Iraq is a fucking mess right now.

[Poop Man Bob]

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/02/international/02cnd-blast.3.650.jpg'>
[i]Two suicide bombers blew themselves up at doors of a shrine in Baghdad, and a third detonated his bomb inside the shrine.


http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/02/international/02cnd-blast.2.large.jpg'>
[i]Iraqi men picked through the remains left from the multiple explosions outside the Khadamiya Mosque in Baghdad, Iraq

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/03/02/international/20040303_web_IRAQmap.gif'>
[i]Bombs and explosions ripped through Shiite Muslim religious ceremonies in Baghdad and the city of Karbala today.



Article from the NY Times (http://tinyurl.com/35pq7):

Blasts at Shiite Ceremonies in Iraq Kill at Least 143
By JOHN F. BURNS
and JEFFREY GETTLEMAN

Published: March 2, 2004


AGHDAD, Iraq, March 2 — Bombs and explosions ripped through Shiite Muslim religious ceremonies in Baghdad and the city of Karbala today, killing at least 143 people among the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who had flocked to ancient shrines to pray on one of their holiest days.

Streaks of blood and bits of flesh clung to the tiled walls and stone floors of the Imam Musa al-Khadam shrine in the Khadamiya district of Baghdad after two suicide bombers blew themselves up at its doors and a third detonated his bomb inside the shrine, according to witnesses and a militia guard at the shrine, Hussein Hamad.

As panicked pilgrims fled for an exit, a fourth suicide bomber blew himself up there, Mr. Hamad and other witnesses said.

"Hundreds of people were in the street, and it was a big mess," said one of the caretakers of the mosque, Saad Abdul-Zahara. "As soon as the explosion hit us everybody started running. The streets were full of bleeding women."

He added: "I saw the suicide bomber walk into the crowd, and then he blew himself up and just disappeared. It was terrifying. There was flesh flying, there were bodies flying."

He and other witnesses said grenades were thrown into the crowd from the windows of a nearby hotel. Witnesses also said that a man was dragged from a hotel across from the shrine and beaten by a mob.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, spokesman for the coalition forces, told a news conference here that the blasts killed at least 85 in Karbala and 58 at the Shiites' holiest Baghdad mosque.

Hospital officials said that a final death toll from the Khadamiya blast had been difficult to establish because many of the bodies were in pieces.

"I cannot count them," said a morgue attendant, Abdullah Hatam.

In the holy city of Karbala, about 50 miles south of Baghdad, at least five powerful blasts struck in the middle of crowds of pilgrims who had packed the streets and shrines for the Ashoura ceremony, when Shiite Muslims commemorate the martyrdom in 680 A.D. of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

At the scene of one of the blasts in Karbala, a New York Times contract photographer, Joao Silva, saw at least four corpses being removed. Casualties were also loaded onto trucks and carted away from the area, which was near a mosque on a side street.

There was some damage to nearby buildings but no deep crater on the ground, like those left by the impact of car bombs. "People told us mortars had landed among a group of people walking to the shrine," Mr. Silva said.

In Khadamiya, among the body parts taken to the morgue were two severed heads, which in the past have been among the signs of a suicide bombing.

Corpses of women in black veils and the long robes worn by Shiites were laid out in the morgue. Outside, frantic Iraqis slapped their cheeks in grief and anger, searching the chaos for missing friends or relatives.

"Tell me about Hussein — is he okay?" one man asked, approaching the Iraqis trying to get inside the hospital. "No, he is dead," another replied.

American military helicopers circled overhead at the shrine and the hospital.

Iraqis waited for word of those still unaccounted for, some doubled over in grief as it filtered out. "He's gone, he's dead," said one. Rough-hewn wood coffins were loaded onto pickup trucks.

At one point a hospital official emerged and read a list of the names of the bodies that had been identified "Adnan Khurdaya, Mohammad Hussein . . ."

Men wailed, flailing their fists in the air.

"We are here to pay our condolences to the dead!" chanted a procession of men carrying the black flags associated with the mourning rituals of Ashoura as they marched to the hospital. "We defy you, America and Israel."

American troops in Humvees, machine guns mounted on top, were positioned at the hospital complex. As they drove through the gates, the crowd of Iraqis parted sullenly , letting them pass, but some shouted curses and threats.

Thousands of Iraqis packed the streets surrounding the Khadamiya shrine, beating their chests and chanting prayers to Imam Hussein. Some men with whips and knives flagellated themselves, part of the ritual of Ashoura which is meant to unite pilgrims in a re-enactment of Imam Hussein's suffering.

After the attack at the Khadamiya shrine, an angry crowd estimated in the thousands marched to a nearby American base where they started pelting soldiers and tanks with stones. A witness, Ali Heider, said the soldiers opened fire and he saw at least two Iraqis in the crowd shot.

It was not immediately clear who was behind the apparently coordinated series of attacks. Insurgents have launched car bombs and suicide attacks on the American occupying force and the Iraqis who work with them.

