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View Full Version : Guidelines for saying NO to police searches.


High Priest
07-02-2004, 05:03 AM
This was taken from EROWID.COM, So all credit for writing etc. belongs to them. If anyone chooses to use this anywhere else please make sure they receive the recognition they deserve.



INTRO

One of the main powers that law enforcement officers carry is the power to intimidate citizens into voluntarily giving up their rights. Police are trained to believe in their authority and trained to perform their interactions with private citizens with confidence. It is their job to deal with problems and they learn to manage uncomfortable situations through strength. Most people, when confronted by police get a mild panic reaction, become anxious, and try to do whatever they can to minimize the time spent with the officer. Because of the imbalance of power between citizen and officer, when a law enforcement officer makes a strongly worded request, most people consent without realizing that they are giving up constitutional protections against improper meddling by the State in the private affairs of citizens.

A common situation is that of the traffic stop. A person is pulled over for a real or perceived vehicle violation and, after checking the driver's license and registration, the officer asks the driver if they have any weapons or illegal drugs in their car. When the citizen answers "no", the police officer asks (in the strongest language he can without demanding) to check that for himself. "Then you wouldn't mind if I took a look in your trunk." or "Why don't you step out of your car." Most people acquiesce to the 'requests' because they don't realize they have the right to say no.



WHY YOU HAVE TO SAY "NO" CLEARLY

The Federal Supreme Court has ruled that as long as the police do not force an individual to do something, the individual is acting voluntarily, even if a normal person would feel very intimidated and would not reasonably feel they could say no. (see Florida v. Bostick, 1991) If you do what a policeman tells you to do before you are arrested, you are 'voluntarily' complying with their 'requests'.

Unfortunately police will often try to push citizens to accept a search, to the point of ignoring when you say "no". Its important to say very clearly "I do not consent to a warrantless search." Or "This is a private event/home/place, you may not enter without a warrant." Don't simply answer questions about searches with a simple "yes" or "no". See this case where drug police asked a confusing question and claimed they misunderstand the answer "yes" to mean they could search (October 24, 2000. Gregg County CODE officers, defendant Dockens, judge Steger, federal court, east district Texas).

Until you say "No, I don't think I'd like to do that." you are cooperating as a peer with the law enforcement officer who is trying to make the world safer. When you say "no" to a request by a police officer, you are asserting your lawful rights as a private citizen. If the officer demands you comply, then in most cases you have little choice. Usually, however, the officer is likely to try to convince you to comply voluntarily. Until and unless you say "no" and stick to it, the police don't even need any real authority to tell you what to do.



WHAT A POLICEMAN CAN MAKE YOU DO

What a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) can demand of a citizen depends heavily on the context of the order. Most generally, police are allowed by the courts to act as any reasonable private citizen would. They may ask questions, look through windows that they happen to be near, walk or drive in public areas, etc. Without a warrant or any suspicion of illegal activity, they are allowed to interact with other citizens, but they have a limited amount of authority to demand compliance, search, or detain people or things.

In highly volatile or dangerous situations, a LEO's authority to require compliance is much higher than in non-threatening contexts. The Supreme Court has ruled (with Terry v. Ohio being one of the primary cases) that the police are allowed to protect themselves from potentially dangerous people or situations. Under the umbrella of "concern for safety" or "search for weapons" the police have wide lattitude to do what they want and to order citizens to comply with their demands.

The Terry v. Ohio case created the "weapons search", "terry search", or "terry pat" exception to the 4th Amendment 'probable cause requirement' for searches. The court ruled that if a police officer "[has] reasonable cause to believe that [someone] might be armed" they can require they submit to a quick patdown. What this has meant is that it is now standard practice to pat down anyone that a LEO wants to, without the need for arrest, probable cause, or even suspicion of a crime.

Many police use weapons pats as a way to intimidate and harass citizens, since it is a power the courts have allowed them to use with little justification. Often a LEO will find something during their patdown which is clearly not a weapon which they would like to see, but this is beyond their Court-approved authority ( see below ).

Also under the 'concern for safety' umbrella, police are given wide latitude by courts to ask individuals to comply with simple non-intrusive commands such as "stand over there" or "wait here for a moment", but the line between order and request becomes very fuzzy when an officer starts telling people where to go unless the situation is volatile / dangerous. There are many stories of two (or more) individuals confronted by police ( one example ) whom the police intentionally separate to try to intimidate or to compare stories. This is generally a 'fishing' maneuver which would not fall under the 'concern for safety' umbrella. ( see below )

During a stop for a traffic violation, police have the power to demand a proper driver's license and other state-required documentation (registration, insurance). In most [ed-all?] states they also have the power to demand sobriety tests [ed - do they need reasonable suspicion of intoxication ?]. The courts have also given police the power to frisk a driver based on the Terry v. Ohio decision (the police should have some reason to think there is danger) and some decisions have even allowed an officer (with no suspicion or cause) to search the area around the driver's seat. [ed-citation for this?]

When a private, law abiding citizen encounters police, the amount of intrusion a Law Enforcement Officer is allowed to demand is limited. Some areas have laws against "disobeying a police officer" or "obstructing an officer from their duties", but the bounds of what officers can reasonably require someone not suspected of any other criminal activity in a peaceful situation have not been clearly drawn by the courts. If someone interferes with a police officer engaged in an arrest or investigation, police tend to have very little patience and will quickly threaten or affect detainment or arrest. Generally, courts give police wide latitude in executing their duties and disobeying a "reasonable" direct order from an officer could be prosecuted in most jurisdictions.

As an encounter proceeds, the police gather data that they can use to formulate 'reasonable, articulable suspicion' or (stronger) 'probable cause' that the individual has contraband or is involved in a crime. As the level of suspicion rises, so does the LEO's authority to intrude into a person's affairs. Once the level rises to 'probable cause' to believe that there is contraband in a vehicle, the Supreme Court has made some very disturbing decisions allowing the police broad power to search in certain cases, including the power to search closed containers without a warrant. (see United States v. Ross, 456 U.S. 798 (1982) )

In a recent decision (Wyoming v. Houghton, April 1999), the Supreme Court ruled that even passengers' belongings, if left in the car, may be searched thoroughly if the driver is suspected of a crime.

