Handselecta

The most recent post by Handselecta was 8 hours, 23 minutes ago…

Handselecta
Handselecta

New York, New York

Encouraged by Mare’s last post and Dash 167’s Richard Dawkins-post from last week I felt the need to continue the discussion Dash started. Continue the dialogue, if you will. Thanks for the encouragement, Mare.

Although I (like many of us, I assume) usually shy away from discussions that we can assume will quickly devolve to name calling as we retreat to our respective cultural ghettos and pat ourselves on the back for believing the right things, or knowing the truths others deny. But I am more of a libertarian by nature, which means I am used to being a liberal in conservative company and a conservative in liberal company more often than not. But the continued dialogue is absolutely necessary.

As luck would have it, the stars were aligned and I ended up netflixing the Ben Stein documentary EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED about 24 hours after watching the Dawkin’s documentary. Neither of which are easy to watch if you are of opposing views, by the way.

Full disclosure. I am an artist, not a scientist and I don’t even remember 10th grade biology. But the points brought up by both sides of the argument in these videos seem more philosophic at their core than scientific. Having to do with how the data is interpeted. I am also a Christian, Pauline and reformed in my theology, more or less a Calvinist (as much as I understood from reading The Institutes). And I have never thought that belief in Darwinian evolution threatened my faith in the slightest.

The thing that frightened me so much about Dawkins delivery is that he seems to imply that the government state should practically take children from parents whom have beliefs that he finds offensive. Thats a lot of people to control, and indoctrinate correctly. In no way do I think that the story of Genesis should be taught in science text books. But there is a big gap between the nuts on the religious right and Dawkin’s desire to have a world wide singularly acceptable education for all children, approved by him.

A few counter points to look for are:
-Intelligent Design is NOT the beleif in the literal 6 day Creationism of Genesis.
-Political, scientific and professional freedom are all the main point and necessary to forge forward within the scientific establishment.
-The historic progression of Darwin’s theories eventually lead to organized eugenics that gave the world, class based birth control, and in its extreme, naziism.

Beware the sound of one hand clapping. There are two sides to every story (at least). Stay open to the dialogue. We don’t have to have it all worked out. Lets work it out together.

Critical and diverse discussion welcome. But Trolls will be deleted immediately.

Playlist:
http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?pi=0&ps=20&sf=&sa=0&sq=&dm=0&p=1577E215AECEA94E
Part 1 of 11:

11/11 - And the Dawkins interview:

 

Posted by Handselecta on February 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM

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6 Comments

The latest comment was posted 8 months, 3 weeks ago…

Will Carpio wrote… Comment #1 posted on February 24, 2009 at 02:47 AM

I like this.
Haven’t watched the vids but I will and i’d love to talk about about this.
I’m actually reading Dawkin’s God Delusion so you know where I stand on this.
Intelligent design is creationism repackaged.
I can’t ever back my stance as firmly and eloquently as you have with your above intro post so just watch this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

“Intelligent Design On Trial”.  It shits on intelligent design and I learned quite a bit more than I new about Darwinian evolution from it.

Wu-Tang Forever.
William

Handselecta wrote… Comment #2 posted on February 24, 2009 at 10:30 AM

I knew I could count on you, Will. Always reading Scientific American. I know this is a subject of Interest for you.

What do you think of “The God Delusion?” Far into it yet?

A couple years ago I was reading The Beginners Guide to the Construction of The Universe, which in no way touches on any of this issue directly, but its basically a book that looks at mathematics found in nature. Interesting as a side note.
http://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Guide-Constructing-Universe-Mathematical/dp/product-description/0060926716

The Pharaoh of 145th Street wrote… Comment #3 posted on February 24, 2009 at 04:42 PM

Handselecta,
Good Post.

I actually posted that video a long time ago before the 12Oz relaunch so Im going to watch this and then watch what I posted again to refresh my memory before I really comment.

Im not a scientist either and I’m not partial to darwinism or any “ism”, but I did grow up in catholic school till the 6th grade and I can tell you that I probably believed in Santa Claus longer than I believed in “god”.

In the meantime I will leave you with a quote to ponder on…

“There is a condescension from the universe to the mind of man, and that is where people see god”.

Handselecta wrote… Comment #4 posted on February 25, 2009 at 12:09 AM

Pharaoh,

Interested to hear what you’re thinking.

Regarding your quote. I read that as meaning the author believes that the Universe must have some (forgive the inarticulate analogy) personality or intelligence beyond man’s comprehension, and in its (The Universes) condescension to be understood by man, we have labeled it god?