The American-led coalition authority is planning to hand back sovereignty to Iraqis, but it is not clear what shape the caretaker government would take once in place after June 30, nor is it clear how such a government would rule in a country faced with violence and growing religious and ethnic differences.

Shortly after the attack in Khadamiya, survivors gathered the shoes and sandals of victims. One distraught man clawed through the piles until he found the small pink sandals of a child. He held them up.

"Look at what they are doing to our children!" he said.


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040302/capt.sge.pgn54.020304170051.photo00.default-266x384.jpg'>
[i]An Iraqi Shiite cleans a pool of blood at the site of an explosion at a mosque in the Baghdad neighborhood of Kazimyah. Almost 140 people were killed as Shiite Muslims came under attack in coordinated attacks in the cities of Karbala and Baghdad.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040302/capt.abl11903021544.iraq_abl119.jpg'>
[i]Moments after the attacks, Iraqis use a pushcart to remove from the scene victims of one of several bomb blasts which exploded in densely-occupied areas, during the holy day of Ashoura, a Shiite festival, in the holy city of Karbala, Iraq.

[WebsterUno]

hold it down cuzz!


:king: :mad:

[!@#$%]

more blood on dubya's hands.
this is just going to keep happening.



..from BBC

At least six explosions hit Karbala at about 1000 local time (0700GMT) aimed at the main mosque in the holy city.

The blasts sparked panic among the crowds who were able to observe Ashura - commemorating the death of Imam Hussein in 680 - freely for the first time in decades.

SHIA FESTIVAL: ASHURA
Annual Shia festival commemorating martyrdom of Imam Hussein
Hussein, grandson of Prophet Mohammad, killed at Karbala by army of Caliph Yazid in 680
Faithful strike themselves with chains and swords to atone for Hussein martyrdom
The murder 19 years earlier of Ali, Hussein's father, gave rise to the central schism in Islam between Sunni and Shia



People - bloodied, with limbs lost - were carried to ambulances on stretchers made from blankets and wooden carts.

"We were standing [next to the mosques] when we heard an explosion," said 18-year-old Tarar. "We saw flesh, arms, legs and more flesh. Then the ambulance came."


Confusion surrounded the cause of the blasts, with police officers running through the streets checking bins and boxes for more bombs.
Gen Kimmitt said later that there were reports of a mortar attack in Karbala, 80km (50 miles) south of Baghdad, as well as at least one suicide bomber.


The BBC's Caroline Hawley in Baghdad says the use of mortars - if confirmed - would be a new tactic for insurgents seeking to stir up sectarian tensions between Sunni and Shia Muslims.

Mortars had previously been used against coalition forces, but not Iraqi civilians.


Gen Kimmitt said three suicide bombers blew themselves up in Baghdad and a fourth was caught before detonating explosives.

Iraqi police reported they had arrested six people in connection with the attacks.


Violence had been feared but US and other coalition soldiers had left the immediate areas around the mosques to Iraqi security forces so as not to offend religious sensibilities.

In both cities, shock soon turned to anger and foreign civilians and soldiers were targeted.


But later, in active defiance of the attacks, pilgrims continued the last day of the Ashura rituals.

Religious ceremonies of the Shia Muslims - the majority group in Iraq but suppressed under the Sunni Muslim rule of Saddam Hussein - have been targeted before.


RIP

[SteveAustin]

I was just going to say...this is only the beginning. Iraq was a mess before. It is a mess now and it will only get worse. I don't even think the US leaving will help that much.

I'll never understand suicide bombers and killing for religious reasons.

[ERIZENO]

this is just so sad.

i hate what we are capable of doing to each other.

can i get off this sinking ship now ????? oh thats right no one can.

[seeking]

if saddam was still in power, none of these people would have died.
thank god we freed them from their oppressors.

[!@#$%]

Originally posted by SteveAustin

I'll never understand suicide bombers and killing for religious reasons.

how insane is it?
they are promised eternal paradise for blowing themselves and others to pieces.

of course i have no clue about after-death...
but my heart tells me there won't be a reward waiting for these mass murderers.
i wonder if their soul will realize what pain they inflicted.

i don't like the name 'suicide bomber' either.
they're 'homicide bombers'

[villain]

[img]http://img27.photobucket.com/albums/v82/agentarcana/waroniraqPg60.jpg'>


[img]http://img27.photobucket.com/albums/v82/agentarcana/waroniraqPg61.jpg'>

[villain]

^^^^ I agree with this guy

[SteveAustin]

Originally posted by !@#$%
i don't like the name 'suicide bomber' either.
they're 'homicide bombers'

good call. that phrase has now been forever altered in my vocabulary.

[metallix]

Originally posted by !@#$%

i don't like the name 'suicide bomber' either.
they're 'homicide bombers'

yeah well in reality they are neither. "a suicide/homicide bomber" is really a "strategic explosive delivery system"

[imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by seeking
if saddam was still in power, none of these people would have died.


I dunno about this statement...


This situation is so royally fucked I can't even begin to imagine how it can be fixed.

[Devilush]

imagine how long we're going to be in this situation.

now that thought scares me.

