elsewhere in the country.

The tension and fears in Basra and elsewhere in the south, with its overwhelming Shiite population, are clearer than in Baghdad. Already the region suffers like no other in Iraq. People are caught between government repression and a deadly US-led policy of sanctions and regular bombing. The area will be a major focal point of any war, as it borders Kuwait, a certain entry point for invading US forces. "We have learned a great lesson since the Gulf War," said a Basra resident who asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisal. "America told us to rise up and then watched the people get massacred in the streets. You can't imagine what happened here. This time, no one will leave their homes."

The hatred of the government in the south is clear, and there is little question that a change of government would be welcomed. But "we don't want the change to come through America's bombs," said another individual who requested anonymity. "Some people see it as enduring bombing, hoping to survive and then starting over without him [Saddam]. But most of us want a peaceful change brought about from within. We don't want anymore misery here."

There are rumors that Iraqi generals in the south are waiting for the right moment to rise up; the ordinary army there is staffed largely by unenthusiastic, poor, hungry soldiers who residents say will not defend the regime. But the government also has loyalists in the area, including an extensive network of secret police, as well as Baath Party and other militias. "All of them will fight for the regime, but the rest of us will stay in our homes and watch and wait," said a southern Shiite.

Hundreds of Iraqi imams, including those at the holy shrines at Najaf and Karbala, have signed on to a fatwa (a religious decree) calling for jihad against any invading forces. "This is not a war against Iraq, this is a war against Islam," says Abdul Rihad, the imam at the biggest Shiite mosque in Basra. He adds, "We don't like to fight. But if war is imposed on the Iraqi people, they should fight for their land, their blood, their family. But we do not want that, because this war will be a loser for both sides." Even those Iraqis in the south who said they would welcome a change of government also said they would fight US forces if they attempted to occupy their area. And perhaps that is what Saddam Hussein is banking on.

As the UN and the Iraqi populations wait, it is worth considering that the most striking fact about the UN documents is their acknowledgment that a new regime in Baghdad brought about by war would probably be much like the old one, sans Saddam Hussein. Such a conclusion reinforces the sense that there has thus far been no satisfactory answer to the question that millions of people around the world have been asking through protest for months: Why?

[grittylifer]

"All of us have heard this term 'preventive war' since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that is about the first time I heard it. In this day and time...I don't believe there is such a thing; and, frankly, I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."
--President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953,
upon being presented with plans to wage
preventive war to disarm Stalin's Soviet Union

"Our position is that whatever grievances a nation may have, however objectionable it finds the status quo, aggressive warfare is an illegal means for settling those grievances or for altering those conditions."
--Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson,
the American prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials,
in his opening statement to the tribunal

[BROWNer]

[img]http://seemesmile.com/photos4/2699352a.jpg'>

[Spade]

Originally posted by Europe
[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.south.africa.johann.jpg'>
Johannesburg, South Africa

[img]http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.world.peace.protest/gallery.germany.berlin.ap.jpg'>
350.000 protesters at the Brandenburger Tor in Berlin, Germany

Does that say " Bush is a Butcher"??????????????????

"Hey mom, can you find my chemical warheads? I seem to have misplaced them."
" Yes dear, there at the bottom of the stairs........"

[Ferris Bueller]

What has been getting me is that many of the world news networks don't even show footage of the huge demonstrations and protests taking place in Europe. It's like they don't want us (being the majority of the US population) to see what other countries' people think of the possibility of war. Also, on the news, do you ever see brief interviews of U.S. citizens and their take on the possibility of war? I sure haven't. It's always some U.S. diplomat saying "WAR WAR WAR"...just pisses me off. I thought this was a people's government...but all I see are big wigs running the show.

If America took action, which we will, I feel it would be better if the military worked to take Saddam out of power. As someone said, war should be the last option...

It makes me very uneasy that we have developed tensions with two different countries as well....it's like all hell broke loose within the administration as soon as the nuclear power plants were started back up so N.K. could provide power for it's people. This Big Brother thing is bullshit.

[ArtvandaL]

FREE PALESTINE!!!
NO WAR ON IRAQ!!
FUCK ISRAEL!!!

what ever happened to that guy called "FUCK ISRAEL?"

he was funny

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by .:armr:.
when i was lil...i was such a leftist...

then i matured

i came to the realization

that the us is fucked

but do i care

no



aww, a self righteous haiku. how mature.


I always find that when

I double space my

points I tend

to look

dumb.

[grittylifer]

and i hope every one realizes that the weapons of mass destruction we are about to ignite a war over were provided to Iraq by the US under the reagan BUSH administration. Further more, not one peep was heard when Saddam gassed his own civilians in 1988. We didnt say shit. We didnt do shit except give him more funding and more weapons.
To let George W. Bush wage this war in the name of protecting america is the biggest travesty to american history and ideals that americans of every aspect will have to shoulder for the rest of time.

The civilian body count from the first gulf war was around 2 million. One third of the body count of the jewish holocaust in a short 8 week war.

[grittylifer]

US Senator Robert Byrd
Senate Floor Speech

We Stand Passively Mute

Wednesday 12 February 2003

To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world.

This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11.

Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.

This Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.

In that scant two years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits as far as the eye can see. This Administration's domestic policy has put many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly. This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our long and porous borders.

In foreign policy, this Administration has failed to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time, International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO. This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats, labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have consequences for years to come.

Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil, denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant - these types of crude insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not just sign letters cheering us on.

The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land.

Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace?

And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?

Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?

Could a disruption of the world's oil supply lead to a world-wide recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more lucrative practice for nations which need the income?

In only the space of two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.

One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is nearly impossible to exact retribution.

But to turn one's frustration and anger into the kind of extremely destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administration charged with the awesome power and responsibility of guiding the destiny of the greatest superpower on the planet. Frankly many of the pronouncements made by this Administration are outrageous. There is no other word.

Yet this chamber is hauntingly silent. On what is possibly the eve of horrific infliction of death and destruction on the population of the nation of Iraq -- a population, I might add, of which over 50% is under age 15 -- this chamber is silent. On what is possibly only days before we send thousands of our own citizens to face unimagined horrors of chemical and biological warfare -- this chamber is silent. On the eve of what could possibly be a vicious terrorist attack in retaliation for our attack on Iraq, it is business as usual in the United States Senate.

We are truly "sleepwalking through history." In my heart of hearts I pray that this great nation and its good and trusting citizens are not in for a rudest of awakenings.

To engage in war is always to pick a wild card. And war must always be a last resort, not a first choice. I truly must question the judgment of any President who can say that a massive unprovoked military attack on a nation which is over 50% children is "in the highest moral traditions of our country". This war is not necessary at this time. Pressure appears to be having a good result in Iraq. Our mistake was to put ourselves in a corner so quickly. Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time.