[lord_casek]

“In September or October there will be a hyped up outbreak of the swine flu which they’ll say is as bad as the bubonic plague to scare the bed-wetters to vote for healthcare reform,” said Mr Armey. “That is the only way they can push something on to the American people that the American people don’t want.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a6a34fa8-8...nclick_check=1

[x5v1s]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

wait are people getting upset because a nurse is going to be coming round to check on the baby in the few months following birth - where is the problem there, some new mothers find it hard handling a new child and aren't schooled on how to raise a child. When my son was born we had a health visitor come round, they check the child's weight and progression and ensure the baby is healthy - if a parent isn't caring properly for the child they offer advice, if the child continually gets treated poorly they maybe social services get involved - I see no problem with this at all, the only people that need to worry about that are BAD parents

it can also help a mother if she is suffering from post natal depression and is too scared/embarrassed to ask for advice

CRADEL TO GRAVE ..SELL IT LORD CASEK ....
rivateeye:" class="inlineimg" />
SELL US ALL OUT OF OUR PERSONAL CHOICES ..BAD PARENTS TOO HAVE FREEDOM ..FREEDOM TO MAKE MISTAKES AND BE PUNISHED IF NEED BE ...HMM BIG BROTHER ADVOCATE ARE YOU ?

[Decyferon]

No I'm not a Big Brother advocate, I'm also not delusion about support being offered to new parents, I would rather a bad parent be identified and helped rather than punished once things have gone too far and a child has suffered

I understand Americans have been brought up with this delusional fear of the commies and therefore any kind of socialist ideal, or a society that actually supports its occupants is a terrible thing - I'm just not that narrowminded

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

No I'm not a Big Brother advocate, I'm also not delusion about support being offered to new parents, I would rather a bad parent be identified and helped rather than punished once things have gone too far and a child has suffered

I understand Americans have been brought up with this delusional fear of the commies and therefore any kind of socialist ideal, or a society that actually supports its occupants is a terrible thing - I'm just not that narrowminded

Who defines "bad parenting"? The state? I don't want the state telling me shit about parenting. They can eat a dick sandwich.

[Decyferon]

No, common sense determines bad parenting, if the child is suffering then that is bad parenting, if a child is being neglected or beaten then that is bad parenting, I'm not supporting a nanny state believe me I think the government doesn't have the right to determine how I live my life and they don't determine how I live my life in the UK anymore than the US government determines how you live your life

but someone needs to stand up and defend children that are in bad situations because they sure as hell cannot do it themselves, and who else other than the state is going to do that or have the power to be able to do that, ultimately these cases are dealt with in courts where the public is the jury and decide on the cases

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

No, common sense determines bad parenting, if the child is suffering then that is bad parenting, if a child is being neglected or beaten then that is bad parenting, I'm not supporting a nanny state believe me I think the government doesn't have the right to determine how I live my life and they don't determine how I live my life in the UK anymore than the US government determines how you live your life

but someone needs to stand up and defend children that are in bad situations because they sure as hell cannot do it themselves, and who else other than the state is going to do that or have the power to be able to do that, ultimately these cases are dealt with in courts where the public is the jury and decide on the cases

Child molesters get into CPS and those types of jobs. They want to molest and abuse kids.
No way in hell is some child molester telling me what to do with my kids or trying to take them away.

I can pull many sources if you would like.

[Mainframe]

^

[Decyferon]

Casek - yes i agree not everything is perfect, but to think this sort of scheme is being introduced to dictate how you live you life is incorrect, it is there to offer support and advice - not everything that happens in the government is a terrible thing, sometimes they do try and offer things to help

Ok sometimes molesters/child abusers have gotten into these positions but that is the exception not the rule, I personally have met plenty of people who work with social services and they are doing that job because it really matters to them and they care for the well fair of the children

you know I'm hardly a great advocate of governement and I do not trust politicians as far as I can throw them, but I have first hand seen then scheme in use in the UK and it is very helpful to new parent so i am talking about my experience, I also would rather have prevention of abuse of children rather than punishment in retrospect once the damage is done

[christo-f]

Holy shit, I had some down time at work today and thought I'd have a read. Kind of wish I didn't now.