[adderall]

sad shit only getting sadder

[villain]

We can either force peace among these people like saddam did or we can give them a reason to live together peacefully in some kind of americanesque society. Which is what those pages from that book are talking about if you read that. People seem to forget that we have the same people living here in the US but without the same kinds of problems.

[!@#$%]

^ i don't agree.

while there are likely terrorists living in the u.s., our recent security situation has not been such that america is magnetizing Al-Qeada.
the irony is that there was no saddam-bin laden connection.

when we blew the infrastructure to pieces, then sent tons of troops in, we made Iraq a new american military base.

in case anyone hasn't noticed, it is in al-qaeda's sights to undermine any thing the u.s. is involved in..

it is their entire objective to destroy any potential progress in Iraq.

it isn't Iraqis who are responsible for this bloodshed.
it is terrorists, infilitrating the country to bring their jihad to america.
what an easy way to do it.
this is making the u.s. look so terrible in the eyes of the world as well.


...those are also not the same kinds of people in Iraq as in America.
america was made into a democracy BY THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA
NOT BY AN OCCUPYING POWER.

these are people who have lived in fear for the past 30 years, under a dictator installed by the u.s. government no less.
they are majority muslim, with serious divides along ethnic lines.
i don't think there are a ton of similarities here.
they also have borders that are under what protection?
who is entering Iraq with their own agenda.

it is never that cut-and-dry.

[KaBar2]

I keep promising myself I will stay OUT of these types of discussions, but I apparently just love the abuse.

I work with an enlightened Muslim African guy from Nigeria. He has lived in the U.S. about 14 years, but makes annual trips back to his parent's home to visit his family. He likes the lifestyle in America, and is subsidizing several young relatives who are attending school in various places (Nigeria and also in Europe.)

Whenever he and I discuss the situation in Africa or Iraq (Nigeria has a sort of "cold civil war" going on between Christians and Muslims) he always says the same thing:

"You don't understand the way the Muslim suicide bombers think because you are a Christian. You believe in fairness. You believe the world is perfectable, if only everyone could be educated, if they would just care about one another, if they would all work together for the common good. This is a CHRISTIAN way of thinking, even though you may not be a devout believer, it is the result of being born and raised in a Christian culture.
This way of thinking does not exist in countries like Nigeria. In Nigeria, the world is divided into two groups--those that have power and money, and those that are brutally oppressed. They don't want schools to be built, unless the schools are Muslim schools. They don't want churches to be built--the Christian religion encourages people to hope for a better life, to share, to care about other's suffering. Worst of all, it tells young women that they can be equal to men, something that is hateful to fundamentalist Muslims.
I understand perfectly why the suicide bombers attack American targets and Iraqis who work for a free Iraq--it is a demonstration of hopelessness. Their beliefs are obviously not relevant to the modern world--they are trying to compete in the 21st century with 16th century ideas. They hate the fact that they are losing, and there is no hope that their ideas will somehow be predominant.
The Americans cannot understand that. Here, people can start with nothing, as I did, and become rather wealthy. I would rather own a convenience store here than be a lawyer or professor in Nigeria. Life is BETTER here, and it cannot be denied, no matter how hard they try."

[villain]

[img]http://img27.photobucket.com/albums/v82/agentarcana/waroniraqPg49.jpg'>


You are right !@#$% there is absolutely NO Al Queda connection AND there has been foreign fighters in Iraq since the beginning of the war. In fact this is a golden opportunity for terrorists to attack america which is what many political analysts worth a shit have been saying from the beginning, the Osama Bin Laden has been trying to provoke a war between the west and Islam. And Bush fell right into the trap. So now we are stuck in this hopeless war that was only fought out of pride and greed in the first place. It was patently stupid of Bush to amass quite literally all of our military might in Kuwait before the war because that provided the perfect target for an Iraq that actually had WMD (which they don't.).
And you are right that the muslims here are different than the ones there. What I had meant was that they had the same ideology, but a different governmental structure which is what you said. So change the government there and the infrastructure and watch the people change as well. And you are right again that there ARE extremists here in america and I happen to know quite a few with enough ordinance to make 9-11 look like some kid was playing with matches. But notice they aren't taking action. Democracies strength is open debate. I think that we all here in america no matter how different we are cherish that right to open debate and we won't pursue violence until reason has been exhausted. Though bush is really pushing it let me tell you.

Tease: You have no reason. Stop being so damn violent. They aren't retaliating against the terrorists because nobody even knows who the terrorists are. And sometimes people even agree with the terrorists, even though they may not like them because many people over there have a common enemy in the US because of all the shit we've done to them. Do you want to resolve this in a civilized manner or are you going to drag out a hopeless war?

[Dr. Dazzle]

Just a bad idea from start to finish......

[!@#$%]

the real problem is in the past.
that's why we are so fucked.

the u.s. supported and trained bin Laden to fight against soviet u.s.s.r.
then we abandoned his country once it had given us what we wanted: victory over the commies


the u.s. installed and supported Saddam Hussein.
we liked him back in the day, i'm sure oil interests were very important to that relationship.
he stopped doing what we wanted.
we sent in the CIA to start a civil war, which IT DID.
then the u.s. ABANDONED the iraqis.
they were OBLITERATED by saddam.
part two of that story was after the Kuwait invasion.
Bush one wasn't willing to finish what he started, and more insurgent iraqis were slaughtered..