In most states, you are not required to identify yourself or show the police your ID (unless you are in a vehicle). We have been unable to confirm that in Nevada that police try to charge people with obstruction of justice for people who refuse to identify themselves to police. However, if you choose to identify yourself, you are required to tell the truth. It is a crime to lie to federal police agents and it is a crime to give false identification to police in many areas [ed- find a cite for this?].

The Supreme Court has said: "A brief stop of a suspicious individual, in order to determine his identity or to maintain the status quo momentarily while obtaining more information, may be most reasonable in light of the facts known to the officer at the time." Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972).

If you want to avoid long and unpleasant interactions with police, do not give them any reasons to suspect you of criminal activity. Courteously decline to participate in 'fishing expiditions' or any other actions you do not wish to perform.

Police may search you 'incident to arrest': after or while arresting someone, police are allowed to search the body of the person being arrested. Recent decisions by the Supreme Court have also allowed the police to do exhaustive searches of any vehicle the arrestee was in and any containers therein. The Supreme Court held "that the police may examine the contents of any open or closed container found within the passenger compartment, 'for if the passenger compartment is within the reach of the arrestee, so will containers in it be within his reach.'" 453 U.S., at 460 (footnote omitted). See also Michigan v. Summers, 452 U.S. 692, 702 (1981).

In Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106 (1977), the Supreme Court "held that police Officers may order persons out of [463 U.S. 1032, 1048] an automobile during a stop for a traffic violation, and may frisk those persons for weapons if there is a reasonable belief that they are armed and dangerous."



WHAT A POLICEMAN CAN NOT MAKE YOU DO

* Police are not allowed to frisk for anything except weapons. If, during a weapons pat, an officer discovers something 'suspicious' you don't have to show it to them.

Although the police have been given a lot of leeway to 'check for weapons', the Supreme Court has ruled (in the key decision Minnesota v Dickerson, 1993) that a weapons search may not be used as a pretext for a more general search. In Minnesota v Dickerson, a man was stopped coming out of a 'notorious crack house' and was patted down in a 'Terry Stop'. The officer noticed something in the man's pocket which he said 'felt to be a lump of crack cocaine in cellophane'. He reached in the defendant's pocket and found some crack-cocaine. The Supreme Court ruled that in order to determine whether the item was crack or not required a further, unwarranted search was necessary which was not acceptable by 4th Amendment standards.

* Police are not allowed to search everyone (see Ybarra v. Illinois, 444 U.S. 85 (1979). In Ybarra v. Illinois, a man was patted down in a bar where the police were arresting a bar owner for selling heroin. An officer identified "a cigarette pack with objects in it" in the man's pocket during the pat down and decided to search Ybarra. The High Court ruled that the officer overstepped his authority by searching everyone in the bar, even though they had a warrant to arrest the bartender and search the bar for evidence of drug sales.

A common situation where police attempt to search many individuals without probable cause is a raided party. Sometimes police tell people to 'empty your pockets' or they pat everyone down as they are leaving or they target a few people based on appearance for a full blown search. Most raids on parties are done without a judge-issued warrant and are based on noise complaints, city ordainances about event sizes, etc. In these cases, most searches will be citizens 'voluntarily' complying with requests except in the case of violence, extreme intoxication, or obvious criminal activity. Be polite and considerate of the difficult job the LEO's have, but do not consent to any warrantless search and do not offer information to the police regarding any criminal activity they suspect you of.


HOW TO SAY NO

So, when a policeman says "Empty your pockets for me?" or "Why don't you step over here for a moment?" What does a reasonable, law abiding citizen say if s/he doesn't want to? Unfortunately there may be no simple answer to this. Because of the nature of most police-citizen interactions, tensions can be high and LEO's may interpret any dissent as hostility or 'suspicious behaviour'.

1. Stay Calm. Speak calmly and slowly and don't be surprised if the officer becomes irritated, angry, or beligerent. Move slowly.
2. Ask Questions. One way to Say No is to ask questions in return: "Is that a request or an order?" "Am I under arrest?" "Am I free to go?" "Why do you want me to *whatever*?" "Am I a suspect in a crime?"
3. Say No. Another way to Say No is to very clearly say no: "No, I would like to leave." "No, I do not consent to any warrantless searches." "You do not have my permission to search me / my car / my belongings."
4. Defuse Tensions. Do everything you can to defuse the tensions and seem peaceful. If an LEO thinks you might be dangerous, the courts have ruled that they have a greater authority to force you to comply.
5. Do not Resist. Do not Argue with a Cop. Do not Touch a cop. Don't Run. Don't complain or threaten an officer legally.
6. Comply when Required. Knowing when you are required to comply can be difficult (see What You Must Do and What You Don't Have to Do ) The moment an LEO pulls a gun, do what they say. If they make you do something through force, your Constitutional Rights are not as important as staying healthy and alive. You can challenge the arrest in court if your rights are violated.
7. Give the Cop a Break. Remember that police have a very difficult job to do and most cops are doing their best to try to keep their communities safe. When it comes to dealing with unusual or strange individuals or confronting drug issues, officers (and many people in the world) make some bad snap judgements. But most cops think of themselves as the Good Guys, so try to let em know you're on their side.
8. Ask for a Lawyer. As soon as its clear you will be arrested, ask for a lawyer and then keep quiet. Police will try to get you to talk. Don't.



CAN SAYING NO GET ME IN MORE TROUBLE?

The short answer to this is, of course, yes and no. A lot is dependent on your rapport with the individual officer(s). Saying No to a police officer should be done gently to avoid enraging them so you don't get beaten up. Saying No to a warrantless search may cause a police officer to harass you further to try to get you to comply. Saying No, however, is always the best idea when it gets to the point of arrest and prosecution. It is never in your interest to cooperate with the police in helping them collect evidence against you. If you do say No and a policeman searches anyway, evidence can sometimes be suppressed (thrown out). If you agree to a search, you have no grounds to dispute the evidence.

It is common to have an officer 'ask' forcefully first and if the suspect gives any indication of saying No, they threaten to arrest them and take them to the station. They say things like "if you don't open your trunk/pocket/whatever for me, I can arrest you and we can open it up down at the station". Often officers will imply that if the suspect cooperates, the cop will go easier on them. While it is true that a police officer controls whether you are arrested or not, very few police officers will overlook anything illegal they find in a search (including very small amounts of cannabis).

rubbish heap
07-02-2004, 05:21 AM
This is all good info EXCEPT a bad cop will do whatever the fuck he wants whether or not it's legal for him to do so. If you see a cop coming towards you, ditch your shit when/if you get the chance by all means.

