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God is merciful to ALL his creation, and he doesnt burden a soul more than it can bear. So those Aborhiginee tribes will be tested according to their abilities , just like mentally retarded people and others who didnt receive the message properly.
People will naturally be skeptical, but doesn't he give most of us a long enough life to check it out? check the proof, Cross reference, The words in the Quran have never been changed since it was revealed. Also there are too many scientific miricles in the Quran Unlike many other scriptures whose predictions were disproved, the Quran has too many miricles and things that They were not aware of during the time of Muhammad
Also Allah laid down a challenge in the Qur’an to mankind in general and to the Arabs in particular: "And if you are in doubt concerning that which we have sent down to our slave (Muhammad) then produce a chapter like it, and call your supporters and helpers besides Allah, if you are truthful!" (Surah al-Baqarah 2:23)
So to disregard it is to disbeleive and to disbeleive is to be thrown into the hellfire for ever. And When I became a muslim I had a problem with this , because I said "why would God punish someone forever? So the reply was that only God knows that if he allowed them to live forever they would disbeleive in him forever. So which one of the blessings from your lord will you deny?
SF the animals will become dust, part of the earth.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by Krakatau@Aug 8 2005, 03:48 AM Cool. I don't really care. Let's turn this thread into one about neurotheology. That would be more interesting.
neurotheology is disbeleif.......just another new theory.
see, it goes to show , people all want some out of body transcendent
experience so they can think it was some spiritual Godly experience.
Its just entertainment, like a movie, or drugs, push button spirituality.
Whomever God guides none can misguide and whomever God misgudes none can guide. Simple..
And sometimes our love for a thing may blind us from ever knowing the truth about that thing.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 10:17 PM neurotheology is disbeleif.......just another new theory.
see, it goes to show , people all want some out of body transcendent
experience so they can think it was some spiritual Godly experience.
Isn't our perception of god relevant to the nature of god? Or perhaps a schizophrenic cat named mohammed's perception 2000 years ago? What's with these bumper sticker quotes of yours? You going to address any of the other things I brought up in my other posts? Or just what you feel like?
Living in a deforested environment has made me manic.
Originally posted by Krakatau+Aug 8 2005, 04:27 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krakatau - Aug 8 2005, 04:27 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 10:17 PM neurotheology is disbeleif.......just another new theory.
see, it goes to show , people all want some out of body transcendent
experience so they can think it was some spiritual Godly experience.
Isn't our perception of god relevant to the nature of god? Or perhaps a schizophrenic cat named mohammed's perception 2000 years ago? What's with these bumper sticker quotes of yours? You going to address any of the other things I brought up in my other posts? Or just what you feel like?
Living in a deforested environment has made me manic.
Muhammad (peace be upon him) lived a little over 1400 years ago not 2000 and to say that he was schizophrenic is one hell of a statement. You need proof to say that. He was the messenger of Allah, like Jesus and Moses and Abraham and many others who delivered this clear message to all of us. If you studied it more you would have more intellegent things to say about it. And as far as your earlier posts, when I said that God doesnt communicate with us on Every level I meant exactly what you said, Like , Yeah yeah, Wad up son?? I'm God. He doesnt do that obviously. So therefore there must be some sort of guidance for us to know what will bring us closer to the correct way, right? Or do we just go off our intuitions...all the time...I mean, we use our brains , yeah, but even a mechanic uses diagrams and engine schematics so he knows where each part goes and so forth. We don't just instinctively know everything or we wouldnt be as crackheaded out as we are in this world. We need guidance, and It doesnt come from some meditation session in a trendy yoga class with a yooshooguru named Yami. It comes from the prophets and messengers who come with proofs and evidences.
check out what the quran said about these things over 1400 years ago
Formation Of Iron
The Holy Quran : Miracle Of Miracles
The Lowest Part Of The Earth
The Miracle And Challenge Of The Qur'an
The Quraan On Astronomy
The Quran And Science
The Quran On Clouds
The Quran On Human Embryonic Developement
The Quran On Mountains
The Quran On Oceans And Seas
The Quran On The Cerebrum
The Quran On The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 03:58 AM SF, don't sneak up on me like that, man!
God is merciful to ALL his creation, and he doesnt burden a soul more than it can bear. So those Aborhiginee tribes will be tested according to their abilities , just like mentally retarded people and others who didnt receive the message properly.