See a PATTERN developing here?

the u.s. has always had its own interests at heart, then when we get what we want, we abandon the rest of the job (as we're doing in afghanistan right now, again)

our war in iraq was not one of liberation.
it was revenge, spurned along by oil interests.
the iraqis aren't stupid.

when families are slaughtered during a war they didn't want, by an occupying power they don't like, more terrorists are CREATED.

read what Iraqis have to say about all this.
who can be surprised that the people hate an occupation.
imagine for minute what that would be like here and how our own citizens would respond to such treatment.

yes, lets be real.
the united states, with its own fucked foreign policy decisions, is at the very least partly responsible for the inception and mission of Al-Qaeda.

[villain]

Originally posted by KaBar2
I keep promising myself I will stay OUT of these types of discussions, but I apparently just love the abuse.

I work with an enlightened Muslim African guy from Nigeria. He has lived in the U.S. about 14 years, but makes annual trips back to his parent's home to visit his family. He likes the lifestyle in America, and is subsidizing several young relatives who are attending school in various places (Nigeria and also in Europe.)

Whenever he and I discuss the situation in Africa or Iraq (Nigeria has a sort of "cold civil war" going on between Christians and Muslims) he always says the same thing:

"You don't understand the way the Muslim suicide bombers think because you are a Christian. You believe in fairness. You believe the world is perfectable, if only everyone could be educated, if they would just care about one another, if they would all work together for the common good. This is a CHRISTIAN way of thinking, even though you may not be a devout believer, it is the result of being born and raised in a Christian culture.
This way of thinking does not exist in countries like Nigeria. In Nigeria, the world is divided into two groups--those that have power and money, and those that are brutally oppressed. They don't want schools to be built, unless the schools are Muslim schools. They don't want churches to be built--the Christian religion encourages people to hope for a better life, to share, to care about other's suffering. Worst of all, it tells young women that they can be equal to men, something that is hateful to fundamentalist Muslims.
I understand perfectly why the suicide bombers attack American targets and Iraqis who work for a free Iraq--it is a demonstration of hopelessness. Their beliefs are obviously not relevant to the modern world--they are trying to compete in the 21st century with 16th century ideas. They hate the fact that they are losing, and there is no hope that their ideas will somehow be predominant.
The Americans cannot understand that. Here, people can start with nothing, as I did, and become rather wealthy. I would rather own a convenience store here than be a lawyer or professor in Nigeria. Life is BETTER here, and it cannot be denied, no matter how hard they try."

This is an interesting take on the situation. The fear of becoming obsolete. Personally I think that the western way can do with some discipline. Look at all the mindless yahoos running around with their cocks hanging out. Perhaps we should embrace them I really think it would be a positive influence. Hakim Bey has an intersting take on this with Jihad being the natural enemy of capitalism. I wish Hakim Bey wrote more books.

[!@#$%]

tease.

they would have wanted help with what?
blowing up their country?

part of the reason why iraq was in trouble was because sanctions WERE WORKING.

the only reason we got involved with iraq was oil.

look at how we handled haiti.
hmm, odd, they have no valuable natural resources.

or what of the congo?
why didn't we help them?

those people were being opressed and merdered by a brutal dictator who was de-stabilizing that whole region around him.

we sat back and watched.

[villain]

Robert Mugabe makes saddam look like a powder puff.

I believe our schism with iraq began when saddam wanted control over a water resource there. I would offer a more detailed explaination but I have duty soon. Peace ppl

[Æ°]

Damn, the body count is up to 114 now.

[ounceaddict]

KaBar2: I honestly wouldnt be surprised if you were born a little mentally retarded.

[seeking]

i find myself agreeing less and less with kabar all the time, but i still feel he has a hell of alot more worthwhile oppinions to contribute to this forum than you seem to.
go back to paper chase or the yard or something, and beg for krink recipes, jerk off.

[Brownbread?]

Originally posted by villain
We can either force peace among these people like saddam did or we can give them a reason to live together peacefully in some kind of americanesque society.

Yea but how? How do you force peace like Saddam? First of, the U.S is seen as an invader in the middle east. Any overuse of force and you invite more blood not only in Iraq but at U.S. embassies or allies. Secondly , Saddam ruled with an iron fist and few questioned his authority. People aren't as afraid of the US as they were of Saddam. Saddam was like the Mafia and the U.S. is like a police force.
I honestly dont think there can be Ameriican democracy in Iraq. Atleast not any time soon. I The whole thing is so complicated. At the end of the day Iraq will probably just have another Saddam just like Haiti a decade ago.

[TheoHuxtable]

Originally posted by El Mamerro
I dunno about this statement...


This situation is so royally fucked I can't even begin to imagine how it can be fixed.

