Israel Grounds Pilots Who Refused Mission

[mental invalid]

Israel Grounds Pilots Who Refused Mission



By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israel on Thursday temporarily grounded reserve air force pilots who — in an unprecedented protest — condemned airstrikes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "immoral" and refused to fly such sorties.


The declaration by 27 pilots, including nine on active duty, was widely criticized in Israel as subversive at a time of war, but it also revived a flagging debate on the ethics of Israel's three-year war on Palestinian militants.


The protest struck a nerve because many Israelis believe their military has higher moral standards than that of their neighbors, and that other countries would have been much more ruthless.


The military is also seen as an institution that binds the fractious nation; Israelis get jittery at signs of cracks in the ranks. The air force in particular is considered key to Israel's survival, and pilots are held in the highest regard. Critics also say such talk gives ammunition to Israel's enemies.


Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the rebel pilots would be dealt with swiftly.


"Everyone can express his opinion, but it is unacceptable that a group of people in the military would interfere in a subject that does not apply to them," he told Israel TV.


The air force quickly tried to contain the damage. Commander Maj. Gen. Dan Halutz said the nine active pilots, grounded for now, could face suspension and perhaps military jail if they don't retract.


He said the rebels are a tiny minority among thousands of pilots. Hundreds of pilots began circulating declarations Thursday that expressed support for their commanders.


The protesters came under fire for mixing their moral dilemma with political opinion — their declaration said the continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip corrupts society.


Even moderate Israelis said this is a mistake, because it could set a precedent. "When the time comes, say, to remove settlers from their homes, other people in the army or in the air force will say they don't want to obey these orders in the same way," said Col. Uri Dromi, an air force reservist.


Veteran journalist Dan Margalit wrote in a front-page commentary in the Maariv daily that the pilots abused their exalted standing.


"If their idea is accepted, Ahmed Yassin and his compatriots in the Hamas leadership will be able to plan the next murder of Jewish children on a Jerusalem bus without interference," Margalit wrote, referring to an August bus bombing that killed 23 people, six of them children.


Only veteran leaders of Israel's dovish left, including Yossi Sarid and Shulamit Aloni of the Meretz party, defended the pilots.


Several hundred Israelis have refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza. There have been protests such as last weekend's Tel Aviv rally in which several thousand called for ending the occupation. But no major anti-war movement has emerged during the current fighting with the Palestinians, and most Israelis support the military's actions.


The group of 27 is informally led by Brig. Gen. Yiftah Spector, a highly decorated retired pilot who, according to Israeli media, took part in the bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.


In their petition, the pilots said airstrikes on crowded Palestinian areas are "illegal and immoral."


In three years of fighting, Israeli pilots have carried out hundreds of airstrikes, targeting Palestinian police installations and weapons workshops of militants. The most controversial involve targeted killings in which helicopters — and sometimes warplanes — fire rockets and bombs at cars and homes of Palestinian militants.



Some 140 wanted Palestinians have died in targeted raids, according to Palestinian medical officials, though the figure also includes those killed resisting arrest. More than 100 bystanders have also died, they said.

The Israeli public, traumatized by a Palestinian suicide bombing campaign that has killed hundreds since September 2000, largely supports the targeted killings.

A watershed for some pilots was last year's attack on Salah Shehadeh, leader of the Hamas military wing. A one-ton bomb killed Shehadeh, an assistant and 14 civilians, nine of them children. Halutz, the air force commander, had said he felt the bombing was morally correct.

In response to last month's Jerusalem bombing, Israel accelerated targeted attacks, killing 13 Hamas members and six bystanders in nearly a dozen airstrikes in Gaza City.

One of the 27 pilots, identified only as Capt. Alon, told the Yediot Ahronot daily he was now ashamed to be a member of the air force. "It's an organization that has no qualms about dropping bombs ... on the densest neighborhoods in the world ...," he was quoted as saying.

