ANTI WAR CHUMPS [Archive] - THE WRITERS FORUM

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by ModelCitizen
Your signature is almost as wack as your apparent level of exposure.

ALMOST.

The reality of war isn't a fucking joke. Neither are the repurcussions. No matter how many little snippets of half-assed, distant information people absorb they'll never have a fucking clue what it's like to watch their friends have their heads blown off of their bodies in front of them for an abstract, undefined purpose that couldn't return the favor.

Everyone is a victim of some form of bullshit, including you, including me, and including the people kicking that maniac, murdering motherfucker's statue, caught by a piece of video equipment and logged into the never-ending annuls of human underachievement. We should really pat ourselves on the back for being such pathetic, "realistic", blind, vindictive versions of our own unmet potential. The great big argument has gotten way too damn old. And we might always be as compassionate as as we are brutal, but overall our short-sighted, greedy laziness will be the mark of what weak little piss-ants we once were, and pragmatism stomps around in the here and now as the ultimate fucking cop-out embraced by so-called intellectualls, the docile, the infinitely arrogant.

--Drunk and pissed, sincerely yours,
Futility

why dont you go take a class or something since you obviously need to gratify yourself. you think your pretty smart dont you? i bet if you had any balls in the real world you would constantly get your ass kicked.

also at this point its not even an issue if there are iraqis that feel "liberated". maybe all those people im seeing on tv dancing and kicking statues and crying in former death camps are faking it or have guns to their backs. i doubt it. not like im pro-war, i just accepted that maybe it wasnt so cut and dry, and now alot of people who were so against anything like this are having to slow their roll. because there is a bright side. now for all you kids who still just need anything to go on to rebel against authority, THE REAL QUESTION IS, WILL WE REBUILD IRAQ AND MAKE IT WORK?

SleepAnDream

04-10-2003, 02:52 PM

support our troops either way. war or no way, there are thousands of marines and soldiers over there right now, giving all of us, regardless of what you think of war, the opportunity to live free and with that opinion you hold....

A Parent of a Marine in the 1st Battalion.

We got a letter from Josh today, if you could call it that, written 3/9.
They are hearing about the anti-war protests and he was upset. That' s all the letter talked about. He enclosed a poem he and his buddies wrote. He wants us
to get it out, let people see how they feel. Any ideas?

"Wish You Were Here"
For all the free people that still protest.
You're welcome. We protect you and you are protected by the best.
Your voice is strong and loud,
but who will fight for you? No one standing in your crowd.
We are your fathers, brothers, and sons,
wearing the boots and carrying guns.
We are the ones that leave all we own,
to make sure your future is carved in stone.
We are the ones who fight and die,
We might not be able to save the world, Well, at least we try.
We walked the paths to where we are at
and we want no choice other than that.
so when you rally your group to complain,
take a look in the back of your brain.
In order for that flag you love to fly
wars must be fought and young men must die.
We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs,
and pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well,
be thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles and all the boys from 3rd Battalion 2nd Marines, Kuwait

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 03:01 PM

if everybody in this country was one of these anti-war protesters we would all be starving and killing each other to eat like other places on earth that lacked solid government. you people are such assholes. i know your intentions were good, but look where they got you. nowhere, your the same people that didnt respect your parents, the people who watch your friends get beatdown and stand there like a pussy, the same two faced friend that i dont want around. fuck you.

mental invalid

04-10-2003, 03:03 PM

whatever makes them sleep easier.....poets they aint

rationalization is meant to comfort........

this was not defensive, this was offensive....

mental invalid

04-10-2003, 03:07 PM

got you. nowhere, your the same people that didnt respect your parents, the people who watch your friends get beatdown and stand there like a pussy, the same two faced friend that i dont want around. fuck you.

no really fuck you and thanks for the sweeping generalization.....youre a fucking moron....glad someone just died for you......you shoulda been the one over there getting killed

i hope to one day to serve you an asskicking just to prove ya wrong about people against this war.....

Poop Man Bob

04-10-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by mental invalid
heh rectum do us all a favor and cork your oral diarreha...no one cares what a highschool drop out thinks about foreign affairs....

choke on a freedom fry......

ohsnap.

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 03:12 PM

im not saying their wrong. if they think theyre right than their right. i think theyre wrong, thats just my opinion. my personal experience has also been that the kids ive met through graf that were anti america etc. were total pussies.traveling the world to write on walls and then bitching about theyre own back yard. literally the kind of kids who cant stick up for themselves or their boys. so i had to do it. im not saying i could fuck you up, but when the shit goes down my instinct is to help, not tell my boy he deserved it.

beans

04-10-2003, 05:03 PM

I agree that the regime needed to be brought down. However America uses this as a front to legitimize the fact that they are going there to take all their natural and labor resources. They have done this in the past and they continue to do it. I don't think they want McDonald's and Gap sweat shops just as much as they don't want Saddam. Hundreds of years from now when the world becomes civilized and ruled by the rightous and self-concious people they will look back upon us and wonder how we lived with ourselves while we killed and looted our own brothers and sisters.

No more wars!

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 05:07 PM

that could happen or maybe someone like saddam will slip through the cracks and there wont be anyone left to look back in a hundred years.

Esai

04-10-2003, 07:26 PM

^^^
I would think Bush has done a much better job at turning a well respected(or at least feared) government into a rogue regime(which was illegally stolen) that has become the biggest threat to the rest of the logical world, including many millions of cognitive citizens in the US. Judging from the actions of our very powerful conservative elite, along with the mindnumbing ignorance of anglo america and the millions of uncle toms, I wouldnt give our planet another 100 years before either: all out armageddon, some kind of huge revolution, or full on slavery(which is actually a harsher word for global economy and NAFTA).I really hope the Iraquis will contro their vast natural resources and the wealth accrued from these rescoureces will be fairly and equally shared with its citizens. I severely doubt it(judging from US history), and I feel the Iraquis are being taken for a ride, and we're footing the bill.

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 07:35 PM

were definitely footing the bill, as usual. time will tell.

imported_Tesseract

04-10-2003, 07:54 PM

Roe on a killin spree...

choke on it kiddies

zodiac ying

04-10-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by razeagainst
Honestly, i'd like to see the entire nation-state system crumble...

honestly i wish you rolled through my world so i could see if you too would fit into the category of pussy bitch i mentioned earlier in this thread.

phism

04-10-2003, 08:36 PM

"You'll see the celebrations and we will be happy Saddam has gone," one of them said to me. "But we will then want to rid ourselves of the Americans and we will want to keep our oil and there will be resistance and then they will call us "terrorists".
-------------
"Nobody wants to see the Americans win. We're willing to suffer as long as it takes but not to see them occupy our country," said Nabil Suleiman, 40, a businessman.
-------------
"We're fed up, we're terrified of this war but we're willing to put up with all this rather than see the Americans in our country ruling us," said Mona Fathi, 34, an academic.
-------------
Iraqi worker Adnan said he felt compelled to go back to Iraq after six months in Jordan: "It's matter of national pride and dignity," he said.

"I can't bear to see my country occupied by foreign troops, I believe we can kick them out. They may have incredible weaponry but the will of God is stronger," he said angrily.

mental invalid

04-10-2003, 09:38 PM

they are killing me tess....slowly

fr8lover

04-10-2003, 09:45 PM

america is being so nearsighted with this war, i doubt most people have even begun to think "what next?" great we cut a swath through iraq and killed a bunch of people for "regime change." now the "fun part" is watching us slowly forget about it with another conflict we dont belong in (see afghanistan).

BROWNer

04-10-2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by freightlover
(see afghanistan).

look (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/04/10/afghanistan/index_np.html)

BROWNer

04-10-2003, 10:27 PM

Gulf War Syndrome, The Sequel
Steven Rosenfeld, _April 10, 2003

Soldiers now fighting in Iraq are being exposed to battlefield hazards that have been associated with the Gulf War Syndrome that afflicts a quarter-million veterans of the 1991 war, said a former Central Command Army officer in Operation Desert Storm. Part of the threat today includes greater exposure to battlefield byproducts of depleted uranium munitions used in combat, said the former officer and other Desert Storm veterans trained in battlefield health and safety.

Their concern comes as troops are engaged in the most intensive fighting of the Iraq War. Complicating efforts to understand any potential health impacts is the Pentagon's failure, acknowleged in House hearings on March 25, to follow a 1997 law requiring baseline medical screening of troops before and after deployment.

"People are sick over there already," said Dr. Doug Rokke, former director of the Army's depleted uranium (DU)project. "It's not just uranium. You've got all the complex organics and inorganics [compounds] that are released in those fires and detonations. And they're sucking this in.... You've got the whole toxic wasteland."

In 1991, Desert Storm Commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf asked Rokke to oversee the environmental clean up and medical care of soldiers injured in friendly fire incidents involving DU weapons. Rokke later wrote the DU safety rules adopted by the Army, but was relieved of subsequent duties after he criticized commanders for not following those rules and not treating exposed troops from NATO's war in Yugoslavia.

Rokke said today's troops have been fighting on land polluted with chemical, biological and radioactive weapon residue from the first Gulf War and its aftermath. In this setting, troops have been exposed not only to sandstorms, which degrade the lungs, but to oil fires and waste created by the use of uranium projectiles in tanks, aircraft, machine guns and missiles.

"That's why people started getting sick right away, when they started going in months ago with respiratory, diarrhea and rashes -- horrible skin conditions," Rokke said. "That's coming back on and they have been treating them at various medical facilities. And one of the doctors at one of the major Army medical facilities -- he and I talk almost every day -- and he is madder than hell."

DU, or Uranium-238, is a byproduct of making nuclear reactor fuel. It is denser and more penetrating than lead, burns as it flies, and breaks up and vaporizes on impact -- which makes it very deadly. Each round fired by a tank shoots one 10-pound uranium dart that, in addition to destroying targets, scatters into burning fragments and creates a cloud of uranium particles as small as one micron. Particles that small can enter lung tissue and remain embedded.

Efforts to contact Pentagon officials for comment at the Office of the Special Assistant for Gulf War Illnesses and officials at the Veterans Administration who deal with DU-related illness were not returned.

What Rokke and other outspoken Desert Storm veterans fear is today's troops are being exposed to many of the same battlefield conditions that they believe are responsible for Gulf War Syndrome. These illnesses have left 221,000 veterans on medical disability and another 51,000 seeking that status from the Veterans Administration as of May 2002.

"Yeah, I do fear that," said Denise Nichols, a retired Air Force Major and nurse, who served in Desert Storm and is now vice-chairman of the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition. "We're sitting here watching it happen again and wondering if the soldiers are going to be taken care of any better [than after the 1991 war]."

Nichols' lobbying sparked Congress to pass a 1997 law requiring the Pentagon to conduct a physical and take blood samples of all soldiers before and after deployment. In a House hearing on March 25 on that requirement, Public Law 105-85, Pentagon officials said the military had not conducted those baseline tests for Iraq War soldiers, saying they asked troops to fill out a questionnaire instead.

"Their actions not to fully implement PL 105-85 and go beyond the words of the law, show their lack of caring for the human beings that do the work and place their lives in jeopardy for this nation," Nichols said in testimony submitted to the Rep. Chris Shays (R-Conn.) the Government Reform-National Security Subcommittee chairman, who held the hearing and told military officials they were "not meeting" the letter or spirit of the law.

"I hope that when the soldiers return that the standard tactic of blaming PTSD [Post-Traumatic-Stress Disorder] or stress will never be allowed to block soldiers from getting fast answers to what is happening to their health," Nichols testified.

"If you don't look, you don't find," Rokke said, commenting on the Pentagon's failure to assess soldiers' health. "If you don't find, there is no correlation. If there's no correlation, there's no liability."

Both Rokke and Nichols says health problems associated with DU exposure are likely to be more widespread in the current war than in 1991. That's because the military relies more heavily on DU munitions today and there's more fighting in this war.

When Rokke sees images of soldiers and civilians driving past burning Iraqi trucks that have been destroyed by tank fire, or soldiers or civilians inspecting buildings destroyed by missiles, and these people are not wearing respirators, he says they all risk radiation poisoning, which can have lifelong consequences.