Hint: there was never a suicide bombing in Iraqi history, until after George W. Bush initiated the "regime change". Now there are currently more frequent and deadly suicide bombings in Iraq than any other country in the world (including Israel, which is currently pretty quiet on the suicide bombing note).

Seeking was right.

[LaCosaNostra]

yea.....we done fucked them over real bad:dazed: ;)

[TEARZ]

rip

what are we gonna do? :(

[BROWNer]

the nigerian guy is probably bang on, ain't no excuse though.

also, i'm fucking glad to shit ritter has been vindicated. when i
saw him talk, he predicted everything that has happened.
so many suckers.

[Æ°]

[img]http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg'>

[metallix]

http://www.matthawkins.co.uk/guts-se/graphics/photos/photo_37_md.jpg'>


hey motherfucker's lets not forget that the reason where in this war is to keep our FOSSIL FUEL ADDICTION supplied.

Why Don't WE CREATE A NATIONAL STRATEGY TO REDUCE PETROLEUM CONSUMPTION?

[BROWNer]

operative word: WE

[Nekro]

Originally posted by Æ°
[img]http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg'>

[effyoo]

I just read an article in esquire magazine about how the US is spending billions of dollars on hiring civillian soliders to do alot of the dirty work:

Never before in a war zone has the United States relied so much on private citizens to perform military functions. Security firms such as DynCorp and Kroll, retained on State Department and Pentagon contracts worth billions of dollars, have sent thousands of civilian contractors to do the work that the undermanned U. S. military can't. Here, for the first time, the inside story of the private armies of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Here's the link: http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.d...&item_id=366991 (http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do;jsessionid=alkTGWymlji8?from=se arch&item_id=366991)

[Poop Man Bob]

TPM (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_02_29.html#002624):
Just a thought on these horrific coordinated bombings today in Iraq. Americans have become numbed over the last eight months or so by the sheer regularity of the carnage from the various suicide bombing attacks in Iraq.

The Ashura attacks today have been major news in the United States. But they haven't driven various other stories from the headlines. And I think it's easy to understate their significance.

Just consider one crude measure.

We don't know yet the exact death toll from these attacks. And it may be some time before we do. But the New York Times has an estimate tonight placing the number of dead at 170. Iraq has a population of just under 25 million. The United States is home to a tad over 290 million. In other words, there are well over ten times as many Americans as Iraqis.

So, to get a feel for the impact of these attacks on the country, the number of people who lost loved ones, know others who did, and so forth, multiply that death toll by 11 or 12 times in order to get a feel for the number in American terms. A good ballpark point of comparison is what it would be like to have around 2000 people killed in one day in this country. And, of course, that's not that different from the 3000 who were killed here on September 11th.

[effyoo]

[img]http://www.siatlanta.com/forumpics/toreup.jpg'>

[imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by TheoHuxtable
Hint: there was never a suicide bombing in Iraqi history, until after George W. Bush initiated the "regime change". Now there are currently more frequent and deadly suicide bombings in Iraq than any other country in the world (including Israel, which is currently pretty quiet on the suicide bombing note).

Seeking was right.

I'm not saying he's wrong, what I meant is that I'm not sure if that's the best way to look at the situation. And anyways, the more correct observation would be to specify that none of those people would have been killed in a suicide bombing. They could very well have been killed for other reasons under any oppressive regime, be it Saddam's, the US, etc.

Although I know what seeking is saying, it kinda comes off as saying that these people would be better off under Saddam. Saddam had to go, period. What I dislike is the way the USA has carried it out, and the pretenses it claimed for carrying it out... now they've created a huge clusterfuck of a mess, and yes, for the time being, Iraq is worse off... only time will tell if it's gonna take a turn for the best in the end.

[TEARZ]

bien hecho mamszki

[SteveAustin]

Originally posted by effyoo
I just read an article in esquire magazine about how the US is spending billions of dollars on hiring civillian soliders to do alot of the dirty work:

Never before in a war zone has the United States relied so much on private citizens to perform military functions. Security firms such as DynCorp and Kroll, retained on State Department and Pentagon contracts worth billions of dollars, have sent thousands of civilian contractors to do the work that the undermanned U. S. military can't. Here, for the first time, the inside story of the private armies of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Here's the link: http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.d...&item_id=366991 (http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do;jsessionid=alkTGWymlji8?from=se arch&item_id=366991)

damn interesting article about life inside Iraq. definitely worth reading all 5 pages.

[seeking]

nice one PMB,

mams,
i was saying that your average iraqi citizen DID have a better standard of living under saddam...they admit it themselves. atleast they had jobs, water, electricity and didn't have to worry that at any given moment, someone might just walk into their mosque and blow the whole effing place up.
now none of that is to say that saddam was 'good', or that people were 'free' or anything like that, but your average citizen, the same ones who are being murdered for trying to join the police department, because they lost their jobs and cant afford to feed their families, are now living in sub-human conditions. saddam did need to be removed, but this was absolutely the wrong way to go about it. if we had let the UN do their job, none of this would have happened.

[imported_El Mamerro]

I know, I agree, at the time being, they ARE worse off. But I have yet hope that in the end, at least some degree of stability is achieved such that the standards of living are substantially better than under Saddam. We all expected a period of crazyness, just not for so long and with such intensity.

