[Walid Jumblat]

Originally Posted by RIPS (View Original Post)

but you said that guns are the problem, that means that even if obama bans all the evil rifle and guns there will still be violence? but he said that they will stop all this violence!? omg how will i know defend myself?? obama please ban the knife (like UK) and also the sticks and hammers and stones !!

Yyyyup, you're retarded.


The violence doesn't end, it's just not as devastating. A person with a knife is less able to kill many people in a short amount of time.

The fact you need that spelled out leaves me astounded.

The fact that I keep coming in here is pretty astounding too.....

[RIPS]

"The violence doesn't end, it's just not as devastating." i prefer being shot with a 9mm than stabbed

[Fist 666]

really? you'd rather be dead than injured? does your family feel that way? do 6 year olds feel that way?

could you just clarify if you're a troll or not?

[Realism]

For real man, you're really taking it to another level if you're not.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

You guys are ignoring what the problem is.

Why are these people doing these things? This isn't something that has gone on in our society since the dawn of it. It is something that has started to occur only within the last 30 years, and as we get closer to the present it has happened more and more.

Again, I want to point out the pharmaceutical industry, and these medications a large percentage of people are on, for various different reasons.

Here is a great read, I am not done with it but it does she a lot of light onto this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Medication-Mad.../dp/031256550X

A large portion of these crimes are done by people whom are taking some form if medication. You could point to their illness, but that would just show how naive you are as far as psychiatric problems effect someone. Most people with disorders turn inward and are self destructive rather than lashing out and hurting others. I have worked in a hospital and can confirm this. I've also spent some time a psychiatric hospitals for seminars and training in other area's and workers in those places will repeat the same things I have just said to you.

You could also acknowledge the fact that in most cases with these guns they have been obtained legally, so how would stretching these laws that you would like to see even further help limit the problem. Are we now going to charge and attempt to incriminate people for not locking up there guns the proper way? Are we going to pass laws that force police to go into people's homes who own weapons to insure that they are locked up? I do not agree with such policies and these would lead to further problems.

Also scaring people away from psychiatric help if they need it, is not a good course of action.

A few things to consider before you go banging the drum.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

Also, I know this is Alex Jones, and perhaps not all of this is 100% accurate. Even if this is the case this is the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=LgraVpwiM6Y

[Fist 666]

we are not ignoring the problem.
we are simply willing to admit that it is a complex problem that INCLUDES our access to guns.

260 mil over how many years? vs how many have been saved or been given the chance to be alive at all via their government's oppressive infrastructures of running water, sewers, electricity, roads, etc etc. a world with out government is a world of africa. have fun.

and mclovin: you're seriously fucking retarded. you haven't grasped the most basic elements of any conversation that has happened in CF or ch0.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

The 20th and 21st centuries, not ancient history or medieval times.

I wasn't suggesting that government vanish from the Earth. It should be rolled back and controlled though.

Public education is horrible, which is a contributing factor. Defense spending is out of control. Follow the Constitution. That isn't what this thread is about though.

You are naive and borderline delusional to think that those kinds of atrocities that were brought up can not happen in the United States, or where ever you currently lay your head.

[morton]

nvm

[McLovin]

Fist i know..i don't read through the thread first before i post anything that's one of my habits.. Anyway, I think it all has to do with the pharmaceutical & psychiatric industry. Thomas Szasz (rip) has been talking about this type of stuff for many years. @ILOTS, I think you would like his work if you haven't heard of him already

[RIPS]

the real problem, the origin of all problems is the eradication of all moral values.

[RIPS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElJFYwRtrH4

[Walid Jumblat]

Originally Posted by RIPS (View Original Post)

the real problem, the origin of all problems is the eradication of all moral values.

Who's moral values though?

Morals are a subjective concept and nothing stays the same forever. People always fall in to the easy state of saying 'back in the day...', however usually when you look back things aren't as rosy we tend to believe. Moral values have not been eradicated at all, they've simply changed with the times. I mean how is society, technology, demographics, economics, etc. all supposed to develop while societal values remaining static? It obviously can't and won't happen.

And again, nothing stays the same anyway. Existence is change, everything moves, everything ages. Nothing stays the same. Well, except for the Bill of Rights, I guess. Everything changes with the time and the BoR stays stuck in the times it was penned, and people who don't understand or accept change want to conserve some of its principles in a sort of aspirational nostalgia.

[Realism]

He's just going to answer your point with some wingnut Youtube link or meme.

Thread's a mess.