CrazyLazy
07-02-2004, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by rubbish heap
This is all good info EXCEPT a bad cop will do whatever the fuck he wants whether or not it's legal for him to do so. If you see a cop coming towards you, ditch your shit when/if you get the chance by all means.

Sad, but true fact.

rinse
07-02-2004, 04:11 PM
nice topic.
sometimes cops will offer to ignore your traffic violation with a "one time deal" to let you off if you agree to a search. this happened to me a couple weeks ago. it was a deal worth making. i spent an extra 20 minutes with the cop in exchange for getting out of a ticket and court costs. not too bad if you ask me.

crave
07-04-2004, 06:34 PM
good article. i've read it before, but the refresher was nice.

knowledge is power.

porque
07-04-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by rubbish heap
This is all good info EXCEPT a bad cop will do whatever the fuck he wants whether or not it's legal for him to do so.

...maybe so...but if you read more carefully you'd see that when this happens the courts throw it out...if you get arrested under false pretenses then you can usually argue your way out of it in court...
...on the other hand...if a shady cop wants to beat the shit out of me and leave me in an alley instead of arresting me, i'll take what i can get...it sucks, but so does jail...

porque
07-04-2004, 07:40 PM
Monday, June 21, 2004 6:36 p.m. ET

By James Vicini

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - People stopped by the police must give their names, a divided U.S. Supreme Court said on Monday, ruling that it did not violate their constitutional right to privacy or to remain silent.
By a 5-4 vote, the high court upheld a Nevada law that requires detained individuals to identify themselves when asked to do so by the police, based on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing. Twenty other states have similar laws.

The ruling was a victory for the U.S. Justice Department and state officials who said forced identification represented a "minimal" intrusion on privacy rights, helped solve crimes and contributed to police and public safety.

The case involved Larry Hiibel, who was convicted of resisting an officer after refusing 11 times to give his name when Sheriff's Deputy Lee Dove questioned him on May 21, 2000, as he stood beside his parked truck in Humboldt County.

Based on a report from a witness, Hiibel was suspected of hitting his daughter, who was inside the truck. Hiibel also was suspected of driving under the influence of alcohol, based on his eyes, mannerisms, speech and the smell of alcohol.

Hiibel told Dove he would cooperate, but refused to give his name because he said he did not believe he had done anything wrong. He was arrested, found guilty of the misdemeanor offense of resisting an officer and fined $250.

Hiibel appealed his conviction and argued that his constitutional rights protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures and against self-incrimination had been violated.

But the Nevada Supreme Court upheld his conviction, ruled the law passed constitutional muster and said forced identification was a minimal intrusion outweighed by the government's interest in police safety.

LIBERAL JUSTICES DISSENT

The Supreme Court, in a ruling by Justice Anthony Kennedy, upheld that decision and said the officer's conduct did not violate Hiibel's constitutional rights.

Kennedy said state stop-and-identify laws often combine elements of traditional vagrancy laws with provisions intended to regulate police behavior during the course of investigatory stops.

States with similar laws are Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, and Wisconsin he said.

Kennedy said the Nevada law only required that a suspect disclose his or her name. It does not require the suspect to produce a driver's license or any other document.

Nevada State Public Defender Steven McGuire, one of the lawyers who represented Hiibel, expressed disappointment at the ruling.

"A Nevada cowboy courageously fought for his right to be left alone, but lost. We believe the court's holding erodes the belief in the right to privacy cherished by so many Americans," he said.

The court's liberal members, Justices John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer, dissented.

Stevens said that a person's identity could be incriminating. "A name can provide the key to a broad array of information about the person, particularly in the hands of a police officer with access to a range of law enforcement databases," he said.

Stevens said such information "can be tremendously useful in a criminal prosecution."




...this is from the other thread but it's relevant to this so they ought to be together...pay attention to the states mentioned...if you aren't in these states then you don't have to comply...

hobo knife
07-04-2004, 07:50 PM
see, the only problem with probable cause is it's so ambigous, to the point that it comes down to your word against the officer/s...and if you end up getting charged with something the court/judge is much more likely to side with the "officer" than with a "suspect". Keep in mind... if an officer makes a slightly unlawful arrest his job/reputation is on the line, so you'd better believe he'll bend the truth in his favor. Most cops really are out to stop crime and keep the community safe, and a lot of them have the mentality "Bending the rules a little is ok because I know this person is guilty of a crime"...bottom line, there are loopholes for a reason-- so the wealthy can get off the hook , and the poor wind up with a charge-- a good lawyer is well worth the money.

€€FoRGEČ€€
07-05-2004, 05:01 AM
"In most states, you are not required to identify yourself"

in the WHATS YOUR NAME thread it says theres a law sayin you MUST identify yourself with a first and last name WHENEVER a cop wants it

porque
07-05-2004, 05:33 PM
^^...read the reply two posts above yours...

imported_b0b
07-06-2004, 10:19 PM
in my experience when you start telling police what they can and can't do they get pissed off and fuck you over.

Leedsboozer
07-07-2004, 06:21 PM
yer i remember once when me n my mate were walkin to a mates house, we had jus got off the bus,we hadn't even hit the bus(that time) and these two random pigs stopped us,took down out details, n then one guy started to search me, so i asked him why he was searching me for no reason n he then went on some bullshit bout he could do what ever he wanted 2 do.while this was happenin my mate jus stood there,not gettin searched or anything.Pig found my pen but i made up some story bout being an art student n it not being mine,etc.

panic
07-10-2004, 02:37 PM
I wonder how much of this can be translated into canadian law.
hmm.
i once told an officer of the law he could not search my car because " i have nothing illegal, no drugs. So i would hate for you to waist your time and mine". he continued to press, but i just got pissed. i had to work in the morning and i was already late getting home.