People will naturally be skeptical, but doesn't he give most of us a long enough life to check it out? check the proof, Cross reference, The words in the Quran have never been changed since it was revealed. Also there are too many scientific miricles in the Quran Unlike many other scriptures whose predictions were disproved, the Quran has too many miricles and things that They were not aware of during the time of Muhammad
Also Allah laid down a challenge in the Qur’an to mankind in general and to the Arabs in particular: "And if you are in doubt concerning that which we have sent down to our slave (Muhammad) then produce a chapter like it, and call your supporters and helpers besides Allah, if you are truthful!" (Surah al-Baqarah 2:23)
So to disregard it is to disbeleive and to disbeleive is to be thrown into the hellfire for ever. And When I became a muslim I had a problem with this , because I said "why would God punish someone forever? So the reply was that only God knows that if he allowed them to live forever they would disbeleive in him forever. So which one of the blessings from your lord will you deny?
SF the animals will become dust, part of the earth.
Then why cant MAN be aloud to just become dust and return to the Earth if he aint up to Gods standard? Are we worse than an animal for not understanding Gods mind and what he wants for us? Why must God be the abusive father that tortures his children for not being perfect (or close enough to perfection)?
The scriptures tell us that we are not expected to be perfect, but then if we aren't we are punished to eternity in hell??? What the fuck is that???
Like we are saposed to read gods mind and know that one religion is right and the rest are all blasphamy!?!? When we have people from every religion telling us that theirs is right and the rest are wrong? We're saposed to just be smart enough to know which one is right and if we fuck up and choose the wrong one (and dedicate our life to the wrong faith thinking this is what we have to do to escape hell) then guess what... too bad! we go to hell anyways for beleiving the wrong religion??? What kind of a God is it that would take amusment out of throwing mice into a maze and not only rewarding the ones that make it through, but brutally torturing the ones that made a wrong turn and got lost???
Originally posted by SF1@Aug 8 2005, 05:20 AM
Then why cant MAN be aloud to just become dust and return to the Earth if he aint up to Gods standard? Are we worse than an animal for not understanding Gods mind and what he wants for us? Why must God be the abusive father that tortures his children for not being perfect (or close enough to perfection)?
The scriptures tell us that we are not expected to be perfect, but then if we aren't we are punished to eternity in hell??? What the fuck is that???
Like we are saposed to read gods mind and know that one religion is right and the rest are all blasphamy!?!? When we have people from every religion telling us that theirs is right and the rest are wrong? We're saposed to just be smart enough to know which one is right and if we fuck up and choose the wrong one (and dedicate our life to the wrong faith thinking this is what we have to do to escape hell) then guess what... too bad! we go to hell anyways for beleiving the wrong religion??? What kind of a God is it that would take amusment out of throwing mice into a maze and not only rewarding the ones that make it through, but brutally torturing the ones that made a wrong turn and got lost???
The reason why we can't just be returned back to dust is because the Animals were not blessed with intellect, they have instinct. We have intellect and instinct and we were preferred over all of the creation with that. Another misconception is that we are supposed to be perfect, we will never be perfect. We make mistakes all the time, but still we return to God for forgiveness for our mistakes to purify us, See heres the deal, Originally all worship was singled out for God and those people who worshipped God alone without worshipping Idols like men, stones, wood carvings, the sun, the moon the trees , whatever, were people who were following the right way. Over time many religions started popping up and it got very confusing. Thats one of the ways of the devil, confusion, he makes it seem as if it is all too much and so we just do whatever we feel like doing because all this God stuff is confusing, thats a smokescreen , bro. In reality, there is a way of life that is accepting to God and it is Islam. People are people and we all do wrong , no Muslim on the face of this earth is perfect , but heres where the wild card comes in...Every religion on the face of this earth teaches to worship an Idol except Islam. Christians worship Jesus,Buddhists worship the little fat statue, hundus worship the Cow, some of them worship rats and that crazy looking elephant with 15 arms. The new wave religions worship the earth. The Jews strip God of his Godlike qualities thus worshipping something that is'nt even God anymore. Only in Islam do you have this perfect God who doesn't need sleep or need to eat , who is merciful to his creation and sends messenger after messenger to teach them the truth, To single out all worship for God the true God , creator of the heavens and universe , who none is similar or comparable to. I personally, don't beleive that God throws people into hell for taking a wrong turn . I think he deliberately misgudes them due to a perversion in their own hearts that they follow. And if they did'nt follow that perversion, If they were sincere and looked deeper into the guidance, then they wouldve been guided. God is not unjust to his servants.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Why do I need proof to say he was schizophrenic? Why don't you need proof to say he wasn't?