"He's going to be sick," Rokke said. "He's supposed to have full respiratory protection on. That's required by his Common Task [training manual]. And when he comes by and he's downwind, he supposed to have a radio-bio-assay. That's urine, feces and nasal swabs within 24 hours."

When asked why those protocols -- part of the DU rules he wrote for the Army -- apparently aren't being followed, Rokke said the military doesn't want to lose the use of DU weapons. He said as early as 1991 the military issued memos saying DU ammo could become "politically unacceptable and thus be deleted" if health and environmental impacts were emphasized. Outside the military, medical journals say the jury is still out on DU's potential health impacts. Although the government says it is safe, medical researchers say not enough is understood about DU's acute and long-term effects, wrote Brian Vastag in the April 2 edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Veterans disagree, however, saying the military has known about low-level radiation poisoning since the development of atomic weapons in the 1940s. They say the military will not disclose its DU test results and that it's almost impossible to do medical research while combat rages.

Meanwhile, in political circles, the White House has dismissed DU issues. On March 18, it issued "Apparatus of Lies," a report which, among other things, attacked claims that DU fallout from Operation Desert Storm has caused higher disease rates among Iraqi citizens. Those claims were part of "Saddam's disinformation and propaganda" campaign, the White House said.

www.tompaine.com (http://www.tompaine.com)

Catch22

04-10-2003, 11:27 PM

There have been some good points on both sides but my questions are, Do you think it would've been better if we didn't invade Iraq & Saddam was still in power? Should we have just ignored the whole situation? What would've been your alternative to war?

I'm not a big fan of George Bush
I think our gouvernment is shady at times
I'm not a big fan of war
but I didn't see a better/more effective solution & I believe it was the right decision.

phism

04-10-2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Catch22
There have been some good points on both sides but my questions are, Do you think it would've been better if we didn't invade Iraq & Saddam was still in power? Should we have just ignored the whole situation? What would've been your alternative to war?

I'm not a big fan of George Bush
I think our gouvernment is shady at times
I'm not a big fan of war
but I didn't see a better/more effective solution & I believe it was the right decision.

well, u.n. intervention is a much more peaceful way to do it... the u.n. can often pull off things without even going to war. the inspections were working, and iraq was complying... of course, as soon as they started complying, we changed our reasoning from WMD's to regime change. but in that case... if our reason for war is "saddam is a bad guy"... well, for one, that's kind of illegal. second, there are tons of countries with oppressive leaders, including our own, in many ways. there is no specific reason of that sort to kick hussein out. aside from self-serving reasons....

you ask about a more effective solution, but this wasn't really a solution to anything! the people are still starving, many more dead than would have been without the war, the sanctions are not lifted.

in fact, saddam hussein's government was already showing signs of weakness and implosion. one thing that would have allowed it to collapse is lifting the sanctions. this would keep the people from starving because they could make their own money via trade, rather than wait for the government to (not) give them any food or cash. money is power, and if the people were empowered, they wouldn't have to settle for saddam.

nay, this war had nothing to do with any of that.

it was all the PNAC.

Project for a New American Century - http://www.newamericancentury.org - read their statement of principles and its signatories.

they've been planning this war for a long time. the attack on afghanistan was planned out before september 11th (how'd we get all those soldiers there so quick?), paul wolfowitz wanted us to attack iraq on september 15th, 2001 - 4 days after 9/11, when no evidence could have possibly pointed to iraq.

we're going to attack Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia next. because they are enemies of Israel. that's why we're ignoring North Korea - they aren't involved with Israel, a.k.a. America Jr. (and you thought it was Canada).

if you want to know more about the PNAC, read this article: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EC20Ak07.html

also, one of the american corporations' incentives to enter this war (because we all know that the corporate world and the government are butt buddies) is the enforcement of trade in the U.S. Dollar. Saudi Arabia and OPEC agreed a long time ago to trade in the U.S. Dollar.... this is the real reason america is so prosperous. in the 60s we were about on the same level as other major world powers, maybe with a little bit more in natural resources... but now that we have middle eastern countries 'buying' our money to use in oil trade, as well as making oil easier to buy for the u.s., our economy skyrocketed..... we depend on the middle east and the rest of the world's value of the u.s. dollar. pushing up the value of the dollar greatly increases the value of our country's overall wealth.

now, with that in mind, know that Iraq was the first country to switch from using the dollar to using the Euro. at the time it was seen as a political move, you know, not wanting to use our money because we don't like each other. everybody thought the plan would flop, but! they actually profited from it. and right now, the Euro is beginning to out-compete the dollar. if other countries catch on, and the petro-euro becomes the preferred currency of the oil trade, the entire American economy will fail. dollar value will plummet, now that it no longer has a basis in actual physical gold, and american corporations will crumble. so no, it's not about oil, really.... but it is about the scrilla....

peace to kozyndan (http://www.kozyndan.com)

Smart

04-11-2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
Yea Saddam was a malicious dictator... what's your point?

you know, whatever about your opinions, you can believe whatever you want but now... fuck off, you lost all respect, trying to take my reply to a quote out of context and portray me as raving.

You can get fucked little boy, you and your idealitic fantasy world.

Rectum

04-11-2003, 01:58 AM

please refer to ANTI WAR CHUMPS VOL. 2 thread for more of my insight

esppecially you razeagainst you silly chump!

Rectum

04-11-2003, 02:04 AM

smart has got it on lockdown!!!!

Smart

04-11-2003, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
Hey, you did it to yourself, holmes

No, YOU did it to ME... YOU took the quote out of context. YOU misportrayed my words. You are a measly little pussy who is as unwilling to take responsability for your own blatant actions against me as you are unwilling to admit that you are sadly uninformed and generally ignorant in regards to world events and the intricacies of foreign policy.

S@T@N

04-11-2003, 03:34 AM

Smart with the harshness.

Poop Man Bob

04-11-2003, 03:52 AM

http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtar..._06.html#000433 (http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2003_04_06.html#000433)

And let's acknowledge up front that it was easier than a lot of people expected--including many military and intelligence analysts--and let's posit that that's a Good Thing. The shooting's not over yet, and even Rumsfeld says that declarations of victory are premature--but if we soon reach a point at which no more American soldiers have to die on Iraqi soil, and no more Iraqi children have to have their arms blown off, then I think we can all be grateful for that.

The devil's just going to be in the details. Can order be restored and maintained? Is democracy something which by definition can even be "imposed"? Does the United States have a long enough attention span to see this one through? (To that last, I suspect the answer is yes--if only because the oil's there--though what "seeing it through" means remains anybody's guess.)

In the meantime, congratulations. You've just adopted approximately 23 million Iraqis.

Krook

04-11-2003, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by mr_president
wars over, eat a vegan!

:lol:

fr8rokr

04-11-2003, 05:27 AM

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article2842.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm)

get educated

serum

04-11-2003, 05:57 AM

i'm all for sadaam getting a boot to the dome
i'm all for for the iraq people's liberation
i'm all for getting rid of chemical and biological weapons

however i'm not for the american government stating that they are going to iraq to free the people, because this is bullshit. don't even mention them because the only time they care about them is when the media's is broadcasting coverage of civilian casualties.

i'm not for the americans blaming starvation and lack of medical care on sadaam because thats mostly due to our sanctions.

i'm not for america pulling out of iraq and putting in a puppet regime, [see afghanistan, and even cambodia]

i'm not for bush taking iraq's oil and distributing it where he pleases.

i'm not for going above the UN. it's called bureaucracy, yes it's slow, and doesn't always weigh in your favor but if i wanted to plead my case that solient green is people in a court of law i'd have to prove it BEFORE i blew up their factory, not after the fact. shit we break our own rules to get what we want.

the only reason that we aren't going after n.korea is because they have nothing there for us if we beat them. we would foot the bill, lose american soldiers, take out kim jong ill and we'd be lucky to get some kimchee with our rice.

effyoo

04-11-2003, 06:39 AM

waiting...

NoamChomsky

04-11-2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
Smart... you should change your name to "DUMB"... check out this article, kid... maybe you'll learn something for once...

Smart runs shit around here,he's the new Beardo, please believe...

Smart

04-12-2003, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
Smart... you should change your name to "DUMB"

This is the most original thing you have ever said, seems like you even thought it up yourself.

MotherEffer

04-12-2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
You're worried about protesters? People are being bombed, man.... At least they're raising their voice and standing up for something they believe in... what have you done to make this shitty world a better place?

i haven't done shit to make this shitty world better. what have you done? went to a few protests, stood around yelling anti war and anti goverment slogans to other protesters? protests aeren't gonna changer bush'd mind. he's out for revenge, so nothing you or i say is gonna change his mind. personally i think tis war has nothing to do with oil. it's more of a personal vendetta than anything. what would you do if someone wanted to kill your pops? i would fuckin try to kill him, and i happen to be in charge of the strongest military in the world, shiiiiit homeboy is gonna die... that sux but that's life......

bodice_ripper

04-12-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
I had my doubts when we first started getting resistance down in southern Iraq, but watching people looting government warehouses of rice and dancing in the street really brought it home to me that we have done a good thing.

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING. George W. promised the Iraqi people democracy. LET'S SEE IT. I give them five years to achieve self-supportting, independent statehood, and ten years to achieve a Constitutional republic, with one-citizen-one-vote, universal suffrage (women too), free public SECULAR schools and an ARMED CITIZENRY THAT SUPPORTS THEIR GOVERNMENT.

I would think that after all these years, the Iraqis know that when a tank rolls down your street, you come out and fucking cheer for it - regardless of who's tank it is........................

I agree with the proof bit - let's see those mountains of WMDs they have hmmm.............................?

And lets see the US achieve Model Democracy Status, with a president who respects the Constitution, and one-man-one vote.............................

Smart

04-12-2003, 09:49 AM

I get the feeling from so many of you that... if this was WWII, and Hitler had been beaten by 1943, you would all boo and hiss because you didn't get to 'discover' the graves of the last 3,000,000,000 Jews...

bodice_ripper

04-12-2003, 10:03 AM

^^^^
that was weak, and you know it

Such a fuss was made over these weapons - to the point of fucking up the UN. These were the reason (allegedly) for going to war - not the wellfare of the Iraqis (the US is usually quite happy to ignore human rights abuses...)

SHOW ME THE WEAPONS!

Smart

04-12-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
^^^^
that was weak, and you know it

no, just because you think it, doesn't make it so... I've NEVER given a fuck about the WMD, not even for an instant. I do, however, believe that they will eventually be found. I also think that no matter what, when they are found, haters will claim it's a sham. So... whatever, the people are free, sorry that makes you so sour.

bodice_ripper

04-12-2003, 10:28 AM

Jesus Smmart, I come back for ten minutes and already you have your panties in a knot

i was just pointing out that you weren't basing you little analogy on anything - it was just HYPERBOLE

[img]http://www.healthstore.com/photos/053111.jpg'>

take two of these and call me in the morning. Relax them kacks, you crazy bint

Smart

04-12-2003, 11:14 AM

yeah, no, well... I wasn't talking to, or about, you... and then you said something to me... anyway, I'm glad you got to use your little 'chill pill' joke, hope you don't feel like you wasted it...

bodice_ripper

04-12-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Smart
yeah, no, well... I wasn't talking to, or about, you... and then you said something to me... anyway, I'm glad you got to use your little 'chill pill' joke, hope you don't feel like you wasted it...

oh not at all, thank you for your concern on that front. But google is a renewable resource, so not to worry

casekonly

04-12-2003, 02:38 PM

i prdict that syria is next, followed by either saudi arabia or iran...if pressed, i'd say iran. dubbyah has a couple more years in office, he's not going to stop until he fucks the u.s. for generations to come.

i was happy to see some iraqi's that are actually happy, but if you look closely, there aren't alot of them celebrating...how many in baghdad alone? 1 million? close? i only saw maybe 50 people celebrating... shite, niggy, those were shia muslims, too...the ones that saddam really hates...well, i say we shold have just left the middle east alone, if those people wanted to be liberated, the would have done it themselves...we should concentrate on russia for oil...some of the most vast untapped oil bearing land in the world....whatever, i support our troops, but only because they have to go over there and fight. just following orders...

as for north korea...i wonder if it's something to do with dubbyah calling them part of the axis of evil??? hmm.......it's not like we have to be scared of them or their nukes, anyway, remember the star wars defense system? there are better things now...we'd have two nukes on them before one of theirs even got halfway to california....and it wouldn't make it there anyway....mazers....yeah, planes with giant sodium iodide lasers (chemical laser) that can bust a hole in a missile...
neat stuff...the world as we know it is doomed...peace

BROWNer

04-12-2003, 03:37 PM

now that saddam is on the run/dead, guess who's now got the
#1 illest security apparatus...george w. bush!!! can you believe it?!