WeStSiDe g
07-12-2004, 05:24 AM
cops where im from dont give a fuck my boy got banked by 6 cops and thrown for a window for talking with some old guy about graffitti....they searched him found nothing and blamed some tag nearby on him then he lost his temper cuz the cop said sum shit about how he looks like a gang member from the mission and lied and said he could arrest gangmembers without them actually commiting a crime...a crowd gathered and hella people were cursing out the cop so the racist old fatso called hella back up and shit and when the backup came they all ran up and my boy and juss started beating him screamin hes got a weapon and shit like that and they picked him up and threw him thru a store window and then dragged him bloody as fuck into the cop car and they drove away...then helal witnesses wrote out statements demanding them to be given to the judge in my boys defense and unfortunately they gave em to the cop which the cop then went to take and rip to shreds when most of the witnesses had left and thru them in the trash can all of this was done with my boys girlfreind right there crying the whole time........my boy eventually got charged with 2 counts of assault on a police officer resulting in injury 1 count of vandalism 1 count of possesion of marking tool and 1 count of resisting arrest.....however luckily i bailed him out and the judge thru out his case so it didnt turn out that bad but shows how fucking krupt cops are fuck pigs

ChiNo-27
07-27-2004, 04:43 AM
Good shit, very informative, keep it up people

THE CORONER
08-07-2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by b0b
in my experience when you start telling police what they can and can't do they get pissed off and fuck you over.

all fuckin cops are like that, if your a dick to them theyll be a dick to you and you will never win,

good info High Priest

JimmyTheHat
08-09-2004, 05:31 PM
I was at a chill spot one time w/ a writer whos really big and good in our town... I was askin him shit about how can they catch you and stuff and he goes... There can be wet red paint on that wall, you can be standing next to it w/ red paint in your bag and dripping red paint on your hands but if theres no eye witness and you keep saying no, your off the hook. He said that the only way you can get caught is having a sketch on you, having the cop see you do it, i know the cop would probobly say i saw him even if he didn't, or have an eye witness who will show up in court... I believe this dude cuz he was brought in about 6 times on graffiti and got off it ever single time by sayin no. They did keep him in questioning for about 5 hours but still. Btw, never accept any drinks durning questioning because they will use bathroom rights as a way to give a confession. Unless you just piss your pants.


Isaac

workout
10-12-2004, 01:10 AM
real interesting shit. i definately learned something new today

Kablam!
10-12-2004, 05:42 AM
What if I use a pair of normal like,wool gloves or whatever, and then wash them after painting. will that work just as well as latex gloves?

Chance Em Redy
10-12-2004, 08:45 AM
I dont know about using latex gloves. I read somewhere those things can give you some kind of latex allergic reaction after prolonged use.

So i just dont use gloves.

beelkaemoney
10-12-2004, 03:51 PM
This thread is very very informative without a shadow of a doubt but...

There is this little law that supercedes the cases named earlier.
PATRIOT ACT

The polices' new #1 excuse for unlawful searches(especially on minorities)in"high risk"major metropolitan areas or "sensitive areas" ie train bridges..rail lines.Basically if they were to see you coming out of a alley,bridge etc. and they stop you and ask basic questions such as "what were you doing back there, etc" and then ask for identification or vice versa and you do not comply they are allowed to and will in most instances take you in (citing something from the Patriot Act), now that being said it usually wont go that far but they will intimidate you/attempt to intimidate;with this and usually get your consent search you under this same pretense or our favorite term 'Probable Cause".<--Im just adding to the mix.

Keep up on your shit boys and girls...
Be safe in some of the areas i named...
Know your local laws on whatever your into(painting..pimping..whatever) and federal laws under the same thing...




:mad2: Sneaky Bastards :five-o:

gasfacevictm
10-12-2004, 11:59 PM
even without the patriot act the cops can do whatever the fuck they want. most people don't have the time or money to fight that shit in court especially with a public defender. just steer clear of em.

KAES.IVB.ET
10-15-2004, 09:54 PM
What is the number one thing a cap has over you? FEAR. They will fuck with you no matter what. I can say this from experience. Once your bagged your bagged thats it. I dont think you can talk your way out of shit. I haven't yet. If they thought you did something you did it and thats it. Two broken ribs and a black eye...

Evoke_Me
10-17-2004, 04:51 AM
such good info given

Tyler Durden
10-17-2004, 04:33 PM
speaking from personal experience...dont help the cops. be polite but firm.


cops found paint in the car, bags, more paint in the trunk, paint on my boy when they patted him down and we ended up walking away....well...driving. but yeah. why? we didnt say shit even when we were threatened or when they said theyd go easy on us. do not talk to cops. do not help them build a case on you. even if they do search you illegally and find anything or get you redhanded...it'll be far harder to build a case on you in court if they dont have statements and HARD evidence.

icetray
10-18-2004, 02:15 AM
we are artists.

dodge any pig by all means neccessary..
never let anyone of them take you to court.
deny. deny. deny. lie. lie. lie. shut up. shut up. shut up.

deny their understanding and make your appeal.

and fuck the vandal squad. they're the ones who are criminals.

surpass the buff!

iced_tea
10-18-2004, 07:08 AM
main thing is always always always have an excuse ready and thought out with lots of detail and stay CALM. dont try to com up with something on the spot theyll know your lying that way.

imported_Proph UAcrew
10-20-2004, 10:35 PM
My advice, graff wise, like ^^^ mentioned, a detailed excuse to why you were in a certain area, what you were doing there, where you were coming from, where you are going, etc. is VERY VERY important. If you are not alone, make sure the person/people you are with know the story exactly as you do. It doesn't matter what you were doing, it matters what they think you were doing, and what they can prove. If you provide your answers calm and smoothly, there should be no search. Most times you are stopped the cops don't immediatly suspect you of one certain thing. They ask you questions to raise suspicions about any illegal activity.
The second thing is, always were gloves, and if you have a long sleeve shirt or jacket on, pull the sleeve back slightly when you paint, so no backspray (mist) gets on your clothing (ESPECIALLY SILVER & GOLD PAINT).
Personally, I try to wear one certain color when painting. Not black, it's too suspicious when your dressed in all black at night. Say if I have dark blue jeans on, I'll have a navy shirt. This way, if paint does somehow get on my clothing, I have a similar color paint marker that will cover the more obvious paint marks. Yellow paint drips on blue clothes is quite obviouse, even from 20 feet away. I'd rather have more paraphinelia (the marker) on me than paint drips, I don't know about you.

