The U.S.' first significant foreign-policy move

[imported_Tesseract]

U.S. recognizes Macedonia
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2004/11/04/2002082773.jpg





Friday, November 05, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.



By The Associated Press and Reuters

SKOPJE, Macedonia — The United States has recognized the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia as "Macedonia," the name strongly opposed by neighboring Greece, which has claimed for decades that the use of the name Macedonia implied territorial claims toward Greece.

Macedonia is also the name of Greece's northern province, birthplace of Alexander the Great. Macedonians are Slav people whose language is similar to that of Bulgaria, but who also claim descent from Alexander the Great, the Greek conqueror and "King of Macedonians."

It was the U.S.' first significant foreign-policy move following the re-election of President Bush on Wednesday.

U.S. officials said it was intended to reward Macedonia and undermine a nationalist-inspired referendum on Sunday which could reduce the rights of Macedonia's ethnic Albanian minority.

The recognition caused jubilation in Macedonia, an ally of the Americans in the Iraq military coalition, but outrage in Greece, a NATO member, where the news came out of the blue.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher announced the move yesterday, saying it was "an appropriate and correct step at this juncture ... to support a path of openness, stability and democracy in Macedonia."

In Athens, Greek Foreign Minister Petros Moliviatis said he summoned the U.S. ambassador to Greece, Thomas Miller, to lodge a formal complaint.

But Macedonian President Branko Crvenkovski hailed the U.S. decision as the country's biggest diplomatic victory since it gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 and later joined the United Nations under the name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," or FYRM, to sidestep Greek objections.

Sunday's referendum aims to quash legislation giving control over a number of municipalities to the restive ethnic Albanians, who make up about a quarter of the country's 2.2 million people. The United States and EU officials have urged Macedonians not to participate in the vote.

International officials have backed the legislation because it is in line with key provisions of a 2001 Western-brokered peace deal that ended six months of fighting between government troops and ethnic Albanian rebels. Bordered to the north by Kosovo, Macedonia came close to civil war in 2001 during seven months of conflict between state security forces and an Albanian guerrilla army.

Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company

Source (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002082701_macedonia05.html)

[SteveAustin]

wow. wasting no time at all.
interesting how the benefactor happens to be helping with Iraq and Greece is part of NATO.

[imported_Tesseract]

exactly..its funny..i just edited to highlight that.

So whats the moral?
You're either with us or against us, hahaha

[imported_El Mamerro]

What about the referendum dealie? How fucked would the Albanian minority be if it happened?

[Poop Man Bob]

Freedom's on the march.

[CIPHER_one]

I mean, to play devil's advocate I suppose, is it really that big of a deal? Isn't it just changing a territory's name? And it kinda makes sense that if a country that was with the US ona decision, such as the war, was working towards this than the US would agree with it as well.

Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture.

[porque]

...what did we recognize them as before this?..'the nation that wishes to be referred to as macedonia'?...

...cipher...think of it this way...imagine that all the other nations in the world suddenly started referring to mexico as texas...and began claiming that george dubya the great was of texas blood...wouldn't your national pride be hurt?...and just think of all the other states complaining about 'those damn texan imigrants' stealing all their jobs...

[CIPHER_one]

yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I guess I'm just worried people will start over-reacting at every single decision Bush makes, just because they think he'll destroy the world. Although I think his moves should be scrutinized (?), I also think his decisions should be looked at realistically.

[kaesthebluntedwonder]

If democracy were an object, it would be in the form of a brown pasty substance, similar to that of shit, which the US will continue to smear across the globe. We need some sand paper type toilet paper.

[Poop Man Bob]

Freedom's hard work.

[imported_Tesseract]

Cipher and porque, your 2 posts hit the nail hard on the head.
So lets see, The whole eastern block collapsed in the early 90's and a million new countries poped out as ethnic and religious groups started to autonomise and gain their independance. FYROM(macedonia according to bush as of now) is a very small area that shares borders with greece and used to belong to yugoslavia. They're slavic and they are for the most part christian orthodoxes like the greeks are. They started claiming the name macedonia mostly based on the fact that they belong in the area that in Alexanders era they were part of the kingdom..still you gotta understand that Alexander dominated that eras known world from the balcans ro todays persia where he died. The main historical reason why the name isnt proper is that there where never greek tribes there, they never spoke greek and they never belonged to the whole thing culturally and pollitically. Under the same spectrum iraqi's could say that they wanna be named Macedonia aswell. Anyway, since they're so close to the area an arrangement was being made with the greeks so they could use the word macedonia but not alone...there was an arrangement for a better name than FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia) but shit turned bad cause both countries right wing goverments got all butthurt and nationalistic..so after lots of diplomatic drama and grudge FYROM was on the table.
In my opinion Macedonia equals greece in the exact way porque sais it..still to me thats not the biggest issue here. The big issue is that shit like that has way more concequences than it appears. After those last events all greek priests and rightwing people will start protesting in the way right wing people do it...ignorantly and filled with racism and nationalistic ideas..same happens on FYROM which is a broken state from birth (these guys have mad problems). As you understand developments of that kind can only harm and poison things between two countries. Imagine that these guys get pure hell cause they wouldnt backup and we have them on embargo, their only link with the western world is broken. All that is sad and stupid...whats more annoying is that BUSH recognises them, while we're a member of NATO with many US army bases on our soil..simply because they belong in that so insignifiqant axis against terrorism. Pretty much thats the only reason Poland entered the EU aswell.
What i'm trying to say is that one bad brings another, our current PM is right wing with close ties to the church so idiocy will spark faster than you could imagine. Bottom line, almost all reasons towards this situation are wrong. The US overides the UN again and burns more bridges, Greece goes 10 years back with all the biggots start flexing their shit and FYROMers remain starving and with fake hopes...LOSE-LOSE-LOSE