Brig. Gen. Eliezer Shakedi, a senior air force official, said great efforts are made to keep Palestinian civilians from harm, and that some missions were aborted if the risk to innocents was too high.

It was the first time pilots have come out openly against air force policy. In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, some expressed reservations about bombing cities and refugee camps but did not go public.

[mental invalid]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in...ideast_conflict (http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=mideast_conflict)

[--zeSto--]

you know what allways kills me....

no... not missles.

the fact that the story of David and Goliath is part of
Hebrew learning but Isreal cant seem to actually understand it.

[mental invalid]

no....not missles



hahahaha.....


yeah seriously......its just such an ugly situation.......just chaos

[--zeSto--]

the thing that really kills me ( even more than the missles!)
is the living conditions in Palestine. A friend was there and he
saw they way some people live. There's mud brick housing with
open sewers (ditches) running in front of every house.

Now this isn't like Lybia or Somalia where people grew up in these
conditions and dont know any better. These are men who had normal
houses and some level of comfort before the occupation. Take away
everything that a man has and he will act like an animal.

[mental invalid]

i hear you man.....its fucking wrong, and now they wanna build a wall for security purposes....this will only cause more violence....


in the same way, what do you do if your israel? arafat is a joke...

[im not witty]

Those pilots have balls. im glad though, im sick of hearing my jewish roomate spout bullshit he learned as a child about palestinians, and refusing to see the issue from the other side. I always love to see jews protest against israel.

[Tbious One]

Well, it IS just chaos.
Each side get fucked up.
But just to add - the Palastinians terror leaders get civilians around them to make it "morally incorrect"...
Its not that people just stand there.


Though both sides are fucked up:(

[mental invalid]

are you really in israel man??

[im not witty]

"ill fight a tank with a shank, and thats my fucking word"

[Tbious One]

Yes:rolleyes:

[--zeSto--]

can you believe he won the nobel peace prize?

he sure isn't acting like it these days.
As much as I'm not about the Isreali policies,
they do have a very hard time making anything stick
with Arafat as a point person on the other side of the table.

here's an interesting chart...

http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/s.../stats_page.cfm (http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm)

[Tbious One]

If there is one thing that really bothers me about most Israelis that they are so full of shit.
The jewish ppl were supposed to be on of the nations who got the most racism in the past and still many of them talk about how Nazi's were stupid and sick and then act kinda similar towards the Arabs.
Im not saying Israel is like the Nazi's at all.
But a lot of youth are talking like that and also older ppl.
Really drives me nuts and some of it is because of our "fabulous" rappers.

Anywho, near my town we have this most Arabic village which really shows how muslims, jews and christians can live together in peace.
Its really nice and you can really see how each culture affects the other.

[mental invalid]

so whats the general consensus over there TB??


i mean all i get is our ass backward media spin on it....


what is the general feeling over there???

fabulous rappers???

[Tbious One]

lol.
They are like fachist media toys rappers.
Anywho, most Israelis are all about Self Pride.
They want to see only half of the picture.
But actually its the otherway around in Europe and sometimes in the states.
I think its also because our speakers for the media around the world are the worst.
The Palestinians have people who graduated Oxford Uni. with good english and whom are qualified to talk in the media.
Most of our speakers, in my opinion, are either army ppl or stupid politicians. In most cases they all have terrible english (including grammer,accent and vocabulary).

Anywho, our economic situation is REALLY BAD so a lot of ppl are also concerned about that...

What are the opinions about this in the states or wherever you are from:cool:

[mental invalid]

id say its sorta mixed....


must conservatives and christian right could care less and are all about israel....as are most of the politicians.....the jewish vote being a major factor...media seems to take a israel stance....a few organizations were trying to change the lexicon to homicide bombers...

but given the current climate in the states in regards to islam and arabs, more probably lean towards israel....

i think alot of people shy away from taking a hard stance due to fear of being labeled anti-semetic....

some of the liberal intelligencia are very anti israel


in general i think most of us just look at it as brawling siblings who need to get along.....



the jews arent going nowhere, and the arabs arent either....

