Fuck you, Lynne Cheney.

[Nekro]

As a proud gay man, I don't get offended when someone calls me gay. It's merely a statement of fact. What does piss me off is when people act like there's something wrong with being gay, when people suggest that it's something to be ashamed of.

John Kerry called out George Bush at the debate last week on the question of gay marriage. When asked if he thought homosexuality is "a choice," he said "If you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as."

Immediately after the debate, Lynne Cheney said that it was wrong for Kerry to acknowledge their gay daughter, who is a very very out of the closet lesbian who runs Dick Cheney's campaign and has done outreach work to gay voters for Coors brewing and the Bush Cheney campaign. She said "The only thing I can conclude is he is not a good man. I'm speaking as a mom, what a cheap and tawdry political trick."

Excuse me? The only "cheap and tawdry political trick" performed Wednesday night was the one turned by the Cheney parental units. It was they who used their daughter's sexuality as a weapon against John Kerry's sympathetic (and very general) remark. If only Dick and Lynne were so indignant when their daughter was legitimately under attack by an administration willing to write gays and lesbians out of the nation's founding document." (stolen from Slate, via andrew sullavin).

Also, aren't you the one that wrote this salacious bit of lesbian historical fiction? Let us go away together, away from the anger and imperatives of men. We shall find ourselves a secluded bower where they dare not venture. There will be only the two of us, and we shall linger through long afternoons of sweet retirement. In the evenings I shall read to you while you work your cross-stitch in the firelight. And then we shall go to bed, our bed, my dearest girl.

Fuck you Lynne Cheney.

[GamblersGrin]

i was flipping through the channels this morning when i stumbled across the mclaughlin group. they were riffing on this subject. mr. mclaughlin brought up footage of a a cheney town hall meeting he had where he brought up the fact his daughter was gay and he was proud.
yet today these same republicans are saying to bring up the fact his daughter is gay is not fair game.
its funny how republicans work, they use one piece of information and its meant to be positive and when kerry merely points out the fact that cheney has a gay daughter, whom cheney passed on the comments and questions regarding gay marriage in his debate w/ john edwards.
republicans reek of mothballs.

[Nekro]

Fuck Dick Cheney, too. If that heartless cyborg had any love for his daughter at all he would have resigned after Bush announced his support for the hate ammendment.

Fuck Mary Cheney. The jews, trade unionists, intellectuals, and artists had the sense not to work on Hitler's campaign for Chancellor or whatever you get elected to in Germany. Not you. You're out there making $100,000 a year selling out your own people. You're the most hated lesbian in America, and you deserve every drop of bile that flies your way.

[iloveboxcars]

^heh, sorry to take away from the seriousness of this thread, but i thought after fuck mary cheney there was a comma, not a period.

had me laughing for awhile. turns out im just tired.

[imported_El Mamerro]

I thought it was completely unnecessary for Kerry to bring up Cheney's daughter. But I did chuckle though.

[hobo knife]

^^^^

It was...I kind of saw it as a well deserved cheap shot...but a strategic one...Kerry was going after some of the christian fundamentals in the last debate with all the scripture quotes and reminding everyone that cheney has a GAY DUAGHTER might have hit home with some bible beaters...

...plus it was funny...

[seeking]

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Oct 18 2004, 07:24 AM
I thought it was completely unnecessary for Kerry to bring up Cheney's daughter. But I did chuckle though.
Quoted post


i thought it was a bit of a cheap shot too, but at the same time, fuck it. after comparing max cleland(sp?) to osama bin laden, telling conservative christians that kerry would outlaw the bible, and 'exposing' mccain's 'illegitamite' black child, they can hardly even begin to take any kind of moral stance.
republicans are like the 'bad guys' in WWF. they pull all kinds of dirty shit every time the ref turns around, but then bitch and complain when the 'good guys' do something even slightly off color.

it's funny, in addition to 12oz, i also post on a buddhist board. it's a very small group of people, and included one or two christians who also discuss things. the other day while arguing about politics, the christian, who is very christian mind you (and a parent of two children), in a fit of rage, told me to 'suck a fat cock'. this wasnt like a humerous sort of comment, dude was honestly pissed off. something about that just struck me as absolutely hillarious. the conservative christian was telling me to 'suck a fat cock' because he couldnt handle an intelligent discussion on politics.
obviously my point is fuck christians and republicans (and homosexual republicans of course.)