And really, I was just trying to open a more interesting discussion about the role neurological disorders and conditions could have played in forming our world and its religions.
Quote:
So therefore there must be some sort of guidance for us to know what will bring us closer to the correct way, right?
Wrong. Just because actual divine dialogue is lacking doesn't mean that there is anything else.
I made it through 'the quran on iron" and then decided that shit was dumb.
Well, If there is no guidance then , there must be no afterlife either. Just dirt. because if there is some sort of afterlife, then there must be a road map on how to get there, It's just logic ...what if you were a courier and your boss told you go to 234 East armpit lane and deliver this package wouldnt you want to know how to get there? and what if your boss told you , Scram, punk, go deliver it and you never were given a map , no map existed, just find it or you don't get paid. Because that's what youre saying....I don't beleive in a God like that.
God is merciful and benevolent.
So you didnt do the homework, but you still came to class talking trash.......this time YOU get the F.
and as for your schitzo statement, in rules of debate the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.....so bring it chief!
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 12:01 AM Well, If there is no guidance then , there must be no afterlife either. Just dirt. because if there is some sort of afterlife, then there must be a road map on how to get there, It's just logic ...what if you were a courier and your boss told you go to 234 East armpit lane and deliver this package wouldnt you want to know how to get there? and what if your boss told you , Scram, punk, go deliver it and you never were given a map , no map existed, just find it or you don't get paid. Because that's what youre saying....I don't beleive in a God like that.
God is merciful and benevolent.
So you didnt do the homework, but you still came to class talking trash.......this time YOU get the F.
and as for your schitzo statement, in rules of debate the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.....so bring it chief!
The guidance was intuition, not scrupture. Maybe there isn't an afterlife. I've decided not to read any more of your analogies due to their being irrelevant....so skipping to "I don't beleive in a goat like that"..... I don't see how your belief has any bearing on reality. And the merciful benevolence is an opinion, or hope.
Like I said, I looked at the link you dropped, and decided it was bull shit. So I didn't fail, I dropped your shitty class.
Alright.... he thinks he's 'The Holy Prophet'. Shit would land him in therapy these days.
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 05:43 AM I personally, don't beleive that God throws people into hell for taking a wrong turn . I think he deliberately misgudes them due to a perversion in their own hearts that they follow. And if they did'nt follow that perversion, If they were sincere and looked deeper into the guidance, then they wouldve been guided. God is not unjust to his servants.
Then why does he create us with "perversions"???
And why (as you put it) does he "deliberately misguid" us to go to hell (that he created for us) for the perversions in our hearts when he created us with these perversions in our hearts??? And how are we sapose to "look deeper into his guidance" if he's "deliberately misguiding" us???Is it a sick joke???
I don't get it.
That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"
hinduism and buddhism preceeded greek philosophy
(Plato was around in 385
Buddha was born around 585 BC
Hinduism began sometime around 1500 BC)
I don't know what 'new wave religions' you are referring to, but to suggest that these religions lift moral repsonsibility from man is simply RIDICULOUS
1. Moral responsibility lies in the intent of action regarless of whether or
not there is a permanent soul.
2. Some one else will suffer. The goal is to have all sentient beings escape
from suffering. A profound altruism results, action for the sake of others
in a wide-ranging type of compassion for all living creatures including
those yet to be born.
3. Philosophical understanding and the popular feelings about karma are at
odds. The "common" folk easily tolerate such philosophical confusion
if you are not willing to show proper respect to other belief systems
rather than simply dismissing them with your incorrect assessments and judgements
any courier who creid to his company about not being able to find a delivery destination (armpit lane or otherwise) would get laughed out of the office
you seriously need to rethink your analogies if you expect to make an effective argument
Location: dunno, I can't see and the sound seems to e muffed by thighs
Status: Offline
08-08-2005, 01:46 PM
Quote:
That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"
hey, wait a minute. Isn't it "lifting responsibility off of man" to have right and wrong all mapped out for you by a being no one can get a hold of to question?