Seriously, a lot of you guys here have got to check yourselves. Your original intents may be fine but you polarise yourself to extremes by making massive assumptions (usually encouraged by very questionable information from dubious sources) and build on those assumptions with more assumptions.

I could not be bothered going through and pointing out the massive amount of faulty reasoning here and baseless assumptions, suffice to say that I'm shocked at how far many of you go with your guess work and tendencies to jump towards the most extreme conclusions possible because it supports your prejudices or frame of mind to do so.

Seriously, I know I'm going to be called lefty and some other unintelligent shit or be told I'm not aware of what's going on, yadda yadda yadda. But you guys need to take ten big fucking paces back and take a deep breathe because the shit some of you are coming up with is more than paranoid, it's just fucking ridiculous.


At last glance I'd even argue that some of you are supporting a parent's right to abuse a child, that's how far you seem to have gone in your frenzied group think here.

/end dumbfounded rant.

[Mainframe]

^ Well said. I think that's what keeps most people on this forum out of crossfire. It's actually kind of fascinating to me.

[christo-f]

PS, I'm not an Obama supporter of hater, I really don't care.

I'm looking simply at the method of reasoning that is taking place on this issue.

[Decyferon]

Well said Christo - managing to make my point more eloquantly than I can lol

[lord_casek]

Supporter of child abuse? Really? Really?
That is Fox News tactics. "Why do you hate America, Sir?"



It seems like dems and Europeans are all down for the nanny state.
This is not surprising.

[Decyferon]

I think what he meant is (and this is just my opinion) intervention should come at the earliest stage when a child is being abused/neglected by it's parents, it should not come down to when things have gone too far and the child has seriously suffered. A parent does not have the right to raise their child badly (and I mean leaving them alone, not feeding them properly, not educating them, using drugs around the child etc etc common sense things)

From what I have read of this scheme it is to provide support and advice to parents, not to try and take over the way the parent's raise their child, I don't see this as a nanny state but more for an education for new parents, some of us find being a parent easy, others don't and require support, it isn't like you or I will go round offering support to them and it is something that requires funding to do and that funding has to come from the government because who else will provide the money to finance such schemes

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I think what he meant is (and this is just my opinion) intervention should come at the earliest stage when a child is being abused/neglected by it's parents, it should not come down to when things have gone too far and the child has seriously suffered. A parent does not have the right to raise their child badly (and I mean leaving them alone, not feeding them properly, not educating them, using drugs around the child etc etc common sense things)

From what I have read of this scheme it is to provide support and advice to parents, not to try and take over the way the parent's raise their child, I don't see this as a nanny state but more for an education for new parents, some of us find being a parent easy, others don't and require support, it isn't like you or I will go round offering support to them and it is something that requires funding to do and that funding has to come from the government because who else will provide the money to finance such schemes

You don't seem to understand, the state are the abusers.


Homeland Security official arrested in child sex sting

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/04/ho...est/index.html


A Skeleton in Barney's Closet

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...958598,00.html



The Story of the CIA's "Finders" Abduction Operation

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/ciadrugsabusemurder.shtml


Bad Judges
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opini...__No_deal.html

[Decyferon]

Well obviously America is just a stupidly fucked up place and I don't see why anyone lives there if everything is so bad, I am glad of the support systems here in the UK and 99% of the time it works fine, France have it even better in the first few months following the birth of a child you actually have someone who comes and helps to clean the house.

In the UK the health visitor is a midwife, someone that has helped all through the birth process and 99% of these are women, they are just checking everything is fine, paedophiles are men in the vast majority of cases and the health visitor is employed by the health service not social services

I still believe that, while not perfect, a lot of people are trying to make a difference and not every single person is an abuser and molestor, and people do genuinely care for the wellbeing of people who are suffering

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

Well obviously America is just a stupidly fucked up place and I don't see why anyone lives there if everything is so bad, I am glad of the support systems here in the UK and 99% of the time it works fine, France have it even better in the first few months following the birth of a child you actually have someone who comes and helps to clean the house.