[POIESIS]

using the word "tawdry" to describe his intentions
tells you something about lynn.
psychologically speaking, i'd say her juices are
flowing for johnny boy.

[Nekro]

I'm glad JFK brought up Mary Cheney. I don't think it was cheap or a trick, I think it was a way to talk about gay marriage in an honest way. Too often people talk about gay marriage as if it's some abstract concept from the sky that will only affect "the family" or the "sanctitiy of marriage." When we talk about gay marriage we're talking about people who love each other and have every right to have their relationships recognized under the law. Mary Cheney, while totally morally bankrupt and willing to sell out her own people for politics, is one of these people. This is why there is nothing wrong with bringing her up in a discussion of gay marriage, just like there's nothing wrong with bringing up Dick Gebhardt's lesbian daughter Chrissy or Aalan Keyes' lesbian daughter Maya.

Mary Cheney doesn't keep her sexual orientation private, she's an out and proud lesbian. Her dad doesn't keep it private, so why should John Kerry?

[justaname]

Originally posted by seeking+Oct 18 2004, 06:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (seeking - Oct 18 2004, 06:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-El Mamerro@Oct 18 2004, 07:24 AM
I thought it was completely unnecessary for Kerry to bring up Cheney's daughter. But I did chuckle though.
Quoted post

it's funny, in addition to 12oz, i also post on a buddhist board.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]
seeking do you mind if i ask for a link to that buddhist board? my family budhist so i just want to see what this side of religion is thinking about this matter.

it was unnecessary for kerry to brough up that fact but it was a debate so i enjoyed it. Bush wasn't entertaining enough for me....

[seeking]

i really wish that kerry would have handled the whole gay-marriage issue a bit differently.
i wish he would have pointed out that the 'sanctity' of marriage is completely destroyed when we have game shows that pick the bride and groom, so to tell a couple that truely loves eachother that they cant be married also, is a crock of shit. it's such an obvious, easy, no-nonsense answer that i think people would have had no choice but to respect it.
he could have still said that his religious beliefs lead him to believe in man-woman unions, but that his religious beliefs govern how he lives his life, not how he feels others should live theres.

actually, fuck it, i should just run for president.

justaname,
it wasn't about this topic at all, it was just a very brief, general, political discussion.

i suppose i shouldnt speak for all buddhists, but i'd be absolutely amazed if any buddhist organization took a stance other than that of complete love, compassion and acceptance of everyone with no attention what-so-ever paid to that persons choice of sexual preference.

and absolutely nothing personal, but i'd rather not share the board. it is VERY small and contains a whole lot of personal details about me that i would not be comfortable having connected to the graffiti world in any way.
i hope you can understand.

besides, i'm sure there are plenty of buddhist forums with a lot more discussion on it. just check with google.

[war pigs]

thing is tho...cheney brought her into it at the RNC...he was trying to stress the fact that "hey we don't hate gays..the president and i don't agree on everything....i have a gay daughter" in short...

it's not like kerry outed cheney's daughter...and it's not like she's a private figure...if kerry was on some dickhead shit like that, he coulda mentioned bush's slutty daughters as a sign of the "good wholesome family morals" bush is such an advocate of...

john edwards acknowledged cheney's daughter in their debates...and dick cheney thanked him for the "kind words"...

it's not like kerry came out on some "yeah you know..dick's daughter is a clam bumper"...he came out respectful..he could have handled it differently but i don't see the big deal, even tho the republicans are spinning into some major fiasco...

they're trying to play kerry as this bad guy...and appeal to the lowest common denominator...

[imported_El Mamerro]

He didn't come out disrespectful at all, what he said was perfectly tasteful... but it wasn't necessary to bring her up to make his point, the point needed no specific examples. Bringing up Mary Cheney is the kind of thing you can be 100% certain is gonna piss Republicans off, and in these last weeks where getting the undecided votes is so important, it doesn't seem smart to throw something like that on the table at the risk of offending right-leaning undecideds. I don't understand why anyone's surprised at the outrage, the second he said it I was like "Ooooooh, that's gonna taste like shit for Cheney..."

Did I think it was deserved? Hell yes. Did I think it was smart? Not much.

[ModelCitizen]

I think it was nader who made the clam quote:

"Corporate control of the american political system is at all time high and must be immediately reformed. Plus cheney's daughter is a clam bumper."