way to go Bush,
i hope all i type makes sense

[imported_El Mamerro]

Ah, I see. yes, that indeed is opening up a huge world of shit.

But my question though... there is mention there that part of the decision is to avoid a referendum that would restrict the rights of an Albanian minority (described here simply as "restive"). Is this true or not? What alternatives are there to prevent this?

[imported_Tesseract]

The story with albanians is very complicated. This people suffered one of the worst regimees on earth for many many years...imagine electrical power and water only working for 2 hours daily, imagine ABSOLUTELY no freedom and a system that creates hungry illiterate hatefilled people. I hope i dont sound racist as i just highlight that conditions can do that to people and i have no beef with people. Back in the 90's half the albanians went to greece and italy as refugees and the rest stayed back. What you have to understand is that the Balcans form a really torn and fucked up place after socialism failed and religion started playing a role again. The balcans are split 50-50 to christians and muslims and after the breakdown you have minorities every 50 km's in each country..its really terrible and beefious. I'm saying that to highlight the fact that claiming the referendum as part of the decision is so selective for the whole Balcans that it automatically translates the move into a reward for FYROM for their position towards the war against iraq.
No external force can dissolve matters so wide and intense, futhermore it creates far more instability to the area when you play favorites.

[CIPHER_one]

Tess,

Gotcha....mostly...

[CIPHER_one]

I use to date a girl in elementary school named Tess.

[imported_Tesseract]

reason why tesser would be more fit...

[!@#$%]

i'm sorry.

i'm still depressed about the election results.
so depressed.
i can't watch the news anymore.

and this is only the beginning.

[23578]

What body of law exists to recognize that referendum, FRYOM?, E.U.?, or another, I couldn't tell from reading the article.

Oh, and Tesseract is also the name of a band on that Ozzie Ozzfest-Metal Band reality show. And the name of a book by Copeland. And some sort of geometrical figure? too.

[imported_Tesseract]

Originally posted by 23578@Nov 7 2004, 12:48 PM
What body of law exists to recognize that referendum, FRYOM?, E.U.?, or another, I couldn't tell from reading the article.

Oh, and Tesseract is also the name of a band on that Ozzie Ozzfest-Metal Band reality show. And the name of a book by Copeland. And some sort of geometrical figure? too.
Quoted post


The EU,


the book is by Garland and the geometrical shape is suposed to be a 4 dimensional cube.

[CIPHER_one]

ha...right...tesser.

[effyoo]

Originally posted by Tesseract@Nov 6 2004, 11:53 AM
beefious
Quoted post



haha, awesome

[mental invalid]

well im glad they are getting something in return for the 500 hundred dollars they put towards iraq and the 2 troops they sent to clean up dinner trays...

thanks for being part of the team...

[imported_Tesseract]

Its dream team sonny...:)

[ledzep]

the coalition of the cool.

[KaBar2]

I think the effort to make the U.S. war on terrorism look like an international effort is largely was waste of time. It's us and UK, and the UK is probably only in it so they can say "We backed your play." The rest of them are more or less like the Peewees, fun to have around, but worthless in a fight.

[AORAone]

i agree that its a waste of time, everyone knows whats up, and its not like its not completly obvious in the first place. come on now. the only reason no one else is doing shit, is because they dont really like whats going on i presume, but they know, in a sense, some of it must be done. as kabar said, its good to know that they are indeed our allies, but to ask much more than that would be a waste of time at this point.

[imported_Tesseract]

The war against terrorism as the US fights it is a waste of time...you havent achived ANYTHING. The reasons why only you and the UK are on it is cause you're the ones that benefit the most..reason why it started in the first place. And yeah..thats a great way of disrespecting the lifes of all these polish, australian and whatever else people lost their life fighting your war.

[mental invalid]

Originally posted by KaBar2@Nov 10 2004, 08:05 AM
I think the effort to make the U.S. war on terrorism look like an international effort is largely was waste of time. It's us and UK, and the UK is probably only in it so they can say "We backed your play." The rest of them are more or less like the Peewees, fun to have around, but worthless in a fight.
Quoted post



DONT FORGET POLAND!!!!