[Poop Man Bob]

http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english/

Address:

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PO Box 6953, Jerusalem 91068,
Israel

Telephone: 972.2.6250271



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[Tbious One]

Yeah thats true.

The situation is REALLY fucked up.
And there is a LOT of brainwashing going on.
And in Europe is well.
Most of the Euro media is really Anti Israel...

[--zeSto--]

Originally posted by mental invalid
...media seems to take a israel stance....

where's the 'understatements' thread?

The average news outlet is scared shitless of being labeled
anti-semetic when there's a huge difference between that
and being anti-Isreali Policy. HUGE difference. (I dont want to end up in the understatment thread)

[im not witty]

^egggggggsactly. and no one seems to understand this at all. especially my jewish roomate. surprise surprise.

[mental invalid]

"Everyone can express his opinion, but it is unacceptable that a group of people in the military would interfere in a subject that does not apply to them," he told Israel TV.


um right, i mean seriously mr. sharon, they only have to drop the bombs on people....they should be detached from such an act as much as you are...after all the subject of innocent people being killed by their bombs is none of their business.....


(vile sarcasm)

[Tbious One]

Originally posted by im not witty
^egggggggsactly. and no one seems to understand this at all. especially my jewish roomate. surprise surprise.

Well, you have to understand that most of the jewish people parents
lived with a feeling (which was true at that time and sometime at this time) that most of the people are against them.
The parents told the kids the same, hopefully to keep them strong and all and to be united, so its really hard to argue with jews:lol:

'Cause you have to try and understand how it was living in Europe in the beginning of the 20th century.
Imagine all of the people around you would say that you are not even a human being and all.
So those ppl teached their kids that its not true and what most ppl say about them isn't true and it passes away for one genaration to the next...

Hope I cleard that out,
and sorry for my english:o

[Pistol]

If they wanted to take a stand in the first place they shoulda left when it was time for the mandatory service.

Once your in the service you disobey orders and get sent to the brig for a court martial. Simple as that. Someone else drops bombs.

[--zeSto--]

The wars of the future will be fought by giant robots.
It will be your duty to build and maintain those robots.

[!@#$%]

in the past few years the israel/palestine situation has gotten my rapt attention..

i've tried to learn as much about it as possible, although i know i've only scratched the surface.

i have come around to the view that american support of the isreali occupation of palestine is a terrible position..i agree less and less with the isreali position all the time (helped even less by ariel sharon)..it disgusts me that so many billions of dollars in military aid is poured into that country

the use of that aid money must therefore be sanctioned by our governement.
so what about the innocent palestinian lives??

it's interesting that the air force can see thesae points..i'm glad those pilots had the balls to take a stand against what is obviously an immoral position..how are these strikes any better than a suicide bombing?

i started to read 'A Peace to End All Peace' a few weeks ago..
about the fall of the ottoman empire and its subsequent destruction and dviision by the allies post ww1

suffice it to say that not every american supports israeli occupation of palestine
it's enlightening

[mental invalid]

i dont think anyone denies that fact pistol.....

[im not witty]

tbious-- i do understand that. its sometimes blatantly obvious that my roomate is just regurgitating things that he heard as a child in temple. he's constantly just saying things like fuck it just kill all the palestinians, theyre evil etc ..they are raised to hate and kill us/ (as if jews arent raised to hate them the same way, at least in his situation)

and its not like hes even set foot in these places, hes just parroting what hes been told. its like talking to a brick wall.

[--zeSto--]

once again...