[ODS-1]

http://www.njweedman.com/dick_cheney.jpg
"Mention my gay daughter again and I cut your balls off you sonofabitch."Grrrrr.."

[ODS-1]

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/graphics/cheney_020607.jpg
And on a side note.

[ghostvandal]

nekro i was thinking the exact same thing as i was reading the newspaper. the republicains makes me think of childish little boys in primary school that are so hypocrits and will use anything just to win their cause. I dont think votin republicain is good for the rights of gay and lesbians at all. I d think they are the one that are proving they are bad men, using their girl like you said..it just proves the opposite as they are saying against Kerry.

[Dick Quickwood]

anyone read about her womens' group? it's like an anti-woman group, weird.

[Nekro]

Independent womens forum? The scary thing is that this group of women who are astonishingly antifeminist is getting a ton of money to go train Iraqi women in running for office and participating in democracy. It's be like sending the klan to repair race relations between blacks and whites.

[justaname]

Originally posted by seeking@Oct 18 2004, 11:21 AM
i suppose i shouldnt speak for all buddhists, but i'd be absolutely amazed if any buddhist organization took a stance other than that of complete love, compassion and acceptance of everyone with no attention what-so-ever paid to that persons choice of sexual preference.
and absolutely nothing personal, but i'd rather not share the board. it is VERY small and contains a whole lot of personal details about me that i would not be comfortable having connected to the graffiti world in any way.
i hope you can understand.

besides, i'm sure there are plenty of buddhist forums with a lot more discussion on it. just check with google.
Quoted post

i agree with you seeking. i've been to my native country and visited many temples, talk to some monks. the buddhist principles is just like what you said "complete love, compassion and acceptance of everyone with no attention what-so-ever paid to that persons choice of sexual preference." this christianity against homosexualality and shit like that is just ridiculous since we are all "god's children". this whole gay marriage thing connecting to politics, even the result in talking about changing the constitution is just fucking GAY. im suppose you are buddhism?

[Weapon X]

Originally posted by seeking+Oct 18 2004, 09:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (seeking - Oct 18 2004, 09:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-El Mamerro@Oct 18 2004, 07:24 AM
I thought it was completely unnecessary for Kerry to bring up Cheney's daughter. But I did chuckle though.
Quoted post

republicans are like the 'bad guys' in WWF. they pull all kinds of dirty shit every time the ref turns around, but then bitch and complain when the 'good guys' do something even slightly off color.Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

haha!

[seeking]

justaname,
i wouldn't say i'm buddhist, but i've 'studied' it for a long time, and it makes up a large part of my personal ideology.

i'd be interested in hearing what country you're from, stories from temples, etc. feel free to hit me with a PM. no need to clog up this thread with our conversation.

[bodice_ripper]

I think the problem is with the gay people on this one. I know we all want to be accepted by our friends and family but, for thousands of years "marriage" has been a man and a woman. So let them keep it. It *is* a strange warping of marriage to make it same gender. it's just not the same thing.

And we don't have to force society to believe that a gay union is marriage. why do we need that approval.

I'd be happy with a legal civil union thank you, with rights in housing, hospital visits, etc. but it's not a wedding. Eneither me nor my girlfriend are going to be a husband.....

[!@#$%]

it may have been unneccesary to bring it up
but the criticism of it is just more of the same republican/christian double standard.

they want government out of people's lives?
but they are anti abortion, anti gay rights and pro patriot act.
:confused2:

[Weapon X]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper@Oct 20 2004, 09:46 AM
I think the problem is with the gay people on this one. I know we all want to be accepted by our friends and family but, for thousands of years "marriage" has been a man and a woman. So let them keep it. It *is* a strange warping of marriage to make it same gender. it's just not the same thing.

And we don't have to force society to believe that a gay union is marriage. why do we need that approval.

I'd be happy with a legal civil union thank you, with rights in housing, hospital visits, etc. but it's not a wedding. Eneither me nor my girlfriend are going to be a husband.....



Quoted post


go bodice! that's my opinion, too. I'm glad someone of your persuasion agrees with me.

Yo, Nekro, is it true that the gays generally dislike Lynne Cheney? Like, in your homo circles or whatever? Is she considered a sellout? Because even I think so...