.

imported_PaperbackWriter

04-12-2003, 05:11 PM

all you anti-SARS chumps are heaps gay and pro-war is hard long live the illuminati!!!

Smart

04-12-2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
i was just pointing out that you weren't basing you little analogy on anything - it was just HYPERBOLE

uh... well, hyperbole is when you exaggerate to an extreme degree. I was basing my 'little' analogy on the generally accepted fact that Hitler killed 6 million Jews in WWII. I cut that number in half, to 3 million. That's the opposite of exaggeration, and hyperbole.

Sorry you wasted your big word too, maybe you can find one that actually fits next time...

Originally posted by casekonly
i was happy to see some iraqi's that are actually happy, but if you look closely, there aren't alot of them celebrating...how many in baghdad alone? 1 million? close? i only saw maybe 50 people celebrating... shite, niggy, those were shia muslims, too...the ones that saddam really hates...well, i say we shold have just left the middle east alone, if those people wanted to be liberated, the would have done it themselves...

right... all 50 of them shoulda just got it together and saved us a bunch of money and trouble...

bodice_ripper

04-12-2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Smart
uh... well, hyperbole is when you exaggerate to an extreme degree. I was basing my 'little' analogy on the generally accepted fact that Hitler killed 6 million Jews in WWII. I cut that number in half, to 3 million. That's the opposite of exaggeration, and hyperbole.

Sorry you wasted your big word too, maybe you can find one that actually fits next time...

twas hyperbole to compare ASKING for proof about weapons, to DENYING the deaths of millions of Jews

ahhhhhhhhhhhh, we're always laughing, you and me. C'mere you big lug :lick:

casekonly

04-12-2003, 10:59 PM

right... all 50 of them shoulda just got it together and saved us a bunch of money and trouble...

i know you're just being funny, but seriously, i think that if you oppress people long enough, they get tired of it eventually and do something about it. saddam's army's (apparently) turned against him, alot of the soldiers just went home after plaign their weapons in the strategic locations...they just gave up and left...if they had weapons and they were against saddam...i mean seriously...

KaBar

04-13-2003, 02:55 AM

I'd love to see the American people tell the United Nations to pack up their sorry-ass shit and get off our property. What, they can't pull this bullshit rip-off socialist scam from Brussels, or Paris or (more appropriately) Moscow? GET U.S. OUT OF THE UN! They Suuucck. It's like Gulliver and the Lilliputians. Fuck 'em. Go flaunt the local laws of France, you bunch of parasites! How's that quote go? "Going to war without the UN is like going deer hunting without your accordian." Absolutely. We have 53 more-or-less "allies" (supposedly) in the War Against Saddam. Most of them are on the par of Spain. What did they send? Twenty-five soldiers? We spend zillions to free the Iraqi people from fascism, and nations like Japan show up a day late and a dollar short.

This is the thanks we get for the Marshall Plan and not crushing Japan under our boots after WWII. I know how I'd vote about the UN---"Take your sad-ass shit on down the road, Socialists. AND PAY YOUR GODDAMNED TRAFFIC TICKETS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARDS."

S@T@N

04-13-2003, 03:06 AM

Word to cupcakes, man. These things are so fucking good.

Esai

04-13-2003, 03:06 AM

Kabar, you should just go full out and reject everyone else in the world, they all basically want to infringe on your rights. Then you will be the ruler of kabarland where evryone has a right to arms. Seriously homie, I aint no communist, but every great power needs another great power to keep it in check, judging from our cowboy president we need someone to fucken check our government realllllly fucken soon before his democracy bullshit rhetoric continues in full circle and ends up leaving the world in a fascist dictatorship.

04-13-2003, 03:38 AM

[img]http://www.dannycarey.org/danthrudrum.jpg'>

ctrl+alt+del

04-13-2003, 03:43 AM

YES THE IRAQIS LOVE AMERICA THATS WHY THEY ARE RIOTING AND LOOTING, YOU DUMB FUCKS!

shit, all the girls ive ever been in love with, ive raped!
thats how you show your respect for them!

.....no. no not at all.

mental invalid

04-14-2003, 04:56 PM

I'd love to see the American people tell the United Nations to pack up their sorry-ass shit and get off our property.

yeah, that would be brilliant......wonderful stroke of foreign policy

who knows the way this admin, you may get your wish....

then again careful what ya wish for

BROWNer

04-14-2003, 05:05 PM

skewage.

Janlo

04-14-2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by KaBar
I'd love to see the American people tell the United Nations to pack up their sorry-ass shit and get off our property. What, they can't pull this bullshit rip-off socialist scam from Brussels, or Paris or (more appropriately) Moscow? GET U.S. OUT OF THE UN! They Suuucck. It's like Gulliver and the Lilliputians. Fuck 'em. Go flaunt the local laws of France, you bunch of parasites! How's that quote go? "Going to war without the UN is like going deer hunting without your accordian." Absolutely. We have 53 more-or-less "allies" (supposedly) in the War Against Saddam. Most of them are on the par of Spain. What did they send? Twenty-five soldiers? We spend zillions to free the Iraqi people from fascism, and nations like Japan show up a day late and a dollar short.

This is the thanks we get for the Marshall Plan and not crushing Japan under our boots after WWII. I know how I'd vote about the UN---"Take your sad-ass shit on down the road, Socialists. AND PAY YOUR GODDAMNED TRAFFIC TICKETS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARDS."

wow. No wonder the majority of the world is becoming anti-american.
nice foreign policy that u have kabar...
damn that's stupid

KaBar

04-14-2003, 08:27 PM

If the land under the UN Building in New York is international property (hey, I'll buy that--like an embassy) let them go play "UN" in PARIS. They can have international property there just as good as international property here. The City of New York or the U.S. Government can purchase the land under the UN BUilding and tear it down and put a park there, or a hotel, or a hospital--something that will benefit the people of New York. The United Nations delegates can go get in traffic accidents in PARIS and refuse to be ticketed or answer lawsuits. They can blow their respective citizen's money on booze and whores in Luanda, instead of New York.
The truth is WE DON'T NEED THE UN, THEY NEED US. They want the UN headquarters in New York City because the entire UN scam is predicated upon them spending millions of dollars (that their respective countries cannot afford) so that they can come to New York and live the high life. It's a gigantic, socialistic rip off. Let them build the goddamned UN headquarters in Zimbabwe. What's wrong with that idea? There's no need for it to be here in the United States at all. Let them take it to Sweden, or Lithuania, or Thailand. Since we're all equals and all, I see no reason why the UN can't be situated in some Third World shithole, instead of in the middle of New York City.

The most offensive idea is that somehow the UN has one single shred of authority over the United States, it's citizens, our laws, or how we live our lives. THE UN HAS NO AUTHORITY IN THE UNITED STATES. This country belongs to US, and how we live here is up to nobody but the American people. Fuck the UN. Any American president that signs a treaty or international agreement ceding one iota of American sovereignity to the United Nations is behaving like a traitor. We owe the UN exactly nothing.

Now. If we decide to GENEROUSLY ASSIST THEM VOLUNTARILY to help in some disaster, or humanitarian effort, that's just fine. But they have NO AUTHORITY TO COMPELL US TO DO ANYTHING. Unless, of course, they'd care to come over here and try to make us. And if they try that, we will gladly leave their bleached bones in the streets of New York.

The difference between the people of the U.S. and the people of Iraq or Yugoslavia, etc., is that the people of the U.S. are armed, and willing to defend themselves. If we had been fighting the people of Iraq, instead of their hated government, I think we would have had a much, much, much harder time of it. The looting and riotous behavior just proves to me that the Iraqis see themselves as separate from their government. They obey authority that they see as legitimate (the Islamic scholars and religious authorities) but do not obey authority that they see as illegitimate. The mass majority of Iraqis just want peace and freedom, and no dictatorship. No different from the U.S.

villain

04-14-2003, 10:54 PM

Checks and balances Kabar.
And as far as the looting Iraqi's. They were also poor Iraqi's and strange middle classers with fetishes for certain pieces.
If chaos were ensuing in your country and you were no longer living under the barrel of a gun, would you sit around and wait to die? I don't think so. It's time to loot and pillage.

mental invalid

04-15-2003, 01:07 PM

ill let ya guess which to ministries in iraq have not been looted, do to marine presence outside....even though gen. brooks and rummy have said there was nothing we could really do, and we are to busy to police the region.......

give up.....

1. ministry of interior

2. ministry of oil

keep going to the trough you fucktards.......

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 02:38 PM

for those who didnt pay close enough attention, the reason this war happened was because the U.N. wasnt doing its job. If the U.N. took care of its business Bush would have had no reason/excuse for handling Iraq. And Bodice Ripper needs to check out this Chemical Ali
dude, who to me is the shining example of why this whole situation was justified. People getting blown up sucks, generations getting fucked up from chemical attacks REALLY sucks.

mental invalid

04-15-2003, 02:59 PM

and please triple dicker why dont you let us know where some of those chemical weapons come from.....please enlighten us.....

perhaps the drive up window located outside the office of US foreign diplomacy.....

"yes one order of anthrax and nerve agents, and a small coke please"

"youre not gonna use them on us are you??"

"no, no, just the iranians and my own people"

"oh, in that case would you like to supersize it"

mmmmmmmmm.......slop tastes good eh???

bodice_ripper

04-15-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by TRIPLE DECKR
for those who didnt pay close enough attention, the reason this war happened was because the U.N. wasnt doing its job. If the U.N. took care of its business Bush would have had no reason/excuse for handling Iraq. And Bodice Ripper needs to check out this Chemical Ali
dude, who to me is the shining example of why this whole situation was justified. People getting blown up sucks, generations getting fucked up from chemical attacks REALLY sucks.

yeah

If I recall, the US has used nuclear weapons against civilians, yes?

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 04:21 PM

i dont know if we gave iraq chemical weapons. if we did it was fucking stupid. no doubt about it, bad move. because they turned around and gassed x hundred thousand people, which the us never did. free will. if someone gives me a gun am i going to go shoot my upstairs neighbor? no. either way saddam was one fucked up stalinesque dictator, and that doesnt fly these days. he got crushed and in reality the us does need to chill out, but this war really wasnt all that uncalled for. its the legacy that has everyone flipping out. Hiroshima was the one time America actually pulled the trigger on anything even close to nuclear, and that was after pearl harbor and a whole lot of other fucked up shit, and i guarantee if japan could have done it to us, they would have. Im no big time historian, i only really know the life ive personally lived, and it seems to me that alot of people around here have never had enemies in their lives. sometimes you have to stop talking and show someone that they dont want to fuck with you.

Esai

04-15-2003, 04:40 PM

I still dont understand this bullshit logic in defense of the war. What gives the US the right to have WMD's and not anybody else. Our president has shown not an ounce of regard for the good of the world and the population as a dictator. Our presidential cabinet has been wrapped around several scandals that exposed the corruption and total lack of impartiality in their politics. Our president has dismissed several nuclear arms treaties, pissed on several UN charters, and constantly voted in favor of large corporations over the health of our citizens. So why should this fuckken lunatic be allowed responsible for the worlds largest army and weapons stockpile, and then have the nerve to start wars because other leaders are starting to arm themselves in fear of this rogue. I dont agree with saddam or terrorism, but no matter how crazy any world leader might be, Id be stockpiling as much shit as I could get as a response to the US govt's behavior. We didnt even finish Bush's 1st war and we already in another war, plus the US is starting shit with Syria. Hopefully the world will recognize how brainwashed this country's citizens are by the media, so they dont totally blame this ridiculous behavior totally on us. Do people really think the US is in a giant bubble where no one will judge their actions?

Oh yeah, hiroshima and nagasaki were bombed 2 days after japan surrendered and the war had ended. It was more of a show of force and a opportunity to validate the ridiculously expensive nuclear arms program. Read a little before the next time you start shitting stupidity out of your mouth triple decker.