[RIPS]

no moral values at all, just some continues liberal conditioning

[Mr. Incognito]

yeah, i get it. it's a complex issue in which guns do play a part, which is why I've said im not really against "universal" background checks, stricter penalties for offenders and higher mental health checks for firearm purchasing.


so what about my state limiting magazines to 7 rounds from 10? outright banning the sale of AR15 rifles, or similar caliber rifles with certain cosmetic features such as a pistol grip? which does NOTHING to alter the weapon itself besides aesthetically. or having to renew my pistol permit every 5 years, which will require no more than a typical background check, i assume the same used now for when we buy ammunition, but with a large added fee really just used as a revenue maker? are these solutions to the ever so complex problem of people committing mass murder? i doubt it, and apparently vice pres. Biden isn't too sure either:

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...shootings?lite



a complex issue with everyone really only going after one thing...

[Walid Jumblat]

Yeah, mag reductions are pointless. I think there will be a lot of examples where the govt takes aim at easy targets. That way they can be seen taking action without taking serious political risks...., and maybe raise some revenue on the side.

[Fist 666]

I completely agree on the mag issue, it solves zero problems.
I think the working definition of "assault rifle" is pretty much bullshit.

guns are the easy target, they might also be the easiest target to make a difference in. reinventing our society to give a shit about mental health is going to be insane (pun!) monetarily, culturally, and functionally. There is no quick fix, no change that can happen within one presidential term, no culture shift that can happen quick enough to stop the next bunch of outrageous shootings to happen. politicians will say there is, and will act shocked when a someone who can shoot knocks out a high number with a bunch of low cap mags and a handgun. the NRA will say "told ya so," the media will glorify the shooter and we as a nation will be just as fucked.

i dunno, its loaded and i don't claim to have a solution.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTdhV...ature=youtu.be

"Governer Cuomo and Mayor Bloomberg said assault weapons are weapons of war and don't belong on the streets of America, if that's true why do the police need them? And who are they at war with?"

Checkmate.

[Fist 666]

They are at war with criminals, pretty straight forward.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

So you are now comparing day to day policing to combat in war? Haven't seen anything like that my entire life. Have you ever been to NY?

And to your points, if a random gun fight were to break out at let's just say...the Ferry, on either side, Staten Island or Manhattan. How would Police walking around with MP-5's and other high powered assault rifles be any different from a regular citizen acting on his own with a hand gun in a high traffic area?

[Fist 666]

no, not day to day policing. though as more and more mass murders happen it becomes more day to day.

cops don't carry m4s or mp5s on their backs during routine patrols, they keep them in their trunks or armories for use in extreme situations. i don't want to fall into some line of defending cops, because thats just not my stance, but there are frequently situations that merit them being armed with more than a glock 22.
(i've been to NY, but not spent enough time to feel like i could possibly speak to local norms).

the ferry scenario is set up for their to be no proper response. if its a crowded, high traffic area then guns aren't the answer period, not for cops or civilians. less than lethal tools come into play in those scenarios. (which i've argued in pretty much all the cop threads are under used).

i don't have a solid stance on this. I feel that SWAT/special teams are needed and justified in having the arms they do. Just like NRA arguments for arming yourself because police are too slow, sometimes SWAT is equally far behind from regular police arrival. those arms in extreme situations can make the difference.
which goes back to my continuing concern of police stress shooting standards being way too low and wholly unacceptable.

[Cunt_Eastwood]

All im saying is personally id rather have a gun knowing alot of other people have guns, than not having a gun and knowing some people have guns, a majority of which would be up to no good.

We all have some fantasy island shit of how this issue could be solved.
Lets look at the facts:

There are already millions of registered guns in the US.
There are already millions of untraceable guns in the US.

So do you let the cops go door to door and round up the millions of guns that (most) law
abiding citizens(hate this term) registered and had for hunting, or self defense of their home and in the wake of that leave a fairly large window of time open for goons already armed to be the only ones other than the Jakes with guns?

To me, a fair compromise would be just making it harder for psychos & idiots to get guns, and anyone who passes the criteria has to have some sort of training, certification, register the fucking thing and ill even throw the gun control persuasion a bone and agree that we don't need fucking M16's and such on the streets.

But again I also truly believe that if you give em an inch...the mother fuckers will take a mile.

[Fist 666]

we agree.

where i get concerned is the classification of 'psychos and idiots' and how we treat mental illness. i made heavy handed jokes about registering all offenders of depression, mpd, bipolar, add, etc when the NRA first said that was the answer. I'm surprised that idea is continuing to gain momentum.

I fear the government registering every troubled kid, combat vet, and every-sort-of-victim who seeks counseling for an extended period of time with a permanent record that limits his rights more than I fear the encroachment of my rights by making me register and jump through more hoops to obtain my weapons and rounds.

i'm also worried about hipaa going to the wind because of this.

[ILOTSMYBRAIN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=xZKVSNjlSp0#!

You should actually watch this, as opposed to most of the other things I post which clearly are clicked and dismissed.

I could careless about Luke and his intro, but listen to Joe Lozito's story.

Here's another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=BjnxAOd9M4E