I think making such a comment is warranted in 5 years or so, after a new government has been installed and has been given time to excercise its function. If, by then, the situation is worse, then it is perfectly OK to say "If Saddam was still in power, then..."

I just think it's not fair to make such a comparison this soon, when the intensity and sudden violence of the current situation is fresh in our minds, and seems to eclipse the slow, torturous dragging of the past regime. They're both equally terrible in their own way.

And PMB, that article is the hotness. I shall pass it on forth...

[BROWNer]

also, i hope no one forgets that 'life under saddam' was
in relative terms, shit city for the most part, but that even though he was
a scumbag, at one time he had iraq rocking shit. there is a tendency to
completely disregard the guy's whole ouevre.
now from there, we all know he made some serious errors
from which people lay blame in all directions, right, wrong, whatever, and
he killed thousands etcetry...you definitely do not want to defend the guy.
that said, when you look at the media presentation, or the white house spin,
the admin's rhetoric NEVER touches
sanctions, which were much more harmful to iraqi's than
saddam was. i think this should always be pointed out, even if your
logic is that saddam brought it on himself and his people, therefore
reference to it specifically is the same as the larger reference of his
dictatorship. in ritter's analysis, the power set up benefitted
sunni's..under that paradigm, saddam's dictatorship was
pretty functional at keeping the tribal differences, in a civil
sense, from ripping the country apart.
i suppose an optimist could be commend team bush
for finally ending the sanctions..anyhow..
i'm not trying to defend him here, i'm just sayin'...
as far as where this is all going..i hate to be such a friggin' pessimist, but..
i think this war was a massively irresponsible move that will
never be won..and if it is(the definition of 'win' will be interesting i'm sure), the telos will NOT be a democracy. i think people are really kidding themselves if they are hoping for some nice little outcome.

[seeking]

true all that.

it's far easier to slip into lawlessness than it is to restore order.
we basically took one of the more 'civilized' countries in the area, and reduced it to shambles. regardless of how much money saddam 'stole' from his people, iraq was never afghanistan...it was never a bombed out shell of a country. they were very modern, and even pretty 'western' by most standards.
again, i'm not trying to defend saddam, but as browner said, we've had 15 years of 'saddam is the devil' slammed down our throats, so nothing that he did that was 'right' will ever be mentioned.

finally, our sanctions killed more iraqi's than saddam did. our 'operation iraqi freedom' is killing more iraqi's than saddam did.
i'm having serious issues accepting that the (possible) ends justify the means....especially when in the last 50 years, we have arguably NEVER left a country in better shape than when we 'aided' it.

seeks/if im not making sense today, it's because i'm asleep.

[imported_El Mamerro]

I don't believe in any way that the outcome will be happiness and sunshine, but I can't hope for the opposite... I don't find a reason why not to wish for a good resolution for this mess. I know people who actually both believe and WANT the result to be a total fucking failure, just cause it'll give them a chance to dance, chant "I told you so!!", and have further reason and base to rant against the US.

The whole thing from the beginning has been a huge fucking error... and for the most part I think that sanctions were a huge part of this error. However, soon enough down the line of alternative options you run into a dead end where you realize there's no easy way out. If Saddam has to go, or persuaded to change his way of government, how do you achieve this without affecting the population adversely? I have yet to hear very convincing solutions, at the bottom of the list of which are economic sanctions, which barely even make any sense to me.

We can find positives in Saddam's rule, just as we can find them in any government, tyranic, democratic, communist, etc. I am very much aware of Saddam's role in bringing Iraq into prosperity. But does it justify or outweigh the negatives that came afterwards? I'm not gonna disregard his period of dopeness, but if, when averaged out, the whole thing still amounts to shit city...

I might have not been against the war had it been at a later time, with enough time given to adequate planning for post-war rebuilding, more global agreement, and after the real immediate threats to the country had been taken care of (ie: NOT Saddam).

[TheoHuxtable]

Originally posted by El Mamerro
I know, I agree, at the time being, they ARE worse off. But I have yet hope that in the end, at least some degree of stability is achieved such that the standards of living are substantially better than under Saddam. We all expected a period of crazyness, just not for so long and with such intensity.

I think making such a comment is warranted in 5 years or so, after a new government has been installed and has been given time to excercise its function. If, by then, the situation is worse, then it is perfectly OK to say "If Saddam was still in power, then..."

I just think it's not fair to make such a comparison this soon, when the intensity and sudden violence of the current situation is fresh in our minds, and seems to eclipse the slow, torturous dragging of the past regime. They're both equally terrible in their own way.

And PMB, that article is the hotness. I shall pass it on forth...


This insurgency may seem long and it may seem like a "mess" but it's incredibly light by Vietnam standards. In Vietnam the U.S. was losing on average about 40 soldiers a day. In Iraq it seems to be about 1 or 2 a day.

[Poop Man Bob]

Theo - I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that those one or two lives being lost daily are dying due to lies. Plus, the fact that you can compare a current situation to one that was much worse in the past doesn't take away from the high shit factor of the here and now.