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 04:41 PM

ok now you can give me a bunch of "facts" about how the us is to blame for everything ever, maybe someday ill agree. dont forget to shit on the media, who gave yo your facts.

Esai

04-15-2003, 04:46 PM

reading countless books and taking dozens of classes in college. Also looking at both sides and finding the logical medium. Pull your eyes off of fox news, even the owner of fox has said they dont report news, they report news in the context slanted for popular opinion.

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 04:47 PM

No Surrender

Japan had received what would seem to have been overwhelming shocks. Yet, after two atomic bombings, massive conventional bombings, and the Soviet invasion, the Japanese government still refused to surrender.

heres a little reading asshole.

bodice_ripper

04-15-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by TRIPLE DECKR
sometimes you have to stop talking and show someone that they dont want to fuck with you.

yep, i believe that's the argument that North Korea are currently using to explain thier nuclear exploits.....

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 04:57 PM

yep. all the rhetorical going in circles bullshit aside, what did the past think the future would look like? id figure a wasteland. good guess. the worst part of all this shit is that we, the youth, have nothing to do with this. we go off and die, for a college education. you want to make sense of all this? forget about it. read til your eyes melt youll still only have your opinion. if you really want to help out set your sights directly in front of you. buy a hungry homeless dude a sandwich. go volunteer at a soup kitchen. run for president. forget about it, its bigger than any of us.

villain

04-15-2003, 05:00 PM

There is a law that says that even in a time of war the people are still permitted to trade with the enemy. So even if we break all diplomatic ties and start war with a country we can still trade with them, hence mental invalids statement about the protected ministries. Yet another example of our shortsighted foreign policy. Basically we can become an unstoppable war machine with no conscience and our economic infrastructure will not so much as waver.
I see the UN as the conscience of the world and I think it's very bad to go against it. If we keep ignoring our conscience there can be very bad consequences in the age of terrorism. Such as a suitcase bomb special delivery. We need to let go of our imperialistic past (finally) and grow into an adulthood or be a spoiled bratty kid throwing temper tantrums until the end.
Sure Saddam used WMD on his own people and Iranians but anyone who knows the slightest bit about the Iran Contra affair knows that the US was playing both sides helping them destroy each other. I wish people would do their homework before posting. I would like to see this thread a thread of political fact, not political opinion.
I am not allowed to have an opinion. Thus I must state facts. That is fine with me.

Esai

04-15-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by TRIPLE DECKR
No Surrender

Japan had received what would seem to have been overwhelming shocks. Yet, after two atomic bombings, massive conventional bombings, and the Soviet invasion, the Japanese government still refused to surrender.

heres a little reading asshole.
Stop reading Rush Limbaugh or elementary school history books and youll find the truth. Read any thorough, impartial book with a timeline that chronicles the end of WW2 and US/Japanese realtions and youll see that the bombings came 2 days after japan had wired the US with a surrender. I did a report on this 2 years ago and went through several University libraries to find comprehensive documentation, its also in our Congess' records dipshit. Have a nice day.

zodiac ying

04-15-2003, 06:37 PM

On August 6 and 9, 1945, the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed by the first atomic bombs used in warfare.

Japan had received what would seem to have been overwhelming shocks. Yet, after two atomic bombings, massive conventional bombings, and the Soviet invasion, the Japanese government still refused to surrender.

The Potsdam Proclamation had called for "Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisers" (U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 2, pg. 1475). On the 13th, the Supreme Council For the Direction of the War (known as the "Big 6") met to address the Potsdam Proclamation's call for surrender. Three members of the Big 6 favored immediate surrender; but the other three - (War Minister Anami, Army Chief of Staff Umezu, and Navy Chief of Staff Toyoda - adamantly refused. The meeting adjourned in a deadlock, with no decision to surrender (Butow, pg. 200-202).

Later that day the Japanese Cabinet met. It was only this body - not the Big 6, not even the Emperor - that could rule as to whether Japan would surrender. And a unanimous decision was required (Butow, pg. 176-177, 208(43n)). But again War Minister Anami led the opponents of surrender, resulting in a vote of 12 in favor of surrender, 3 against, and 1 undecided. The key concern for the Japanese military was loss of honor, not Japan's destruction. Having failed to reach a decision to surrender, the Cabinet adjourned (Sigal, pg. 265-267).

On the following day, August 14, Anami, Umezu, and Toyoda were still arguing that there was a chance for victory (John Toland, The Rising Sun, pg. 936). But then that same day, the Cabinet unanimously agreed to surrender (Toland, pg. 939). Where none of the previous events had succeeded in bringing the Japanese military leaders to surrender, surrender came at Emperor Hirohito's request: "It is my desire that you, my Ministers of State, accede to my wishes and forthwith accept the Allied reply" (Butow, pg. 207-208).

blah blah - they surrendered AFTER the bombings. good for them, sucks for you. but you know everything so go ahead and quote some sources and then ill quote some more and we will be in the same position as everyone else concerned with whats going on right now in the middle east.

im going to go adopt a stray dog.

KaBar

04-16-2003, 07:55 AM

And with good reason. After bitch slapping the government of Iraq, next in line is Syria, then maybe North Korea. You guys ever heard of a mud check?

Once when I lived in Washington State, I was in a bar with a bunch of bros, and a bunch of guys from the Undertakers MC. The Undertakers are what is called a "town club." They lived out in the sticks (Pasco, Washington) and they were too far away from anywhere for the bigger clubs (like the Bandidos) to bother with them.
Anyway, the guys I rode with had some sense and didn't fuck with people. The Undertakers, on the other hand, made it a lifestyle.

We were in this bar and there were about ten or fifteen of my guys, about twenty Undertakers and some citizens. A couple of guys from a club in Idaho, Brothers Speed MC, rode up and dismounted and went inside. They'd been there about fifteen minutes or so when some asshole from the Undertakers starts insulting them and talking shit. Since they had them outnumbered about ten-to-one, the Undertakers were sort of going along with this bullying shit. After a little while, it was clear that there was going to be some shit. I started looking for the door. All the sudden, one of the Brothers Speed grabs this loudmouth from the Undertakers by the jacket (actually, his colors), whips out a .357 and sticks it under his chin.

"You want some shit?" he yells, "Okay, you got it, motherfucker!"
"Hey," says the UMC guy, "take it easy."
"Fuck you," says the BSMC guy. "MUD CHECK. Let's see if you got it. Take off those fucking colors or I blow your face off, bitch."

You could have heard a pin drop.

"I'm counting to five. One. Two. Three. Four." He cocks the pistol.
"No, wait a minute."
"Are you a fucking pussy? Yes or no?"
"Y-yes."
"Take 'em off." The UMC guy takes off his colors and drops them on the floor. "Get out, coward."
He immediately grabs another UMC guy. "Anybody tries to leave, I start shooting."
"Are you a pussy? Yes, or no?"
"Yes."
"Take 'em off and get out."

He went through seven guys before somebody finally said "no."

"NO?"
"No, I'm no pussy. If you're going to shoot me, GO AHEAD, you dicksucking bastard."
"You stand over there, tough guy." The second Brothers Speed patchholder was guarding the brave with a cocked pistol.

Eventually, he had it down to eight guys who refused.

"YOU MOTHERFUCKERS--we came in here to just get a beer. And you mother fuckers let a bunch of SORRY ASS PUSSIES wearing YOUR COLORS try to bully us and start shit. We ought to kill you all, but we aren't going to. If we ever hear of a single Brothers Speed rider having any trouble in this town again, we are going to come down here and kick your ass bigtime. If you EVER let a chickenshit coward like those guys put on your colors again, you are out of business."

The Undertakers, embarrassed and humiliated, all said "yes." The Brothers Speed guys made them take the colors outside and burn them.

Then they fired up and rode out.

A few years later, the Bandidos told the Undertakers "Take 'em off, or get smoked." The Undertakers disbanded, or so I heard. Today, a Bandidos affilliate, the Amigos MC, rides in Pasco.

That's a "mud check." Do you have the nuts? Or not?

effyoo

04-16-2003, 08:27 AM

That reminds me of something that happened to me when I was 12....

We were all skater kids, all trying to be the next Tommy Guerrero or Natas. These older kids, maybe 14 or 15 were the neighbourhood bad asses. John Fisher was the leader, the kid who was spoiled and who's parents could care less what he did.

As far back as I could remember he had the run of his house. Parents were gone all day etc.

So one day me and a friend, lets call him 'Shane', were over there trying to skate his quarter pipe and he calls us into his garage.
"Hey, you ever see a gun?"
"No."

Johnny F. pulls out what I later discovered to be a .22 and points it at my friend and cocks it. Shane starts shucking and jiving, and trying to avoid what buddy has in his sights.

After a few minutes of toying with Shane, with me just standing there not knowing what to do, he points it at me.

So I stood there.

I don't know whether I was scared, if I was tough, or what, but I stood there.

Then he pulled the tigger. You know in the movies when the character flinches? That was me. The gun wasn't loaded.

"Hey, how did you know it wasn't loaded?"
"Uh...."
"Man, you're alright"

Stupid or tough? I dunno, but they never picked on me or my little brother again.

T.T Boy

04-16-2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
Let them take it to Sweden, or Lithuania, or Thailand. Since we're all equals and all, I see no reason why the UN can't be situated in some Third World shithole, instead of in the middle of New York City.

yes, Sweden, the third world nation. good one.

yeah, fuck the rest of the world, im sure the us could be completely self sufficent. do you have any idea how much power canada gives the east coast? let alone what the rest of the world gives the us? the rest of the world can get along fine with out uncle sam, but uncle same cant get along just fine with out the rest of the world.

effyoo

04-16-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by T.T Boy
the rest of the world can get along fine with out uncle sam, but uncle same cant get along just fine with out the rest of the world.

Wow, that was very profound. [img]http://www.12ozprophet.com/ubb/icons/icon26.gif'>

Edit * spelling etc

mental invalid

04-16-2003, 01:43 PM

im confused about kabars story...so when he says "you mutha fuckers..." is he talking to the 8 who said they werent pussies....

i agree with kabar on occasion, and vehemently oppose him on others
....im just not sure how s.korea, japan, and china really feel about starting a war in their back yard, with nuclear weapons....

also im not sure how a bunch of motorcycle gangs, with illegal weapons and probably engaged in all sorts of illegal activity, are such a good example to use.....

but i did enjoy the story....except i wish there had been one kim jong il, in the bunch who had just pulled out a gun and started shooting....then everyone starts shooting, and everyone dies and the no one gets to enjoy a beer, and the bar is full of blood and feces.....cause thats a more realistic outcome with NK.....

then again i just realized something.....maybe we are the dicks, just starting trouble, whose gonna give us a mud check.....

imported_Tesseract

04-16-2003, 02:01 PM

Roe be steady schooling fools with class...

Describing sweden as a 'third world shithole' proves just how much you know about the rest of the world...seems like you're clueless to me.

Stories about gangs and shit prove how you view the world...and your ideal way of solving (or creating) problems....a 50 year old gun crazed nurse that gets fascinated by teenage stories..shake your head man..

mental invalid

04-16-2003, 02:30 PM

fucking tess......:lol:

phism

04-16-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by bodice_ripper
I would think that after all these years, the Iraqis know that when a tank rolls down your street, you come out and fucking cheer for it - regardless of who's tank it is........................

I agree with the proof bit - let's see those mountains of WMDs they have hmmm.............................?

And lets see the US achieve Model Democracy Status, with a president who respects the Constitution, and one-man-one vote.............................

fairly early in the war:
"One group of Iraqi boys on the side of the road smiled and waved as a convoy of British tanks and trucks rolled by.

But once it had passed, leaving a trail of dust and grit in its wake, their smiles turned to scowls.