The last thing is, if you have your cans in a bag, make sure you pack them standing upright. If you just throw them in there after painting, your gonna be rattling all the way down the block. If you are stopped by police and they hear that little jingle, it's more than likely your getting searched. That may even hold up in court as probable cause.

Basicly, if you do things the right way, you'll be able to say no. You don't have much say once probable cause steps in. And it's very easy for that to happen. Even if the officer doesn't actually have any, they can just say, "He had a strong scent of marijuana on him" or "He had that 1000 mile stare, his eyes were glossy and red, and appeared to be intoxicated/high/whatever". Things like this actually hold up in court, but are hard to disprove, because it's the arresting officers view of how it happened. And things like the scent of weed on you/your car are temporary, and hard to disprove without directly calling the officer a lyer (trying to accuse an officer of outright lying in court, is NOT the best idea. The judge will flip that around on you quick.)

yeaaaah baby
10-31-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Kablam!@Oct 11 2004, 09:42 PM
What if I use a pair of normal like,wool gloves or whatever, and then wash them after painting. will that work just as well as latex gloves?
Quoted post

no. paint leaks through the gloves. i rock the cotton gloves sometimes, but my pair are stiff from all the paint thats gotten onto them.

cornelius
10-31-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Chance Em Redy@Oct 12 2004, 03:45 AM
I dont know about using latex gloves. I read somewhere those things can give you some kind of latex allergic reaction after prolonged use.

So i just dont use gloves.
Quoted post



you have the highest possibility of developing a latex reaction with the powdered gloves.. avoid them altogether...they're bad news... the powder in them increases the amount of latex entering the blood stream... basically your sweaty hands are breaking down the latex and it's absorbing into your skin.. thus entering the blood stream... and after prolonged exposure to such conditions, your skin starts to dry out, develop sores, break open and bleed...if you are using powderless and changing them often, you should be in the clear.. but keep in mind petroleum based products (pretty much all paints) break down the latex in the gloves, making them porous... and with small amounts of petroleum.. you're lookin at around a 4 minute breakdown... but we don't need to get into all that... chances are, if you're only using latex gloves for goin out painting, you should be in the clear.. unless you paint 24/7... which i seriously doubt... but if you really do have a serious concern, or already do have a reaction to natural rubber latex, you can use synthetic rubber gloves such as nitrile, or neoprene.... but all this shit is mostly for medical professions and tattoo/piercing artists... and can also be very expensive... you'd probably be alright using those huge vinyl gloves they use for making sandwiches... anyway.. hope that clears it up a bit for you..

FightTheBuff
11-02-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by yeaaaah baby+Oct 31 2004, 09:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yeaaaah baby - Oct 31 2004, 09:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kablam!@Oct 11 2004, 09:42 PM
What if I use a pair of normal like,wool gloves or whatever, and then wash them after painting. will that work just as well as latex gloves?
Quoted post

no. paint leaks through the gloves. i rock the cotton gloves sometimes, but my pair are stiff from all the paint thats gotten onto them.
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[/b][/quote]

my can of rustoleum silver just went buck wild yesterday! my gloves are pure silver now....time to rack some more (tent steez yeaaahh baby)

Overtime
11-04-2004, 06:02 AM
i am onesecondple, and i am addicted to 12oz////

SpAdE7
11-27-2004, 10:18 PM
i dont know if this happens in other states but i am in colorado and recently one of my friends go busted for just having a marker on him. over here they call it "graffiti tools" and he go 100 hours of buffing, 500$ fine and probation (i think)
the law here states that it is illegal for any minor to have any permanent marker with a tip over 3/8 inch wide, can anybody tell me if they got wack laws like that where u live?

doer5*crew
11-28-2004, 11:29 PM
wish i read this read about 8 months ago

casensitive4
11-29-2004, 12:54 AM
i was arrested painting trains a few months ago and have not yet finished court.

a couple weeks ago i was benching in the a close by area where i was arrested and a cop happend to pass by on a near by road and i thought it would have been alright since i was just 'walking the tracks' and the police turned around and came back.. it was a female and a male.. there was a slight distance and the guy said 'hows it goin?' i replied you know whatever.. then as i got closer i realized it was the same cop who had arrested me.. and shortly after asking for my ID he said 'dont i know you from somewhere?' and i said 'yeah you arrested me for graffiti on some trains a couple months ago..'

boy was he pissed.. but i cooperated (for the most part) when i got arrested and so he didnt charge me with anything.. he tried looking at my camera but it was a snapshot (not digital, thank god i had some flicks from graffiti the night before on my digi).. basically we respected each other and he ended up letting me take off and everything was fine... so i guess cooperating and showing respect for the police will make you have a better interaction with them the next time they stop you.. HA!... unless it makes them hate you more for not learning the first time.. haha whatever.. but basically i know about those tricks described in the first post and i agree to most of that stuff even though i didnt think of any of it at the time..



just a quick pointless lame story....

isor357
12-04-2004, 06:15 PM
i allowed the police to search my car one time because i didnt have any contraband, I was late to class, and they said that if i didnt consent they would have to call in for a canine. After the search my car wouldnt start. The officer did'nt find anything and jumped my car but the disconnection caused my car stereo to go into theft protection mode. I had to go to the honda dealership so they could remove the radio, get the code off the back, and call it in for my radio to work again. That shit cost me almost a hundred dollars plus 4 point violation for speeding, a big ass fine, my insurance went way up. For some reason 3 state cops showed up, i was mad cooperative. From now on i will absolutely deny a search because if the cops fuck your property up there is little you can do to recover your losses. I called the department and talked with the chief. I was like dog your officer fuct my car up and he tried to tell me that it was my battery. And i was like the battery is less than a month old. And he was like...i'm the law and you are the law breaker and what i say goes and i say my officer didnt cause your car to die and it was pretty much futile from there on.

The best thing you can do is invent your own language. Just start talking in jibberish. In the midst of your banter make it clear that no means no. The only English word you Control is NO and control that shit like your freedom depends on it. Maybe throw in a couple random words

oobda cadatoopter cardboard ipstain NO NO NO sassa frizzafraz ooplop hibbidy Snoop Dogg hoopsady NO. NO NO NO zoppity blubla a frizza fraz NO rooperty roop rop Falafel dippity do da NO. oopster gibso obston oner dishwasher.