In the UK the health visitor is a midwife, someone that has helped all through the birth process and 99% of these are women, they are just checking everything is fine, paedophiles are men in the vast majority of cases and the health visitor is employed by the health service not social services

I still believe that, while not perfect, a lot of people are trying to make a difference and not every single person is an abuser and molestor, and people do genuinely care for the wellbeing of people who are suffering

One day you'll understand that not everyone is nice and really doesn't care.
I learned that recently when my friend died. Hospice was coming in and the nurse kept
suggesting that the daughter overdose her father. While some may look at this as merciful, I see it as murder. Plain and simple.

[Decyferon]

I do understand that not everyone is nice and caring, but on the flipside of that not everyone is mean, cruel and an abuser, it is the nature of humanity some people are good others aren't

assissted suicide is a different subject, but your friend obviously went through a horrible situation and should never have been put in that situation, the only perosn that has the right to determine when they die is the person who is suffering

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I do understand that not everyone is nice and caring, but on the flipside of that not everyone is mean, cruel and an abuser, it is the nature of humanity some people are good others aren't

assissted suicide is a different subject, but your friend obviously went through a horrible situation and should never have been put in that situation, the only perosn that has the right to determine when they die is the person who is suffering

I know that not all are bad/cruel. The government seems to always get the worst, though.
People who like the power to take children away, etc.

As for my friend, I agree. It wasn't easy watching him die, but it was much harder to think of some nurse suggesting his daughter OD him before his time.

[christo-f]

Originally Posted by lord_casek (View Original Post)

Child molesters get into CPS and those types of jobs. They want to molest and abuse kids.
No way in hell is some child molester telling me what to do with my kids or trying to take them away.

I can pull many sources if you would like.

Supporter of child abuse? Really? Really?
That is Fox News tactics. "Why do you hate America, Sir?"

Haha, "deny, counter accuse!!".

Fox news tactics huh?

CPS has had kiddy fiddlers infiltrate their ranks.

However, you've jumped straight on the "No way in hell, not on my watch buddy, don't fuck with the righteous" game plan here as if they all have fangs and forked tails. Sounds very similar to "Muslims are terrorists. Barrak HUSSEIN obama, etc.".

You know what, schools have had rock spiders get jobs too, better not send your kid there. Some nurses, male and female have been found to be abusers, hospital is out too. There's even pedos found in local neighbourhoods..., well, no neighbours for you!

See what I'm saying, you've taken the most extreme position possible; CPS has had child abusers found in their ranks, therefore none of them are to be trusted because they will probably be child molesters that want to take your baby away. Tell me, do you think a beaten, malnourished child should be removed from their current carer or would that be nanny state stuff?


I also laugh at the nanny state bit. how the fuck does some one coming around and helping you get through a hard period (first time mothers) in nursing a baby result in a fucking nanny (aside from the obvious pun) state??!! I'd say that the vast majority of carers help with a bit of nappy washing, give tips on how to make breast feeding more comfortable, weigh the child and stick a thermometer in their bum. How on earth is that so threatening to you?! They help keep your child healthy with simple medical check ups! Sounds like a great service to me!!

Fucking meals on wheels, red cross, salvation army, red crescent, volunteer fire brigade!! Fucking nanny me around!!! Fucking socialists!!

Seriously man, you are so extreme with every perspective you take. Do you think that is rational to be so extreme in your views? Nothing wrong with being protective and even a little suspicious but to be so totally polarised in that direction doesn't seem to fit with common sense.