[bodice_ripper]

it just strikes me as a little insecure that the "gay community" postures about diversity, and then needs validation through mimicing straight rituals. why?

[SteveAustin]

its funny you mention that bodice. I was actually just thinking...why does the gay community care so much for a religous based ritual?

fuck religion.

[Nekro]

I don't represent the "gay community," but I get the feeling that she's not a very popular girl.

Bodice: For thousands of years women were the property of their husbands. For thousands of years women weren't allowed to vote. For thousands of years slavery was legal. Just because something's been around for a long time doesn't mean it's a good thing.

The tough thing about this debate is that the institution of marriage is actually 3 things: a social institution, a religious sacrament, and a set of laws. All I want is equality under the law. Equality under law means calling a gay marriage the same thing as a straight marriage.

A "civil union" ain't going to be the same as a marriage under law, it's going to be equal like schools for black people were equal. It's going to be separate but equal, and separate but equal is never equal and is always unconstitutional.

I could see a solution whereby we remove the word "marriage" from the books completely and just give civil unions to all couples, gay or straight. Leave marriages to the churches, get the government out of religion.

Finally, I could give a fuck about wether or not you want to marry your girlfriend. What I do give a fuck about is wether or not you have the option to. We should have all the same rights as straight people, and that means we should be allowed to marry the people we fall in love with.

[justaname]

Originally posted by SteveAustin@Oct 20 2004, 10:47 AM
its funny you mention that bodice. I was actually just thinking...why does the gay community care so much for a religous based ritual?

fuck religion.
Quoted post

maybe a "wedding" or a "certificate" is a legitimate way to let others know that they are one? same as you need to go out and vandalize to be a legitimate writer or to be recognize as one

feel free to bash

[seeking]

** i wrote all this before reading nekros post. had i read his, i wouldnt have bothered.

i think it's the principle more than the practice.
'marriage' is a religious process. the government should have absolutely ZERO say in the actions of a religion on a matter like this. if the pope doesnt want to sanction gay marriages, fine, all the gay catholics can take it up with him. the problem is that bush is trying to change the constitution to reflect the views of a particular religion, and even if the 'majority' hold that belief, it's still complete bullshit. for a long time, the 'majority' of the country felt it was right to kill black people for talking to white women, does that mean the talking to white women by negroes should be illegal too?

this shouldnt even be an issue the government is discussing.
'civil' unions should be legal and equally binding for everyone. a gay couple should have the exact same rights as a straight couple. if hell-bound homos want to hold their 'civil union' in a church and call it a 'marriage', then that's up to their particular faith. the government shouldnt have shit to do with it.

i think most (if not all) of us are pretty much on the same side here. i think theres just a bit of confusion as to what is legal right now, and what seperates what from what else. i know that right now, i could marry a woman in either a 'marriage' ceremony, or a 'civil' ceremony, and both would yield the same results. why can't that same choice be extended to gay people? how is that hurting anyone?

ps, fuck christians.

[seeking]

nekro,
it's too bad i'm not a homo, otherwise i might hit on you.
;)

good post.

[!@#$%]

there are some gay catholics out there.
not all gays are non-religious heathens.

it also seems to be human nature to long for acceptance by the majority.
it's the kinda thing that could force a cultural change too.
if marriage goes gay, maybe more people would be accepting of gay families and adoption.


and yeah, i'm down for a civil union option for all.
especially as a heterosexual woman who will never take a vow before 'god' in a church.

word to seeks, i agree that marriage should be relegated to the church, the gov't should get out of it

[seeking]

honestly, what justification does the govt give for having a hand in it right now? the govt. wouldnt try and govern who can get communion, or which jews can have a bahtmitza, why do they think this is ok?

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Nekro@Oct 20 2004, 07:04 PM


I could see a solution whereby we remove the word "marriage" from the books completely and just give civil unions to all couples, gay or straight. Leave marriages to the churches, get the government out of religion.

Quoted post




this is what I was refering to. I don't really see why you went bats at me.

i stand by my original statement though. I don't feel the need to mimic straight behaviour to validate my love for someone. I want my rights and that's enough for me.

you do your thing

[seeking]

Originally posted by symbols@Oct 20 2004, 03:15 PM
there are some gay catholics out there.
not all gays are non-religious heathens.
Quoted post


there are also black skinheads. i really dont people sometimes. ha.

and i would be willing to wager that the percentage of 'religious' or 'spiritual' homosexuals is virtually the same as their socio-economical straight counterparts.


we've stolen another thread. ha.