Politely and calmly tell the officer to gooperdoop your vindoodle. If all else fails start pole dancing the nearest tree, shake it like a salt shaker. hump the ground Do what ever it takes to divert his attention from that midget sex slave you have tied up in your trunk. Or that dime of funk you absent mindedly neglected to eat. If you do good enough you may be able to plead insanity. You know... pick your nose and wipe it on the squad car or eat it, defecate yourself. Talk in your made up language to a rock. a stick or what ever you can find on the ground, Lick the ground, chew your tounge until blood stains the front of your shirt. pull your hair out.

Hope and Pray that the videocamera in the squad car isnt recording your behavior because you know that shit would end up on Television sooner or later. Then you have to explain yourself to your Family, employer, girlfriend, or what ever the hell you got.

infaOVERall
12-06-2004, 05:56 PM
nice :hatred:

stringfellow
12-09-2004, 12:12 PM
what the fuck are you on about

RubbeRBand
12-19-2004, 02:52 AM
this ought to be a sticky

dumb story: asleep in a parked van in a state forest. The cops asked for all of our identification, and for some reason no one mentioned the guy asleep in the backseat. They intimidated us into consenting to a search and when they found the guy in the backseat they flipped out. What are the rules regarding searching someone when the person is trespassing?

porque
12-20-2004, 08:38 AM
...tresspasssing is a weird law...basically you're only tresspassin if the person that owns the property says you are...but late at night, or any other suspicious behavior will warrant enough reasonable cause for the police to search you wether you consent or not...the over-riding rule of thumb is 'deny everything' and if you can't think of an excuse, just shut up and don't say anything...the nice thing about tresspassin is that if you can convinve the property owner to drop the charges you're completey free...

mr.yuck
12-22-2004, 09:00 PM
Yeah cops aren't any more intelligent than the average person. Like proph said have a good story that makes sense. I was out painting with one of my boys and we were next to a dumpster. We had fresh tags all around us, paint a few feet from us and shit was looking grim. The cop asked what we were doing there and my boy piped up and said "We are looking for cardboard in this dumpster for a school project." At that point it doesnt really matter where you are coming from or where you are going.

Keep your shit simple and to the point. Dont be shakey. After all, you aren't doing anything wrong.

RaZe.Breh
05-13-2009, 01:24 AM
it fucking sucks when you have to buff shit as community service,

SONolAR187
09-22-2009, 05:23 PM
if you get arrested/stopped try to stay infront of the car while being searched and questioned as much as possible *if the lights are on*
as long as the cars siren lights are on the dash camera is on
the only way to turn them off is to turn off the red and blues
if your stupid and say dumb shit it'll incriminate you
BUT
if your smart you'll deny everything and have a story ready and make sure everyone your with has the same story
bc the mic and camera will discredit anything the cop may lie about or exandurate
the cops know these things but generally assume we dont

PentiumOrange
10-29-2009, 09:43 PM
Moral of the story. Remain calm, and say nothing to incriminate yourself. Keep it smart and simple. I've been arrested a couple of times and I have learned from my mistakes. Don't ever let them forget that you have rights. Use them.

popomen1
01-06-2010, 12:33 PM
Thanks a lot! Enlightening!

shokgobc
01-07-2010, 12:45 AM
i was told that it is not illeagle for a minor to be carrying spray paint..just illeagle if its being used to deface property..what would i do if the cop does endd up searching me and finding the cans

.hopeless.
01-07-2010, 12:48 AM
i was told that it is not illeagle for a minor to be carrying spray paint..just illeagle if its being used to deface property..what would i do if the cop does endd up searching me and finding the cans


its illegal to hold cans in alot of places if your under eighteen.and even if it isnt it's definitely gonna get you detained.




best advice i can give anyone is to not talk to cops.dont try to lie and cover shit up.if you know your in the wrong just stfu.you should NEVER consent to a police search.unfortunately alot of cops dont respect your right to not consent and will just search your ass anyways.this has always been mine and all of my close friends experience...

J-ozone
01-13-2010, 05:02 AM
DONT TALK TO COPS
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

SYCE
01-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Very interesting topic, imma keep some of this info in mind...

J-ozone
01-19-2010, 07:56 PM
Guide to surviving police encounters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

badi100
04-03-2010, 05:35 PM
Secrets of the richest men of the world at your fingertips www.wowlife.tk www.moneymoney2.tk

n8galicia
04-03-2010, 05:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQtaETLEzSA


Say you have dead body in the trunk filled with potent explosives

handsofdoom
04-04-2010, 03:37 AM
so, about that bit on whether or not you have to provide an officer with your name -

if i lived in a state that did not have that legislation passed, and a cop asked my name, i could refuse to provide that information on the grounds that i was practicing my constitutional right of silence and privacy?

dkaeoner
05-09-2010, 01:26 AM
this is all fine and dandy... but in the end, it's his word against yours.

idk about yall, but in the chi, cops are DIRTY AS FUCK. and they will search your shit, not care what you say, and lie through their teeth in court.

XELF
05-09-2010, 07:03 PM
dope post.

ASTRL1
07-14-2010, 06:57 PM
So what do you do when Narcs bust you for writing on the bus? They sat me down and searched my backpack because it was in another section and I had no say....
Fuck Narcs in San Francisco!

This is the best site with a lot of info on cops and procedures....
www.copwatch.org

gxcxhxcx
09-17-2010, 09:10 AM
I'm not going to read all of this right now, but before I forget. I just posted this somewhere else might be relevant and helpful. To my knowledge it's true. Please let me know if anything is false so I can fix it. Also if something was already stated... shut up.

If you have any run ins with them:

While they are small talking (asking for id or whatever) say "Am I free to go?"

They can play this two ways Yes or no.
If they say you are free to go get the fuck out of there.
If they say no that means you are being detained however it doesn't necessarily mean you are under arrest.

Next they will do something like this
"Oh.. this is your bag? I'm just going to look in it real quick, you don't mind right?"

They will word it really funny to confuse you into allowing them to search.

You should say over and over until they stop asking: "I do not consent to a search"

They are allowed to pat you down however this is only to ensure their safety. They can not feel a bag and say oh you have weed you're under arrest. They can however notice a bulge that could be a knife or a gun and detain you for that. So during a pat down it is probably a good idea to tell them about any weapons you are carrying in a non-threatening manor.