"We don't want them here," said 17-year-old Fouad, looking angrily up at the plumes of gray smoke rising from Basra. "

phism

04-16-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by casekonly
i prdict that syria is next, followed by either saudi arabia or iran...if pressed, i'd say iran. dubbyah has a couple more years in office, he's not going to stop until he fucks the u.s. for generations to come.

i was happy to see some iraqi's that are actually happy, but if you look closely, there aren't alot of them celebrating...how many in baghdad alone? 1 million? close? i only saw maybe 50 people celebrating... shite, niggy, those were shia muslims, too...the ones that saddam really hates...well, i say we shold have just left the middle east alone, if those people wanted to be liberated, the would have done it themselves...we should concentrate on russia for oil...some of the most vast untapped oil bearing land in the world....whatever, i support our troops, but only because they have to go over there and fight. just following orders...

as for north korea...i wonder if it's something to do with dubbyah calling them part of the axis of evil??? hmm.......it's not like we have to be scared of them or their nukes, anyway, remember the star wars defense system? there are better things now...we'd have two nukes on them before one of theirs even got halfway to california....and it wouldn't make it there anyway....mazers....yeah, planes with giant sodium iodide lasers (chemical laser) that can bust a hole in a missile...
neat stuff...the world as we know it is doomed...peace

it's [afghanistan, iraq,] syria, iran, lebanon, then saudi arabia. get ready to hear the word "hezbollah" a lot.

we're not attacking north korea because they're not enemies of israel. if it comes down to it [russia & china trying to stop our aggression in the middle east], we may attack north korea.

welcome to the apocalypse.

villain

04-16-2003, 06:41 PM

As far as I know the only WMD found are actually agricultural chemicals that can be of dual use probably sold to them by US corporatons. I don't see the bloody witchunt inquistion attacking these corporations....

TOP LOCK

04-16-2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by phism
fairly early in the war:
"One group of Iraqi boys on the side of the road smiled and waved as a convoy of British tanks and trucks rolled by.

But once it had passed, leaving a trail of dust and grit in its wake, their smiles turned to scowls.

"We don't want them here," said 17-year-old Fouad, looking angrily up at the plumes of gray smoke rising from Basra. "

those two faced little shits.

Esai

04-16-2003, 08:02 PM

^^^
No shit, one of them could of at least had some balls and gave one of the soldiers a hug witha detonated grenade in his pocket.

phism

04-16-2003, 08:24 PM

KaBar

04-17-2003, 07:23 AM

I view the world exactly as I have found it to be. I started off with one set of ideas and beliefs and wound up with a totally different set. That's me. You guys must come to your own conclusions.

I think my silly analogy of Iraq and the Brothers Speed mud check is an amusing one. The Iraqis might very well be able to found a democratic country without our help, and quite honestly, if I thought there was a hope of that actually occurring, I'd be all for us packing up all our shit and going home.

But in real life, all the little terrorist fascists would pop out of the woodwork and start assassinating pro-democracy candidates (they might anyway) and trying to impose their own will on the Iraqi people. It would just be "Saddam II" and we'd have to come back and do it all over again.

Just like with Nazi Germany, there will probably be a few formerly Baath Party police chiefs and judges, etc., that get back into power, but with a moderate, pro-democracy government into power, it will be difficult to re-establish the Torture and Murder Inc. set-up that Saddam had going.

If the judges are elected, and the Iraqi constitution institutes a TRUE jury system and Grand Jury system, with universal suffrage and Jury Duty, and elected judges, it is unlikely (so long as the people remain armed and the police limit themselves to enforcing laws enacted by democratically-elected representatives of the people) that fascism can become re-established. Iraq has a good chance of actually achieving a Constitutional republic with a democratic form of government.

The biggest problem is that the people have no cultural history or memory of true democracy. Here in the United States, we inculcate every 1st grader with the ideology of one-citizen-one vote, democratic principles, socialization, etc. It would be impossible to create a fascist dictatorship here. The seeds of democratic government are safely within every kid. If some disaster destroyed our entire government, and it was suddenly the responsibility of a class of high school kids to re-establish civil authority, I think we would have free, fair elections and democratically-elected representatives in short order.

"Okay, kids, it's snack time! Who wants sugar cookies? Raise your hand. One- two-three-four...eleven! Okay. Who wants chocolate chips? One-two-three-four...fourteen! Very GOOD, you voted very well. Chocolate chips it is, everybody stay at your desk and Susie will bring you your cookies."

When I was in high school, every high school had a student government and an ROTC unit, as well as the usual football jocks-and-elected-cheerleaders deal. Voting is how Americans are taught to make decisions. Democracy is not superficial in the U.S., it is part of the cultural fabric of our country.

This is not true (yet) in Iraq.

mental invalid

04-17-2003, 01:09 PM

"It would be impossible to create a fascist dictatorship here. The seeds of democratic government are safely within every kid."

thats is quite a contradiction to some of your earlier rationalization to the need for an armed society....the other being protection from individuals.....

if there is no possibility, which i think is right, then how does this mesh with your previous statements?

villain

04-17-2003, 04:22 PM

I think you may be right Kabar but I happen to think that generally speaking deep down people have the same desires. We just want to live at peace with our neighbors and whatnot. Every kind of government including fascism promises a decent standard of living and a stable nation.... it's just when these ideals infringe upon others is where we start to get into problems. Sometimes I think that alot of people are really just selfish so when they want a peaceful community they are really just looking out for themselves and when they don't give a damn about the country next door that's an extension of that selfishness. Perhaps it would be good for the US to set up some standards for a democratic nation as guidelines. However the one major flaw in our country as far as I can tell is free enterprise. We have all kinds of checks and balances in government, that is good, but maybe our founding fathers underestimated the incredible power these corporations would attain and eventually influence the government with. Did you know Bush's cabinet is called the "Tycoon Club"?

BROWNer

04-17-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by KaBar
Democracy is not superficial in the U.S., it is part of the cultural fabric of our country.

i think that is a nice broad overview of the democratic system of the US, but
macro that view and its not quite so round peg round hole. people don't even vote
anymore, i don't know the latest actual stats, but a disturbing chunk of the population does not bother with voting, they feel powerless with a two party system, and feel that even if they did vote, their voice would not really matter in the end. this has been going on for awhile...that to me is a serious issue, one that is in conflict with this new wave of rabid patriotism..
lets not forget florida.....and various other smaller elections throughout the united states recently..............these aren't superficial?
forgive me for being nitpicky, i just think if you're going to look at the US as a democratic model, and brag about it, you don't just black out the crimes of florida, or jeb bushes second term elections, or the non-democracy of the corporate/power media....
anyhow....i think its interesting, beyond whats going on in the rest of the world..to look at whats going on in the united states........everyone is distracted by your media, and now the next big PR campaign looks to be syria, of all places..your government wants to export its value system and democratic model....with force or coercive diplomatics in many cases...i think maybe it's time to just chill and take a look at yourselves, let the dust settle, slooooww down.. ?

zodiac ying

04-17-2003, 07:15 PM

vote for this vote for that. come on people, do you think it matters? did it ever matter? kennedy mattered - nah mean?

obviously were all being framed by satan who is desperately trying unleash hell.

villain

04-17-2003, 07:23 PM

If we were truly a democratic country, would we not ask every 18 and over Syrian "Do you want to be a democratic nation?".
Yeah if anyone has validated the fears of the vote being undermined it's old dubya.

Smart

04-17-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by villain
If we were truly a democratic country, would we not ask every 18 and over Syrian "Do you want to be a democratic nation?".

Huh?

Aside from that just not making sense, how would we get in touch with all these Syrians over 18? Has someone got the Syrian phonebook? Seems like it would just degenerate into crank calls...

"Hello Achmed, is your camel running? Do you have Prince Faisal in a can? Do you have 10 pound balls?"

Is that how we beat the Ruskies? A massive telemarketing campaign:
"Sorry to bother you during the dinner hour sir, but wouldn't you rather be free?"
"NYET!!!" (slams down phone)...

--zeSto--

04-17-2003, 08:44 PM

that's was really good smart. 'Prince Faisal in a can' !! classic!
That would have even made my grandfather (rip) laugh. He loved that joke.

and Kabar...
"The biggest problem is that the people have no cultural history or memory of true democracy. "

Yes they have no memory of democracy, but to say they have no cultural history is just plain wrong. I think that most of the problems going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and the middle east are due in part to the fact that the people have a little too much cultural history and refuse to let it go. Everyone has a claim to the land becasue their ancestors from 3000 years BC decided to park their sandals in the sand. Iraq was the site of ancient Babylon. I think that most of the Iraqi people know this fact and it probably makes for a great sence of national pride. The US has what, 400 hundred years? That's counting time before it was recognized as a nation too.

I guess it's becoming a ramble, but the people in Iraq DO have cultural history,
and it seems like they might have it to an unhealthy degree becasue it keeps
them from coming to terms with many beneficial things that modern society can offer them.

imported_Tesseract

04-17-2003, 10:05 PM

Well said Kilo..actually if iraqi people have something (besides seas of oil) its culture and history...Browner's points hit the nail aswell...Kabar, i agree..you do view the world exactly as you find it to be...and when your conclusion is that sweden is a third world shithole, or that despite the fact that democracy is so strong in america, yet everyone should own a gun incase some paranoid dictator (and god knows how many others to be able to pull that shit) takes over and the people can take him down. Its easy to see that those are points that come to a conflict not only on a theoritical basis but on obvious historical and economical terms...i'd say that your view of the world is a bit messy.

ModelCitizen

04-18-2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
Voting is how Americans are taught to make decisions.

That's why votership percentages are so sky-high.

KaBar

04-18-2003, 07:35 AM

I never thought, when I wrote that sentence, that anyone would interpret what I wrote as "No cultural history. Or memory of democracy."

What I mean was NO CULTURAL HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY, and NO MEMORY OF DEMOCRACY. It's difficult to teach people who have lived all their lives in a culture in which social life is a zero sum game between several tribes, and the government of the country is poisoned with hatred and corruption and torture.

You American 12 ouncers have lived all your lives in the wealthiest democratic Constitutional republic on earth. If cable goes out for a few hours it's a big crisis. I have several teenaged acquaintances who described their lives and existance to me as "oppressed." These guys all own cars, have the Internet and two of three have a color TV with cable in their bedroom. That is NOT OPPRESSION, guys. They live a life of such unbelieveable privelege and wealth that they think that walking to school is a serious punishment.

Americans don't vote for a variety of reasons. Mostly, I think it's because life here is so safe, so predictable and so comfortable that none of us can really imagine it being any other way. I think plenty of people don't vote because they are self-centered, lazy bitches. They try to get out of jury duty for the same reason. They are lazy, selfish pussies.

I believe that the system under which we live was originally designed to provide maximum control over government and maximum freedom for individuals. There was no standing army AT ALL, originally. The Continental Army was raised from volunteers from the colonial militias, and paid for by voluntary contributions from colonial governments in rebellion, which rather quickly became known as "States." Each state was like a country unto itself, and except as provided for in the Articles of Confederation, independent.
These states all had very strong traditions of a strong, independent jury system, in which each citizen accused of a crime was tried BY A JURY OF HIS PEERS. Judges were appointed by the Colonial Governor, but juries were selected from the population from the tax rolls. This system was carried over into the post-Revolution period, and in a rather perverted form, even down to today. Judges were never supposed to be anything but a referee in the courtroom, and in times past (before 1898) before the jury retired to it's deliberations, the judges read what was called a "jury charge," in which the Judge was required to tell the jury that they were sitting in judgement of BOTH THE LAW AND THE FACTS OF THE CASE. In other words, if the law was bullshit, A JURY could refuse to convict the defendant, and could sit in judgement of the law itself.

In 1898, this was changed, to empower judges over the jury, and today, the perverted "jury charge" is to tell the jury EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, that they cannot make a determination in the case on anything but the information presented in the courtroom by the respective attorneys, which of course, is completely controlled by the JUDGE. This is a very unfair and un-American change, and turns juries into a rubber stamp for the judge. Today, if the jury wishes to return a verdict not in accordance with the judge's wishes, it's called jury nullification. This is considered a bad thing, and judges refer to juries like this as "renegade" juries, as if the Judge is supposed to control the outcome of a trial. Bullshit! THE JURY OWNS THE COURTROOM, NOT THE JUDGE.

Somehow, the word "militia" has come to be regarded as a negative thing, like a quasi-terrorist group. Again, a perversion of original intent has occurred. The militia is not ten guys out in somebody's pasture. When one says "militia" it should conjure up the same image as the word "electorate." The law states it CLEARLY. The militia consists of EVERY ABLE-BODIED MAN BETWEEN ages 17 and 45, with a few exceptions (the Vice President, clergymen, essential workers at arsenals and shipyards, etc.) ALL OTHER ABLE-BODIED MEN, REGARDLESS OF RACE, CREED OR COLOR ARE IN THE MILITIA.