[HESHIANDET]

aren't you people out of breath yet?


yawn

[S@T@N]

I've been gone for a month, and I come back to one of the most relevant
and enlightening discussions of our situation in Iraq that I've heard in a
very long time, and I'm only half through. Thanks guys.

[!@#$%]

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39910000/jpg/_39910685_203i_zarqawi_ap.jpg'>


Zarqawi blamed for Iraq massacre

Shias blame the US for failing to protect them

The US says it has evidence linking a Jordanian-born al-Qaeda suspect to Tuesday's devastating attacks in Iraq which killed up to 271 people.

The American commander in Iraq, Gen John Abizaid, hardened the US line on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in testimony to Congress in Washington.

A letter purporting to be from al-Qaeda has denied any involvement.

The blasts on Tuesday came at the climax of a Shia festival and marked Iraq's bloodiest day since the war.

Three days of national mourning are being observed in Iraq where thousands of people have taken part in the first funerals.

Fifteen people were arrested in Karbala after the blasts, including five people believed to be Iranians.

Top US administrator for Iraq Paul Bremer blamed infiltrators for the attack and said new measures would be taken to increase security on Iraq's borders.

Zarqawi role

One day after the attacks, the death toll rose sharply, although there is a discrepancy between figures given by Iraqis and US officials.

The level of organisation and the desire to cause casualties among innocent worshippers is a clear hallmark of the Zarqawi network

"The number of martyrs from the two cities as of this afternoon is 271," Iraqi Governing Council President Mohammed Bahr al-Uloum told a news conference in Baghdad on Wednesday.

US officials earlier said 117 had died.

"We have clear intelligence that ties Zarqawi to this attack," Gen John Abizaid told the House of Representatives' Armed Services Committee.

The head of the US Central Command did not give any details of the role in the attacks by the Jordanian-born suspect.

"The level of organisation and the desire to cause casualties among innocent worshippers is a clear hallmark of the Zarqawi network," Gen Abizaid said.

"We also have intelligence that shows there are some linkages between Zarqawi and former regime elements, particularly the Iraqi intelligence services," he added.

US officials say a letter from Mr Zarqawi urging attacks on Shia Muslims was intercepted last month.

In London, journalists at the al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper, which received a letter signed by a group said to be linked to al-Qaeda - the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades - said they believed the document, denying responsibility, was genuine.

Tens of thousands of people turned out in Baghdad and Karbala to bury the dead.

Chanting "God is greatest", the Karbala mourners carried aloft the coffins draped with palm leaves and Iraqi flags.

A top Shia cleric, Ayatollah al-Sistani, criticised the US for inadequately securing the country's borders from foreign attackers.

A US official said terrorists were believed to have crossed into Iraq with Iranian pilgrims planning to celebrate Ashura - a commemoration of the death of Imam Hussein in 680.

MAJOR ATTACKS SINCE 1 MAY

2 Mar 2004: Up to 271 Shias killed in Baghdad and Karbala during the Ashura religious festival
1 Feb 2004: At least 101 killed by twin suicide bombings during celebrations in Kurdish city of Irbil
18 Jan 2004: 18 reported killed outside coalition HQ, Baghdad
14 Dec 2003: Car bomb at police station kills 17 in Khalidiya, west of Baghdad
12 Nov: 26 die in suicide attack on Italian base in Nasiriya
2 Nov: 16 US soldiers die as Chinook helicopter downed
27 Oct: Red Cross and other buildings in Baghdad bombed, more than 30 killed
29 Aug: Mosque near Najaf bombed, at least 80 dead including top Shia cleric
19 Aug: UN headquarters in Baghdad bombed, 23 killed including head of mission
List covers attacks since US declared war effectively over


"Bush said the aim of this was is to make the world safer, well surely it did not make it safe for us Iraqis"

Dia, Baghdad

[KaBar2]

Actually, it's the only reasonable solution. We Americans are addicted to the ease and convenience of owning our own cars. The proliferation of the automobile has had a terrible effect on every society which has introduced them, but it is just so cool to be able to go where you want, when you want, and in relative safety and privacy, that just about everybody who can afford a car owns one, or at least wants to own one.

There are a lot of downsides to car ownership, of course. One of the worst things is that we have let public transportation become marginalized, and in the case of the bus and trolley and streetcar companies (like the Red Cars in Los Angeles) after WWII, we let GMC corporation buy them all up. Then, of course, they took them out of service and replaced them with uncomfortable, nasty, stinky GMC diesel buses that were more profitable for GMC but less satisfactory for the rest of us. In collusion with the petroleum companies, they then pushed the idea that everybody needed a car, in the late 1940's and during the 1950's.

We have nobody to blame but ourselves (well, our grandparents, maybe.)

This situation is not irreversible. STEP ONE: If you own a car, stop using it. If you don't own a car, don't buy one.
STEP TWO: Start using public transportation or ride a bicycle. Don't use anything with an internal combustion engine.
STEP THREE: Move as close to where you work as you can, so you won't have as far to commute. Better yet, start your own business in your home, so you can just stay home and work in your pajamas.