12oz and theOnion (http://www.theonion.com/3937/wdyt.html) are having some kind of mind-meld
Possibly of the vulcan persuaion

[Tbious One]

Originally posted by im not witty
tbious-- i do understand that. its sometimes blatantly obvious that my roomate is just regurgitating things that he heard as a child in temple. he's constantly just saying things like fuck it just kill all the palestinians, theyre evil etc ..they are raised to hate and kill us/ (as if jews arent raised to hate them the same way, at least in his situation)

and its not like hes even set foot in these places, hes just parroting what hes been told. its like talking to a brick wall.

Believe me I know what you mean,
there are so many people like that here as well...

Brain Washing is the ugliest thing someone can do.
Palestinians kids (just an example) are going instead of school to "army camps" where ppl pour jews blood over eachother and bath in it. They are training 8 year olds to shoot in an AK 47.... TERRIBLE.
There was this Israeli summer camp that taught kids how to kill arabs and all...
But its not just a minor problem. LARGE numbers of the public believes in such values.
Its just a situation with no salution...

Listening to the Bush Babees.
Tbious:dazed:

[mental invalid]

my boy who is jewish has mixed feeling about the whole thing, but he did bring up one really good question....


"why are there no palestinians protesting against viloence?"



i would like to know this myself.......

[im not witty]

i think its more why dont we hear about palestinians protesting. im not saying that i KNOW that they are protesting, but i think its more likely that our media ignores it.

[Tbious One]

Even not being a palestinian I can still answer this one.
Some ARE against violence and some protest..
But most of them are Israeli Arabs.
And some palestinians are just afraid of the terrorists.
Its not like they give a fuck about shooting their own ppl. Hell, they took and still take money that was supposed to be used in order to fix the housing for weaponry and palaces to they palestinians leaders.

[GucciCondom]

fuckin foreigners. :rolleyes:

[im not witty]

and i dont mean to come off like im all pro palestine and cant see both sides. i dont think anybody should be blowing anyone up. part of me says if palestinians just stopped bombing places, and just got thier asses handed to them and kind of took it in the face like MLK/pacifist style, then the world would wake up to thier persecution and instead of seeing them as murderers, see them as a people who are fighting back, not just fighting.

but then part of me thinks, if they stopped all insurrection, then the biased media would just ignore the story all together and they would continue to get fucked up.

i dunno. im certainly no expert.

[!@#$%]

human beings are prone to solving problems with violence.
people aren't always happy 'coexisting'

they want to dominate.

that's why peace doesn't look like it's going to work, now.
there seem to be too many people [in leadership positions] who are in favor of violence as a band-aid solution..
an act, then retaliation.
a never-ending cycle.
because for too many, it's easier than finding a permanent peace.
too many concessions, not enough spoils

come on, the u.s. is suffering its own cycle of violence, generally played out in innercities across the nation daily..
people can't help themselves.
they can't suck up the shit they've been through and deal long enough for a cease fire.

but what do i know?

[PedroHammers]

Originally posted by Tbious One
Yeah thats true.

The situation is REALLY fucked up.
And there is a LOT of brainwashing going on.
And in Europe is well.
Most of the Euro media is really Anti Israel...

i would not go as far as saying that the Euro media is Anti Israel.
Specifically, I am refering to German and Austrian news networks, and private channels, ARTE, ORF and SAT1,2,3) all must walk very fine lines when dealing with the aforementioned issues because of horendous acts fifty years ago.

Growing up in the States and now living abroad i find that the media here tends to give a fair, balanced push on both sides. They tend to broadcast unbiasly both sides which is refreshing considering the news available back home. ( i am talking about the poor folks that get their info from NY Post, NY Daily News and Fox, CNN etc.)

Essentially, I commend the pilots that refused to partake in the mission. Yes, they are in the military, yes they disobeyed orders, but, they followed their emotions and made their own decisions on the matter and there is nothing wrong with that or the reason for which they did it.

Bottom line, the violence must stop.

[metallix]

let them kill each other ..