Over 17? Able-bodied? Male? Welcome to the service of your country, citizen. And if you are not presently a citizen, but you "have made declaration to so become" you are in the militia. You don't get a choice, every man will serve. THIS was the original intent, not an "all-volunteer Army" of professionals. Not a "select militia" like the Army National Guard, or the Marine Reserves. EVERY SINGLE ABLE-BODIED MAN.

The Second Amendment says a "well-regulated" militia. That means "WELL-TRAINED" in the language of 1789. The idea was that nobody could oppress a nation of riflemen for long. It was true then, and it's still true today.

The last leg of this stool is the idea of "one man, one vote." This one was clearly imperfect, even years later. The Founding Fathers considered the word "democracy" the same way that later generations viewed the word "communism" or "socialism." They worried that the uneducated, unlettered masses would screw up the country by voting themselves universal pensions at the government's expense, and surrender power to demagogues. As the country matured, the right to vote went from landowners (nobody paid ONE CENT in taxes except landowners, originally---whatever you managed to earn, you kept) to all white men, then to all men, then to both men and women. Today, anyone 18 years old may vote. I think it should be 17. If you are old enough to carry a rifle in the militia, you should be old enough to vote.

The "ultra-conservatives" call these ideas the "Three Boxes of Freedom."
The jury box, the cartridge box and the ballot box. It's a simple idea, and if correctly put into action, by earnest people of good will, would work perfectly, both here and in benighted Third World sewers like Iraq.

Enter the lawyers and shysters. Leave it up to lawyers to fuck up a good thing.

One of the most destructive "reforms" to happen is the American political arena was a change in the way U.S. Senators are elected. Originally, U.S. Senators were elected not by the people of a senatorial district, but BY THE STATE LEGISLATURE. In other words, they were representatives OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE sent to Congress to represent the State. If they pissed off the state legislators, the State Legislature had the right to impeach them, elect another Senator, and sent him (or her) to Congress. The Senators were on a leash that led back to the STATE.

Today, Senators (as well as U.S. Representatives, known as "Congressmen") are ELECTED AT LARGE BY THE VOTERS IN A SENATORIAL DISTRICT. This was supposed to be a "reform." In actual fact, it took the leash off Senators and Representatives. Once they get elected, their sole purpose is to get RE-elected and to maintain their positions of power and privelege. They are accountable to nobody. They think of themselves as little kings. And as long as the voters can be fooled, they do as they please. They are NOT ACCOUNTABLE to the State Legislators any longer. The State Legislature is almost redundant now. This is a very bad thing, and is one thing that has led to the CENTRALIZATION of the Federal Government. You think Washington D.C. is run by assholes who don't answer to the people? This is why. This change took the local leash off of Congress.

imported_Tesseract

04-18-2003, 08:47 AM

Well, i dont really know...i'm not american but i wouldnt count material comforts as a sign for a free country with people that have a political conscience. Its another thing to enjoy the privilliges of living in a free country and another to go deep into apathy. Opression comes in many forms, the most obvious form is when one is under a dictatorship and its more than clear that he's being fucked over while any form of power is taken away from him. Another form is when you realise that the power you have in theory translates to shit in the real world but still you are provided all the comforts to keep forgeting that. I mean, if you look at it, the current goverment is deep in corruption ( see, enron etc etc etc) engaged in many other scandals (the ones Browner mentioned) and above all a big question over how legitimate their election was to begin with. If you look at that closesly you'd see that it doesnt dont follow the guidelines of a democracy, the main reason for that is that people themselfs stopped practising their rights while they felt secure on their grounds and embrassed by a strong economy that provides a wealthy life...the 'whatever' status. All that led to an understanding of things that is totally based on economic criteria. Its most likely that Bush will go down because he's harming the economy rather beacause all the corruption and shady shit he pulls.
Bottom line, apathy is a bad thing and so is lack of options.

KaBar

04-19-2003, 08:57 PM

"Apathy is a bad thing, and so is a lack of options." I could not agree more, but you cannot force people to stop getting drunk and high and pay attention to the world around them. Most people are content to sleepwalk through life--this is why the Constitutionalists refer to the mass majority of citizens as "sheeple." (When they hear people make stupid, anti-Constitution statements the Constitutionalists start making that "baaaaa baaaa" sheep sound.)

It's a lot of work to take care of oneself. Most people would be more than happy to let the Government tell them what to do. The laws are the way they are because THE PEOPLE elect representatives who think that these sorts of laws are what people want.

I think people should be completely left alone to take care of themselves. No welfare, no SSI, no SSDI. Definately no AFDC. Make your own decisions, and deal with the consequences.

johnbull

04-19-2003, 10:16 PM

to all you people who love the usa...they killed all the indians and took america..the europeans gave birth to this.....usa is the muscle and the uk is the head of this evil octopus....

private property is stolen land and we can only live like this because most of the world lives in shit

the usa will fall like the previous giant empires before it..romans..hitler etc...

when some aliens finally land and fuk us ALL then remember your shity little country.....usa, uk, whatever. we are all earthlings but it will take something like that to make us realise that we are the same.

when you think about the planets and solar systems its hard to take life seriously on any level on this small place...

money and greed are the root of all evils and as for religeon....

Smart

04-19-2003, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by johnbull
the usa will fall like the previous giant empires before it..romans..hitler etc...

Well... how long did the Roman empire last?

And... America has been around for?

So... how long am I gonna have to wait for this?

Smart

04-19-2003, 10:23 PM

Oh, and Hitler never had an 'empire' at all... he was in a state of constant war for the last half of his rule and he only lasted 30 years... If you want a real empire from that part of the world, you should probably think 'Ottoman' or look into the 'Hapsburgs'

imported_Tesseract

04-20-2003, 12:15 AM

The whole roman empire deal is bullshit, the structure of things has changed so much that is close to impossible for something like that to happen...keep in mind that the essence of war is a whole different thing these days, the last wars that were fought for ground domination were on WW2 and you saw what happened. When you're in war that is about ground, and you built an empire in that way, the first country you'll lose is the starting point of you getting your ass kicked out of everyplace you invaded. Your economics dont balance and you're off the game.
US wars have nothing to do with all that, the US will remain a superpower no matter what, what i wish, for the sake of everyone is that other powers will grow strong to a competitive level and some sort of balance will be achieved...The oxymoron of this whole deal is that taken that globalisation is reality, you cant be in favor of democracy while you practice monarchy on globe scale.

BROWNer

04-20-2003, 04:13 AM

people make me laugh.

Smart

04-20-2003, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
THERE ARE NO FREEDOMS ANY MORE.... IF YOU HAVE FUN AND SOMEHOW BECOME THE LEAST BIT HAPPY WHILE LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY... VERY LUCKY...

You should consider yourself a bitter teen, VERY bitter... If the "oppresiveness" of the US government is overwhelming then you are a whiny little bitch who needs a holiday in Cambodia...

ikueism

04-20-2003, 05:43 AM

drunk

Smart

04-20-2003, 05:47 AM

I'm not DEfending anything, I'm Offending you, sukkka... go tell it to a brazilian street kid...

Smart

04-20-2003, 05:55 AM

no, you obviously misunderstand.

NO DRAMA. You're a BITCH.

Smart

04-20-2003, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
AMERICA, AS AN IDEOLOGY, IS DEAD... THERE ARE NO FREEDOMS ANY MORE.... IF YOU HAVE FUN AND SOMEHOW BECOME THE LEAST BIT HAPPY WHILE LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY... VERY LUCKY...

oh right, I see... it's me that loves the drama...

effyoo

04-20-2003, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
IF YOU HAVE FUN AND SOMEHOW BECOME THE LEAST BIT HAPPY WHILE LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY

I think you are a spoiled kid who doesn't know how to deal with his teenaged angst. Spoiled in the sense that you don't have the faintest idea of how lucky you really are. Like Smart said, 'Go tell it to a Brazillian street kid'. Or any kid who was born in a developing country.

People in those less fortunate countries have learned to appreciate the things make them happy, while we pump out idiots like you who latch onto an ideology because they have nothing better to do. You are responsible for your own happiness. Don't blame your angst on America.

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
I WANNA SEE SOME OF YOUR GRAFF, SMART... I SERIOUSLY DOUBT YOU HAVE DONE ANYTHNG WORTHY OF BEING "KING OF 12OZ" AS YOU CLAIM TO BE...

well, find where I claimed to be "King of 12oz"... then I'll let you see the front side of my nuts (for a change)...

"Even jesters get tha crabs on 12oz!"

effyoo

04-20-2003, 06:10 AM

Oh, I get it, but why so angry? That's all I was getting at. Having traveled to a couple developing countries, I've never met anyone who comes across as pent-up as you do.

'ARRGH! TYPING IN CAPS WILL MAKE PEOPLE SEE MY SIMPLISTIC VIEWS ON THINGS! ARRGH!'

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE LESS OTHERS HAVE.... GET IT?

says the whiny little boy with the computer and internet connection...

BROWNer

04-20-2003, 06:13 AM

eh....not to single anyone out or anything, but...
this whole 'be thankful for what you've got' rebuttal as a
means of flippantly sidestepping the core concern(s) about
this war, and america's role in the world is a little
played, sort of like the whole 'fucking hippies' thing about
anti-war people...
in mr. 'vandalize the system' signature guy's case it may
be warranted, but....can we not dip into that cheese from now on?

effyoo

04-20-2003, 06:17 AM

Brown, agreed. But when things are stated in such a simple, black and white way, its hard to take the statements seriously because they smack of ignorance.

edit**razemachinesytemoner, or whatever, taking a quote out of context is not cool and just makes you look weak.

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:21 AM

doesn't the fact that Raze misquoted me just show the ineptitude inherent in his whole argument... he doesn't know why he's "anti-America", he's just doing it because it's cool, like Susan Sarandon...

(But, I do admit a certain weakness for Ms Sarandon, ever since I saw her tits in Rocky Horror... 125 times (well, 2 tits so 250?)...)

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:23 AM

*for the record, I started my reply before efyoo edited his post...

BROWNer

04-20-2003, 06:25 AM

listen, i think both of you are coming off retardley. sorry.
and i'm sorry i poked fun at your signature...
you listen to rage against the machine right?
i'm not on anyone's side...in my perfect world i am unique and special..:tongue:
most of the so called 'anti-war'
people on this site, while having good sincere intentions that i support,
haven't really said anything that makes me want to be
all pally with them...i think your heart is in the right place,
but your thinking is not..really...my style..or at least the way you communicate it..
anyways..this whole e-anonymity thing really turns people's brains to mush.
i am the all knowing BROWNer.

effyoo

04-20-2003, 06:26 AM

Either way, we're saying the same thing.

BROWNer

04-20-2003, 06:28 AM

says who?

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:29 AM

Honestly, I don't care what a person believes, as long as they actually believe it... I revel in pointing out false piety however... blame it on the catholic church.

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by razeagainst
im not "anti-war" or "anti-american" those are labels deez fools slapped on me to give themselves a much needed vantage point, since they lack a sound argument...

I'm sorry, I thought I made it immediately clear that I thought yoyu were STUPID and SPOILED... anything else I called you was just a euphamism (look it up) for either or both of those words...

effyoo

04-20-2003, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by BROWNer
says who?

If you were talking to me, I was referring to Smart's post with the Susan Sarandon reference.

BROWNer

04-20-2003, 06:38 AM

extensive in quotes...does that mean that extensive is itself an.."extensive"
piece of vocabulary?

11:37pm

Smart

04-20-2003, 06:40 AM

I think he meant it ironically...

like when I was at the DMV (just visiting) and the sign said:
"SORRY"
This window closed.

imported_suburbian bum

04-20-2003, 08:33 PM

Oh shit i was going to say somthing then i realized people on here actually beleive that what the media says is the whole story.

imported_PaperbackWriter

04-21-2003, 02:54 AM

pass the freedom fries. cut the mullet.