Do I do any of this shit? Of course not. But if enough OTHER people do so, maybe if some of these assholes will GET OFF THE GOD DAMNED FREEWAY, I will be able to drive around without getting stuck in traffic and driving will be fun again, like in 1965, when we had eight lanes of EMPTY FREEWAY to drive around on. People used to say, about the Gulf Freeway in Houston, "What in the world will we ever use all those empty lanes for? It was a waste of money!" Today, it's eight lanes of bumper-to-bumper traffic crawling through the smog.

There are more than twice as many people now than when I was born. In one generation, we DOUBLED the population of the world.

So, you guys not only need to stop driving, you need to stop fucking too.

Then everything will be wonderful, there will be no pollution, the fish will return to the oceans, the snail-darters won't be endangered any more, the Iraqis will be peaceful and enlightened, the suicide bombers will stop blowing themselves up, and I can go ride freight trains and be a happy old fart.

[effyoo]

you forgot to include the sarcasm part, Kabar...

[TheoHuxtable]

What about electric or hydro-electric cars? Aren't they supposed to be taking over? Eventually something will have to, because if I recall correctly the world's oil reserves are supposed to be fully used up before the end of this century.

[Poop Man Bob]

Originally posted by KaBar2
Do I do any of this shit? Of course not. But if enough OTHER people do so, maybe if some of these assholes will GET OFF THE GOD DAMNED FREEWAY, I will be able to drive around without getting stuck in traffic ...

I assume you're being sarcastic ... but if not, that sentence pretty much sums up the US's approach towards public transportation - "Why can't people ride the bus so I can have more room to drive my car?"

[!@#$%]

i gave up my car after someone totaled it...(he ran a red light and t-boned me)
i just never got another one.
now i ride a bike.

this is not a new idea.
but a perfect illustration of why i don't think i should keep on living in this country...
no one cares, no one does anything themselves.
america is spoiled rotten.

[img]http://a1204.g.akamai.net/7/1204/1401/03122215011/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/7220000/7227429.jpg'>

[SteveAustin]

Originally posted by !@#$%
now i ride a bike.

you're not the only one. while I still have my car and the speed addiction that goes along with it, I ride my bike all over the place. I neglected my car for so long that when I started it up...it was blowing a little white smoke from sitting so long. I try and ride to work and do my grocery shopping as often as possible on the bike. I've even managed to get a few of my dates to drive when going out...testing the waters on the no car bit.

[metallix]

well abandoning cars might be the wrong idea. cars give great benefit to society. just the fuel and engine type should be modified.
there is no reason we should be accelerating global warming (and global catastrophe now.) i suppose the only way society en mass will convert to alternate energy fuels will be once the fossil fuels actually do run out. which is slated for 2020 peak global oil production..

perhaps more dollars and cents should be contributed towards developing viable alternate energies? what if the entire $400 billion spent on our war budget was re-directed towards developing a hydrogen economy?
hmm MAKES YOU WONDER.

[imported_El Mamerro]

Originally posted by metallix

perhaps more dollars and cents should be contributed towards developing viable alternate energies? what if the entire $400 billion spent on our war budget was re-directed towards developing a hydrogen economy?
hmm MAKES YOU WONDER.


How Hydrogen can Save America (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/hydrogen.html)

A 5-point plan to develop reasonable infrastructure for hydrogen by 2013, with $100 billion.

[seeking]

i wish someone would invent a car that ran on 'love'.

[seeking]

or maybe one that ran on 'awesome'.
that way i'd never have to deal with people that sucked, cause they'd be stuck in their driveways.

[villain]

HAW HAW HAW!!! You guys are too frickin funny!

Well here's my guess as to the impetus of alternative energies. It's going to be pushed by our little sub superpowers like china, europe, india, and japan (japan has been on this ball for years) because now that the US has a near stranglehold on oil this makes alternative energy all the more attractive to those not so keen on bowing to the sole arbiter over oil. So in a way I guess Bush has done us all an unwitting favor. Maybe he is more serendipitous than we thought.

[metallix]

^ woah thats actually really accurate. India is already pioneering use of Natural Gas powered vehicles (they happen to sit on a ton of Gas)
The conversion kit modifies gasoline to natural gas intake and doesn't cost that much (compared to the cost of securing oil supplies..)

[BROWNer]

there's people that figured out how to run cars on
water and even garbage. anyone remember discovery
channel's "beyond 2000"?

[T.T Boy]

Originally posted by seeking
or maybe one that ran on 'awesome'.
that way i'd never have to deal with people that sucked, cause they'd be stuck in their driveways.

hands down best thing youve said. ever.

[duh-rye-won]

Originally posted by seeking
or maybe one that ran on 'awesome'.
that way i'd never have to deal with people that sucked, cause they'd be stuck in their driveways.

the axis gotta get around somehow to spread the awesomeness

[KaBar2]

Sitting on a ton of natural gas, etc.

[ounceaddict]

we didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol and thats fucked up