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by mental invalid

"why are there no palestinians protesting against viloence?"

i would like to know this myself.......

i'm really not in a 'word things properly' phase so bare with me...I understand that both sides hold responsibilty..but still palestine is the opressed part while Israel is the thief and murderer in this case...It makes me wonder how we talk about anti-israel media coverage when they pull that shit for so many years in full support...the violence will end when palestinians get whats theirs....When we talk about arafat being a joke we must always remember what Sharon is, what Sharon does...that he got re-elected and that Perez called him out some days ago to stop this madness he got into.

I dont wanna sound disrespectfull to the israelis that died, nor to support terror...still, eachone plays with the cards he's given.

In my opinion, Jews suffer from the victim/victimizer syndrome...they feel the wicked need to do the shame shit others did to them...I refuse to accept the humanitarian supersensitive films about the holocaust that pop every year while, as an official nation they show no practice of a deep understanding of the issue and how similar tragedies can be avoided.

[Cracked Ass]

Short version, the US needs a friend in petroleum land, or the Arabs will have all that black gold under the sand. Obese Americans need to drive their fat SUVs to McD's for their super-size freedom fries.
Wow, I sorta rapped there.
Sometimes I walk in the woods, or even just look at pictures of the more sparsely inhabited areas of the world, including rural US places, and I think: there's plenty of room here for either every Israeli, or every Palestinian. If one side or the other would just...leave altogether, there would no longer be the need for any violence. But they both insist on having the same plot of land - and a fairly barren, unattractive plot at that. The simple fact of proximity + stubbornness insures the death of thousands of people. Nobody will leave. They would rather kill and die than find quieter land. Another stupid twist on the "property is more important than people" concept that graffiti writers face.
Humans are dumb. My opinion of them drops almost daily. A close look at how I'm conducting my life proves that I'm no exception though. Struggle for answers, give up, paint some trains, eat, spank it, go to bed, sleep, wake up, struggle for answers.

[seeking]

[img]http://mywebpage.netscape.com/hellsblownkisses/israel.jpg'>
one leader won a noble peace prize and the other is a convicted war criminal.

as c+c music factory said, 'things that make you go hmmmmm'

[mr.VIRS]

you know you cant choose sides just from wut you here/see on the news ....
the palestinens take care of all you ppl to see wut we do to them but you havent seen wut they have done to us !you call our (israelis) behavior inhumanic (if thats how i write it)?
is it humanic to shoot a 10 months old girl in the head with a sinpper riffel? hell no
i m not going to expand words just give you a link to a site and you all tell me if they are trustable partners to peace
here are the ppl you stand up for (http://rotter.net/israel/)
and here is the pic of the 10 m infent who was killed
[img]http://rotter.net/israel/64.jpg'>
now tell me who isnt humanic?
btw we doze their houses only after a suciside bomber kills him self so we kill his house

[MagatsuTaito]

Q. Whats funnier than a dead baby?

A.A dead israeli baby

[Dick Quickwood]

Originally posted by mr.VIRS


haha, arent you the kid who tried to get me to send you a white paint marker in the mail, but were too cheap to pay me in advance ?

[mr.VIRS]

yeah thats me =) but i got it already

[im not witty]

first of all, if i took sides by watching the news, id certainly be for israel, they are always the victim on the news. always. i assure you that the people who seem pro palestine on this site are the minority in this country.


id show you pictures of dead palestinians but we'd have to scrape them out of tank treads first. the point is that there is violence on both sides. terrible terrible violence, but all you hear on the news is palestinians are terrorists blah blah blah. you think there arent just as many dead palestinian kids?