[seeking]

Originally posted by bodice_ripper@Oct 20 2004, 03:23 PM
I don't feel the need to mimic straight behaviour to validate my love for someone. I want my rights and that's enough for me.

Quoted post


marriage is not 'straight' behavior anymore than voting in the 1800's was 'white male' behavior.
mimicing straight behavior would be sucking dick.
i know plenty of straight people who think marriage is a crock of shit. it has nothing to do with sexual preference.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by seeking+Oct 20 2004, 07:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (seeking - Oct 20 2004, 07:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-bodice_ripper@Oct 20 2004, 03:23 PM
I don't feel the need to mimic straight behaviour to validate my love for someone. I want my rights and that's enough for me.

Quoted post


marriage is not 'straight' behavior anymore than voting in the 1800's was 'white male' behavior.
mimicing straight behavior would be sucking dick.
i know plenty of straight people who think marriage is a crock of shit. it has nothing to do with sexual preference.
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

I think your anaolgy is weak. but that is neither here or there.
Lets move out of the realms of intangible ideals and references to other repressed groups shall we?

*I* (me, myself. not speaking on anyones behalf but my own) have come to this view after some thought. I'd love a wedding. It used to really get to me that I wouldn't have one, and it still kind of does.
But anytime i mentioned it to people who weren't close friends I'd get the same few questions "Which one of you would wear the dress?" and variations there on. I used to get very irrate about it, wondering why some one would ask somehting that stupid, when me and my girlfriend and both female and we like it that way. Then it dawned on me that of course people would ask that, marriage is a very ingrained idea in their heads, and it involves a man and a woman. Which is not what I had in mind.
From talking to my friends, it seems that there are aspects of my relationship that are fairly unique to a girl-girl relationship. We aren't the same as the straight couples I know.

I understand that other feel differently. good for them.
Now, if other gay people want to bash their heads against a wall on this one, let them, but they should know that they are doing it for themselves, not their repressed community.

All I want is my rights, ie to enter a contract with another consenting adult re: housing, visitation in hospitals or prisons, wills, next of kin etc.

[Nekro]

"All I want is my rights, ie to enter a contract with another consenting adult re: housing, visitation in hospitals or prisons, wills, next of kin etc."

Excactly.

[bodice_ripper]

Originally posted by Nekro@Oct 20 2004, 09:23 PM
"All I want is my rights, ie to enter a contract with another consenting adult re: housing, visitation in hospitals or prisons, wills, next of kin etc."

Excactly.
Quoted post



i know, I did point out after you replied to me that the only actual difference we seemed to have on this one was calling it "marriage", which i don't see a being terribly important, esp if its a major stumbling block to rights.

I would completely oppose the churches being forced to recognise gay marriage. that would be awful.

[Rojotelefono]

Ditto.

I want to be able to be considered my lover's spouse with all that entails, both socially and legally. AAhhh, what they said. I've just said it all the same but differently worded.

[fatalist]

The term Marriage comes from the bible and religion to begin with. It amazes me that a lot of gay people stride for the term "Married". In reality, you're bitching to the government about being able to "live together" under benifits and taxes, etc. Whatever. However some people STILL oppose the term "civil union" as if it's offending them or something. You want to be married? Go to the church and ask for "God's Blessing". That's the CHURCH, that's RELIGION. You want to be "one" under the government... stride for civil unions and the same benifits.

IMO Marriage within the government should be considered as a union, and if you want to be "Married" to someone go to the church and get the blessing... they can decide if it's honored by "God" or not. That way, everyone is happy.

my two cents...

[seeking]

we don't want your two cents, we want your two breasts.
what's the hold up?

seeks/just ignore me

[fatalist]

seeking ...i'm starting to feel a totalitarian vibe among this forum.... :shook:

[seeking]

haha. i wouldn't consider it 'totalitarian'....it's more of a peer pressure lead tradition. it's not a board mandate, we just try to make new people think it is, so they don't realize they actually have a choice. it's basically just an inside joke that we sort of use as a test (and as a ploy to see boobs, because we're all 15 here) to weed out the whores.
as i said, just ignore me (but as i also said...put em on the proverbial glass, naw'mean.)

[Rojotelefono]

hahahaha they just bounce, ya know