Interesting. If I understood that correctly, it would imply that the authors world-view would be close to a belief in an energy or impersonal god. But still believes in some creative force behind everything.

Thanks for the feedback.

The Pharaoh of 145th Street wrote… Comment #5 posted on February 25, 2009 at 03:56 PM

Handselcta,

After watching both, I must say that I still consider the Dawkins doc to be on point.

Im not quite sure what part of his view on protecting children from indoctrination you found disturbing.  I personlly agree with him that no child should be subjected to it’s parents beliefs. If religion is of interest to that child at all, why not let them learn about it objectively and make an educated choice later in life, without bias or pressure from the family and peers.

As for the Ben Stein doc, I pretty much found it to be sensationalist propaganda. What all these dudes whining about? Evolution is taught in schools because it a science and Intelligent Design isn’t because its not a science, simple as that.

So what if evolution is on NatGeo or the Science Chanel? Why NOT let people get a taste of it? There are enough religious shows to balance things out, and after all, how many generations now have fallen victim to spiritual genocide on tv courtesy of Hollywood’s Cecil B. Demille??

Images shape our reality and i think people deserve to have their reality shaped by evidence, not fiction.

Every advocate of ID comes off mad paranoid that if kids study darwin, then they will not choose religion, but i dont remember ever being told in school that evolution was a fact, just that it was a damn good theory. Personally, it s something that has never influenced me in my choices regarding faith, as I mentioned before, I was already disgusted with religion, at least catholicism LONG before I ever heard of evolution.

Religion has had a strangle hold on education, power, politics and all aspects of society, for oh, say a few THOUSAND years now, so god forbid (pun intended) that as of a louzy couple of hundred years ago, people scientifically explore an alternate theory that actually makes sense and more and more continues to be proven legit.

Evolution is fine in the science class where it belongs and ID can be taught in an Anthropology class or Comparative Theology class where it belongs. Surely there will be a book with a chapter on the creation myths of different cultures and this one can properly categorized as the particular creation myth of the judeo-christian faith.

The fact that the “Big 3” religions have sought to carnalize their myths, doesnt make them any more real than any roman greek or egyptian allegories or than a disney cartoon for that matter.


I watched Will’s link to the NOVA doc and found it to be the most well executed and informative one of the 3.

I also peeped your link to the “Golden Ratio” book and actually have a few books on the subject myself. In my opinion, THAT is one of the mysteries that really tells it all.

With regards to my quote,...

“Man”, in his vast ignorance of the unfathomable, needed a pat on the back, and therefore conveniently created god in his own image.


~> Belief in an energy? Like the force in star wars? Sure, why not. Just no need to put a face and a name to it and then run out and force that belief on the masses.

Anyway, this was cool.
Peace

Handselecta wrote… Comment #6 posted on February 26, 2009 at 11:47 AM

Pharaoh,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

There are a lot of thoughts in there. And I started writing out responses to each point, but decided against it.

My main point and concern (And I believe Ben Stein’s as well) was the issue of freedom. Whether it is the freedom of a biologist to say they believe they can see the hand of God in the process of Evolution and in the evidence of the beginning of life. Or (in refernce to the Dawkins documentary) the freedom of parents to raise children with their own values and beliefs. Beliefs being the more contentious of the two I suppose.

In our current post-enlightenment period, we treat judging other peoples values as a taboo, unless it is a value that claims some superiority, ie: racism. Which is why you are not alone in your outrage over the atrocities committed in the names of God(s) over the course of history. But we all have values inherent. Dawkins start with his science instead of his faith. Thats fine. But his desire to have such an oppressive view of religious people is dangerous.

I also liked a lot of the Nova doc. I wholeheartedly agree with the sound bites of Robert Pennock, and Ken Miller.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/defi-pennock01.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/defi-pennock02.html

I liked your suggestion of Comparative Origin myths in anthropology class, etc. Raising those questions in adjoining classes. I am in agreement. I would like to see all education more holistic, unifying the subjects. That is something that I only got later in life, pursuing design as a career.

I think we are both in agreement that forcing things on the masses is the bigger problem. Which is what I found so offensive about Dawkins statements about OTHER PEOPLE’s children.

For the religion portion of your post I’ll refrain from any response, until we can do it in person over many many beers. I do enjoy those conversations, but have no desire to convince anyone of anything and the internet is not as good a medium for sharing stories of such depth.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
Christian
Handselecta

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