If you are under arrest:
No matter how much you think you can talk your way out of it or how much you wanna tell the pig to fuck off, all you should say is "I don't want to answer any of your questions I want to speak with a lawyer" they will be assholes and say oh you want to talk to a lawyer go ahead and call one. This is just a game they play. They can't hold you for longer than 72 hours (i think) without actually charging you. Believe me being held for 72 hours is much better than fines and months or even weeks in jail and eventually they have to let you talk to a lawyer (which the state will provide for you free of charge).

Also anytime you have an interaction with the pigs you should get their badge number. I also watch the car numbers that way I know if one or two cops is actually following me.

This may sound paranoid but whatever better safe than sorry.

or you could just run. Fuck the police.

emptycan400ml
09-30-2010, 10:46 PM
i had a friend in nyc, who got stopped when bombing. he didnt get arrested but they robbed him of all his shit and money

TWEKDUBS
10-09-2010, 09:14 AM
FUCK THE POLICE if you see a pig just run best advice ever ( in some circumstances oviously ) but if you do get questioned Be POLITE but be firm in your answers dont show fear Police pray on the weak

Zero-Sum
10-25-2010, 05:13 AM
This entire thread's extremely helpful. Thanks, High Priest. I'll keep this all in mind.

gxcxhxcx
11-05-2010, 02:14 AM
FUCK THE POLICE if you see a pig just run best advice ever ( in some circumstances oviously ) but if you do get questioned Be POLITE but be firm in your answers dont show fear Police pray on the weak

I don't think I would run if I just SAW a cop. I think the only time you should run is if you know they saw you hittin some shit. Cops regularly patrol shit so they are more than likely just driving by. It would make less than no sense to just run if they are rolling by.

SuicidexKing
03-22-2011, 05:02 AM
Solid fucking thread

-SENZ-
04-01-2011, 08:02 AM
In melbourne, i live in an area where cops and people my age dont mix. Sure you can say no to a serch and all this shit, but the fact is if your rocking your air's with a polo and a cap on they will be cunts to you.

You can bring out all this legal shit sayin that they cant serch you but allot of the cops i have delt with either just arrest you then and there or serch my bag anyway. This is not legal ofource and i have taken badge numbers and reported them but nothing has happened ofcource. Iv had my step dad pick me up from the cop station and yell at the cops but that didnt do anything.

Thing i have found is this. If you have a padlock on your bag zips and you lock it cops wont bother serching it if you say you left the lock at home. Just stick to this story. Iv been arrested for this and when they got me back to the station they had to let me go because they arnt allowed to forcibly open the lock without a warrent as its damage to property. so they X rayed it and let me go...

This legal stuff is all well and good for in the city and the such, but where i live it just dosnt work. Cops can do what they like cozz reports against them arnt followed up and in reality who are YOU going to belive? A cop or a kid with a rat tail who grafs...

Good topic though. just stating what its like in melbourne suburbs

CrazyPaint
04-02-2011, 08:29 PM
Really good post :D

MrFuckYou
04-20-2011, 01:25 AM
Great thread.

gymclassboner
05-25-2011, 04:48 AM
okay say i being a minor am out after kerfew so they already got that on me do they need a warrant to search my backpack? if i have suspition of graff on my record can they do shit? what if im wearing clothing that meets descriptions of graffiti reports in that time/area?

..romero..
05-25-2011, 09:13 AM
yes, they can search your bag.. because you are a minor and breaking curfew you are technically breaking the law, and the fact that you are out at night (and being a minor of course) is enough probable cause that your are breaking the law, if you were to deny consent he'd probably just arrest you and search it anyway. they are basically going to pull you over, ask you your age, what you are doing out and where do you live etc.

if you have been spotted in the area and match a description to a crime it is likely you will be detained and questioned, if they find that you are infact involved in a crime they will arrest you and search you. you already have a suspicion of graff on your record, and im guessing if you have a bookbag its probably filled with paint, you're fucked bro. case is solid and you are gonna have to do alot of work and have one hell of a lawyer with a case like that.


my advice, run. you're probably gonna go to jail anyways, might as well go for broke. who knows, you might actualy get away and then it gives you the chance to regroup and try again. if you're gonna go to jail anyways you might as well make those fools work for their arrest.

massgraff
05-27-2011, 01:36 AM
there are no guidelines.

you say no.

probable cause.

you wake up with a nightstick up your ass.

minenone
06-24-2011, 10:05 PM
^yeahwhen they stop you its over if they want it to be ,they want to search they will, we live in a world where rights dont mean shit and if you come off as an ass to the cop thell do evrything in their power to fuck you

MCduffy
07-15-2011, 01:33 AM
always refuse

SEVO713
03-06-2012, 12:44 PM
just some helpful info if you get busted/ tips with cops..


say i have embarassing stuff if you dont want them to search your back pack.. say your girl friend has some toys... or some wack shit..and say it would be embarassing for her to know he saw them.. say you dont consent to any searches, be nice..calm..and state your name, your personal info and shut the fuck up.. try and give off a cool vibe..play it cool. cops dont know your guility unless you give them reason to believe so dont be nervous either... yeah cops can do anything they want... i HIGHLY suggest picking up the book on amazong called "busted drug war survival skills" or "arrest proof yourself" 2 great books... cops are trained into makeing you give up your rights. you have rights USE THEM. if he says im going to get the K9 dog or im calling in back up patrol cars...say im sorry officer but i dont have anything on me & i dont consent to any searches. if you do anything illegal pick up them books there cheap and good to know to save your ass from going to jail & haveing a criminal record. id rather pay money for a book then to pay some court fees... "if a cop cant see you he cant bust you" &

off topic but.. there was a story where a drug dealer was walking home from a halloween party and had his stash in his backpack..closed & everything and had his i.d away from his drugs but the cops pulled him over because they had a crime in the area and he fitted the discription of the suspect... so they got out had him at gun point he got on the floor and the cops go where is your i.d?before they asked him for his i.d they asked him to toss his bag in front of them. he said "its in the right pocket on my backpack thats where my i.d is officer" the officer checked his i.d and questioned why he was in the area.. they said they had the wrong guy gave him back his bag and let him go.... if he would of said my i.ds in my bag he would of been fucked cause the cops would of found his stash of dope. so... replace drugs with paint and if you were a writer with paint in your bag and you said my i.d is in my bag.. looks like you probs would of had some explaining to do & it would of turned into a sketchy situation... dont dress like a criminal either.. if your sagging pants, wearing polo or have have on cholo socks and flip flops, shorts and a white T and a shaved head ... or have on a shirt that says "herb is the healing" or a fucking graffiti shirt your gonna get treated like a criminal.... also dont admit to anything NEVER.. if they ask anything just answer simple ...all they legally have to know is your personal info.. say im not speaking until i talk to my lawyer if you do get busted. if you get arrested remember anything you say or do is recorded from the cop car-to the jail holding cell.