[seeking]

one dude shoots a baby with a sniper rifle, and its a fucking national tragedy. a whole country of people are kicked off their land and thrown in cages, then systematically killed whenever its deemed 'appropriate' and thats 'just'?
'suicide bombing' exists because without it, no one would pay any fucking attention to whats going on there. if we didnt constantly hear about the 'homicide bombings' the situation would not be spoke of, ever. not that im saying killing innocent people is right, im saying that occupying stolen land, incarcerating the previous inhabitants, and fucking whining to the world when they get pissed off about it, is not right. look at the completely ridiculous way you're treating the palestinians, even with the world watching. imagine how fucking insane it would be if there wasnt atleast a little bit of scrutiny.
'dont start none wont be none'. if palestinians werent treated like prisioners in their own country, they wouldnt be fucking blowing people up.
fuck israel. this is a perfect example of the 'hate that hate created' theory. your people were wronged, so now you'll wrong whoever you feel acceptable, because the world 'owes' you. bitch the world doesnt owe you shit. just as many russians, italians, gypsies, gays, addicts and disabled people were murdered by the nazi's, but do you motherfuckers EVER talk about that? no, becuase it would take away sympathy from your 'plight'. fuck your plight. and fuck the complete lack of regard for ttruth which with you've inflated the numbers of the halocaust. fuck trying to pass legislation that will put people in prison for not believing whatever you tell them is the truth, regardless of its sometimes complete and total lack of backing.* if you're not fighting for the freedom of every person regardless of their race or ethnicity, then you're fighting for the continuation of racial hatred. period, end of story.
we're all taught that jews are some how 'sacred' because of the attrocity that took place. so that gives you a blank check to fuck motherfuckers over? cause you were wronged? if my sister gets raped, can i run around killing people cause im mad about it?

i know this is neither a very well thought out, nor sensetively worded post, but im kind like 'fuck sensetive' when it comes to this topic. stop puttting people in cages, then bulldozing their houses and putting them in smaller cages, cause they're mad about it. fuck using the past as an excuse for the complete inhumanity with which you act now.

and finally as homeboy said, not only would he have to first scrape the baby from the tank treads, but we'd also have to dig it out of the rubble left by sidwinder missles.

seeks/fuck any country based on the propgation of hatred



*for about the first 50 years after ww2, israel claimed that roughly 4 million jews were killed at auschewitz. it wasnt until recently, when people (jewish people at that) started questioning the validity of that statement, and it was finally proven to be completely made up. the plaques that were placed around the site were even removed, and replaced with new ones, claiming a new figure of 1.5 million. attrocity still doesnt go far enough to explain what happend, but coompletely lying in the face of already efficent evidence, does little to raise sympathy further. this is just one example, but the total figures for all jews killed are widely disputed, not only by foreigners, but by a great number of (self hating of course) jews more interested in truth than sympathy.
also, two us senators recently introduced a bill (right at the height of the anti-iraq war no less) that would make revisionism (denying the holocaust took place) a felonious, prisionable offense.
it's ok that no one knows 10 million chinese, 100 million africans during the slave trade, a million indonesians, etc etc etc were killed, hell, its even ok to not know that 3 million italians, russians and gypsies died at the hands of the nazi's, but if you question for a second the validity of asraels claims, you're a felon.
fuck your thought police.


!@#$,
if you've got any suggestions for books, feel free.

[mental invalid]

yeah for the love of god, for every brutal flick of a dead jew, i can show you one for a dead palestinian...

ya see thats the fucking point.....its all tit for tat.....



and as far as my friends questions, i agree with both points made...the fact that 1. our media perhaps does not cover it 2. being the supressed people they do not want to protest against being the fatah...

however when does the normal citizen finally go "look, the bombs are not doing it, we need a different approach"

im looking for people on both sides to say that....


and on another topic, anyone ever heard of the zionist movement that wanted to settle in s.america......but were basically silenced by the jewish majority who wanted the holy land...their basic idea was why the fuck would you want to be in the mist of people that hate....lets buy an island and live the good life...


betcha island life looks good now...


i knew that freight would make a showing.....

[seeking]

how can you constantly remind people of how abused you are, when everything is good?

oh, and if dude wants to bring up dead baby pictures, lets start bringing up the several israeli mossad agents who have been found posing as islamic extremists, either planting bombs (as they did in a south american embassy) or organizing anti-israeli groups as they were found to be doing in palestine. you motherfuckers have been proven to kill your own people to sway public sentiment, beliving the good of the whole is worth the sacrifice of a few, and you want us to fucking cry you a river? bitch theres enough blood to make a river, save your tears.