Originally posted by SF1+Aug 8 2005, 06:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF1 - Aug 8 2005, 06:22 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 05:43 AM I personally, don't beleive that God throws people into hell for taking a wrong turn . I think he deliberately misgudes them due to a perversion in their own hearts that they follow.*** And if they did'nt follow that perversion, If they were sincere and looked deeper into the guidance, then they wouldve been guided. God is not unjust to his servants.
Then why does he create us with "perversions"???
And why (as you put it) does he "deliberately misguid" us to go to hell (that he created for us) for the perversions in our hearts when he created us with these perversions in our hearts??? And how are we sapose to "look deeper into his guidance" if he's "deliberately misguiding" us???Is it a sick joke???
I don't get it.
We have a choice, And If we choose guidance, we will be guided, If we choose Misguidance, we will be misguided, right? sound logical? Except the fact that God has FULL knowledge beforehand who will choose what, because he is the creator and all knowledgeable. God doesnt misguide anyone who deserves guidance. It is only those people who chose to be misguided in the first place. He created the good and the bad, and the bad is a test for mankind, Just because we fall into the bad , we can't start blaming God for our own actions.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by bodice_ripper@Aug 8 2005, 01:46 PM
Quote:
That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"
hey, wait a minute. Isn't it "lifting responsibility off of man" to have right and wrong all mapped out for you by a being no one can get a hold of to question?
No , because once we know what it right and what is wrong, it is our Responsibility to do right. You want to question God? Seems arrogant to want to question God. Of course if a person needs more to know that what he beleives is right then study. To me A religion that says you can just die and come back as an eagle makes a person think he has no REAL responsibility, because , there is no REAL consequences.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by symbols@Aug 8 2005, 01:25 PM
hinduism and buddhism preceeded greek philosophy
(Plato was around in 385
Buddha was born around 585 BC
Hinduism began sometime around 1500 BC)
I understand that Hinduism and Buddhism preceded greek philosophy, It was this idea that God is everything and is a part of everything that I was referring to. This idea came from greek philosophy and spilled over into the existing Hindu and Buhhdist faiths. It even affected some muslims. And this is an idea that Muslims totally reject. One of the islamic scholars mentioned that the beleif that God is everywhere and is everything is possibly one of the worst discriptions that could be given to God ever, because since all of the prophets and messengers taught the people that God was one god and he was unique in all of his attributes, this description of God being everything made God like his creation, but he is far Above being like his creation.
And symbols, part of a muslims faith is to dismiss other beleif systems , to reject that God is a peice of crap or a man or a cow or stone or a tree, If you have to shut this thread down because I won't accept that God is a peice of crap or floating around in the sewer somewhere , then so be it, Islam will still be the fastest growing religion with or without your censorship.
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Oh, and symbols, just an obsevation, Why is it that when I mention that hinduism and buddhism were affected by the ideas of Greek philosophy and the idea that God is everywhere, you threaten to Shut down my "madrassa" But when a certain person here calls Muhammad (a messenger of GOD) a schitzophrenic , hey no problemo, So this disrespect thing applies to every beleif system except Islam? how does that work?
"if you don't busy your self with the truth, your self will busy you with the lies" -Ibn Al Qayyum
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 10:55 PM #1 If we dont drink-we die
#2 If we dont eat -we die
#3 If we dont sleep- well I'm not sure what happens after the too tired to think phase but i'm sure it isnt pretty.
#4 If we get sick we do all types of imperfect actions such as Puke,
get diarheaa, etc etc.
#5 We cant see the future
#6 we die
God doesnt need drink
God doesnt need food
God doesnt need to sleep
God doesnt get sick
God sees all and hears all
God doesnt die
we exist. You seem to imply that God is the inverse of us. Therefore.....
dawood
you started a topic supposedly about discussion
then you admit that it is part of your faith to dismiss other belief systems
so which is it?
you want to discuss?
or you want to prove you are right?
if you understood the inception of buddhism and hinduism, you would know that greek philosophy did not influence them very well ..
haha..
Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions.
Just as Buddhism rejects the notion of a Supreme God it also rejects the notion of an abstract God-principle operating in the universe. The notion of Brahman (in the neuter) is not discussed at all in the Buddhist texts, and even in India it may well be a post-Buddhist development resulting from the attempt to reconcile the belief in God(s) with the powerful critique of the Buddha. It is therefore the attitude of Buddhism to the notion of a supreme personal God animating the Universe that we must consider.
From the Buddhist standpoint the classic theistic statement that "God created man in his (i.e. God's) image" has actually to be reversed. It is man who has created God in his (i.e. man's) image! And as man's own image changes so does that of his God. Thus in the present time with the rise of feminism there is an attempt to change the gender of God from a man to a woman (or perhaps even to a neuter). To liberate himself mankind has to shed his delusions, and one of these is the existence of God.
...there is a fundamental incompatibility between the notion of God and basic Buddhist principles. We have already mentioned that God cannot be reconciled with the Buddhist notion of causality, which is contained in the theory of "dependent origination" which is one of the discoveries of the Buddha during his enlightenment. Certainly nothing like this theory has been propounded prior to the Buddha.
LEARN!!!
as far as the madrassa comment, your rhetoric knows no bounds
whether it be in this thread or another
no one here is spouting off quotes from their prophets, except you
and yeah, i think it's ok for people to make general comments against religions or their prophets
but when you start putting down opinion, you should have the facts right about other religions
i made the comment about respect
because you are simply definiing these religions as you wish
for someone who claims to be devout, maybe you should learn more about these other religions before you start drawing them into your argument
as far as my own opinion,
religion is a load of crap
i think it's pretty damn funny that these suicide bombers think they get to go to heaven
let's not forget that 'jihad' is one of the little talked about central tenets of islam
i wish i knew the reaction of those in the struggle when they find out there is no allah
Location: dunno, I can't see and the sound seems to e muffed by thighs
Status: Offline
08-08-2005, 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dawood@Aug 8 2005, 01:58 PM
No , because once we know what it right and what is wrong, it is our Responsibility to do right. You want to question God? Seems arrogant to want to question God. Of course if a person needs more to know that what he beleives is right then study. To me A religion that says you can just die and come back as an eagle makes a person think he has no REAL responsibility, because , there is no REAL consequences.
No, questioning god is only arrogant if he exists, which I don't happen to believe is the case, at least not in the threatening, patriarchal overseer sense. I think its arrogant to believe that any human being has the faintest chance of understanding what's going on in the Universe. Its my responisbilty as a sentient being to make decisions about how to behave, based on my experience. I totally respect if others would prefer to just rely on the Ethics For Dummies holy book approach, groovy. But there ain't nothing but argument by assertion in this thread.....You can't prove it, I can't prove it, why argue about it?
Originally posted by RumPuncher+Aug 8 2005, 11:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RumPuncher - Aug 8 2005, 11:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Aug 7 2005, 10:55 PM #1 If we dont drink-we die
#2 If we dont eat -we die
#3 If we dont sleep- well I'm not sure what happens after the too tired to think phase but i'm sure it isnt pretty.
#4 If we get sick we do all types of imperfect actions such as Puke,
get diarheaa, etc etc.
#5 We cant see the future
#6 we die
God doesnt need drink
God doesnt need food
God doesnt need to sleep
God doesnt get sick
God sees all and hears all
God doesnt die
we exist. You seem to imply that God is the inverse of us. Therefore.....
Originally posted by Dawood+Aug 7 2005, 10:14 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dawood - Aug 7 2005, 10:14 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-casekonly@Aug 8 2005, 12:33 AM to me, god is all that we see and hear. anything and everything is a piece of god. being closer to who we are is being closer to 'it'.
I have spent a LOT of time contemplating and studying the nature of God and In my humble opinion there is a flaw in that "God is everything theory" I used to beleive that too, But then look at a peice of doo-doo floating and a toilet and say to yourself "is this God'?
God , the creator is faaaaaaaar removed from All imperfections in my view. He is The most high. The one who is in need of nothing.
That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"
Of course We can keep discussing this...I can talk about this for years.
i agree with mammero about this. the conditioning has made you think that fecal matter is utterly disgusting, but it helps us (as well as other physical matter on this planet) grow. is that not the nature of god?
i would like to discuss this whole 'flock' phenomenon a little more as the page grows.
also: how evolution can tie in with religion. science, mathematics, and religion are very closely related in my humble opinion.
ok, i've got more on this thread to read. just replied after reading your post and mammero's.
12oz subgenius crew
<vomit crew>
throw-up your set.
08-08-2005, 03:58 AM