[angelofdeath]

i doubt casek is condemning voluntary organizations like the red cross, meals on wheels or the salvation army.

im not going to argue about whether malnourished or badly abused children should be taken into state custody, but i would like to point out that the standards in these groups is not what you think it is.
the state often invokes some 'right' to steal kids from their parents in the absence of any evidence of mistreatment. 'evidence' is often proven to be concocted. home schoolers are targeted for instance. the state thinks that kids are supposed to be indoctrinated in state worship, and some home schoolers are against this. there is no abuse, kiddy fiddling, or starvation going on. is this justified? should kids be kidnapped from their parents because the state doesnt like how these kids are raised? that is the 'extreme' perspective i have on this issue.

fine. maybe it started out with saving babies in abusive situations, but where is it going? no one would of imagined years ago kids could be taken from their parents because their parents have certain religious views. they try to do this all the time and sometimes CPS succeeds. but since there is a growing nanny state over concerns of obesity, trans fat, smoking, etc, it only goes to reason that soon enough CPS will be claiming a right to take a child out of an 'abusive, obese society in the household.' absent any physical abuse (and im not talking about a spanking) CPS should have no place.

it would not surprise me within the next hundred years that the hillary clintonista-esque sentiment that it 'takes a village' to raise a child, will be put into lawful force. literally.

you could just as easily turn your logic around on some of your own issues. you make some good points, but lets apply your logic of...'you would not refuse to go to a hospital because a few nurses are incompetent.' one could also say, that just because a fraction of a half of a percent of gun owners goes nuts and shoots a bunch of innocent people, we shouldnt blame the guns and take away everyones rights. this is not meant to start a debate on guns, merely to show your logic and how you seem to be a touch hypocritical.

[lord_casek]

AOD said it. I'm also saying "no way in hell is anyone else going to tell me how to raise my children".

[Mainframe]

Originally Posted by christo-f (View Original Post)

Seriously man, you are so extreme with every perspective you take. Do you think that is rational to be so extreme in your views? Nothing wrong with being protective and even a little suspicious but to be so totally polarised in that direction doesn't seem to fit with common sense.

I've tried to have a reasoned debate with casek in crossfire. This is what happens: he sends me nega-props telling me to "get banned." Then, without directly responding to my argument, he reiterates his own opinion while questioning my humanity and common sense. Fox news tactics all the way. Then there might be a few more articles of questionable relevance thrown in. He has no capacity to consider other opinions or take criticism seriously. I can't get mad at it though, because I get the feeling dude has some serious psychological issues. Reading threads in crossfire is like a clinic on psychotic delusions. Actually a glance at the wikipedia article on delusions pegs it very accurately:

Although non-specific concepts of madness have been around for several thousand years, the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his 1917 book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:

* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

There you go. It's fascinating.

[Decyferon]

to me no one is telling you how to raise your children tho Casek, like I said in the UK it is merely a mid wife who comes round to make sure mother and child are fine, the system works very well here in the UK and has done for many many many years.

AOD's point about children being taken away without evidence is not true of the system in the UK, if anything sometimes children are not taken into care when they should be because of lack of evidence, social services not doing their job properly. Look at the recent baby P case in the UK.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5140511.ece

Again I am only commenting on how things work in the UK because obviously that is my experience!

I do agree with Christo's comment about the extreme stance taken on this but as you know I do enjoy these debates and do appreciate your view points - I know it is good to not be too trustful but I do find sometimes that yourself and AOD are sometimes too untrusting and I suppose that is what makes these debates so much fun lol

everyone knows my viewpoint on the guns debate also

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Mainframe (View Original Post)

I've tried to have a reasoned debate with casek in crossfire. This is what happens: he sends me nega-props telling me to "get banned." Then, without directly responding to my argument, he reiterates his own opinion while questioning my humanity and common sense. Fox news tactics all the way. Then there might be a few more articles of questionable relevance thrown in. He has no capacity to consider other opinions or take criticism seriously. I can't get mad at it though, because I get the feeling dude has some serious psychological issues. Reading threads in crossfire is like a clinic on psychotic delusions. Actually a glance at the wikipedia article on delusions pegs it very accurately:



There you go. It's fascinating.

Stop trolling with the dumb tin foil hat pics and stupid comments and maybe I would converse with you like a normal human. You became irrelevant once the trolling started.

Don't get me wrong, when I close this window (browser), I don't walk away cursing any of you guys that I disagree with. I simply walk away and carry on with my life. You should do the same instead of picking some stupid tinfoil hat Simpsons image from google search and trolling thread after thread. Do I do that to you?