(any reference to 'you' is a collective 'you' and not aimed at anyone in particular)

[MagatsuTaito]

how about that mugabe and his white apartheid in zimbabwe>

[mental invalid]

not exactly on subject, but fucked up......

then again......they did steal all the land......


another example of extreme ideas to solve problems......

[Dick Quickwood]

how did israel come about ?
maybe someone could reccomend me a book on the subject

[$360]

Originally posted by seeking

it's ok that no one knows 10 million chinese, 100 million africans during the slave trade, a million indonesians, etc etc etc were killed

dont forget the armenian genocide. look it up in youre high school history book to learn more...


oh wait, its not in there....nevermind then.

[Tbious One]

Dude you talk so much bullshit.
ITs easy to see that you know only what they want you to know.
Fuck.
6 Million jews were killed in the holaucost.
1 Million gypsies and less of other ppl which were killed MOSTLY during war and not in death camps.
There IS a sligt difference.

Cages?
WTF?
Do you know any palestinian from real life anyways?
I assume you don't.
Before the Intefada begun about 3 years ago everything was good.
They had good housing, they had work, they had money and food.
And you know who were the ones that lived in refugge houses?
The one that were brought by Egypt and Jorden which didn't wan't them.
When the terrorism begun Zhahal had to move them to the cityies in order to prevent terrorism. And that was before innocent kids were killed ("somehow" they were forced to stand around a terrorist because if they won't do it they will die. Yeah, they were there in order that the Israelis will look bad if a terrorist get killed...).
Do you thing most palestinians like this terror shit? BULLSHIT.
They fucking hate it. It destroyed their life.

And do you think they don't have RICH ones? Living on the money that was supposed to go to the people but instead some filthy leader wanted a castle so he used the money for it.

Israel is FAR from being right. But you only see it from one side.

And the palestinian leaders are the ones who want it to look like that.

Word.

*And I'm not saying the jews were the ones that were treated the worst. But comeone... Stop with the media bullshit about Israeli ppl...

[seeking]

well dude,im sure they wanted to put it in, but our history is so rich and bountiful as it is, that we already had to pack 400 years of slavery into 4 pages.

[seeking]

Originally posted by Tbious One
6 Million jews were killed in the holaucost.
1 Million gypsies and less of other ppl which were killed MOSTLY during war and not in death camps.
There IS a sligt difference.

Cages?
WTF?
Do you know any palestinian from real life anyways?
I assume you don't.
Before the Intefada begun about 3 years ago everything was good.
They had good housing, they had work, they had money and food.
Do you thing most palestinians like this terror shit? BULLSHIT.
They fucking hate it. It destroyed their life.

Israel is FAR from being right. But you only see it from one side.

*And I'm not saying the jews were the ones that were treated the worst. But comeone... Stop with the media bullshit about Israeli ppl...

6 million to 1? where are you're facts coming from on that one?
my ex's room mate was palestinian, we talked about it all the time.
everything was good? they were forcibly removed from their land, i would never call that 'good' even if the conditions are technicly 'acceptable' on paper. if someone came and kicked you and your family out of your house, and stuck you somplace you didnt want to be, im sure youd be a bit 'annoyed'.
did i ever say i supported 'terrorism'? quite the contrary, i just said i understood why it was being done.
are there or are there not palestinians living in large fenced in compounds? are they free to come and go as they please, or do they have a foreign government dictating their movement? a cage is a cage, be it 6x6 or 2miles square.
i dont only see itt from one side, i was supplying the side that 'mr. virs' did not.
'media bullshit about israeli people'? when did i talk about israeli people? im talking about the israeli government. i dont blame the people for the attrocities of their leaders, even if, like in germany, they follow their orders.