if you do get busted for graff or what ever you got busted for.. in jail you'll get a phone call make sure you remember this shit state where you are, how long you have been there, what you've been charged with, your booking number... get your papper work too & a lawyer and if you can bail money. theres also nothing you can tell a cop once your busted that will change his mind of not arresting you... i wouldnt get drunk and paint either...hell its fun but if you happen to get caught or have bad luck.. your more likely to get searched..etc.. use your common sense.

SureisShitty
04-01-2012, 03:29 AM
My tip is better safe than sorry. If you think your blown and someone's about to come racing back get as far fuckin away as you can. I wear baggy pants such as sweatpants over shorts or skinny jeans and either a hood or flannel. I'm a paranoid dude though. But who can say it aint for good reason? Always wear gloves...just....always don't be fucking dumb. If you wanna be a bitch about latex get some reusable ones. Don't keep shit in anything but your bag and when you set up for a throw put it a little away from you and just take out your needed colors, that way when someone drives by and you got act casual they aren't gonna be like what the fuck does that guy have a bookbag at two AM for? if you do get stopped HOPEFULLY you'll have your shit ditched and your hands clean, and you if you are nice and know how to communicate you can get outta there. They can't do shit if you match a description but got no evidence on you. I don't think you should run every time, if youre in downtown and a cop sees you catch a hand, and hes in a car and you're on foot, what do you think is gonna happen? plus if you play it cool and see it coming you can in all possibilty talk your way out of it. once you run you're fucked if you are caught, it's immediate arrest, immediate extra charges(one time i got charged with breaking a city ordinance when i ran through some bushes because I was "damaging plants/wildlife"), hard ass evidence, just don't fuckin do it if the timing isn't right. You can get off with a lot less if you don't make their case a hassle. If a cop asked me to search my bag I wouldn't make up some weird bullshit, I'd tell there's no need for that because he wouldn't find anything and it would be a waste of both or our time, and he apparently is on a strict schedule if he's looking for someone that needs a searching. If he presses tell him you don't consent and ask "am I under arrest or something?"

to you minors worried about breaking curfew, sucks for you, maybe you should just practice til youre a legal adult, you probably won't be producing any street worthy shit til then anyway...

just use common sense, don't take you time. if a spot looks blown don't fuck with it, and if a situation gives you bad vibes quit it for the night and ditch your shit if things are obviously taking a bad turn.

please, don't bring stickers when you bomb either, if you get searched they instantly know what name to look for.

try to always have an excuse planned for why you are where you are at what time. it can be simple or detailed but I know I wouldn't trust myself to come up with something with an inquisitive dickhead cop on the spot.

I think that's all I want to say...so fucking sad that I've put this much thought into all of this with my graffiti talents.

also, what's wrong with polo? I thought those were nice people clothes?

oh shit more on running....have an escape plan for every situation no matter what it is. There are always a lot of scenarios, if the pig is speeding towards, make the break right away but....say you've just finished something, or you see a car coming so you stop what you are doing and begin to walk away, and you have everything on you. maybe you haven't been able to get the gloves off yet but whatever the case it's obvious that the tag 30 feet away was done by you. then, the car that was coming passes, its a cruiser. he stops, turns around, pulls up to the tag cause he smelled the fresh paint. don't gawk and stare and put all the adrenaline that's already pumping go to waste, as soon as you see that fatass turn his head start walking towards your exit path, doesn't matter if its in the other direction. he might take a minute to approach you to see how you act and if you play it cool you might buy some time. then, when he lurches at you make the break for it. also, he might be thirty feet away from you but he is in a car, if you can't run the way you are going for a VERY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME before getting to a place that the crown vic can't, you are fucked by the nightstick like whatsisface said. IF the only place that will ensure your getaway is next to the cop, this is how it goes. start walking toward him and let him come to you, when hes next to you and he stops the car start those footsies a peddlin. Depending on a lot of situations(including your physical health obviously) it could be better to get him on foot or keep him in the car, take solace in the fact that that is a factor that you can control if you aren't a dumbass.

remember that no matter who you are, you can only sprint so long, even with adrenaline. you need to make sure that you can loose sight of them and find a good outlet in as little time as possible, if you have to run as fast as you can for a quarter mile, don't waste your time. assuming that you are reading this thread because you don't have experience in chases, you may not know how fucking bad your legs can hurt after sprinting til you wanna die, and don't even get me started on doing that, then climbing something, then crouching while taking wide ass steps to go faster.....you could ache for days, which will suck even more if no one wants to bail you out.


I like to think that this will be helpful, especially to anyone that is in more of this exact situation. But no matter what I or any of these other dudes tell you, none of us will have been in as many foot chases as the officer on your ass. no matter how much rationalization you put into it, no matter how much planning, he's probably seen it before. plus, in about two minutes, he's not the only one you are worried, about, depending on how big your city is you could have five squad cars on a three block radius in that time. watch out, run fast, ditch everything fast, hide fast, change your appearance fast, , compose yourself fast, make the decision to hide or try to walk away after your face gets less red and you catch your breath fast. if you get caught, tell them who you are and that you know your rights and won't talk until you're either with your lawyer or until you get bailed out(depends on the situation yet again).

also, just don't fucking bomb if you can't do a throw in under three minutes(if you wanna get ballsy and paint a spot where cars pass frequently, don't hide on the other side of the wall every time they do), haven't painted for AT LEAST over a year, if you're intoxicated in any way, and if you don't know your surroundings.

a look out is also amazing to have, not one of your dumbass friends that doesn't paint but thinks it's cool, he'll just get you into trouble, find a partner that is equally or more talented, and take turns. and make sure they won't shit on you because they actually believe the cops when they're told it will lessen their charges.

okay...jesus fuck I think I'm done now.


krylon sucks