KaBar

04-21-2003, 04:29 AM

Millions and millions of people live on less than a dollar a day. They are feeding and housing entire families for less money than 15-year-olds in America spend on CD's in a week or two. How can one not be grateful? You lucked out---raise your eyes to Whatever Gods May Be and say "Thank you."

I know it's terribly unpopular to say so, but I'm not buying the argument about how the West was won. It was a war, we won it, fair and square. The Indians lost, and now they are part of the wealthiest, most powerful nation on earth. Look at all the indigenous, spiritual, Native American things they occupy their time with---like running casinos. I'm not complaining, they have a right to do so, and more power to them, but spare me the Wounded Knee arguments. They can powwow, they can go to college, they can go out to the Rez and live in Government-supplied housing, they can join the Marines and become warriors for real, whatever. God bless 'em---FREE TO CHOOSE, just like everybody else.

Same goes for the Southwest. We had a war with Mexico, who claimed this land from the Spanish, who got it from the Mayas and Incas and so on, by the sword. The Indios killed one another for it, and maintained one of the most horrific, blood-thirsty cultures to ever exist upon the face of the earth, so I guess if the supporters of the Atzlan mythology want to claim the Southwest, all I can say is "Come get some." Yeah, the reason that millions of illegal aliens pour across our southern border every year is because life is so oppressive here, and whities hate Latinos so much. Bullshit. We live in the Land of Milk and Honey, and the Mexicanos want some too. LOS ANGELES is the second largest MEXICAN city in the world (that is, a city made up of MEXICAN CITIZENS), second only to Mexico City itself. I don't see any of those guys eager to go back home. If they wanted to live in Mexico, they would fucking live in Mexico. They don't. They want to live in the United States, in American culture, under American law, in an American economy. Good for them. If Mexico had less corruption, a Bill of Rights, and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, millions more Americans would be living there now than live there at present. Quite frankly, I don't care to live in a nation that doesn't trust it's people with firearms. Hell, the Republic of Mexico doesn't even trust the people with CB RADIOS for God's sake. Fuck that. Any nation that fucked up deserves what they get. If the people had any guts, they would seize control of the Government and demand a genuine, democratic, Constitutional republic, instead of the oligarchy that exists today, but unfortunately, the opposition in Mexico is poisoned with the something-for-nothing philosophy of socialism. I suspect that they will be at least another fifty or a hundred years in developing a middle class with any power.

But I digress.

None of us have any obligation to become educated and economically independent. If you prefer to flip burgers all your life, or run a head shop, or a voodoo candle and herbs shop, or sell used bicycles off the top of a van, you are 100% at liberty to do so. (Each one of these businesses or occupations is one in which I have an acquaintence so employed.) Keep in mind, though, that thousands and thousands of immigrants arrive here every year who have absolutely no regard for socialism whatsoever. They go to work to own their own businesses with a single-minded energy that is astonishing. The second generation goes straight to college. And the third are almost all top-performing students at top-notch universities. The future leadership of America will probably come from the ranks of these people. The present leadership may be mostly white, mostly Protestant and mostly from Ivy League universities like Harvard, Yale and so on, but the future is Latino and Asian. Take my word, they will be every bit as success-oriented as the present crop. Eventually, there will be "a black President", a woman President, an Asian President. When these positions are attained, they will not be filled with the likes of a Jesse Jackson or a Diane Feinstein. They will be filled with people like Condoleeza Rice--the best of the best, regardless of background. Racism is passe'. We live in a meritocracy, or pretty close to one. Work hard--or don't. Your choice. If you choose to kick it, I got no problem with that. But don't bitch about unfair life is. Each of us is living the fantasy life of much of the world's population. If they could get here, they'd do it. Be glad you're where you're at.

Esai

04-21-2003, 05:58 AM

Kabar, that was one of the most narrowminded, moronic dialogues Ive heard anyone blurt out in a while. I usually skip past your rantings, but I saw the word Indian in one of your paragraphs so I decided to read that crap. I dont have the time to correct all the stupidity you blurted out, but I'll indulge myself a bit. First of all, the US wasnt won fair and square. Agreeing to treaties, signing agreements,and then murdering the other party is not fair and square. Occupying a foreign land with the intent to annihilate it's citizens, murdering innocent women, men children, and the elderly is not fair and square. My great grandfather was killed by US soldiers because he refused to allow his children to be educated about a foreign culture hundreds of miles away. His only crime was to be proud of our culture and want the right to live unharrassed. But that's just one example of 20 million or more other sad events. To defend the actions of the US is intolerable, its equivalent to defending the Nazi extermination of Jews(tripled, at the least). To deny historical facts in favor of disneyfied bullshit is absurd and somewhat telling of your character. I personally am annoyed by people who spend all their time whining, but the genocide and atrocious behavior of the US is and never will be justifiable. It was greedy europeans who where too lazy to make an honest life for themselves murdering various beautiful cultures upon contact, and then stealing their land and resources, to put it simply. This crap continues today and is responsible for why people are trampling over each other to clean the houses of the ancestors of these murderers. To sustain any pocket of extreme material wealth there must be a vast source of cheap labor, which is why many peoples are kept in a artificial state of extreme poverty, this is no conspiracy theory, its common logic and human history. Do you honestly believe that all these 3rd world continents are just naturally shitholes? You must not be educated on the great empires of africa, the americas, asia, etc. Do you think these empires just disappeared. No, they were obliterated by europe to supply western countries with cheap labor. That is why the US supports dictatorships, that is why the US gives large corporations more rights than any citizen. Europeans destroyed these civilizations by superior weaponry and sheer cruelty. This is not opinion, its historical fact. The need for firearms is an indicator of inferior physical ability, the denial of history is either ignorance or stupidity. Im sure you'd be eating your words if China successfully obliterated western civilization in the name of racial superiority and greed. Bla Bla Bla, go back to timing how quick you can reassmble your guns in the dark. Peace

T.T Boy

04-21-2003, 08:13 AM

i just want an island in the sun.
with a hockey rink.

imported_Europe

04-21-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
I know it's terribly unpopular to say so, but I'm not buying the argument about how the West was won. It was a war, we won it, fair and square. The Indians lost, and now they are part of the wealthiest, most powerful nation on earth. Look at all the indigenous, spiritual, Native American things they occupy their time with---like running casinos. I'm not complaining, they have a right to do so, and more power to them, but spare me the Wounded Knee arguments. They can powwow, they can go to college, they can go out to the Rez and live in Government-supplied housing, they can join the Marines and become warriors for real, whatever. God bless 'em---FREE TO CHOOSE, just like everybody else.

Oh yeah, free to choose... Im guessing none of the indians chose "lets live like we did before the settlers came around and fucked up our society"

johnbull

04-21-2003, 11:02 AM

how come you wankers at 12ounces of batty boy cum in all your mothers corn holes censor comments you dont like????

fuk your invalid sisters with a USA army boot in your yankee muthafukkkin butts...fukin american toys

viva fidel and bin laden burn hollywood burn ....cock off!!!!!!

evil cunts....this site is only hardcore on the london thread ...you batty boys gwan lie dead.....

imported_Europe

04-21-2003, 11:42 AM

^^
What the hell are you talking about?

KaBar

04-21-2003, 05:02 PM

You have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your position. I have relatives (well, distant relatives) who were murdered by Indians for the crime of farming corn, raising chickens and living in a dugout house on the side of a hill in north Texas. So what? You don't see me going around blaming Native American people about it today. Great Uncle Whosis fucked up--he wasn't sufficiently bloodthirsty, and wound up getting murdered for thinking he could move into territory populated by hostile Indians without first making sure a system of force and violence was close enough to protect him in his vicious exploitation and luxurious, rapacious living there in the one-room, dirt roofed house.

Somebody always loses in a war. Everytime somebody loses, they bitch and whine about how unfair it all is, and how the winners are monsters, etc. The United States is getting to the point now where there are very few nations that could take us in a straight-up fight. I'm sure we'll lose thousands to some terrorist bullshit. The whining and accusations and outraged sensibilities are all part of a "strategy of the powerless." North Vietnam did an EXCELLENT job of bringing the Vietnam War to a close politically. I consider myself very fortunate that the U.S. Government did not imprison all us war protesters, or worse. I was an immature idiot for protesting the Vietnam War, and upon retrospect, realize now that I was solidly duped by the Communists. Nobody's fault but my own. I had been warned repeatedly, but I didn't believe the people warning me, because I was 17 years old and knew everything.

Anybody who hates the U.S. and despises the life we live here so much is free to live elsewhere. "Beautiful Africa" awaits you, along with malaria, tuberculosis and river blindness, not to mention good, old-fashioned genocidal tribal murders where hundreds of men, women and children are hacked to death with machetes, shovels and axes, or suffer deliberate amputations of hands, blindings, etc., etc. Last one of these I read about happened in Congo. I wouldn't go there. Why not try Nigeria? They have one of the longest-running civil wars going on the entire continent. You don't need to worry about getting shot there, though. The people have no right to own firearms, so the only people with guns are the Army, the police, and the tribal killers, oh, I mean "militias." (In the newspaper any group of armed murderers is now a "militia.")

Or South America. How about Columbia? Oh, wait. Every time somebody goes down there to go fishing, they seem to get kidnapped. You don't want to be held for month for ransom for being such a priveleged, pampered Americano, do you? If you don't, then you must just be a Yanqui imperialist who doesn't understand the historical dialectic of kidnapping tourists and holding them for thousands of dollars ransom. And that's the police in Columbia, never mind the narco-guerrillas.

Yes, the U.S. sucks. We are so awful, for wanting to just live a normal life. People all over the world are convinced that we are the cause of all their troubles, or at least many of them seem to be. Frankly, other than the fact that we own too many cars, I don't see that. The poorest, most uneducated kid in America wants to own a car. Rich folks own cars. Everybody owns cars. They all burn petroleum, and I'd be happier if we didn't have so many car owners. Of course, I'd still own one, if I could afford it. But nobody else, so I could drive around without all the traffic jams. That would be great, don't you think? I do.

I'm free to not own a car, and in fact, there were periods of my life when I didn't own one, but not owning a car in a town like Houston SUUUUCKS. But I still could have done it, if I really wanted to. Could have ridden the bus. Bicycled. Whatever. The only problem is that public transportation sucks, even in a town with good public transport, like San Francisco, because of the other people riding it with you, who tend to act like jackasses for no particular reason.

We live in a world of people who choose to not respect the rights of others. Everybody justifies it for themselves, but bitches when somebody else does it. The world seems to be filled with selfish, self-centered, "Me-Firsters." Life's a bitch, oh well. Either get some power, or be prepared to be shoved around by life.

I learned this lesson in Marine Corps Boot Camp. I was still sort of thinking like a libertarian socialist when I went in. About the second day I came to the realization that I was "in for years," and I had a choice---either make rank quickly, or be on the receiving end for years. It was a very illuminating moment. I made sergeant in twenty-two months. The day I made corporal was the sweetest, though. I was now an NCO--no more details, no more scrubbing the shitters, no more picking up cigarette butts. You get a choice in life. "Do as thou wilt." The flip side of that is "Fuck with people at your own risk." Now I've got to go to work so I can be a big old exploiter of poor indigenous peoples all over the globe by driving my car. Maybe I'll take the bus. Nah.

SleepAnDream

04-21-2003, 05:09 PM

what he said. semper.

Esai

04-21-2003, 08:22 PM

Kabar, you are entitled to your opinion, but like I mentioned several times, Indian genocide is NOT my or anyone else's opinion, ITS A HISTORICAL FACT! Please read up thoroughly on US History before you open your mouth homie. And in regard to your ancestor story, that was their fault. My great grandfather wasnt moving into anyone's land illegally, he was chillin in New Mexico where my family had been for hundreds of years. Your poor family had probably been misinformed about Native hostility, so blame the US government, not the tribe who experienced a straight out robbery of their land. Also, if this "war" with the indians was so justifiable, why doesnt our classroom history books thoroughly account for them. US wars with native tribes lasted several centuries, and was actually several dozen wars. These wars cost the US a large portion of their wealth, their citizens, and changed the psyche of all americans forever. The murder of white settlers by indians also endedin the 1800's, the US government still outright robs and steals from indian tribes to this day, in fact the Bush cabinet overturned a agreement to leave sacred mountains in Arizona untouched, siding for a mining company over several local tribes and legal documentation. Many cases like these are simply disregarded and ignored by anglo american courts. You didnt address the various facts I previously posted in favor of some individual story that has no basis as proof that the US's behavior was and is justifiable, could that be because your ideologies on this matter are not justifiable using logic? One of the definitions of cognitive dissonance is the act of ignoring logic reason and credible facts to justify one's ideas, beliefs, and lifestyle. In psychology we learn that cognitive dissonance is a mental tool people use to justify the unjustifiablei.e. US historical actions and the current world economic system. Read my last post and answer my facts with other relevant and IMPORTANT facts, not some story about your protesting vietnam or a biker brawl you saw.

Esai

04-21-2003, 08:31 PM

PS. Although I personally have no respect for your actual position on this issue, i do respect your right to an opinion. I am in no way trying to censor you, but anytime I see or hear that bullshit I'm gonna correct it to the best of my ability. Anything less would be disrespect to my ancestry, culture, and myself.

Esai

04-21-2003, 08:40 PM

Ps, Although I have no respect for your actual opinion, I respect your righ to an opinion and am in no way trying to censor you or shut you up. But evry time I see or hear that bullshit Im gonna correct it to the best of my ability. Have a good day Kabar and thanks for the conversating.

Smart

04-22-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Europe
^^
What the hell are you talking about?

oh, I'm sorry... I think I know...

He's complaining about his own inability to reconize the single most obvious fact. That being, you don't jump into a thread that's 5 pages long about the war and start dropping names and discussing why 'kids that bomb the tube are all that'...

In Channel 0, no less...

And I think it may be time for me to point out that I censor whatever the fuck I want and whatever Mr.Raven doesn't fucking want. I don't censor much, however...

imported_dirtysicks

04-22-2003, 01:30 AM

Listen to this Iraqi man abuse this anti-war cornball.

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m...?ID=282585&q=Hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=282585&q=Hi)

imported_dirtysicks

04-22-2003, 01:32 AM

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m...?ID=282585&q=Hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=282585&q=Hi)

imported_dirtysicks

04-22-2003, 01:35 AM

Its on this page..................
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/h1phopmusic.htm

Rectum

04-22-2003, 02:46 AM

RAZEAGAINST IS THE GAYEST most pitiful cocksucker in the history of 12oz

you represent what it means to be a CHUMP ,
you and your kind deserve a bullet in the head

Esai

04-22-2003, 03:10 AM

^^^
This coming from someone who named themself Rectum
How Rectarded.

KaBar

04-22-2003, 07:21 AM

Guy, I don't know what to tell you. You want me to take responsibility for a war fought over 100 years ago? Sorry, man, I am not responsible for the fact that the Indians got fucked, not then, and not today. Big Mountain can be just as sacred as they come, but if the Native Americans want to own and control it, they'd better buy it from whomever holds the title. I guess the Federal Government could seize control of it and make it a National Park, but I don't think that's what the Native Americans have in mind.

I'm a little puzzled as to whhat is is that you would have me do. Acknowledge that the Indians were erradicated during the Indian Wars? Yeah. They were. Since the Indians were just about the finest light horse cavalry in North America, they were damned hard to fight. But the U.S. Army commanders, being pragmatic men, just attacked them where they were vulnerable--in the villages---and slaughtered everybody in sight. Was it genocidal? Yeah, I guess so. Was it justified? I don't know. I've been through the Plains States a couple of times, and I'm really not too sure why they wanted them so bad. In any case, they did, and the Indians would have been wise to make a better assessment of how ruthless the U.S. Army was willing to be in order to win.

There was a tribe of Indians down here in Texas called the Karankawas, they lived along the Gulf Coast. Sometime after the first Spanish explorers got to Texas, the Karankawas were wiped out, every last man, woman and child. I doubt any of them survived. So far as I'm aware, there are no Karankawas, or any of their descendants living anywhere on the Texas Gulf Coast. Most likely, this is the fate that awaited all the Native American peoples unless they surrendered. It seems like a wise choice to me, but then I'm not a Native American.

And now we have strip malls and used car lots where once the buffalo roamed. Great trade, eh?

I worked with a couple of Umatillas up in Washington State. Except for the fact that they had really long hair (like middle-of-the-back long) they were just like everybody else. Drank a beer after work, drove pick-up trucks. Wore cowboy boots and blue jeans and snap-button shirts from Sears'. They were both welders, like me. Both of them were former Marines. Semper Fi.

T.T Boy

04-22-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
Or South America. How about Columbia? Oh, wait. Every time somebody goes down there to go fishing, they seem to get kidnapped. You don't want to be held for month for ransom for being such a priveleged, pampered Americano, do you? If you don't, then you must just be a Yanqui imperialist who doesn't understand the historical dialectic of kidnapping tourists and holding them for thousands of dollars ransom. And that's the police in Columbia, never mind the narco-guerrillas.

not true.
i lived with a columbian couple for months. this is all the media. there are militia guerillas in one area of columbia where no one goes. up in the mountains. other than that its a cool place where anyone is safe. so long as your not retarded.

KaBar

04-22-2003, 08:37 AM

http://www.urmia.org/docs/BBlightTravelUS.htm

Read the truth.

Esai

04-22-2003, 06:05 PM

Kabar, I dont want you to do a cartwheel for indians or anything. You had posted how the west was won fair and square, and like I said, If I see or hear that shit I'm gonna correct the misinformation. If I started downplaying the Nazi extermination I'm sure someone who is Jewish would correct me, and with good reason. Like Ive said many a time, the act of downplaying Indian genocide, and the history of any other people other than europeans for that matter, has a negative impact on nonwhite children. If someone was spewing out misinformation about the right to bear arms, im sure you'd correct them. Maybe you could learn a thing or 2 if you read about the beliefs and history of our native cultures. I didnt seriously think about my native american blood until I went to college,before that I considered myself just anither chicano from LA, but the history and beliefs of my people have helped me to gain a better sense of who and what I am, and my place in the world. Either way, It was entertaining to discuss this subject with you, thanks for the conversating and no hard feelings buddy.

KaBar

04-26-2003, 07:44 AM

I talked plenty of shit about the poor, oppressed Third World people back before I had been to the Third World. And if I was uneducated (actually, that's not really true, I have two 2-year degrees, but no 4-year degree) then my ability to write this well (insert modest pride) would be all the more remarkable.

Israel is only just a little bit more preferable to the likes of their adversaries. They have plenty for which to answer.

Who doesn't? The world is a cruel ass place. Deal with it.

Smart

04-26-2003, 08:06 AM

Whom then, do I call educated?

First, those who manage the circumstances which they encounter day by day and who possess a judgement which is accurate in meeting occasions as they arise and rarely miss the expedient course of action; next, those who are decent and honorable in their intercourse with all men, bearing easily and good naturedly what is unpleasant or offensive in others, and being themselves as agreeable and reasonable to their associates as it is humanly possible to be; furthermore, those who hold their pleasures always under control and are not unduly overcome by their misfortunes, bearing up under them bravely and in a manner worthy of our common nature; finally, and most important of all, those who are not spoiled by their successes and who do not desert their true selves, but hold their ground steadfastly as wise and sober-minded men, rejoicing no more in the good things which have come to them through chance than in those which their own nature and intelligence are theirs since birth.

Those who have a character which is in accord, not with one of these things, but with all of them-- these I maintain are educated and whole men, possessed of all the virtues of man.

-Socrates

ctrl+alt+del

04-26-2003, 09:03 AM

[img]http://www.ltpage.com/captures/APPLAUSE.jpg'>

excellent, quite possibly the best stuff ive read on 12oz ever. that one gets printed out. and your point comes across pretty well too. I only hope that when my times winds down, i can read that and call myself an educated man.

Poop Man Bob

04-26-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by ctrl+alt+del
[img]http://www.ltpage.com/captures/APPLAUSE.jpg'>

excellent, quite possibly the best stuff ive read on 12oz ever. that one gets printed out. and your point comes across pretty well too. I only hope that when my times winds down, i can read that and call myself an educated man.

If you're talking about Smart, that was a Socrates quote ... not a Smart original.

metallix

04-27-2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by KaBar
You have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your position. I have relatives (well, distant relatives) who were murdered by Indians for the crime of farming corn, raising chickens and living in a dugout house on the side of a hill in north Texas. So what? You don't see me going around blaming Native American people about it today. Great Uncle Whosis fucked up--he wasn't sufficiently bloodthirsty, and wound up getting murdered for thinking he could move into territory populated by hostile Indians without first making sure a system of force and violence was close enough to protect him in his vicious exploitation and luxurious, rapacious living there in the one-room, dirt roofed house.

Somebody always loses in a war. Everytime somebody loses, they bitch and whine about how unfair it all is, and how the winners are monsters, etc. The United States is getting to the point now where there are very few nations that could take us in a straight-up fight. I'm sure we'll lose thousands to some terrorist bullshit. The whining and accusations and outraged sensibilities are all part of a "strategy of the powerless." North Vietnam did an EXCELLENT job of bringing the Vietnam War to a close politically. I consider myself very fortunate that the U.S. Government did not imprison all us war protesters, or worse. I was an immature idiot for protesting the Vietnam War, and upon retrospect, realize now that I was solidly duped by the Communists. Nobody's fault but my own. I had been warned repeatedly, but I didn't believe the people warning me, because I was 17 years old and knew everything.

Anybody who hates the U.S. and despises the life we live here so much is free to live elsewhere. "Beautiful Africa" awaits you, along with malaria, tuberculosis and river blindness, not to mention good, old-fashioned genocidal tribal murders where hundreds of men, women and children are hacked to death with machetes, shovels and axes, or suffer deliberate amputations of hands, blindings, etc., etc. Last one of these I read about happened in Congo. I wouldn't go there. Why not try Nigeria? They have one of the longest-running civil wars going on the entire continent. You don't need to worry about getting shot there, though. The people have no right to own firearms, so the only people with guns are the Army, the police, and the tribal killers, oh, I mean "militias." (In the newspaper any group of armed murderers is now a "militia.")

Or South America. How about Columbia? Oh, wait. Every time somebody goes down there to go fishing, they seem to get kidnapped. You don't want to be held for month for ransom for being such a priveleged, pampered Americano, do you? If you don't, then you must just be a Yanqui imperialist who doesn't understand the historical dialectic of kidnapping tourists and holding them for thousands of dollars ransom. And that's the police in Columbia, never mind the narco-guerrillas.

Yes, the U.S. sucks. We are so awful, for wanting to just live a normal life. People all over the world are convinced that we are the cause of all their troubles, or at least many of them seem to be. Frankly, other than the fact that we own too many cars, I don't see that. The poorest, most uneducated kid in America wants to own a car. Rich folks own cars. Everybody owns cars. They all burn petroleum, and I'd be happier if we didn't have so many car owners. Of course, I'd still own one, if I could afford it. But nobody else, so I could drive around without all the traffic jams. That would be great, don't you think? I do.

I'm free to not own a car, and in fact, there were periods of my life when I didn't own one, but not owning a car in a town like Houston SUUUUCKS. But I still could have done it, if I really wanted to. Could have ridden the bus. Bicycled. Whatever. The only problem is that public transportation sucks, even in a town with good public transport, like San Francisco, because of the other people riding it with you, who tend to act like jackasses for no particular reason.

We live in a world of people who choose to not respect the rights of others. Everybody justifies it for themselves, but bitches when somebody else does it. The world seems to be filled with selfish, self-centered, "Me-Firsters." Life's a bitch, oh well. Either get some power, or be prepared to be shoved around by life.

I learned this lesson in Marine Corps Boot Camp. I was still sort of thinking like a libertarian socialist when I went in. About the second day I came to the realization that I was "in for years," and I had a choice---either make rank quickly, or be on the receiving end for years. It was a very illuminating moment. I made sergeant in twenty-two months. The day I made corporal was the sweetest, though. I was now an NCO--no more details, no more scrubbing the shitters, no more picking up cigarette butts. You get a choice in life. "Do as thou wilt." The flip side of that is "Fuck with people at your own risk." Now I've got to go to work so I can be a big old exploiter of poor indigenous peoples all over the globe by driving my car. Maybe I'll take the bus. Nah.

thats fucken great. quotes like that make me wanna join the marines , it sounds so much like fucken army propaganda though...