[BROWNer]

[img]http://in.yimg.com/xp/afp/20021103/021103154851.w44cugj80b.jpg'>


"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." --Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956

[$360]

Originally posted by seeking
well dude,im sure they wanted to put it in, but our history is so rich and bountiful as it is, that we already had to pack 400 years of slavery into 4 pages.

for real.:(

[Tbious One]

Ariel Sharon is a stupid racist...

And my facts are comming from the German Ministary that is.
Where is your ex-rommate from?
Actually I'm quite sure that most Palestinians that moved to the states moved probably in the 70's.
I know some palestinians and they liked things 3 years ago.
And its not like they are rich or were rich at any point.

Actually the West bank was offered to Jordan (which was under its control untill 73' if I'm not wrong) and Jordan refused to keep it.

And actually I'm sure most palestinians would like to live in peace with Israel. Atleast from the ones I have spoken to and all.
Its just some stupid fuck faced terrorists which tells them to kill jews because the religeon says so. And a kid which doesn't know how to read yet and is bery young (and also lives in a cage because of the war) thinks its what true.
But notice well that none of the "bigger" terrorists families has ever been in contact with frontal terror.
They know its too dangerous and they don't really believe in it. So they send their poor ppl to do it for them. How nice...

come on...

[BROWNer]

i don't know if anyone in this thread is aware of this,
but edward said died....here's a tribute with a load of
audio links to some of his perpectives on the whole
region: http://www.democracynow.org/static/said.shtml

[!@#$%]

this is the book i'm currently reading about the 'creation' of the modern middle east
[img]http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/bk_big/ARB13.GIF'>


another book i constantly recommend about u.s. foreign policy is killing hope..

www.killinghope.com (http://www.killinghope.com)

[BROWNer]

killing hope is a scary book.
i read a bit of that this summer, but didn't get to finish
becuz it was only a week loaner..apparently its hot
shit in my city right now.

ps-does anybody know/have anything to say about
the ARAB lobby in the states????? hmm?

[seeking]

tbious,
im not sure where exactly she was from, just know she grew up over there and was very active in the the political situation.

why do you keep insisting that 'most palestinians are against terrorism' as if any of us are implying that anyone is for it? but to say that suicide bombings are a result of palestinians 'hatred for jews' is ridiculous. it has everything to do with oppresion and little to do with religion.

[seeking]

Originally posted by Tbious One
Ariel Sharon is a stupid racist...


david duke is a 'stupid racist' sharon is a genocidal maniac.

[imported_Tesseract]

^That got elected by the Israelis for the second time...

[--zeSto--]

so as we all know....


The Middle East
is by far the most
inflamatory topic in
all of 12oz History.

[mental invalid]

on all boards that im on........

[Are2]

when alll attempts at meaningful convo fail..

Ahnuld

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by Are2
when alll attempts at meaningful convo fail..

Ahnuld

huh?

[--zeSto--]

Originally posted by Tesseract
huh?

yeah... what the ???

:confused:

[im not witty]

hey wait a second....

[seeking]

ahnuld = arnold (schwartze...)

[--zeSto--]

^ but what's he have to do with anything?

[BROWNer]

..the recall debates the other night...cryptic referencing

[im not witty]

id ask him, but he only makes very brief appearances

[Tbious One]

Originally posted by seeking

but to say that suicide bombings are a result of palestinians 'hatred for jews' is ridiculous.


I didn't say that.
Most of them don't really care about the jews.
But some extreme Muslim people are preaching against jews.
And religeon can be a dangerous thing mixed with opression and poor conditions...

Anywho,
today I was having a Rosh Hashana (jewish holiday for the jewish new year), and about 10 mins from where I was a terrorist shot a 5 month old baby and her father if I'm not wrong.

Kinda scary:rolleyes:

But anyhow,
the leaders are a bunch of intersentic fools which fucks the people:eek: